Aliyavana wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

rynth wrote: »

It is not ZOS job to monitor this or enforce any rule it’s common sense. If you are going to use crown store gift it to someone for gold you are taking that risk of getting screwed over. It is YOUR responsibility to make choice of taking risk or not. I’m sure there will be adult kids cry in general discussion about getting screwed over and bottom line is it’s their own fault.

I would suggest if you do this then you make your transactions with people you know and trust only.

No, what's common sense is that ZOS should take control of the situation. If they want to allow people to trade crown gifts for gold, it should be done in a proper setting. That way there will be less problems.

Which would you prefer? Something to help prevent fires from starting? Or spending all your time putting out fires?

How would they do that though? And how would they do this without messing up actual gifting?

If they are not able to protect all parties in a transaction, then they shouldn't take sides. And if you are going to protect only people trading crowns for gold, then you might as well just set up an exchange like the one GW2 has and leave gifting alone.

Because a "trade window" only works if you are trading actual things. What if you are trading a Skyreach carry? Or a vMoL skin? How do you protect both parties involved in this case? What if the person "buying" these services lies about having crowns? Is ZOS supposed to bill their credit card for the amount that the complainant says they are owed? Who should they believe?

This is about trading crown to gold services, not other things that can't easily be monitored

But that's the thing. How many people will actually buy gold with crowns rather than buy services? The services are more valuable in ESO than gold is. So you are trying to protect a minority of people that would be affected by such a practice.

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I can't see any way this wont happen, even if ZOS says it's not allowed people are going to do it because there is no way for them to really track who is and isn't friends.

I will say that if it does happen a lot at least it's a legitimate way for players to buy gold with the money going to ZOS and not encouraging botting and crime via gold sellers.

still dont understand why zos doesnt sell in-game gold ---- that would instantly get rid of the gold sellers

Because then the gold sellers just sell gold for less, so the people who were using them, still use them.

Phage wrote: »

Eyro wrote: »

Yup. Which is more cost effective. To spend hours trying to figure out scam complaints, or just say sorry this is against the rules bye now.

Well that's not really accurate. They can also decide it's not against the rules. Even if they did make it against TOS, it wouldn't keep people from doing it, and they'd end up lodging complaints anyway - so that is the real issue. Their Support time would still go to solving problems caused by a lack of framework.

So a more accurate comparison is spending man-hours sorting complaints, vs integrating "CS gift for X" trading into the existing UI scheme.

One is an on-going expenditure. One is not.

One is cost effective. One is not.

One would only clean up problems. One would help prevent them from starting in the first place.

At this point, I think ZOS is more likely to codify "CS gifts for X", if only to save themselves the headache of enforcing a TOS ban on it.

Or maybe they should say it's against the TOS and if someone complains that they got "scammed" by gifting something and not getting whatever they wanted in return, they get banned. That seems very efficient to me.

Eyro wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Eyro wrote: »

Yup. Which is more cost effective. To spend hours trying to figure out scam complaints, or just say sorry this is against the rules bye now.

Well that's not really accurate. They can also decide it's not against the rules. Even if they did make it against TOS, it wouldn't keep people from doing it, and they'd end up lodging complaints anyway - so that is the real issue. Their Support time would still go to solving problems caused by a lack of framework.

So a more accurate comparison is spending man-hours sorting complaints, vs integrating "CS gift for X" trading into the existing UI scheme.

One is an on-going expenditure. One is not.

One is cost effective. One is not.

One would only clean up problems. One would help prevent them from starting in the first place.

At this point, I think ZOS is more likely to codify "CS gifts for X", if only to save themselves the headache of enforcing a TOS ban on it.

Who would get banned? So you are saying people would willing break the rules, then report themselves because they got scammed, just so they could get suspended?

If they make it against the rules, no one is going to report being scammed, because they don’t want to get banned. Easiest way.

Unless of course they make a secure in game way to do it. But until that happens I imagine it will be against the tos.

Either they report for being scammed, or other people report on the same basis as reporting bots and goldsellers.

Either way, it clogs up Support with more tickets.

driosketch wrote: »

Putting in an interface such as CoD gold for crown items means ZOS would basically sanction such practice. Let's assume, however, ZOS does not want to do that. So we have crown item gifting and no way to stop trades of gold for items. Basically, buyer/seller beware, just like Skyreach runs. The only other option is to just not allow gifting crown items.

By not amending the TOS to make it illicit, ZOS would already sanction the practice.

They're still silent on the issue, so I can't say what their intentions are just yet.

What I do know is that if they don't intend to make it against TOS, they should make it possible to trade through the trading UI. Leaving it up to the players is the worst thing they could do, and I guarantee that if they go that route, we'll be back here before the year is out, with more problems of scams, and more people clamoring for it to be added to the trading UI.

What do you think the crown-to-gold exchange rate will be if the program were implemented today? How much gold will one crown get you?

“Selling dro ma tha mount 4 million gold”

DoctorESO wrote: »

What do you think the crown-to-gold exchange rate will be if the program were implemented today? How much gold will one crown get you?

If I had to put a number, it'd be something in the ballpark of 800-1000 crowns for 100,000 gold.

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I can't see any way this wont happen, even if ZOS says it's not allowed people are going to do it because there is no way for them to really track who is and isn't friends.

I will say that if it does happen a lot at least it's a legitimate way for players to buy gold with the money going to ZOS and not encouraging botting and crime via gold sellers.

still dont understand why zos doesnt sell in-game gold ---- that would instantly get rid of the gold sellers

It does, it is just not called selling gold to avoid negative responses. Instead of buying X amount of gold, you pay ZOS to cover some gold expense for you.
For example, you could buy X gold for dollars and then pay X gold for respec, which is something players do all the time, but instead you pay dollars for respec, gold is seemingly not invovled, but at the end of the day you end up with X gold more in your pocket (that is why you paid with dollars for respec after all) and both you and ZOS can pretend cash to gold transaction did not take place.
ZOS run many similar schemes.

Phage wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Putting in an interface such as CoD gold for crown items means ZOS would basically sanction such practice. Let's assume, however, ZOS does not want to do that. So we have crown item gifting and no way to stop trades of gold for items. Basically, buyer/seller beware, just like Skyreach runs. The only other option is to just not allow gifting crown items.

By not amending the TOS to make it illicit, ZOS would already sanction the practice.

They're still silent on the issue, so I can't say what their intentions are just yet.

What I do know is that if they don't intend to make it against TOS, they should make it possible to trade through the trading UI. Leaving it up to the players is the worst thing they could do, and I guarantee that if they go that route, we'll be back here before the year is out, with more problems of scams, and more people clamoring for it to be added to the trading UI.

Here's a thought...

They want the scams to happen so that we are the ones who ask for a secure gold > crowns exchange. They can then implement what they had in mind all along because "the players want it."

Too cynical?

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

This can really turn in game into P2W of you can buy gold for crowns

How does exchanging crown for gold make the game p2w? Its not like BiS gear is expensive considering most of it is drops and second BiS gear is cheap gold wise. So how is this possibly p2w? Do tell.

Buying gold mats, buying BiS gear from traders or even from other players in trial drops, which can be very rare and wanted by many people so its prices go up. Changing builds cam be very expensive too from changing/buying/upgrading gear to enchantments to respecing skills or attributes

yeah thats not p2w. P2W means i can obtain with real money something you cannot obtain in game. IE: gold mats were only available for crowns. But gold mats are not that difficult to get. As for buying gear from traders, that gear is relatively easy to make and most people have a crafting character. As for buying trial gear from another group member, just run the trial more. With transmute you dont have to farm the perfect piece, you just have to farm the piece.

Rich players can already do all this and its not exactly difficult to make gold in this game.

I mostly agree, but I think p2w also includes things that are advantageous to have, but obscenely difficult for the average person to obtain. vMA staves, for instance, aren't pay-to-win despite being in content behind a paywall, because most people can't get through the arena; if they were to just sell them directly on the crown store, however, that's p2w.

I don't think there's anything particularly difficult to obtain that can be bought instead for gold, if gifts-to-gold trading is permitted; not even the weekly golden vendor items are that fancy, and 100,000 gold can be gotten just by farming a dungeon for a few days prior to seeing what you want pop up in her shop. They really have nothing to lose by just adding crown gifts to the trading interface we already have; I'm with you on that one.

Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom