JD2013 wrote: »

If ZOS are forced to remove crown crates, then they will have to come up with other things to make more money.

I guarantee you that people will be begging them to bring back crown crates with some of the stuff a company could do to make more money in a game.

Dragath wrote: »

crown crates are gambling in belgium, the ruling is clear on that part.
a much more important question is, how will germany rule on that front, because germany is the big player in the EU.
their ruling will most likely decide the future of loot boxes in europe.

JD2013 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.

Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

Now, I don't buy them, I don't care for them, but I don't understand this obsession with eliminating them.

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Notice the conditional clause - "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies. And yet people still go ahead in full and good knowledge of this, and press that buy button anyhow.

The consumer knows what they are getting into. And go ahead anyhoo.

Now, it is, of course, a thing that they could just put everything in the crown store. Bam. Done. But there's no guarantee of how many people would buy said product if they did. Crown Crates must be doing well, or else they would not keep doing it.

And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

Crown Crates are anti-consumer because they lock highly desirable products (see: radiant apex mounts) behind RNG with extremely low drop rates, in the hopes of compelling people to spend far more than they would if they offered the same product for a fixed rate. It is manipulative and predatory, and therefore anti-consumer, pro-corporation. See: the people who spent thousands trying to get the Plague Husk Horse. I can guarantee you that the same mount would not have sold in the Crown store for an equivalent price. ZOS is thousands of dollars richer from a few consumers who did not even get the item they were attempting to purchase. Anti-consumer, pro-corporation.

Addiction is a disease, not a personal failing. I’m not offended by your lack of understanding, but I’d encourage you to do a bit of unbiased reading on the subject in medical journals/textbooks before blaming people for an unfortunate consequence of genetic susceptibility.

Actually, as someone who suffers from depression and anxieties, as well as having a couple of bad habits (smoker being the worst) I understand all too well the differences between disease and personality failings. I also understand that it is my responsibility to keep myself away from that black cloud, and nobody else's, as it is my responsibility to break my bad habits. Again, nobody else's. Because I, as an individual am responsible for myself.

As for anti-consumer, again I rebuke your description for the very simple reason of you using the old manipulative and predatory trope.

People who play these crates, I am sure, know that they stand a low chance of gaining a HQ item. And yet they still buy them. I would also actually argue that none of the products are also that desirable. They are cosmetic additions that do nothing to contribute towards the actual gameplay.

If someone is willing to spend hundreds of dollars to get a digital item for a game that will one day shut down and be lost to the ages, well that, to me, is foolish. A fool and his money are soon parted.

danno8 wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Do they though? What are your chances of getting "that item" you want? That's one of the problems. You don't actually know what you chances are.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

But children do. An although certainly parent play the biggest role in this, If I were to look up the ESRB rating for ESO, I get this:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=33311&Title=The+Elder+Scrolls+Online

The "Mature" rating, which according to ESRB means "Blood and Gore, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence". Pretty bad, but I think most of us would find the level of those things in ESO to be pretty tame. My teenager could handle it. She's pretty well grounded in reality in my parental opinion.

But notice how loot crates aren't mentioned at all on the page?

To buy crates you literally have to go onto the account page and enter credit card details to buy crowns, and then you have to go back into the game to spend those crowns.

Unless you have crowns already.

If you allow a teenager access to your bank or credit card, well then that is up to you. Beware the risks that might come with it.

Aurielle wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.

Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

Now, I don't buy them, I don't care for them, but I don't understand this obsession with eliminating them.

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Notice the conditional clause - "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies. And yet people still go ahead in full and good knowledge of this, and press that buy button anyhow.

The consumer knows what they are getting into. And go ahead anyhoo.

Now, it is, of course, a thing that they could just put everything in the crown store. Bam. Done. But there's no guarantee of how many people would buy said product if they did. Crown Crates must be doing well, or else they would not keep doing it.

And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

Crown Crates are anti-consumer because they lock highly desirable products (see: radiant apex mounts) behind RNG with extremely low drop rates, in the hopes of compelling people to spend far more than they would if they offered the same product for a fixed rate. It is manipulative and predatory, and therefore anti-consumer, pro-corporation. See: the people who spent thousands trying to get the Plague Husk Horse. I can guarantee you that the same mount would not have sold in the Crown store for an equivalent price. ZOS is thousands of dollars richer from a few consumers who did not even get the item they were attempting to purchase. Anti-consumer, pro-corporation.

Addiction is a disease, not a personal failing. I’m not offended by your lack of understanding, but I’d encourage you to do a bit of unbiased reading on the subject in medical journals/textbooks before blaming people for an unfortunate consequence of genetic susceptibility.

Actually, as someone who suffers from depression and anxieties, as well as having a couple of bad habits (smoker being the worst) I understand all too well the differences between disease and personality failings. I also understand that it is my responsibility to keep myself away from that black cloud, and nobody else's, as it is my responsibility to break my bad habits. Again, nobody else's. Because I, as an individual am responsible for myself.

As for anti-consumer, again I rebuke your description for the very simple reason of you using the old manipulative and predatory trope.

People who play these crates, I am sure, know that they stand a low chance of gaining a HQ item. And yet they still buy them. I would also actually argue that none of the products are also that desirable. They are cosmetic additions that do nothing to contribute towards the actual gameplay.

If someone is willing to spend hundreds of dollars to get a digital item for a game that will one day shut down and be lost to the ages, well that, to me, is foolish. A fool and his money are soon parted.

danno8 wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Do they though? What are your chances of getting "that item" you want? That's one of the problems. You don't actually know what you chances are.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

But children do. An although certainly parent play the biggest role in this, If I were to look up the ESRB rating for ESO, I get this:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=33311&Title=The+Elder+Scrolls+Online

The "Mature" rating, which according to ESRB means "Blood and Gore, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence". Pretty bad, but I think most of us would find the level of those things in ESO to be pretty tame. My teenager could handle it. She's pretty well grounded in reality in my parental opinion.

But notice how loot crates aren't mentioned at all on the page?

To buy crates you literally have to go onto the account page and enter credit card details to buy crowns, and then you have to go back into the game to spend those crowns.

Unless you have crowns already.

If you allow a teenager access to your bank or credit card, well then that is up to you. Beware the risks that might come with it.

Actually, you don’t understand the difference if you characterize smoking as a “bad habit.” I’m not going to argue with you on this. Please read up on the pathophysiological process of addiction in reputable, peer-reviewed medical sources before making unsubstantiated claims. You help NO ONE who suffers from addiction by insinuating that it’s “their fault” and that they can simply exercise “free will” if a company preys upon their addiction with no regulation whatsoever. Managing addiction is an intensely difficult process that usually requires a combination of pharmacology, sustained individual effort, AND family/community support.

Believe it or not, there are some countries out there that look out for and support their citizens, rather than merely bowing to the almighty dollar.

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

There's no such thing as loot boxes in supermarkets or amazon etc. If they were a real thing it would be a comparison, but it isn't so ... Not a comparison.

*facepalm*

You asked how they're anti-consumer.
They're anti-consumer because "a chance"
There's a reason there aren't "chances" in supermarkets or Amazon, etc
Because that's anti-consumer

Do you not see the correlation yet?

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

If they are so anti consumer, then why do so many consumers partake? Clearly they don't see it as anti consumer?

I wouldn't say clearly. That probably has multiple reasons.

• Completionists/OCD (they buy to fill gaps in the collection)
• Addictive personalities (they buy for the thrill of RNG)
• Self control/restraint (they know they don't need it, but can't help themselves)
• S**s and giggles (they buy just because they can/show off)

Not a complete list but just ones I can think of at the moment. All of which can be predatory in nature.

Illurian wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

crown crates are gambling in belgium, the ruling is clear on that part.
a much more important question is, how will germany rule on that front, because germany is the big player in the EU.
their ruling will most likely decide the future of loot boxes in europe.

That's fair, and especially if the entire EU rules lootboxes as illegal, we might see some change.

But how will/can ZOS approach this ruling? Removing the sale of crown crates from Belgium consumers? How does that work? Is it even possible?

If this ruling is taken seriously, I could see ZOS simply removing crown crates from the EU servers entirely. I just hope in this scenario that they would at least add the crown crate items to the crown store. (But imagine the uproar that would cause!)

DanteYoda wrote: »

Crown crates are illegal and will need to go.

Illurian wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

crown crates are gambling in belgium, the ruling is clear on that part.
a much more important question is, how will germany rule on that front, because germany is the big player in the EU.
their ruling will most likely decide the future of loot boxes in europe.

That's fair, and especially if the entire EU rules lootboxes as illegal, we might see some change.

But how will/can ZOS approach this ruling? Removing the sale of crown crates from Belgium consumers? How does that work? Is it even possible?

If this ruling is taken seriously, I could see ZOS simply removing crown crates from the EU servers entirely. I just hope in this scenario that they would at least add the crown crate items to the crown store. (But imagine the uproar that would cause!)