Philosophy of Class Design: Templar Houses & Mobility

tinythinker · May 2018

Starting this thread so that there can be more focused discussion and not have it tied to a PTS thread that will get lost when the patch hits live. Still asking for subforums under this one for each class to have more sustainable and focuses discussions that are easier to find and sort through for both devs and players.

"Do we defend our house, make it a mobile home, or abandon it for something else?"

If you play a Templar, share your thoughts on how the house idea can be improved or what it can be replaced with. Mobility and effective CC are common themes when this topic comes up for Templars, but other critcisms or solutions regarding the house-style logic of Templar design are welcome. By all means copy-paste rather than type everything over if you've discussed this in the occasional all-inclusive Templar megathreads that pop up from time to time. Stamplar, Magplar, and Hybrid perspectives welcomed and encouraged.

Anything to do with consistency of class skills and their interaction affecting movement or standing your ground in relation to PvP or PvE combat is on topic so fire away.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2018

I'm on-board with the house design if it ever comes to fruition, but it needs to:

1. Give templars a compelling advantage when fighting from their house
2. Give opponents a disadvantage when entering the house.

Currently, the "house" is a purge, mild HoT, and an armor buff (with secondary buffs or resource return. And a mild AOE snare (in a game that has snares attached to 1/4 of every skill for free anyway).

There's nothing in the kit that makes it a disadvantage for enemies to come to my house, and no real reason for me to stay in it. I have to recast Ritual pretty regularly anyway for the purge effect. The armor buff is the same damn buff every class gets and doesn't justify staying put.

There's just no house except for in the metaphor. It's bizarre.

Things that *might* work (some or all of these are likely broken to hell):

1. make the snare get worse as you get closer to the center of the ritual ring. Make it pretty debilitating up close. That would possibly keep people "out," but the game is already snare-heavy (and it would just encourage gap closing then dropping the ritual to throw out monster snares on enemies/enemy groups).
2. Some kind of unique damage buff while you are standing in both Focus and Ritual: i.e. if you take the time to build the house (2 stationary casts) and stay in it (zero duration outside of the double circles) you become fearsome. This would justify staying put in the house, but would likely be cheese on keep defenses and whatnot.
3. Inverse of the above: make enemies standing inside of rune focus and ritual do less damage (minor maim or some nonsense).
4. Actually make the ground-based skills strong enough in their own right to justify having your class built around needing to spend 2 GCDs rebuffing every time they move. This would probably require reverting the "buffs last x seconds outside the ring" change.

...but ultimately, a big part of the problem is that the game has moved towards mobility, LOS, and breaking/reengaging as primary tactics. Even if the house "worked," how does that help you when 3/4 of small group fights revolve around moving constantly around terrain? Or when solo fights typically involve making sweet, sweet love to a tree? Or when large group fights are all about flexing an enemy line and moving fluidly from bomb to bomb? If the only way my class "works" is in my stationary house, do I just smile and wave at every single medium armor user? Does mistform/streak/shadow image suddenly hardcounter my entire class?

casparian · May 2018

In talking about the Templar house, I think it's useful to start by comparing it to existing houses in the game.

Let's start with an example of an effective "house" that already exists: magicka Dragonknights'. If you get within close range of a magDK (5-8 meters), they can:
- CC you with an unblockable, undodgeable stun
- snare you
- root you
- apply Minor Maim to you
- activate their most powerful sources of self-defense (multiple passive heals, all of which require hitting enemies in melee range)

But just as important, magDKs also punish you for being outside their house (by reflecting your ranged attacks). Fighting a magDK forces you to choose between fighting on their turf and risking your attacks being reflected back at you.

So we can summarize: the magDK house comprises four main elements: effective CC, enemy debuffs, self-defenses, and punishment for staying at range.

Templars have none of this on what people think of as their main "house" skills (Ritual and Rune). (Well, there is a small snare on Ritual, but that's so inconsequential that we can ignore it.) Instead, all of it is combined into one ranged skill: Total Dark. Now it's unusual to think of Total Dark as Templars' main "house-building" skill. Most people would point to Rune and Ritual as our house. That's why it's instructive to start by asking looking at an actually effective house that already exists in the game. As we can see from that example, an effective house isn't about self-buffs. It's about controlling and punishing enemies. Total Dark is the skill that magplars have for that.

The problem with Total Dark is the way this skill debuffs the enemy, the way in which it functions as a CC, the way in which it defends the Templar, and the way in which it punishes the enemy for using ranged (i.e., direct damage projectile) skills are all one and the same thing: this skill forces the enemy to choose between losing a GCD or damaging themselves/healing the Templar. That's it. That's the way in which it functions as a CC, the way in which it functions to debuff the enemy, the way in which it provides the Templar a source of self-defense, and the way in which it functions to punish enemies for being at range.

The problem should be obvious: the foundation of Templars' house is a single skill, meaning it can be torn down by a single action (a simple CC break). MagDKs' house, on the other hand, rests on multiple skills, meaning it has a broad foundation that can't be torn down in a single action or single GCD. Tear down one beam(by rolling out of the roots, for example) and the rest of the house still stands. Templars only have the one beam.

In order to give Templars an actual house, they need to be given forms of enemy control, enemy debuffing, more powerful self-defense mechanisms (whether that be in the form of healing or something else), and a way to punish enemies for avoiding the house that isn't just identical to the first three items. As I see it, there are four basic options for doing this:
- Change Total Dark so that not all of its effects can be removed in a single global cooldown. One way to do this would be to add a root to it, so that enemies would have to choosing between rolling to cleanse the root or CC-breaking to get out of the bubble while remaining rooted. (@Minno has suggested this a few times.) Alternatively, there could be a lingering effect like a DOT or a lingering HOT on the Templar if the enemy breaks free of the bubble.
- Add more passive healing. Templars need more than Total Dark and the minor HOT from Ritual in order for their house to defend them as well as magDKs' house does. Next patch, magDKs' house will give them passive healing (i.e., healing they can activate while remaining on the offensive) from six separate sources (Shattering Rocks, Flame Lash, Burning Embers, Deep Breath, Cauterize, and Battle Roar). In other words, the magDK house is built out of more beams than anyone can actually fit onto their bars! Templars, meanwhile, have one passive source of healing, and it depends on hitting an enemy with a skill that can only be landed if the enemy is effectively crowd-controlled (i.e. rooted or stunned without being knocked outside the house), which magplars can't do. Or to put it diffirently: the healing part of the magDK house is built on Major Mending, a powerful burst heal, and more sources of passive healing than they can even fit onto their bars. Templars only have the burst heal.
- Add a defense mechanism other than healing. The best way to do this is by buffing or reworking Sun Shield (either to be an effective shield on builds that aren't wearing Plague Doctor or by changing one morph to grant a non-shield defensive buff like Major Evasion), as that would also allow Templars to activate their Spear Wall passive on both bars (currently there is no good Aedric Spear skill to back-bar in PVP). Another way would be to give them sources of Minor Protection, Maim, or the like as passive additions to existing skills. (Minor Protection is one one morph of Rune Focus, but that's not an option since magicka templars cannot do without the sustain from the other morph unless they sacrifice too much offensive capability.)
- Add effective CC. By far the best way to do this is to give Spear Shards (or one morph of it) its old CC back. That skill is much easier to avoid than sorcs', NBs, or magDKs' CC, and so would still be an inferior CC to what other classes have, but it would be much better than what templars currently have. Another way to do this would be to add a Permafrost-like effect to the Sacred Ground passive: enemies who remain in one of templars ground-based effects are gradually snared at greater and greater magnitudes, until after X seconds they are rooted or stunned. Either way, templars need a reliable stun that isn't based on either leaving our house (Toppling Charge) or knocking enemies out of it (Javelin).

Templars need some combination of the above four buff categories in order to have an effective house. The class hasmore problems besides being an immobile class without a "house" (like the lack of an offensive ultimate for magplars), but giving Templars a house as effective as the ones that already exist in the game would go a long way to making them viable in PVP in roles other than the two they're currently pigeonholed into (unkillable Argonian tanks or group healers).

Minno · May 2018

Problem is we have no skills that match this. Granted blazing shield is that skill with blazing Spears raining down. But you have issues as well:
- channels make everything clunky
- no passive defense
- most of the Templar kit is ranged or requires mobilty (jabs needs speed, gap closer moves you away from your house, eclipse is ranged and single target, Dawn's wraith is entirely ranged, etc.)

They need to increase your DMG heavily while in circles and bring back a passive defense to compensate for the missing miss chance. One thing im learning from stamplar is how strong major protection and dodge chance is at passively increasing defense and magplar is missing that defense from countless defense nerfs over the years.

And it doesn't help that our healing was adjusted for mobilty back in 2014-2015 but then the stand your ground playstyle remained. Templar is in a weird clunky spot, mechanically.

Savos_Saren · May 2018

I 100% agree that the "house" mentality is outdated. Standing still in PVP is not a viable concept... especially with Negate and Earthgore rendering Templars/DKs abilities useless.

Templars need at least one melee CC as well. Perhaps make Rune Focus have some sort of soft CC.

I don't agree with comparing "house styles" between a DK and a Templar, though. Let's not forget that while they both have homes to defend- Templars can really reach out and annoy their neighbors. Templars have a lot of ranged abilities: Piercing Javelin, Spear Shards, Sun Fire, Solar Flare, Backlash, Eclipse, and Radiant Destruction (which is also an execute).

But, honestly, every class has an ability to be tanky and lock people down.

Hell, my 50k health Ice Warden can lock people down with Gripping Shards AND pop wings for instant mobility.

My MagSorc has TWO immobilizing abilities (Rune Prison & Daedric Mines), TWO stuns (Encase & Streak), and can completely Negate a "house" before popping Boundless Storm for expedition.

Even my Nightblade gains Major Expedition from his immobilizing ability (Crippling Grasp) and has the ability to defend his "house" by firing off Soul Shread and Sap Essence... and if it gets too hot to handle- he can cloak and expediently move away.

Why limit mobility for some sort of stand-your-ground idea that doesn't exist anymore?

jerj6925 · May 2018

I got the sinking feeling that the developers really don't know what to do with Templar class anymore. I always loved the stand your ground style of fighting or getting in the way of the enemy as its charging forward and trying to stop them or when on the attack engaging them on their ground and try to take control and or turning it against them.

Reading through a lot of the skills Templar stuff is easy to bypass in my opinion, just stay out of the house or jump in burst and jump out with out any real threat to your self. it takes too long to set up your house with all the high burst damage builds in this game, generally speaking (yes you can find exceptions always) but damage over time always looses out to burst damage.

for some reason I think Zenimax is afraid to put Templar back to how they performed when game first released, not sure why but just how I feel.

Minno · May 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I 100% agree that the "house" mentality is outdated. Standing still in PVP is not a viable concept... especially with Negate and Earthgore rendering Templars/DKs abilities useless.

Templars need at least one melee CC as well. Perhaps make Rune Focus have some sort of soft CC.

I don't agree with comparing "house styles" between a DK and a Templar, though. Let's not forget that while they both have homes to defend- Templars can really reach out and annoy their neighbors. Templars have a lot of ranged abilities: Piercing Javelin, Spear Shards, Sun Fire, Solar Flare, Backlash, Eclipse, and Radiant Destruction (which is also an execute).

But, honestly, every class has an ability to be tanky and lock people down.

Hell, my 50k health Ice Warden can lock people down with Gripping Shards AND pop wings for instant mobility.

My MagSorc has TWO immobilizing abilities (Rune Prison & Daedric Mines), TWO stuns (Encase & Streak), and can completely Negate a "house" before popping Boundless Storm for expedition.

Even my Nightblade gains Major Expedition from his immobilizing ability (Crippling Grasp) and has the ability to defend his "house" by firing off Soul Shread and Sap Essence... and if it gets too hot to handle- he can cloak and expediently move away.

Why limit mobility for some sort of stand-your-ground idea that doesn't exist anymore?

I don't think it's outdated, but mechanically received the most hate and thus the most nerfs. With mobilty elsewhere, Templars can get the changes to their house that are needed. We had like legit unavoidable beam that could be cast at full health which got nerfed because people got salty lol.

To protect your house, it makes sense you have access to the strongest ranged burst followed by lesser but unavoidable DMG in melee range. Jabs/blazing shield/snare punish players that get close with eclipse/dark flare/purfying light to initiate the fight. Here's my changes:
- fix jabs bugs. We still have no dev response on CP mitigation impacting DMG from before Morrowind to now. Also the hit box clunky animation doesn't help.
- blazing shield needs to be buffed for less health players but a Nerf to obscenely high health players. The dmg should also scale off your max stat so it's friendly for both stats.
- dark flare needs a DMG buff to make up for the empower change. Solar barrage should be given to spear shards; and then solar barrage be a ranged attack that provides minor maim. This way you have to choose between which debuff you want the event to have with your aedric spear giving you the dps empower when the enemy gets close.
- eclipse should root outside of the other cc immunity. I don't think it should completely lock out the enemy because it needs counter play, but currently it has niche application which doesn't punish the enemy for the cc immunity timer.
- extended ritual should be about purging effects. reduce the cost but give an immunity to an effect while in the circle. I could randomly remove 1 debuff every second while in the circle. Something to justify standing still.
- ritual of Retribution should be about sexy DMG. Drop your circle and get major beserk while in it. Instantly lose the effect if you leave it. Remove hot but grant life to you for each enemy hit.
- rune focus should be attached to the Templar now. Having two circles is awkward. Should grant minor evaison while active, have it's cost increased with a much larger duration. One should grant stamina sustain and one should grant Magicka sustain.
- healing passive that gives minor mending should be major mending while in the circle. Then remove the minor vitality buff but keep the minor protection (if other defensive buffs aren't granted) Remove rune from this passive.
- breath of life should become a high health heal so stamplars/tanks can use it better. Hotd should stay Magicka.
- Jesus beam needs it's scaling reviewed. The mag pool morph should just grant better base DMG instead of the mag pool scaling. The heal morph should stay or actually give minor defile to the enemy while active.
- toppling charge/explosive charge needs to have a mini house dropped as soon as you land. Something like minor maim might help.
- javelin should be cheaper. 3k cost with cost reduction that only CC's is kinda boring. Should match other ranged cc.
- Empowering sweeps should be either offensive or defensive. It should boost your other AOE DMG by x% for each enemy hit honestly.
- Nova should be cheaper and pulse around you.
- healing ultimate should be a ground target that keeps the healing/buffs on you if you touch the circle.
- reflective light to have a crit buff timer increased.
- spear passives should be slotted, but needs spear abilities to be worth it to slot.

That's what I'm thinking. You need to buff up the house in order to justify standing it in taking huge damage. I still think defiles, no speed in the kit, no spell DMG boost and lack of a unblocked cc should be the Templar weaknesses. But to compensate, they should be really effin strong in their circles of light. Knock em out, defile and wreck their stamina if you want to kill them.

NBrookus · May 2018

The house concept is poor for any class in a game where mobility is king. Not just in PVP, but increasingly in PVE as well. Next patch Accelerate *may* be an alternative to Mist Form for getting out of ult bombs, but is not a good overall mobility option.

Following up on @casparian 's comments about the DK house -- yes, DKs have a house. Problem is, fighting a magDK is *entirely* consentual. Losing the fight? Streak/cloak/sprint/rapids/falcon out of there. The only classes which really can't easily escape are other mDKs and magplars. Even stamplars and stamDKs, which are not super mobile, can bail out of that fight at the first sign of trouble, and usually there's not a thing you can do about it.

So DKs have all melee skills with no mobility, a half functioning gap closer and an 8m CC and no execute. Templars have a lot of ranged skills, a mostly functioning gap closer, and a ranged CC and execute... but a melee spammable and armor and healing buffs that don't move with you. Can we do some swapping here?

I feel like the devs are pushing all magicka characters into staffs, and the two intrinsically magicka melee classes are not being brought up to to date. While destro-plar can work, it is drastically inferior to magblade or magsorc.

CatchMeTrolling · May 2018

Spend most of my time running around my house .

Minno · May 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Spend most of my time running around my house .

I gave up my house to be a traveling stamplar hobo.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2018

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Spend most of my time running around my house .

I gave up my house to be a traveling stamplar hobo.

Less building a house, more pitching a tent, yeah?

casparian · May 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

The house concept is poor for any class in a game where mobility is king. Not just in PVP, but increasingly in PVE as well. Next patch Accelerate *may* be an alternative to Mist Form for getting out of ult bombs, but is not a good overall mobility option.

Following up on @casparian 's comments about the DK house -- yes, DKs have a house. Problem is, fighting a magDK is *entirely* consentual. Losing the fight? Streak/cloak/sprint/rapids/falcon out of there. The only classes which really can't easily escape are other mDKs and magplars. Even stamplars and stamDKs, which are not super mobile, can bail out of that fight at the first sign of trouble, and usually there's not a thing you can do about it.

So DKs have all melee skills with no mobility, a half functioning gap closer and an 8m CC and no execute. Templars have a lot of ranged skills, a mostly functioning gap closer, and a ranged CC and execute... but a melee spammable and armor and healing buffs that don't move with you. Can we do some swapping here?

I feel like the devs are pushing all magicka characters into staffs, and the two intrinsically magicka melee classes are not being brought up to to date. While destro-plar can work, it is drastically inferior to magblade or magsorc.

I'd gladly trade our execute for Lash, Leap, or Draw Essence (the things I most commonly kill low-health targets with as mDK).

I don't understand why people don't like Empowering Chains as a gap closer. Chains is one of the most fluid gap-closers in the game (you can even bar swap while gap-closing with Chains; it's amazing). On mDK if an opponent is at range, I can cast Draw Essence and FoO while holding down block so they can't damage me, then gap-close into unavoidable CC range faster than Crit Rush or Toppling Charge would take me, and have those pre-cast skills go off just as I land my Lash. It feels great and deletes many players.

It doesn't help with escaping, that's true. But slotting Chains means an opponent is not going to escape from my mDK unless they work hard (Rune Prison + double Streak will do it, or a stam build sprinting around LOS with Forward Momentum and Major Expedition, but those would be effective escapes from any class).

kylewwefan · May 2018

I couldn’t make it work on my Stamplar so I had to abandon it in favor of Mighty Chudan. The resistances are a major help, so they had to be replaced with something else.

In most everything I have to move around a lot. I can’t just set this little spot on the ground and wait for everything to come to me

My other Templar is a healer, so the focus gets used quite a bit. Probably more for extra recovery than resistance, though I’d have to admit it does help.

In Cyrodil the house is plain worthless and not worth a spot on my bar.

CatchMeTrolling · May 2018

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Spend most of my time running around my house .

I gave up my house to be a traveling stamplar hobo.

Lol that’s what I meant, the entire time I’m rolling , kiting and sprinting around it. Only time I’m home is to pick up the mail, in and out.

The house design makes even less sense on a stamplar.

Minno · May 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Spend most of my time running around my house .

I gave up my house to be a traveling stamplar hobo.

Lol that’s what I meant, the entire time I’m rolling , kiting and sprinting around it. Only time I’m home is to pick up the mail, in and out.

The house design makes even less sense on a stamplar.

Lol you only come home to see the kids then split, huh?

Stamplar can only have the house make sense if they use bow on one bar. Otherwise you don't have the range to engage from range like magplar can with staff/dark flare spam. They also need a morph or two from aedric spear/resto line to make automatically use of those passives. Otherwise it's dodge out of range till in a favorable spot for 1v1

Soris · May 2018

It seems to me there is a big conflict and confusion between combat devs concerning the templar class archetype by either making them truly mobile or non mobile with "building the house" mentality. Either ways it is incomplete and feels like we are stuck in purgatory in between those two realms.

If we meant to be a non mobile "house defender" type, the current skills are not enough for that playstyle since the game changed alot over the years. And if we meant to be a mobile class, (which is what game dictates every build rn) we are no way designed to be mobile with the current skill set.

Best thing to do imo, in either playstyles whatever you devs decide, you need to make it right and potent so that the class can perform fully to its strentghts. I personally dont mind being a non mobile class despite the pvp of this game dictates us. If you decide this "defend your house" playstyle for the class, you have to give us right tools to punish anyone who enters THE HOUSE, such as old blazing shield and blinding flashes, a good hard/soft cc or new skills similar in that fashion. If you decide us to be mobile one, you should give us sticky armor buffs, speed and get rid of the channels/reliying on channels for burning light proc.

Anything but this denial of the problems is not the right way to sustain a healthy game imo. So please take this into consideration.

Checkmath · May 2018

my suggestions for templars house would be:

- spear wall passive needs to be active always without having an aedric spear ability slotted

- balanced warrior should also grant physical resistance and spell damage

- removel either of piercing javelin or focused charge in order to make room for self buff skill. aedric armor (the new skill) could provide either evasion, could function as an aoe minor maim ability or a damage return ability against melee enemies. this all would fit in the schema of blinding enemies or to the passives of aedric spear skill line. maybe an unique buff like blade cloak, just for single target damage could be invented here.

- blinding effect attached to sun shield, which causes enemies to miss you after casting the skill. or a minor buff attached to the skill (minor protection maybe?)

- better healing for low health targets with the passive mending would be cool....or we get major mending back?

- sacred ground: lets get an unique buff while standing in it? 10% movement speed, which stacks with minor velocity for 4 seconds after leaving. or that the snare actually works on every enemy, also on them with snare immunity.

- major protection granted to healed allies below 30% health could be a new passive, which would grant some defense

- templars could need a strong healing over time. i suggested restoring aura as a skill, which could be changed into that. if we stick to the house, then this could also be an aoe, which grants that strong healing for 10 seconds when entering into the area.

- rune focus: enlarge the area and grant major protection while standing in it. the channeled focus should restore stamina or magicka depending on which stat is higher.

- grant minor vitality to allies standing in the cleansing ritual

this could be changes to give the templar a reliable house. but since its all about mobility....

NBrookus · May 2018

casparian wrote: »

I don't understand why people don't like Empowering Chains as a gap closer.

Because half the time I get a "too high/too low" error. Love it when it works... gave up on it because it fails you when you really need it.

tinythinker · May 2018

Some really interesting thoughts so far.

I don't think there is a problem with idea of having a strong option for slowing down movement in a highly mobile game (house), but if you are stuck in that house and can't defend it properly or bail when necessary it's gonna suck. That's why I favor a mobile home that can be effective on the move or be planted to get an extra boon and bring the pain.

At the moment I don't have a "big plan" overview, and in my case often those are just the result of flashes of ideas I get and then refine (maybe) and stitch together into something vaguely coherent.

Examples of recent unpolished flotsam:

A toggled stance granting minor expedition (activating gives 3 seconds of major) that boosts offensive stats some % and decreases defensive stance some % so that you can get out of Dodge or go on offense but have it balanced by being more vulnerable. Instead of offensive/defense stat changes could also be other types of buffs or debuffs but flat stat changes are easiest to understand and to code.

A toggled stance granting minor protection (activating gives 3 seconds of major) that boosts defensive stats some % and decreases offensive stance some % so that you can circle the wagons and recover resources or weather a storm. This could be the same ability as the toggle above: stand still and hold down for a gcd to switch between them, quick tap to remove, with an animation to signal adopting a different stance to enemy players have a brief chance to somehow CC or interrupt. That justified not making the bonuses weak. Or make it so that the bonuses/penalty to offense & defense grow over time so that you can't stay in once stance too long. either way, just make the benefit potent and have balance/fair counter-play.

A hybrid of Daedric Mines and Blazing Spear/Ritual of Retribution: multiple active circular AoEs at once (maybe up to three at a time) that fire out fast, are very short-lived, but are very potent -- perhaps snaring for some small amount while-draining a resource or inflicting some other punishment. You can auto-cast and get a feel for how to aim the three circles (if they last 3-4 seconds) or they just rain down randomly & rapidly in a radius around you (lasting 1 second). Opponents coming into your house will need to dodge or block a lot (while getting stam or mag drained each hit). Can also use this on the fly. Doesn't last long so you have to plan and hit it at the right time.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2018

If we're forced to live in a House, that house should be meaningful in a way that is more aggressive or Tanky than Dragon Knight. Even DK doesn't have to have a house and in all honesty I think DK is the class with a House. My view all along is that Rune Focus should just be a holy light that travels with you like all of the other Armor-inducing skills of the other classes. Alternately, I really like @Solariken's idea where the rune is like the eternal hunt rune as well. Honestly Templar needs something. Its design lacks cohesive structure and my main complaint (Mag or Stam) is that I feel like using anything but my class skills, and am often forced to slot a couple of bad Templar skills just to get access to SOME of my passives.

Joy_Division · May 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

The house concept is poor for any class in a game where mobility is king. Not just in PVP, but increasingly in PVE as well. Next patch Accelerate *may* be an alternative to Mist Form for getting out of ult bombs, but is not a good overall mobility option.

Following up on @casparian 's comments about the DK house -- yes, DKs have a house. Problem is, fighting a magDK is *entirely* consentual. Losing the fight? Streak/cloak/sprint/rapids/falcon out of there. The only classes which really can't easily escape are other mDKs and magplars. Even stamplars and stamDKs, which are not super mobile, can bail out of that fight at the first sign of trouble, and usually there's not a thing you can do about it.

So DKs have all melee skills with no mobility, a half functioning gap closer and an 8m CC and no execute. Templars have a lot of ranged skills, a mostly functioning gap closer, and a ranged CC and execute... but a melee spammable and armor and healing buffs that don't move with you. Can we do some swapping here?

I feel like the devs are pushing all magicka characters into staffs, and the two intrinsically magicka melee classes are not being brought up to to date. While destro-plar can work, it is drastically inferior to magblade or magsorc.

I would trade Focused charge (both morphs) For Empowering chains in a milisecond and have zero regrets. Especially next patch when it empowers twice.

I used to feel confident fighting a good DK head to head in their/my house, but that is not a proposition I care for anymore. There is no answer for Fossilize or Leap aside from "too bad, you'er eating it" and with all the templar nerfs to healing, the Templar no longer has the advantage there.

****

The "house concept" does not work for magplars in PvE because boss mechanics require you to move. It doesn't work in PvP either because templars no longer have anything in their kit that makes them scary to fight up-close (no decent blazing shield, no blinding flashes, no major mending, low damage weeps, no blazing spear), there isn't any reason for a magplar to stay put except not having to cast rune focus over and over again.

Since all facets of the game require movement, expecting Templars to just to stand still isn't going to work. I'm not asking to have high mobility, I am asking not to be screwed out of my buffs and defenses if I slowly ponder my way 10 meters to the left. And being able to actually impair my opponent up close, whether by damage, debuff, or CC, would be nice as well.

tinythinker · May 2018

Irylia · May 2018

I agree and enjoy reading these.

I’m not a templar player outside of a healbot once in a while but the snares in this game do nothing but hinder your ability to be in a fortified house.

I could see a few things changing.
Purify provides x seconds of snare immunity or every 5 seconds while remaining in the purify it provides you with a random 2 debuff cleanse.

Or
Snares are put on a major/minor system and the amount of snares in this game are drastically limited to 1 unique skill per class.

Every class needs some form of x sec immunity though otherwise when I’m playing sorc and struggling to streak away
I am permanently snared. The 10 sec low slash just turns into a burning embers or vamps bane and then a rending etc etc.

People can already gap close/sprint/snare or root me to prevent me from kiting or keeping distance easily which defeats the point of a magsorc. Much like templars main kit tool is obsolete due to the reapplication of snares and mobility from every Stam class.

I know this isn’t about sorcs but I’d like to see streak delay removed from both ends and provide a few seconds of snare removal + immunity.

Gap closers are already insane enough especially when the cost isn’t scaled.

Much like it shouldn’t be easy to break and enter a templars house it shouldn’t be easy to take a train ride on a sorc streak spending over 12k mag to gain a little breathing room.

Minno · May 2018

Irylia wrote: »

I agree and enjoy reading these.

I’m not a templar player outside of a healbot once in a while but the snares in this game do nothing but hinder your ability to be in a fortified house.

I could see a few things changing.
Purify provides x seconds of snare immunity or every 5 seconds while remaining in the purify it provides you with a random 2 debuff cleanse.

Or
Snares are put on a major/minor system and the amount of snares in this game are drastically limited to 1 unique skill per class.

Every class needs some form of x sec immunity though otherwise when I’m playing sorc and struggling to streak away
I am permanently snared. The 10 sec low slash just turns into a burning embers or vamps bane and then a rending etc etc.

People can already gap close/sprint/snare or root me to prevent me from kiting or keeping distance easily which defeats the point of a magsorc. Much like templars main kit tool is obsolete due to the reapplication of snares and mobility from every Stam class.

I know this isn’t about sorcs but I’d like to see streak delay removed from both ends and provide a few seconds of snare removal + immunity.

Gap closers are already insane enough especially when the cost isn’t scaled.

Much like it shouldn’t be easy to break and enter a templars house it shouldn’t be easy to take a train ride on a sorc streak spending over 12k mag to gain a little breathing room.

Like this suggestion.

Flipside, would be cool if purfy got a similar effect to the ranger set; while in your circle all snare/immobilze effects are reduced by 50%. That set includes duration/snare potency and zos can give Templars their own flavor of having the circle randomly dispell x effects or also give yourself a cheaper dodge roll in the circle if hit by a snare/immobilze.

It would justify staying in the circle and semi punish players trying to stay in melee range against a Templar.

Cage_Lizardman · May 2018

Mobility is a necessity in pvp and harder pve content. The abilities that templars have that limit mobility probably can't be made good enough to make up for that.

I use Ritual of Retribution mostly for the purge, it's also useful to decloak (sometimes) and keep inexperienced nb's away. But most will know that big red circle is harmless, especially on a stamina templar. Sorcs have mines that are more effective at keeping people away, why don't templars have something like that?

Restoring focus is a strong cheap skill but I still think it's useless on anything but a tank, because moving/dodgerolling is a more useful means of avoiding damage. Compared to a warden's ice fortress, that everyone uses in pvp, it's crap.

I think they should give templars mobility instead, that would be the easy way. Make those skills move with you, maybe even stamina morphs. Also repentence and sun shield should just be deleted.

f047ys3v3n · May 2018

casparian wrote: »

In talking about the Templar house, I think it's useful to start by comparing it to existing houses in the game.

Let's start with an example of an effective "house" that already exists: magicka Dragonknights'. If you get within close range of a magDK (5-8 meters), they can:
- CC you with an unblockable, undodgeable stun
- snare you
- root you
- apply Minor Maim to you
- activate their most powerful sources of self-defense (multiple passive heals, all of which require hitting enemies in melee range)

But just as important, magDKs also punish you for being outside their house (by reflecting your ranged attacks). Fighting a magDK forces you to choose between fighting on their turf and risking your attacks being reflected back at you.

So we can summarize: the magDK house comprises four main elements: effective CC, enemy debuffs, self-defenses, and punishment for staying at range.

Templars have none of this on what people think of as their main "house" skills (Ritual and Rune). (Well, there is a small snare on Ritual, but that's so inconsequential that we can ignore it.) Instead, all of it is combined into one ranged skill: Total Dark. Now it's unusual to think of Total Dark as Templars' main "house-building" skill. Most people would point to Rune and Ritual as our house. That's why it's instructive to start by asking looking at an actually effective house that already exists in the game. As we can see from that example, an effective house isn't about self-buffs. It's about controlling and punishing enemies. Total Dark is the skill that magplars have for that.

The problem with Total Dark is the way this skill debuffs the enemy, the way in which it functions as a CC, the way in which it defends the Templar, and the way in which it punishes the enemy for using ranged (i.e., direct damage projectile) skills are all one and the same thing: this skill forces the enemy to choose between losing a GCD or damaging themselves/healing the Templar. That's it. That's the way in which it functions as a CC, the way in which it functions to debuff the enemy, the way in which it provides the Templar a source of self-defense, and the way in which it functions to punish enemies for being at range.

The problem should be obvious: the foundation of Templars' house is a single skill, meaning it can be torn down by a single action (a simple CC break). MagDKs' house, on the other hand, rests on multiple skills, meaning it has a broad foundation that can't be torn down in a single action or single GCD. Tear down one beam(by rolling out of the roots, for example) and the rest of the house still stands. Templars only have the one beam.

In order to give Templars an actual house, they need to be given forms of enemy control, enemy debuffing, more powerful self-defense mechanisms (whether that be in the form of healing or something else), and a way to punish enemies for avoiding the house that isn't just identical to the first three items. As I see it, there are four basic options for doing this:
- Change Total Dark so that not all of its effects can be removed in a single global cooldown. One way to do this would be to add a root to it, so that enemies would have to choosing between rolling to cleanse the root or CC-breaking to get out of the bubble while remaining rooted. (@Minno has suggested this a few times.) Alternatively, there could be a lingering effect like a DOT or a lingering HOT on the Templar if the enemy breaks free of the bubble.
- Add more passive healing. Templars need more than Total Dark and the minor HOT from Ritual in order for their house to defend them as well as magDKs' house does. Next patch, magDKs' house will give them passive healing (i.e., healing they can activate while remaining on the offensive) from six separate sources (Shattering Rocks, Flame Lash, Burning Embers, Deep Breath, Cauterize, and Battle Roar). In other words, the magDK house is built out of more beams than anyone can actually fit onto their bars! Templars, meanwhile, have one passive source of healing, and it depends on hitting an enemy with a skill that can only be landed if the enemy is effectively crowd-controlled (i.e. rooted or stunned without being knocked outside the house), which magplars can't do. Or to put it diffirently: the healing part of the magDK house is built on Major Mending, a powerful burst heal, and more sources of passive healing than they can even fit onto their bars. Templars only have the burst heal.
- Add a defense mechanism other than healing. The best way to do this is by buffing or reworking Sun Shield (either to be an effective shield on builds that aren't wearing Plague Doctor or by changing one morph to grant a non-shield defensive buff like Major Evasion), as that would also allow Templars to activate their Spear Wall passive on both bars (currently there is no good Aedric Spear skill to back-bar in PVP). Another way would be to give them sources of Minor Protection, Maim, or the like as passive additions to existing skills. (Minor Protection is one one morph of Rune Focus, but that's not an option since magicka templars cannot do without the sustain from the other morph unless they sacrifice too much offensive capability.)
- Add effective CC. By far the best way to do this is to give Spear Shards (or one morph of it) its old CC back. That skill is much easier to avoid than sorcs', NBs, or magDKs' CC, and so would still be an inferior CC to what other classes have, but it would be much better than what templars currently have. Another way to do this would be to add a Permafrost-like effect to the Sacred Ground passive: enemies who remain in one of templars ground-based effects are gradually snared at greater and greater magnitudes, until after X seconds they are rooted or stunned. Either way, templars need a reliable stun that isn't based on either leaving our house (Toppling Charge) or knocking enemies out of it (Javelin).

Templars need some combination of the above four buff categories in order to have an effective house. The class hasmore problems besides being an immobile class without a "house" (like the lack of an offensive ultimate for magplars), but giving Templars a house as effective as the ones that already exist in the game would go a long way to making them viable in PVP in roles other than the two they're currently pigeonholed into (unkillable Argonian tanks or group healers).

Good point. The Templar house is a house of cards. It is the DK one that I fear. Also, how is it ok that the DK both has that house and can reflect my ranged stuff if I stay out of it. So much balance in this game.

cazlonb16_ESO · May 2018

I still suspect that Wrobel simply confused Templars and DKs when producing that "house" idea. Even before the nurfs since then it was utter nonsense - Templars never had the tools necessary to make it work.

UppGRAYxDD · May 2018

Bring blinding light back! Let us protect our house!

Stibbons · May 2018

House concept does not work in pvp and pve. You have to move in both or really have great buffs in our house. Now the house is just a catboard house with no real defence. You just go down and burn in your house or run out screaming.

Soris · May 2018

The house concept is nice for templar class imo. It just needs to be better. Current purify and focus is not enough to classify it as a house where blazing shield and blinding flashes did best in past

danno8 · May 2018

If we are keeping the house I suggest this:

Defense:

1. Sacred Ground passive. Drop the snare and add Minor Defile instead.

2. Solar Barrage. Keep the cast time but add the Major Defile (same as Dark Flare), or drop the cast time without Major Defile. Increase the range to be same as Purifying Ritual (8->12m)

3. Rune Focus. Duration of this ability is also refreshed by Sacred Ground ticks and morphs. Essentially this makes standing in Purifying Ritual circle (or casting it) refresh Focus buffs.

I think the two Defiles would actually make people wary of stepping into the "house", and having Sacred Ground refreshing Focus makes it easier to carry around those buffs without so many extra casts.

Offense:

1. Burning light can proc from any Templar damage, not just Aedric Spear line.

2. Piercing Spear. No longer requires an Aedric Spear skill slotted.

3. Balanced Warrior. Increases Weapon and Spell Power, and Physical and Spell resistance by x.

These really are small changes and I feel nothing major. Just QoL that will give a small boost to DPS and usability of the passives in the Templar arsenal.

I think the changes are valuable for both Stamina and Magicka Templars without taking away from either of them.