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The ceiling and the floor
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lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I said it before, and I say it again: put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. This is really the one change that will end this discussion forever and will also make the combat system make sense to new players.
It would also ruin the combat system by making it incredibly clunky. May as well just play FFS or Fire Emblem if you're going to change combat to be so turn based.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be treated like another skill. I don't see anyone claiming that not being able to use a million skills in a second is somehow making combat "clunky". You wouldn't be able to light attack weave, and it's a good thing. Some skills would need rework, but overall this would be the best change for the combat system that there could be.
Aside from the fact that, you know, ZOS is now teaching new players to light attack weave in the Level Up Advisor.
That is the most irrelevant statement in regards to this conversation that there could be. Yes, of course they are teaching new players how to do it, because that's the way the system works now. If it worked the way I'm suggesting, you wouldn't need to teach anyone, because it would be intuitive. Removing a single line from the level-up advisor that nobody except people looking for it ever saw would hardly be a dramatic change.
I’ll never understand why people want to take one of the bigger skill elements for DPS players out of the game. If all you have to do is cast a few DoTs every 10 seconds or so in your system combat would be absurdly boring. Literally just ask any DPS with a trial/DLC HM skin or title for advice and they are likely more than willing to help you learn to weave. Alternatively spend 5 minutes on YouTube. Contrary to popular opinion good (good =/= CP 720) PvE players aren’t usually toxic at all. If anyone wants AC tutorials, @lassitershawn PC NA.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x21 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I said it before, and I say it again: put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. This is really the one change that will end this discussion forever and will also make the combat system make sense to new players.
It would also ruin the combat system by making it incredibly clunky. May as well just play FFS or Fire Emblem if you're going to change combat to be so turn based.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be treated like another skill. I don't see anyone claiming that not being able to use a million skills in a second is somehow making combat "clunky". You wouldn't be able to light attack weave, and it's a good thing. Some skills would need rework, but overall this would be the best change for the combat system that there could be.
Aside from the fact that, you know, ZOS is now teaching new players to light attack weave in the Level Up Advisor.
That is the most irrelevant statement in regards to this conversation that there could be. Yes, of course they are teaching new players how to do it, because that's the way the system works now. If it worked the way I'm suggesting, you wouldn't need to teach anyone, because it would be intuitive. Removing a single line from the level-up advisor that nobody except people looking for it ever saw would hardly be a dramatic change.
You want light attack weaving removed. Not only has it been a part of the game for a long time, ZOS is now teaching players to do it and buffing light attacks to increase its viability.
From that, I think its pretty clear that ZOS is intending to promote light attack weaving, not suddenly remove it by making it a part of the global ability cool down.
So because ZOS makes a bad decision I'm supposed to agree with it? Why are there any "nerf this buff that" threads at all then if ZOS is an unquestionable authority? Should we make a church of ZOS if we aren't allowed to question their design decisions?
Why do you want every player's damage to suddenly be lowered?
Do you realize how much longer everything would take if Light Attacks became impossible to weave?
That would be huge loss of DPS in a trial group, suddenly making all trials longer than anyone wants them to be.
Really? That's the best argument you have to offer? Because the solution to that is simple - increase damage of all spells by 5-10%. Done, everyone does the same damage when doing the same rotation. With the only difference being, you don't have to break your mouse to do it, and everyone who wasn't trying to break it can do it too (raising the floor).
I'm sick and tired of people who can't see past their nose and think that a change in mechanics is a nerf, as if there are no other numbers to adjust.
Im mean, well, you're right.
But clicking your left mouse button one time every second isn't that exhausting.
I think it's much harder to do a clean rotation for the most people.
To know the priority of your skills.
If you have 2 DOTs with a 8 sec cooldown and a 10 sec DOT with a higher priority, you delay the 8sec DOT for the 10sec dot and the next time you don't bring the two 8 sec DOTs together.
You do DOT-Spammable-DOT.
I sometimes weapon swap every second for like 8 sec.
That may be true, but it's not just a question of complexity, but also about how intuitive the system is. As it is right now, it's not intuitive at all, and a 1-liner you only see once while leveling isn't enough to teach you how to do it, or even whether it's important enough to bother with.
Well at this point, adapt or get left behind. If you want a different combat system, play a different game because what you proposed is 100% not happening.
Neither was 2h weapons counting as 2 set pieces, and look what happened now. Just like you, there were plenty of people before who said it would be broken because "2h weapons would deal too much damage", who just like you can't see past their nose.
What I'm suggesting is a minimal change to an already great combat system that would bring with it a significant QoL improvement, especially for new players who don't have a gaming mouse that they can program to do the weaving for them. This is not the radical change to the system as you make it out to be, and it certainly wouldn't make ESO a different game.
If you think it's not worth it because change is bad and papa ZOS put in 1 line of text to support current gameplay in the current version of the game and therefore what is correct now is always correct, then please stop posting, because that is completely irrelevant to the suggestion itself, and only derails the conversation.
I play on a trackpad and use “F” as my light attack key. I’m almost 100% certain nobody in any of my groups has macros for LA weaving. Don’t make stuff up to promote bad ideas.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x22 -
Thorstienn✭✭✭Let me try it this way, using common forum arguments/comments:
"90% of content is so easy you can just spam LA so it's pointless"
"Don't join Vet unless you can pull 25+k"
"It's not hard just left click before abilties"
"Why remove the only level of skill left in the game"
"It's part of the game, it's even in the tutorial" (new one)
"If you need help with it refer to said-youtuber/contact me"
Doesn't reducing the impact of LA (their damage) fix all of these? If you just spam LA the whole game will be hard. If you weave/AC you'll still pull higher (I'm not saying make LA cause 0damage).
Content can be scaled appropriately and we can all find a level of challenge.
0 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭Thorstienn wrote: »Let me try it this way, using common forum arguments/comments:
"90% of content is so easy you can just spam LA so it's pointless"
"Don't join Vet unless you can pull 25+k"
"It's not hard just left click before abilties"
"Why remove the only level of skill left in the game"
"It's part of the game, it's even in the tutorial" (new one)
"If you need help with it refer to said-youtuber/contact me"
Doesn't reducing the impact of LA (their damage) fix all of these? If you just spam LA the whole game will be hard. If you weave/AC you'll still pull higher (I'm not saying make LA cause 0damage).
Content can be scaled appropriately and we can all find a level of challenge.
1.
There is a video somewhere on the forums of me and three friends light attacking vWGT with no wipes before the original nerfs. Somewhere around 7k DPS. Templar tank iirc. So yeah I’d say a lot of content is LA beatable.
2.
It isn’t as if you will get a good rotation/build without YouTube/other players either. What is the difference?
3.
Reducing the damage of LA is a bad idea because it ruins the feeling of progression and work. It’s awesome when a new player aspiring to do hard content finally gets the hang of it and dedicates time to improving him/herself.
4.
Hard content gives you a feeling of ACCOMPLISHMENT. Games don’t survive on cake content. People don’t want easy, they want a hard goal they can achieve. Everything in this game is achievable with hard work and practice and dedication. One of my friends I helped train worked from sub 400 to 650 CP and went from his first AA to a vAS+2 nearly full-prog clear in a matter of three months or less. I can tell you he definitely enjoyed getting better at weaving (from not knowing what weaving was).William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x22 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭lassitershawn wrote: »Thorstienn wrote: »Let me try it this way, using common forum arguments/comments:
"90% of content is so easy you can just spam LA so it's pointless"
"Don't join Vet unless you can pull 25+k"
"It's not hard just left click before abilties"
"Why remove the only level of skill left in the game"
"It's part of the game, it's even in the tutorial" (new one)
"If you need help with it refer to said-youtuber/contact me"
Doesn't reducing the impact of LA (their damage) fix all of these? If you just spam LA the whole game will be hard. If you weave/AC you'll still pull higher (I'm not saying make LA cause 0damage).
Content can be scaled appropriately and we can all find a level of challenge.
1.
There is a video somewhere on the forums of me and three friends light attacking vWGT with no wipes before the original nerfs. Somewhere around 7k DPS. Templar tank iirc. So yeah I’d say a lot of content is LA beatable.
2.
It isn’t as if you will get a good rotation/build without YouTube/other players either. What is the difference?
3.
Reducing the damage of LA is a bad idea because it ruins the feeling of progression and work. It’s awesome when a new player aspiring to do hard content finally gets the hang of it and dedicates time to improving him/herself.
4.
Hard content gives you a feeling of ACCOMPLISHMENT. Games don’t survive on cake content. People don’t want easy, they want a hard goal they can achieve. Everything in this game is achievable with hard work and practice and dedication. One of my friends I helped train worked from sub 400 to 650 CP and went from his first AA to a vAS+2 nearly full-prog clear in a matter of three months or less. I can tell you he definitely enjoyed getting better at weaving (from not knowing what weaving was).
Hey! It's Aedric from in-game. This is my old @name that they haven't changed for me yet.
I totally agree on the light attack weaving giving the feeling of accomplishment/progression.
I'm on a magNIghtblade these days and it's so much fun using such a dynamic rotation, with light attacks and Assassin's Will giving their own little challenge to weave between one another.
It feels like I'm actually "doing damage" if that makes sense.
I reached 39k on a 6mil dummy last night and I wouldn't trade the combat system for any other.
The only complaints I have for it are the bar swap lags and light attacks sometimes not registering, but that's more of a coding problem than an implementation issue.0 -
SammyFable✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I said it before, and I say it again: put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. This is really the one change that will end this discussion forever and will also make the combat system make sense to new players.
It would also ruin the combat system by making it incredibly clunky. May as well just play FFS or Fire Emblem if you're going to change combat to be so turn based.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be treated like another skill. I don't see anyone claiming that not being able to use a million skills in a second is somehow making combat "clunky". You wouldn't be able to light attack weave, and it's a good thing. Some skills would need rework, but overall this would be the best change for the combat system that there could be.
Aside from the fact that, you know, ZOS is now teaching new players to light attack weave in the Level Up Advisor.
That is the most irrelevant statement in regards to this conversation that there could be. Yes, of course they are teaching new players how to do it, because that's the way the system works now. If it worked the way I'm suggesting, you wouldn't need to teach anyone, because it would be intuitive. Removing a single line from the level-up advisor that nobody except people looking for it ever saw would hardly be a dramatic change.
You want light attack weaving removed. Not only has it been a part of the game for a long time, ZOS is now teaching players to do it and buffing light attacks to increase its viability.
From that, I think its pretty clear that ZOS is intending to promote light attack weaving, not suddenly remove it by making it a part of the global ability cool down.
So because ZOS makes a bad decision I'm supposed to agree with it? Why are there any "nerf this buff that" threads at all then if ZOS is an unquestionable authority? Should we make a church of ZOS if we aren't allowed to question their design decisions?
Why do you want every player's damage to suddenly be lowered?
Do you realize how much longer everything would take if Light Attacks became impossible to weave?
That would be huge loss of DPS in a trial group, suddenly making all trials longer than anyone wants them to be.
Really? That's the best argument you have to offer? Because the solution to that is simple - increase damage of all spells by 5-10%. Done, everyone does the same damage when doing the same rotation. With the only difference being, you don't have to break your mouse to do it, and everyone who wasn't trying to break it can do it too (raising the floor).
I'm sick and tired of people who can't see past their nose and think that a change in mechanics is a nerf, as if there are no other numbers to adjust.
Im mean, well, you're right.
But clicking your left mouse button one time every second isn't that exhausting.
I think it's much harder to do a clean rotation for the most people.
To know the priority of your skills.
If you have 2 DOTs with a 8 sec cooldown and a 10 sec DOT with a higher priority, you delay the 8sec DOT for the 10sec dot and the next time you don't bring the two 8 sec DOTs together.
You do DOT-Spammable-DOT.
I sometimes weapon swap every second for like 8 sec.
That may be true, but it's not just a question of complexity, but also about how intuitive the system is. As it is right now, it's not intuitive at all, and a 1-liner you only see once while leveling isn't enough to teach you how to do it, or even whether it's important enough to bother with.
Well at this point, adapt or get left behind. If you want a different combat system, play a different game because what you proposed is 100% not happening.
Neither was 2h weapons counting as 2 set pieces, and look what happened now. Just like you, there were plenty of people before who said it would be broken because "2h weapons would deal too much damage", who just like you can't see past their nose.
What I'm suggesting is a minimal change to an already great combat system that would bring with it a significant QoL improvement, especially for new players who don't have a gaming mouse that they can program to do the weaving for them. This is not the radical change to the system as you make it out to be, and it certainly wouldn't make ESO a different game.
If you think it's not worth it because change is bad and papa ZOS put in 1 line of text to support current gameplay in the current version of the game and therefore what is correct now is always correct, then please stop posting, because that is completely irrelevant to the suggestion itself, and only derails the conversation.
A minimal change? Certainly not! DId you consider, that there are a lot of sets in the game that actually encourage/need the use of light attacks? Undaunted Infiltrator, Queen's Elegance and Molag Kena come to mind. And probably the most important: The Maelstrom Staff.
But it's not only sets that would be affected. Nightblades grim focus ability also depends on light attacks.
With your "minimal change" everything mentioned would need some serious reworking or else it would become utter trash.
I really don't want to insult you, but you sound a lot like you just don't like weaving and want Zos to get rid of it without thinking it completely through.2 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »Thorstienn wrote: »Let me try it this way, using common forum arguments/comments:
"90% of content is so easy you can just spam LA so it's pointless"
"Don't join Vet unless you can pull 25+k"
"It's not hard just left click before abilties"
"Why remove the only level of skill left in the game"
"It's part of the game, it's even in the tutorial" (new one)
"If you need help with it refer to said-youtuber/contact me"
Doesn't reducing the impact of LA (their damage) fix all of these? If you just spam LA the whole game will be hard. If you weave/AC you'll still pull higher (I'm not saying make LA cause 0damage).
Content can be scaled appropriately and we can all find a level of challenge.
1.
There is a video somewhere on the forums of me and three friends light attacking vWGT with no wipes before the original nerfs. Somewhere around 7k DPS. Templar tank iirc. So yeah I’d say a lot of content is LA beatable.
2.
It isn’t as if you will get a good rotation/build without YouTube/other players either. What is the difference?
3.
Reducing the damage of LA is a bad idea because it ruins the feeling of progression and work. It’s awesome when a new player aspiring to do hard content finally gets the hang of it and dedicates time to improving him/herself.
4.
Hard content gives you a feeling of ACCOMPLISHMENT. Games don’t survive on cake content. People don’t want easy, they want a hard goal they can achieve. Everything in this game is achievable with hard work and practice and dedication. One of my friends I helped train worked from sub 400 to 650 CP and went from his first AA to a vAS+2 nearly full-prog clear in a matter of three months or less. I can tell you he definitely enjoyed getting better at weaving (from not knowing what weaving was).
Hey! It's Aedric from in-game. This is my old @name that they haven't changed for me yet.
I totally agree on the light attack weaving giving the feeling of accomplishment/progression.
I'm on a magNIghtblade these days and it's so much fun using such a dynamic rotation, with light attacks and Assassin's Will giving their own little challenge to weave between one another.
It feels like I'm actually "doing damage" if that makes sense.
I reached 39k on a 6mil dummy last night and I wouldn't trade the combat system for any other.
The only complaints I have for it are the bar swap lags and light attacks sometimes not registering, but that's more of a coding problem than an implementation issue.
Hiya!William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭SammyFable wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I said it before, and I say it again: put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. This is really the one change that will end this discussion forever and will also make the combat system make sense to new players.
It would also ruin the combat system by making it incredibly clunky. May as well just play FFS or Fire Emblem if you're going to change combat to be so turn based.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be treated like another skill. I don't see anyone claiming that not being able to use a million skills in a second is somehow making combat "clunky". You wouldn't be able to light attack weave, and it's a good thing. Some skills would need rework, but overall this would be the best change for the combat system that there could be.
Aside from the fact that, you know, ZOS is now teaching new players to light attack weave in the Level Up Advisor.
That is the most irrelevant statement in regards to this conversation that there could be. Yes, of course they are teaching new players how to do it, because that's the way the system works now. If it worked the way I'm suggesting, you wouldn't need to teach anyone, because it would be intuitive. Removing a single line from the level-up advisor that nobody except people looking for it ever saw would hardly be a dramatic change.
You want light attack weaving removed. Not only has it been a part of the game for a long time, ZOS is now teaching players to do it and buffing light attacks to increase its viability.
From that, I think its pretty clear that ZOS is intending to promote light attack weaving, not suddenly remove it by making it a part of the global ability cool down.
So because ZOS makes a bad decision I'm supposed to agree with it? Why are there any "nerf this buff that" threads at all then if ZOS is an unquestionable authority? Should we make a church of ZOS if we aren't allowed to question their design decisions?
Why do you want every player's damage to suddenly be lowered?
Do you realize how much longer everything would take if Light Attacks became impossible to weave?
That would be huge loss of DPS in a trial group, suddenly making all trials longer than anyone wants them to be.
Really? That's the best argument you have to offer? Because the solution to that is simple - increase damage of all spells by 5-10%. Done, everyone does the same damage when doing the same rotation. With the only difference being, you don't have to break your mouse to do it, and everyone who wasn't trying to break it can do it too (raising the floor).
I'm sick and tired of people who can't see past their nose and think that a change in mechanics is a nerf, as if there are no other numbers to adjust.
Im mean, well, you're right.
But clicking your left mouse button one time every second isn't that exhausting.
I think it's much harder to do a clean rotation for the most people.
To know the priority of your skills.
If you have 2 DOTs with a 8 sec cooldown and a 10 sec DOT with a higher priority, you delay the 8sec DOT for the 10sec dot and the next time you don't bring the two 8 sec DOTs together.
You do DOT-Spammable-DOT.
I sometimes weapon swap every second for like 8 sec.
That may be true, but it's not just a question of complexity, but also about how intuitive the system is. As it is right now, it's not intuitive at all, and a 1-liner you only see once while leveling isn't enough to teach you how to do it, or even whether it's important enough to bother with.
Well at this point, adapt or get left behind. If you want a different combat system, play a different game because what you proposed is 100% not happening.
Neither was 2h weapons counting as 2 set pieces, and look what happened now. Just like you, there were plenty of people before who said it would be broken because "2h weapons would deal too much damage", who just like you can't see past their nose.
What I'm suggesting is a minimal change to an already great combat system that would bring with it a significant QoL improvement, especially for new players who don't have a gaming mouse that they can program to do the weaving for them. This is not the radical change to the system as you make it out to be, and it certainly wouldn't make ESO a different game.
If you think it's not worth it because change is bad and papa ZOS put in 1 line of text to support current gameplay in the current version of the game and therefore what is correct now is always correct, then please stop posting, because that is completely irrelevant to the suggestion itself, and only derails the conversation.
A minimal change? Certainly not! DId you consider, that there are a lot of sets in the game that actually encourage/need the use of light attacks? Undaunted Infiltrator, Queen's Elegance and Molag Kena come to mind. And probably the most important: The Maelstrom Staff.
But it's not only sets that would be affected. Nightblades grim focus ability also depends on light attacks.
With your "minimal change" everything mentioned would need some serious reworking or else it would become utter trash.
I really don't want to insult you, but you sound a lot like you just don't like weaving and want Zos to get rid of it without thinking it completely through.
The new "Elemental Weapon" also seems to be clearly aimed at light weaving to add one to the list. Zaan as well.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
Thorstienn✭✭✭Can you guys/girls/butterflies really not understand the concept of this thread?
I AM NOT SAYING TO REMOVE LA FROM THE GAME!!!
I AM NOT SAYING MAKE LA WORTH 1%IF YOUR DPS!!!
I am well aware of things like "elemental weapon" I even mentioned them. I am well aware that ZOS is playing hard on buffing LA.
This is what I fundamentally disagree with:
So buff LA, nerf LA.... All those proc sets/abilities you mentioned would still work, they aren't determined by the damage of a LA, just the use of one. If you want TOP DPS you still need to use LA weaving and AC!
IT JUST SHOULDN'T EQUATE TO 25% OF YOUR DPS ON IT'S OWN!
Great to hear your buddy got some gains in his rotation; guess what? Still will if LA were reduced by another 50%, hell another 99% would Still get gains!Edited by Thorstienn on May 1, 2018 2:02PM0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭SammyFable wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I said it before, and I say it again: put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. This is really the one change that will end this discussion forever and will also make the combat system make sense to new players.
It would also ruin the combat system by making it incredibly clunky. May as well just play FFS or Fire Emblem if you're going to change combat to be so turn based.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be treated like another skill. I don't see anyone claiming that not being able to use a million skills in a second is somehow making combat "clunky". You wouldn't be able to light attack weave, and it's a good thing. Some skills would need rework, but overall this would be the best change for the combat system that there could be.
Aside from the fact that, you know, ZOS is now teaching new players to light attack weave in the Level Up Advisor.
That is the most irrelevant statement in regards to this conversation that there could be. Yes, of course they are teaching new players how to do it, because that's the way the system works now. If it worked the way I'm suggesting, you wouldn't need to teach anyone, because it would be intuitive. Removing a single line from the level-up advisor that nobody except people looking for it ever saw would hardly be a dramatic change.
You want light attack weaving removed. Not only has it been a part of the game for a long time, ZOS is now teaching players to do it and buffing light attacks to increase its viability.
From that, I think its pretty clear that ZOS is intending to promote light attack weaving, not suddenly remove it by making it a part of the global ability cool down.
So because ZOS makes a bad decision I'm supposed to agree with it? Why are there any "nerf this buff that" threads at all then if ZOS is an unquestionable authority? Should we make a church of ZOS if we aren't allowed to question their design decisions?
Why do you want every player's damage to suddenly be lowered?
Do you realize how much longer everything would take if Light Attacks became impossible to weave?
That would be huge loss of DPS in a trial group, suddenly making all trials longer than anyone wants them to be.
Really? That's the best argument you have to offer? Because the solution to that is simple - increase damage of all spells by 5-10%. Done, everyone does the same damage when doing the same rotation. With the only difference being, you don't have to break your mouse to do it, and everyone who wasn't trying to break it can do it too (raising the floor).
I'm sick and tired of people who can't see past their nose and think that a change in mechanics is a nerf, as if there are no other numbers to adjust.
Im mean, well, you're right.
But clicking your left mouse button one time every second isn't that exhausting.
I think it's much harder to do a clean rotation for the most people.
To know the priority of your skills.
If you have 2 DOTs with a 8 sec cooldown and a 10 sec DOT with a higher priority, you delay the 8sec DOT for the 10sec dot and the next time you don't bring the two 8 sec DOTs together.
You do DOT-Spammable-DOT.
I sometimes weapon swap every second for like 8 sec.
That may be true, but it's not just a question of complexity, but also about how intuitive the system is. As it is right now, it's not intuitive at all, and a 1-liner you only see once while leveling isn't enough to teach you how to do it, or even whether it's important enough to bother with.
Well at this point, adapt or get left behind. If you want a different combat system, play a different game because what you proposed is 100% not happening.
Neither was 2h weapons counting as 2 set pieces, and look what happened now. Just like you, there were plenty of people before who said it would be broken because "2h weapons would deal too much damage", who just like you can't see past their nose.
What I'm suggesting is a minimal change to an already great combat system that would bring with it a significant QoL improvement, especially for new players who don't have a gaming mouse that they can program to do the weaving for them. This is not the radical change to the system as you make it out to be, and it certainly wouldn't make ESO a different game.
If you think it's not worth it because change is bad and papa ZOS put in 1 line of text to support current gameplay in the current version of the game and therefore what is correct now is always correct, then please stop posting, because that is completely irrelevant to the suggestion itself, and only derails the conversation.
A minimal change? Certainly not! DId you consider, that there are a lot of sets in the game that actually encourage/need the use of light attacks? Undaunted Infiltrator, Queen's Elegance and Molag Kena come to mind. And probably the most important: The Maelstrom Staff.
But it's not only sets that would be affected. Nightblades grim focus ability also depends on light attacks.
With your "minimal change" everything mentioned would need some serious reworking or else it would become utter trash.
I really don't want to insult you, but you sound a lot like you just don't like weaving and want Zos to get rid of it without thinking it completely through.
Those are far fewer than you make them out to be. But let's take your examples...
Undaunted Infiltrator:
Nobody uses it, because it's already bad. Going from desirable for 0 players to desirable for 0 players is hardly an issue. If you want people to use it, it needs rework anyways.
Queen's Elegance:
It will still be a thing because of Overload. You can't weave while using overload. Do you know anyone who isn't a magsorc with overload who would ever consider using this set?
Molag Kena:
If it's triggered by weaving, it's a bug, because it requires 2 consecutive light attacks, which means literally nothing will change for those who use this set, unless they are abusing a bug.
Maelstrom Staff:
It also buffs heavy attacks, which would continue working the same way. A slight bump to HA damage would be all the change it needs to remain desirable.
Grim focus:
Yes, that would need a change. So would Siphoning Strikes. You found one skill, I gave you one extra. That's out of how many?
So yeah, indeed minimal changes, since half the things you mentioned wouldn't need any change at all to perform exactly as they do now, and it wasn't a long list to begin with. If you think that that is somehow a lot of work, how much is good gameplay worth to you? Because this could be resolved in 1 day, all the way from the drawing board to the implementation. Bad design is bad, no matter the excuses.
Yes, I don't like weaving, find me someone who likes it for reasons other than "because it's the way it's always been" or people with epeen issues who think that pressing the mouse button every second somehow constitutes skill.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭lassitershawn wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I said it before, and I say it again: put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. This is really the one change that will end this discussion forever and will also make the combat system make sense to new players.
It would also ruin the combat system by making it incredibly clunky. May as well just play FFS or Fire Emblem if you're going to change combat to be so turn based.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be treated like another skill. I don't see anyone claiming that not being able to use a million skills in a second is somehow making combat "clunky". You wouldn't be able to light attack weave, and it's a good thing. Some skills would need rework, but overall this would be the best change for the combat system that there could be.
Aside from the fact that, you know, ZOS is now teaching new players to light attack weave in the Level Up Advisor.
That is the most irrelevant statement in regards to this conversation that there could be. Yes, of course they are teaching new players how to do it, because that's the way the system works now. If it worked the way I'm suggesting, you wouldn't need to teach anyone, because it would be intuitive. Removing a single line from the level-up advisor that nobody except people looking for it ever saw would hardly be a dramatic change.
You want light attack weaving removed. Not only has it been a part of the game for a long time, ZOS is now teaching players to do it and buffing light attacks to increase its viability.
From that, I think its pretty clear that ZOS is intending to promote light attack weaving, not suddenly remove it by making it a part of the global ability cool down.
So because ZOS makes a bad decision I'm supposed to agree with it? Why are there any "nerf this buff that" threads at all then if ZOS is an unquestionable authority? Should we make a church of ZOS if we aren't allowed to question their design decisions?
Why do you want every player's damage to suddenly be lowered?
Do you realize how much longer everything would take if Light Attacks became impossible to weave?
That would be huge loss of DPS in a trial group, suddenly making all trials longer than anyone wants them to be.
Really? That's the best argument you have to offer? Because the solution to that is simple - increase damage of all spells by 5-10%. Done, everyone does the same damage when doing the same rotation. With the only difference being, you don't have to break your mouse to do it, and everyone who wasn't trying to break it can do it too (raising the floor).
I'm sick and tired of people who can't see past their nose and think that a change in mechanics is a nerf, as if there are no other numbers to adjust.
Im mean, well, you're right.
But clicking your left mouse button one time every second isn't that exhausting.
I think it's much harder to do a clean rotation for the most people.
To know the priority of your skills.
If you have 2 DOTs with a 8 sec cooldown and a 10 sec DOT with a higher priority, you delay the 8sec DOT for the 10sec dot and the next time you don't bring the two 8 sec DOTs together.
You do DOT-Spammable-DOT.
I sometimes weapon swap every second for like 8 sec.
That may be true, but it's not just a question of complexity, but also about how intuitive the system is. As it is right now, it's not intuitive at all, and a 1-liner you only see once while leveling isn't enough to teach you how to do it, or even whether it's important enough to bother with.
Well at this point, adapt or get left behind. If you want a different combat system, play a different game because what you proposed is 100% not happening.
Neither was 2h weapons counting as 2 set pieces, and look what happened now. Just like you, there were plenty of people before who said it would be broken because "2h weapons would deal too much damage", who just like you can't see past their nose.
What I'm suggesting is a minimal change to an already great combat system that would bring with it a significant QoL improvement, especially for new players who don't have a gaming mouse that they can program to do the weaving for them. This is not the radical change to the system as you make it out to be, and it certainly wouldn't make ESO a different game.
If you think it's not worth it because change is bad and papa ZOS put in 1 line of text to support current gameplay in the current version of the game and therefore what is correct now is always correct, then please stop posting, because that is completely irrelevant to the suggestion itself, and only derails the conversation.
I play on a trackpad and use “F” as my light attack key. I’m almost 100% certain nobody in any of my groups has macros for LA weaving. Don’t make stuff up to promote bad ideas.
How would you know that nobody uses it? It works exactly the same as if you were to do it manually. Besides, whether or not somebody uses macros for that is irrelevant. The only reason I mentioned it, is to prevent the defenders of the status quo from using that as yet another example of how easy it is and should therefore stay. It's bad design regardless, so stop defending it.0 -
SirSocke✭✭✭It's no fun anymore reading the forums. It's like in every other thread here. People that can't do something well (weaving, AC, rotation, survive ganking, smash shields... ) complaining about and want heavy changes to the game. Instead of invest some time in learn how to weave, survive, smash...
The combat system is great and if I'm in the mood of playing slower then I play GW2 or so.
Back to toppic:
Yes, light attacks should be part of the rotation, but not for 25% of the dps. But no, they should not doing less than 10% in a perfect rotation, because so they were rewarding but not needed for completing the content.
Bosmer stamina nightblade!1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's no fun anymore reading the forums. It's like in every other thread here. People that can't do something well (weaving, AC, rotation, survive ganking, smash shields... ) complaining about and want heavy changes to the game. Instead of invest some time in learn how to weave, survive, smash...
The combat system is great and if I'm in the mood of playing slower then I play GW2 or so.
Back to toppic:
Yes, light attacks should be part of the rotation, but not for 25% of the dps. But no, they should not doing less than 10% in a perfect rotation, because so they were rewarding but not needed for completing the content.
Just because I don't like the mechanic, doesn't mean I can't do it. Please don't project the reason for your complaints onto others. I can weave pretty well, it's just a pointless and unintuitive mechanic. LA weaving doesn't have any impact on the pace of the game, because it's effectively a part of the spell you're using every time.
As for % of a proper rotation - if you want to keep weaving as a core mechanic, it doesn't really matter how much of the damage it is doing, because everybody should be doing it anyways. But still, according to the 4.0.2 patch notes you seem to have been granted your wish.0 -
DeliCreep✭✭✭Thorstienn just because you have an opinion, other people do not have to respect it, especially if you are wrong. If you want a much easier combat system, then just play some other boring MMO that already has a dumb combat system (like WoW). Clearly if you were good at weaving LAs, you wouldn't ask ZOS to nerf your own dps. Also every second attack is a light attack (followed by some skill), so do you honestly believe that 50% of your attacks should only deal like 10% of your total damage? I just hate it that people who have no idea are the loudest...Immortal Redeemer1 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thorstienn wrote: »Can you guys/girls/butterflies really not understand the concept of this thread?
I AM NOT SAYING TO REMOVE LA FROM THE GAME!!!
I AM NOT SAYING MAKE LA WORTH 1%IF YOUR DPS!!!
I am well aware of things like "elemental weapon" I even mentioned them. I am well aware that ZOS is playing hard on buffing LA.
This is what I fundamentally disagree with:
So buff LA, nerf LA.... All those proc sets/abilities you mentioned would still work, they aren't determined by the damage of a LA, just the use of one. If you want TOP DPS you still need to use LA weaving and AC!
IT JUST SHOULDN'T EQUATE TO 25% OF YOUR DPS ON IT'S OWN!
Great to hear your buddy got some gains in his rotation; guess what? Still will if LA were reduced by another 50%, hell another 99% would Still get gains!
I guess it begs the question of: What % of your dps do you think it ought be?
0 -
Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭All games have a lot of content designed for the 'floor' and a little content designed for the 'ceiling'. If you really want to do the stuff designed for the 'ceiling' you best get climbing the ladder, those people have dedicated years perfecting stuff to be at that level.
15-20k is easily achievable my smashing your LA button then hitting a skill every second or two, which is enough for 80-90% of the content in the game, if you want more you have to learn your class, learn the combat system, learn the mechanics so aye... git gud
@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The game has already bringed floor and ceiling close enough to the point there is few hard modes left that average players cant complete with more or less effort.
That is just soooo wrong. The vet DLC dungeons and especially their HM versions have been clearly designed for the top 5% players and and only doable by those top 5% . That's ok as a design choice (there needs to be an incentive for progress for those who enjoy... well.. progression) but to pretend that they're easy or not make a real difference between players is just plain and flatout wrong.
What is wrong is that you dont understand what you read. Have I said that every HM is beatable by average players ? Read once again what I said and rethink Your comment please.
Btw fact that 5% of population did something doesnt mean that 5% of population is capable of doing that thing. Also I am pretty sure You just maded up that 5% and You have no idea how much people completed new DLC dungeons on HM.
Side note , In my opinion vet Scalecaller Peak HM currently is easy enough to complete even for average players. They'll struggle few hours but they'll get it.
Edited by Juhasow on May 1, 2018 5:02PM0 -
Thorstienn✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »]
I guess it begs the question of: What % of your dps do you think it ought be?
As far as a total % that's tough as as it stands with no ther change than a reduction in LA, it would reduce total DPS too.
We just got a 20% reduction this patch and I think it should of been another 20%, bringing an average LA down from 10-12k to 6-8k. It would still be a top contributer to our DPS.
But honestly, they already brought it down. Ultimately that's all I asked for.0