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Defiles and Balance
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NobleX35✭✭✭✭I almost do nothing but play pvp, and I almost completely disagree with everything you have said. I think defile and the befoul cp tree are fine for the most part. All of your suggestions would completely nerf defile into the ground similarly to the way ZoS has implemented nerfs in the past (constitution, wrath, sustain, proc sets, etc.). You’re basically asking for a quadruple nerf...
1. You want to change all majors (except for ultimates) into minors
2. You want to nerf the base values to 25% and 10%
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree which would mean less perks for damage and or healing
4. You want to nerf the befoul perk itself by 10% at cap.
These suggestions are absolutely ridiculous, and you might as well take the debuff out of the game. With all the healbots and tankbots, and even just healing potential for regular players, defile is the only good counter.
The only suggestion that could potentially be implemented would be to nerf the befoul cap by 10%. I’m not even sure that is really necessary. Everything else is just absolutely ridiculous.
Are you running Durok‘s?
Actually no...my main character is a stamplar running 2 blood spawn, 5 Impreg, and 5 ravager.
He can cleanse, thats why he is against the changes
Your statement makes no sense...by that logic I should not care at all if it gets nerfed since it already doesn’t affect me.
My two alts are a stamdk and stamblade, both of whom do have access to major defile and both whom place more reliance on the debuff. Of the three classes, my stamdk depends on defile the most in order to be competitive...since stamdks have the worst burst potential.Edited by NobleX35 on April 24, 2018 5:26PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
lazerlaz✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »Just to put this into perspective, if you're playing a dps Magplar in PvP, it takes almost a complete magicka pool to purify off all the debuffs being applied to you and heal to a decent amount. The other day it took me about 4 purifies + 6 BoLs to go from 10% to 80% HP. This is just another issue with Magplar, when we're forced defensive, it becomes increasingly hard to go back to offense. Defile is out of control right now, anyone defending it knows it, but doesn't want to lose it.
Talk to sorcs about the forced defense feeling before they can go offensive. Dude everyone has to defense up sometimes before they can finally do offense. This is not new and how it should me. Did you die during the insane amount of purifies and BOLs you cast? No. Job well done.
Sorry you can't do it forever.1 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.1 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs."Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes
Most classes have other means than the few you listed of obtaining vitality or mending buffs. Also blessed and quick recovery are flat percentage increases, where as befoul is a percentage increase of a percentage. The significance is far less.
It is not op enough to warrant a quadruple nerf. With the changes to critical healing next patch, I’m not saying defile shouldn’t maybe be looked at. I am saying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground."Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes
Most classes have other means than the few you listed of obtaining vitality or mending buffs. Also blessed and quick recovery are flat percentage increases, where as befoul is a percentage increase of a percentage. The significance is far less.
It is not op enough to warrant a quadruple nerf. With the changes to critical healing next patch, I’m not saying defile shouldn’t maybe be looked at. I am saying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground.
The suggested nerfs doesn't kill defiles but it makes them actually balanced.
If you build for defiles you can still reach great heal reduction but you can't get it for free on any build0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes
Most classes have other means than the few you listed of obtaining vitality or mending buffs. Also blessed and quick recovery are flat percentage increases, where as befoul is a percentage increase of a percentage. The significance is far less.
It is not op enough to warrant a quadruple nerf. With the changes to critical healing next patch, I’m not saying defile shouldn’t maybe be looked at. I am saying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground.
The suggested nerfs doesn't kill defiles but it makes them actually balanced.
If you build for defiles you can still reach great heal reduction but you can't get it for free on any build
I’m really glad you’re not in charge of balance...you are proposing a QUADRUPLE nerf and think that it won’t kill defile."Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes
Most classes have other means than the few you listed of obtaining vitality or mending buffs. Also blessed and quick recovery are flat percentage increases, where as befoul is a percentage increase of a percentage. The significance is far less.
It is not op enough to warrant a quadruple nerf. With the changes to critical healing next patch, I’m not saying defile shouldn’t maybe be looked at. I am saying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground.
The suggested nerfs doesn't kill defiles but it makes them actually balanced.
If you build for defiles you can still reach great heal reduction but you can't get it for free on any build
I’m really glad you’re not in charge of balance...you are proposing a QUADRUPLE nerf and think that it won’t kill defile.
Do you still think that the number of nerfs determines the effect of those changes?
I'm sorry to tell you that nerfs are not measured by their amount but by their actual effect0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes
Most classes have other means than the few you listed of obtaining vitality or mending buffs. Also blessed and quick recovery are flat percentage increases, where as befoul is a percentage increase of a percentage. The significance is far less.
It is not op enough to warrant a quadruple nerf. With the changes to critical healing next patch, I’m not saying defile shouldn’t maybe be looked at. I am saying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground.
The suggested nerfs doesn't kill defiles but it makes them actually balanced.
If you build for defiles you can still reach great heal reduction but you can't get it for free on any build
I’m really glad you’re not in charge of balance...you are proposing a QUADRUPLE nerf and think that it won’t kill defile.
Do you still think that the number of nerfs determines the effect of those changes?
I'm sorry to tell you that nerfs are not measured by their amount but by their actual effect
And your effects are ridiculous.
1. You want limited access to major defile to where it’s basically only on ultimates...this is a massive nerf since it will be almost non existent in the game, or at the very least have extremely low uptimes.
2. You want to then nerf the base values so they are not only rarely up, but aren’t as significant when they are up.
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree so that no one will really increase the effectiveness because that would sacrificing both extra damage and extra healing.
4. Lastly you want to nerf the perk that no one will invest in anymore because of your previous change...even further reducing the effectiveness.
Please tell me how these changes are reasonable..."Only the dead have seen the end of war."2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭in my opinion defile should be a counter to mending, meaning it should have maximal the same numbers as mending, minor defile would be then 8% and major defile 25%. that would be the right definition by ZoS for a counter. therefore befoul shouldnt strenghten the defile debuffs, but should be a flat value of healing decreased on enemies hit (for example with light attacks like siphoner). also should befoul be the counter for the cp passives quick recovery or blesses, surely not both. i want to see defile in that way balanced, so that the healing of somebody with major mending would be the same affected by major defile as if the player had no mending at all, but he shouldnt have decreased healing.
Major vitality is the direct counter to major defile. Increase healing received vs decreased healing received. The base numbers are fine and fitting...especially when you consider that defile is really the only counter to both mending and vitality. One debuff vs two buffs.
Yeah great one class has access to both and that is magnb with a resto stave and soul siphon.
Let's compare the uptime:
Major defile ~ 100%
Major vitality ~ 3.5 seconds every 150 ult
Major mending ~ 100% if you keep spamming resto heavy attacks
That looks like balance also look up the math some post ago it shows that even with all healing buffs a non crit when defiles are applied is smaller than a heal with no amplifiers and no defile.
Sounds about balanced when it's much harder to get the healing buffs as well as linked to much higher opportunity cost. While you can have a high uptime of strong defiles with Minimum opportunity cost that opens up the opportunity for tanky builds to kill offensive builds which is the opposite of what they intended to do with the changes
Most classes have other means than the few you listed of obtaining vitality or mending buffs. Also blessed and quick recovery are flat percentage increases, where as befoul is a percentage increase of a percentage. The significance is far less.
It is not op enough to warrant a quadruple nerf. With the changes to critical healing next patch, I’m not saying defile shouldn’t maybe be looked at. I am saying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground.
The suggested nerfs doesn't kill defiles but it makes them actually balanced.
If you build for defiles you can still reach great heal reduction but you can't get it for free on any build
I’m really glad you’re not in charge of balance...you are proposing a QUADRUPLE nerf and think that it won’t kill defile.
Do you still think that the number of nerfs determines the effect of those changes?
I'm sorry to tell you that nerfs are not measured by their amount but by their actual effect
And your effects are ridiculous.
1. You want limited access to major defile to where it’s basically only on ultimates...this is a massive nerf since it will be almost non existent in the game, or at the very least have extremely low uptimes.
2. You want to then nerf the base values so they are not only rarely up, but aren’t as significant when they are up.
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree so that no one will really increase the effectiveness because that would sacrificing both extra damage and extra healing.
4. Lastly you want to nerf the perk that no one will invest in anymore because of your previous change...even further reducing the effectiveness.
Please tell me how these changes are reasonable...
The classes have very bad uptime on major mending or major vitality:
Templar: none
NB: only major vitality via 150 ult
DK: only major mending via costly skill
Sorc: None
Warden: Major mending via passives
When these classes have their buffs up for the short time they have their effectiveness would still be massively reduced by minor defile.
These changes are there to bring the same opportunity cost to defiles that we currently have for extra healing.0
