My Rant About Defile and Other "Build Counters"

Wuuffyy · April 2018

I love how YOU ALL are saying that the cause is befoul. It's not. It goes up to 55% which takes the typical major defile from 30 to roughly 46%. Cool.

You are saying that it's also buffing minor defile by at most another 9% which comes to about 23%. WITH 100 POINTS IN THAT STAR.

Okay. Consider this:

All sources of major defile (except incap) require you to slot a skill/armor set that is either very situational or causes you to lose actual damage in the process (usually by a lot) and open yourself up to a hard CC.

You can't even consider minor defile and here is why: Nothing gives this (Not disease enchants, incap, dark flare, lethal, or ANYTHING). It's literally FASALLAS (5m range and 0 damage buffs) or THOR-WHATEVER monster set from the Dragon Bones DLC (Stationary AOE... LOL). Not even applicable.

Where is your real issue when it comes to defile? Remember that cp star they added a few patches back? The one that took your recov away. Well, they buffed that to take EVERYTHING away which means your healing included. Roughly 40-50 points in that is a hard 10% nerf to your healing and sustain... Counter: Kite It? Technically but no. It's to easy too apply. But that's not your only problem. Every pug open world runs sustain poisons on top of this for x v 1 ing. The problem posed by this is you can't afford to heal any longer and when the defile is put on you, it becomes impossible.

You could get it off, but... Then there is a snipe glitcher in the back. LOL.

What they need to do: Take what they did to BUFF off-balance AND then NERF Defile... Standardize the Defile time to 5 seconds (6 max). Now, the worst offender: Nightblades and their low cost incap. SURE, this move really isn't OP. It's low cost and needed for PVE and provides much needed utility for a burst-focused class. In duels and small scale this is fine. You sometimes might need it to kill someone and move on. HOWEVER, the problem is that whatever you use, the zergs can AND WILL use it also. Therefore you have zergs popping incaps left and right with nothing to worry about because they have healers and tanks and their little beady-eyed pugs. This needs to be changed.

AGAIN:

Standardize the Defiles to 5 seconds.

Change the siphon-er CP star (it's too meta and we hate meta, RIGHT?!).

Take the frikin Major Defile off Incap. Instead, to keep the utility the same, turn it to either physical damage (to synergize with more damage sets) or to poison damage and have proc the poison status effect everytime (yes IK about the argonian, wood-elf, etc. immunities, IDC). Keep the base ability the same and turn soul harvest into shock damage and have it always apply the status effect (8% damage increase... Still relevant but not OP, not OP in PVE b/c it's already placed on by good groups).

Consider reworking the way that particular poison (resource drain) works. The people using it are either cheese puffs in duels or x v 1 ers that are lacking damage or knowledge of how to run someone out of sustain naturally. 30% this patch is STILL TOO STRONG. Nerfing this to about 20% (in line with KENA which BTW... Still destroys your resources) would help tremondously (especially if you keep the siphon-er star which was released alongside said poison anyway).

Lastly, you need to rework your bash immunites... They're cool but I don't think they are the way you intended them to be. Sure it helps to have dark deal and sure it's nice for blood altar (whatever). But it's being using on: radiant (which is a strong executed that never faced an issue with being bashed constantly), and you can take a CC and turn it into other peoples nightmares (CCs should cause you to recover, not become even stronger.

Lastly, fix the darn snipe glitching --- THREE YEARS IN GUYS, common!

DuskMarine · April 2018

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

Wuuffyy · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

And that's fine sir. I said standarize it not remove it. I didn't say adjust the values or anything. I'm just requesting the skill be put back into it. And if your complaining about my incap comment, I understand where you're coming from. I have a general flawless nightblade I have mained for 2 years, however, nearly everyone agrees it needs a nerf. This is the way to do it.

DuskMarine · April 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

And that's fine sir. I said standarize it not remove it. I didn't say adjust the values or anything. I'm just requesting the skill be put back into it. And if your complaining about my incap comment, I understand where you're coming from. I have a general flawless nightblade I have mained for 2 years, however, nearly everyone agrees it needs a nerf. This is the way to do it.

i just think that sure standardize it but if it gets any sort of weaker as zos likes to nerf things more than balance. at least nerf templars bol super burst on crit some to make up for it. anything to keep heal ball meta away

Wuuffyy · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

And that's fine sir. I said standarize it not remove it. I didn't say adjust the values or anything. I'm just requesting the skill be put back into it. And if your complaining about my incap comment, I understand where you're coming from. I have a general flawless nightblade I have mained for 2 years, however, nearly everyone agrees it needs a nerf. This is the way to do it.

i just think that sure standardize it but if it gets any sort of weaker as zos likes to nerf things more than balance. at least nerf templars bol super burst on crit some to make up for it. anything to keep heal ball meta away

You know that would be great but the last time the nerfed something they gave them power of the light and made jabs undodgeable. UGH!

DuskMarine · April 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

And that's fine sir. I said standarize it not remove it. I didn't say adjust the values or anything. I'm just requesting the skill be put back into it. And if your complaining about my incap comment, I understand where you're coming from. I have a general flawless nightblade I have mained for 2 years, however, nearly everyone agrees it needs a nerf. This is the way to do it.

i just think that sure standardize it but if it gets any sort of weaker as zos likes to nerf things more than balance. at least nerf templars bol super burst on crit some to make up for it. anything to keep heal ball meta away

You know that would be great but the last time the nerfed something they gave them power of the light and made jabs undodgeable. UGH!

jabs being undodgeable isnt that bad to be honest(since jesus beam can still shoot through stuff even if you line of sight them after they cast) power of the light.........yea that was......well........stupid and unneeded they coulda changed something else.

IAVITNI · April 2018

The real problem with Major Defile is the uptime and ease of access. Reverb bash and Snipe are 2 very popular skills and 1h and Shield is meta so nobody is sacrificing anything in their builds to access it.

Then add in the fact that you can keep the rebuffs up 100% of the time going through your normal rotation. Reverb is no different from Fossilize, Javelin or Fear which deal low damage but are used primarily for the CC. Preventing a player from properly playing 100% of the time is not healthy gameplay.

Checkmath · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

And that's fine sir. I said standarize it not remove it. I didn't say adjust the values or anything. I'm just requesting the skill be put back into it. And if your complaining about my incap comment, I understand where you're coming from. I have a general flawless nightblade I have mained for 2 years, however, nearly everyone agrees it needs a nerf. This is the way to do it.

i just think that sure standardize it but if it gets any sort of weaker as zos likes to nerf things more than balance. at least nerf templars bol super burst on crit some to make up for it. anything to keep heal ball meta away

Only templar haters here? Btw breath pf life sees a double nerf with summerset: the additional heal was nerfed and the templars passive increasing crit damage will not count anymore for healing. Bol will be the less used morph now, so a think enough of the nerfs for the templar healing.
About the defile: there are too many sources of defile compared to mending or vitality. Actually only one reverb bash is enough to decrease every healing to a state, which is lower than the base value. Also the uptime of defile is incredible. This debuff shouldnt excel 50% uptime for a temporary advantage. All those major defile sources are too prominent. No stamina toon with a shield will enter pvp without that skill...

Anazasi · April 2018

warden corrupting pollen. Largest AOE ground based source of persistent Major defile in game second to a meat bag and no one is saying a word about it. This entire defile train now has 2 threads and it's based on the lazy who don't want to use purge.

Checkmath · April 2018

Anazasi wrote: »

warden corrupting pollen. Largest AOE ground based source of persistent Major defile in game second to a meat bag and no one is saying a word about it. This entire defile train now has 2 threads and it's based on the lazy who don't want to use purge.

purge is either a skill belonging to templars or to a skill removing only 2 effects (mostly not those you want to be removed), costs a *** of magicka and is only viable in actually coordinated group play. pvp is not only about coordinated groupplay like ballgroups do, so you should reconsider what you said, because its utter nonsense.

Feanor · April 2018

Anazasi wrote: »

warden corrupting pollen. Largest AOE ground based source of persistent Major defile in game second to a meat bag and no one is saying a word about it. This entire defile train now has 2 threads and it's based on the lazy who don't want to use purge.

It’s based on the players who don’t want to zerg up and that acknowledge a 5,100 base cost skill that gets rid of 2 harmful effects (which you cannot choose and that means you’re not getting rid of the defile for sure) isn’t effective. If the solution is to run a big group or to be a Templar then something isn’t right.

Anazasi · April 2018

Well my nonsense promotes actual counters and balance to group play of anysize. All the anti-defilers want is another easy button because they can't actually counter real game mechanics.

Next everyone will be complaining about "Borrowed Time" OMG a heal negate what was ZOS thinking. NERF IT NERF IT it cost magicka....

Checkmath · April 2018

balance is not when everyone is forced run in a group with purgers...balance is when everyone can do whatever he wants to a certain degree and be successful to a certain degree. but you propose a counter to a mechanic, which isnt an option for 80% of the players. and purge isnt a counter, when you need to be lucky to remove defile with it...you know how many negative effects usually are used in a fight? 5-15, so good luck with purging away exactly defile, while there are dots, snares, maims, ele drain or whatever is on you.

Murador178 · April 2018

Anazasi wrote: »

warden corrupting pollen. Largest AOE ground based source of persistent Major defile in game second to a meat bag and no one is saying a word about it. This entire defile train now has 2 threads and it's based on the lazy who don't want to use purge.

Yeah ur ballgroup probably has a purge bot

So I dont count ballgroup players as PvP players anyways. They are just there to ruin performance. This game is not intended for big zergs or they need to get sever performance done. Before that balance SHOULDNT be around big groups.

My ideas for PvP: Scale every ability like prox det vs multiple players:

- zergs need to be at risk fighting solos --> this will also reduce lag when 2 balls hit each other since they will die instant.
- players getting hit by more than 5 players in the last 5 sec dont reward ANY AP

Mihael · April 2018

Did they introduce a new set in summer set that puts you in a full raid with multiple healers so you don’t have to worry about sustaining yourself ?

usmguy1234 · April 2018

It's a two edged sword. You need defile to deal with heal ball groups. The double edge is defile is too strong solo but too weak against a zerg. If you increase defile strength, you just push the zerg mentality even harder because you can't survive without one.

I will always stick to this... zerging is the equivalent to the herding mentality in animals. Why do animals herd? Mainly because it increases their changes for survival. Take away the benefits of survival from the group setting and the herds will disperse.

Takes-No-Prisoner · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

The real problem with Major Defile is the uptime and ease of access. Reverb bash and Snipe are 2 very popular skills and 1h and Shield is meta so nobody is sacrificing anything in their builds to access it.

Then add in the fact that you can keep the rebuffs up 100% of the time going through your normal rotation. Reverb is no different from Fossilize, Javelin or Fear which deal low damage but are used primarily for the CC. Preventing a player from properly playing 100% of the time is not healthy gameplay.

^^^

Incap needs the Major Defile as it's part of the over all 'theme' of the NB toolkit. Leave it as is. They're a class built on having high damage output for 1v1 scenarios.

Now, what IAVITNI has mentioned here is where the problem is. Accessibility to Major Defile in two very common weapon lines. You don't even need a defile set, just the weapon and the morph to have access to it. One of which, Lethal Arrow(Snipe morph), which has very little counter play when you are out numbered/being ganked due to no telegraphs/sound tells when it is fired at the enemy target.

DuskMarine · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ok um one thing i guess people really just make you mad with this but you have to look at the reason defile is so largely used and why the debuff is so taxing. and the real reason that defile is so useful in pvp is because of bol that burst heal hitting for a crit ive seen anywhere between 20-30k. thats an instant heal up for a decent level of magicka. but to counter that we need defile that high otherwise well see invincible templar heal balls. so kinda gotta weigh the options there.

And that's fine sir. I said standarize it not remove it. I didn't say adjust the values or anything. I'm just requesting the skill be put back into it. And if your complaining about my incap comment, I understand where you're coming from. I have a general flawless nightblade I have mained for 2 years, however, nearly everyone agrees it needs a nerf. This is the way to do it.

i just think that sure standardize it but if it gets any sort of weaker as zos likes to nerf things more than balance. at least nerf templars bol super burst on crit some to make up for it. anything to keep heal ball meta away

Only templar haters here? Btw breath pf life sees a double nerf with summerset: the additional heal was nerfed and the templars passive increasing crit damage will not count anymore for healing. Bol will be the less used morph now, so a think enough of the nerfs for the templar healing.
About the defile: there are too many sources of defile compared to mending or vitality. Actually only one reverb bash is enough to decrease every healing to a state, which is lower than the base value. Also the uptime of defile is incredible. This debuff shouldnt excel 50% uptime for a temporary advantage. All those major defile sources are too prominent. No stamina toon with a shield will enter pvp without that skill...

im not a templar hater im a templar main. and i even got to say breath of life without major defile being as strong as it is currently would become a heal ball meta. nobody would die to it because a crit off a bol even without that passive can still crit for a rediculous number.

_Ahala_ · April 2018

Leave corrupting pollen alone... a class aoe defile that can be used to weaken zergs, ballgroups, and melee fighters while healing every 6s is key to magden gameplay, for the handful that remain at least ... maybe we can remove other easy sources of defile and tune down the ridiculous cp scaling so it doesn’t reach 69% on top of thorvokun... and yes nerf the ever living daylights out of cost poisons

TequilaFire · April 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

warden corrupting pollen. Largest AOE ground based source of persistent Major defile in game second to a meat bag and no one is saying a word about it. This entire defile train now has 2 threads and it's based on the lazy who don't want to use purge.

Yeah ur ballgroup probably has a purge bot

So I dont count ballgroup players as PvP players anyways. They are just there to ruin performance. This game is not intended for big zergs or they need to get sever performance done. Before that balance SHOULDNT be around big groups.

My ideas for PvP: Scale every ability like prox det vs multiple players:

- zergs need to be at risk fighting solos --> this will also reduce lag when 2 balls hit each other since they will die instant.
- players getting hit by more than 5 players in the last 5 sec dont reward ANY AP

You got it completely backwards, the game was designed for large group fights and not wannbe supermen running around thinking they can kill 24 other players.

Teeba_Shei · April 2018

Not sure about all the content of the OPS post, but I agree the duration needs to come down a bit.