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The Sorry State of Magicka Templars in PvP

jrgray93
jrgray93
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Apologies for the huge wall of text. TL;DR at bottom

Ever since the repeated (and arguably necessary) nerfs to heavy armor, magicka templars have been utter garbage in PvP. We used to be seen as unkillable BoL spammers, which was generally true with constitution and the + spell damage from heavy armor. It was pretty ridiculous. There was little or no reason to use light armor in PvP because templars are the only class in the game without inherent stamina sustain on a magicka build. Stamina sustain is necessary in PvP, especially for a class that has little or no ability to reset a fight or escape.

NBs have a passive +15% recovery. Sorcs get 20%. Magicka Wardens get stamina return from healing and DKs have two sources of inherent stamina sustain in the ridiculous Earthen Heart passives. Magicka templars? Basically nothing. We could slot Radiant Aura / Repent for the passive 10% but that is a waste of a valuable skill slot in PvP. Repentance is nearly useless now that we have to fight each other for bodies. Magicka templars are in a position that forces them, more than any other magicka build, to go for stamina sustain gear of some sort. Amber Plasm and Shacklebreaker come to mind. On a DK, for instance, the sky is the limit when it comes to gear selection. I don't have to worry about running out of stamina because Battle Roar and Helping Hands are more than enough to make sure I can always break free with a little self-control.

The stamina sustain problem wouldn't be that big of a deal if magplars weren't expected to essentially sit still to fight. Our "house" is built of twigs these days because we can no longer mask the shortcomings of our class behind heavy armor. We can still use heavy armor, but we can't really fight back in it. It's defensive only, as it honestly should be. If you want to compete in duels and versatile PvP, you need to be in light armor. Heavy armor magplars are healbots. It can be fun to be a healbot, but it's not fun to be essentially the only class that can't excel without the help of others.

That's the most obvious red flag with the templar, and the most annoying part of playing one. I'm very helpful with allies at my back because I can top off their health while they do their thing. My signature beam compliments any sustained offensive effort if I'm free to cast it. As soon as those allies are gone, I'm left with mediocre damage output and some neat self-heals. No interesting utility, no roots, no effective CC, no effective ultimates, no effective source of major debuffs, such as defile, and yes, no stamina sustain.

Yes, we have Dark Flare for defile, which will be "better" next patch, but Barrage is now the far better morph and landing Dark Flare is nigh-impossible against good players. You can write off the damage portion of the spell half the time, so even having a 100% chance to apply the defile after cast isn't enough to save this spell for PvP. We have interesting burst potential with Purifying Light, but what good is burst if you have no effective defile or stuns in your kit? Despite countless changes, Eclipse still feels clunky and useless, especially with the Total Dark morph doing nothing against CC immune targets. Unstable Core would be decent save for the fact that any player worth their salt is going to go on the defensive while it is up, meaning you're basically just giving the opponent free CC immunity and a telegraph of the next few seconds of combat. Or they can just break out of it and move on.

So we've established that magicka templars are too reliant on allied players and can't sustain stamina well. The stamina issue is compounded by our lack of escape mechanics. Sorcs can blink, NBs can vanish, and Wardens have reduced snare effectiveness, chicken wings, and stamina sustain to help them get away. DKs can root spam or just shrug off the damage while keeping their stamina in check. If a magicka templar is in trouble, they have to claw their way out of it. No speed boosts, no escape mechanics, just stand there and take it. We have good heals, sure, but they are easily hard-countered with defile. Yes, we can play a vampire, but that's yet another bandage solution. Yes, we can cleanse, but what good is cleanse with multiple players smacking away at you? You need that GCD for a burst heal if you want to get away. The magicka templar is one of the fastest classes to crumble when focused.

Our spammable, although I'm eternally grateful we have one (sorry Sorcs), again fits the theme of "good with others." If I'm fighting alone, I have little or no guarantees that I can keep the target in sight of the spell. Anyone with roots can avoid it with ease. I'm better off relying on my direct attacks like Vampire's Bane or Destructive Reach to land hits most of the time. Front-loading the snare would fix this. Give us the 70% on the first hit, not the last. Suddenly people have to work to get out of it.

Our ultimates are a disaster. Crescent Sweep is nice for stamplars in PvP, but Empowering is very unimpressive. The mitigation is decent and the cost is right, but it does little or nothing in terms of damage, especially because it's so hard to land the initial hit. There is no defile like Incap has, so the damage can be shrugged off, anyway. Nova is getting improved somewhat but will still be far too costly and ineffective against anything short of a zerg. Our healing ulti sure does heal. Meteor isn't an effective alternative because we are one of two (unless Permafrost does it) classes that can't break block. The destro ult can be good against zergs but it isn't a good choice for duels, as it has the most obvious telegraph one can imagine. We essentially have to use Soul Assault and hope it hits hard enough to make Power of the Light land a huge hit. If our opponent blocks or shields, it's not going to do much.

So that brings us to the PTS changes. They're good at addressing various unused skills, but our kit is still shoehorning us into a bland role that few people enjoy playing OR fighting in PvP. I will admit I love the Honor the Dead change, but that doesn't change my primary complaints. I don't want to be forced to hide behind my team and spam heals on them. I want to be able to compete in duels as well as being an asset to my team. I don't want to constantly fail to score kills while players escape with cool mechanics, just to turn around and be annihilated the second I find myself outnumbered, because I don't have said cool mechanics. With the current state of the game, I'm outgunned by everyone. There is nothing interesting setting my class aside from others aside from heals and cleanse, both of which being somewhat obtainable through universal skills and gear. My passives generally don't compare to those of other classes, save for a few. Crutchgore alone has given every other class a huge burst heal. I'm forced into fewer sets and loadouts to compete at all. It's boring. It's frustrating.

TL;DR version:
Stamina sustain massively sucks
Ultimates are garbage
Lacks utility (buffs, debuffs)
Lacks effective CC
Abundance of clunky skills
Can't hard reset a fight (healing doesn't count as a reset because the flow of combat hasn't been interrupted)

But hey, at least I can stand behind my NB friend and beam / BoL repeatedly, hoping the enemy team doesn't take notice.
EP: Slania Isara : Harambe Was an Inside Job
  • Aedaryl
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    What bring next patch you didn't spoke about :

    Staff counting as 2 pieces of a set is a huge buff for templars.

    You can have a ligthning staff increasing your jabs by 8%, you will be able to weave easely with good damage and to have undodgeable heavy attack from range.

    You will also have acces to a reach, a good cc.

    You can also use a frost staff and root ennemies, and block with magicka.
  • jrgray93
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    What bring next patch you didn't spoke about :

    Staff counting as 2 pieces of a set is a huge buff for templars.

    You can have a ligthning staff increasing your jabs by 8%, you will be able to weave easely with good damage and to have undodgeable heavy attack from range.

    You will also have acces to a reach, a good cc.

    You can also use a frost staff and root ennemies, and block with magicka.

    I can do all of that already with my vMA and Master staves. So can every other class using a 2h weapon. It's not a magplar buff if it benefits everyone.
    Edited by jrgray93 on April 23, 2018 3:12AM
    EP: Slania Isara : Harambe Was an Inside Job
  • Aedaryl
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    You will able to wear 5/5/2 or 5/5/2/2 now with a staff without problem, and the damage you get from weaving is good.

    Light armor 5 wizard riposte + 5 shackle breaker + 2 skoria + 2 willpower can be great.

    Templar need help, but you don't see the buff you got, [snip], which is bad x)

    [edited to remove inappropriate comment]
    Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on April 23, 2018 12:36PM
  • jrgray93
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    I already weave. I use a master inferno. I use 5 amber plasm, 3/5 riposte with 5/5 on back bar. I'm on back bar enough that it's 100% uptime. I gain nothing from that change. Period.
    EP: Slania Isara : Harambe Was an Inside Job
  • Joy_Division
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    What bring next patch you didn't spoke about :

    Staff counting as 2 pieces of a set is a huge buff for templars.

    You can have a ligthning staff increasing your jabs by 8%, you will be able to weave easely with good damage and to have undodgeable heavy attack from range.

    You will also have acces to a reach, a good cc.

    You can also use a frost staff and root ennemies, and block with magicka.

    It actually isn't. Magplars have been running 5/5/2 forever. If anything the change is a relative nerf to magplar because out Sorcerer and Bightblade opponents who have been using two staffs and they are the ones getting an additional 5 piece set bonus, not magplars.
    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • Gilvoth
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.
  • jrgray93
    jrgray93
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.

    That's an opinion. My opinion is that every class should be able to fill every role. According to the devs, that was the goal to begin with.
    EP: Slania Isara : Harambe Was an Inside Job
  • Gilvoth
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    that's like complaining to the Mechanics that your ambulance just runs like Crap compared to the race cars at a race track.
    you just really badly want to race like the Race cars do but you refuse to use a race car and you demand it be possible with your Ambulance.



    Edited by Gilvoth on April 23, 2018 4:44AM
  • Cinbri
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.
    .
    You might want to google what word Templar means through history.
    Class called Templar, not Cleric and even in Neverwinter Online class Devoted Cleric recieved a huge buff to it damage champion tree, making them as viable dd as healers.
  • Valkysas154
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    that's like complaining to the Mechanics that your ambulance just runs like Crap compared to the race cars at a race track.
    you just really badly want to race like the Race cars do but you refuse to use a race car and you demand it be possible with your Ambulance.



    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2017/2/driving-f1-medical-car-worlds-fastest-ambulance.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVjBjXZctig

  • Rohamad_Ali
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    Buff Templar !
  • lpw
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    For me magplar plays OK at the moment in PVP. With that said though, I welcome the changes to 2h...

    You just have to try and get round things in a different way....

    Want stam sustain? Go to pots or slot glyphs on jewellery. Run tri food for 4-5k more base stam. Put champion points into stam recovery. Think about your priorities and how you play.. Do you really want stam sustain over magicka sustain?

    Sure class ultimates aren't the best for PVP but we have access to other ultimates the same as other classes... Dawnbreaker/Barrier/Lights Champion are all great.

    All classes CAN play all roles, but some roles not as effectively as others. DK is best for tanking. A magplar can play a DD at the moment but it won't be as effective as an NB or sorc. However, both NB and sorc aren't as good on support/heals as magplar.

    I run Wizard's Back Bar / Sun / Skoria / 2 Willpower Front and do great in PVP and BGs. Yeah my stam sustain is terrible but it's about managing it well.
    ///// AD Master Race Since 2014 /////

    Sindri al'Atreyu | Wood Elf Templar
    Eivii | Wood Elf Nightblade
    Saurmia | High Elf Magicka Templar


    PC/EU - Beta Tester
  • Feanor
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.

    ZOS has repeatedly acknowledged that they want every class to be able to do every role - damage dealer, tank, healer. If it were not so we wouldn’t see changes specifically aimed at Nightblade tanks and healers, DK healers, and Sorc Tanks with Update 18. So no, Templars are not supposed to be the healing class. If they were, they wouldn’t see nerf after nerf to their healing abilities (major mending, secondary heal from BoL, etc).

    It’s a perfectly legitimate request to a) get bug fixes for Templar damage dealing abilities and b) make Templars a bit more viable as DDs, especially in PvP.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Checkmath
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.

    sry mate, but that statement is just so wrong and garbage. every other class can do decent healing and tanking and all of them have somewhere damn huge damage included, just not templars. ZoS doesnt want the templar to be THE healer, therefore their statements years ago and coming changes. templar should have damage like every other class, otherwise please take away the damage from warden and dk too.
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    What bring next patch you didn't spoke about :

    Staff counting as 2 pieces of a set is a huge buff for templars.

    You can have a ligthning staff increasing your jabs by 8%, you will be able to weave easely with good damage and to have undodgeable heavy attack from range.

    You will also have acces to a reach, a good cc.

    You can also use a frost staff and root ennemies, and block with magicka.

    @Aedaryl
    i need also need to disagree, this is by far not a buff to magplars, which in 90% already play with a 5/5/2 setup either by going dual wield on frontbar or sword and board on backbar. this is a buff for double staff and bow/2h builds.

    templars are pushed into a few setups and a few roles, but their compatibility to do other things is rather small compared to others. they cant be everything at the same time like other classes. either they heal in heavy armor, but cant do damage or they have damage, but are squishy as hell. its very hard to build for something in between and be successful. therefore its a class, which is less competitive in pvp content like 1vX, because of their skills. they cant go offensive while taking damage. it is easy to interrupt their burst combo, since you just need to land one heavy a hit and they are forced to go defensive. its the worst defense mechanism in the game: waiting to get hit to heal up, meanwhile every other class has some kind of mitigation technique or massive healing over time. and templars are stuck behind this....
  • Castielle
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    I would really love to see Templars get a Hot in there Restoring Light Skill Line. This would allow them to be offensive while healing (which is our biggest issue, as @Checkmath pointed out). Trying to land Sweeps while you are permarooted or on moving targets is not as easy as something like a Warden's just plain heals. I'd much rather lose the heals on Sweeps and gain a reliable HoT. Would make more sense anyway, since Aedric Spear isn't a healing skill line...

    Cas
    Edited by Castielle on April 23, 2018 10:20AM
  • Seraphayel
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.

    There is no "healing class". In Summerset every class can basically fill every role and be at least good at it.

    Your class dichotomy doesn't fit ESO and especially not after Summerset launch.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Minno
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.

    sry mate, but that statement is just so wrong and garbage. every other class can do decent healing and tanking and all of them have somewhere damn huge damage included, just not templars. ZoS doesnt want the templar to be THE healer, therefore their statements years ago and coming changes. templar should have damage like every other class, otherwise please take away the damage from warden and dk too.
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    What bring next patch you didn't spoke about :

    Staff counting as 2 pieces of a set is a huge buff for templars.

    You can have a ligthning staff increasing your jabs by 8%, you will be able to weave easely with good damage and to have undodgeable heavy attack from range.

    You will also have acces to a reach, a good cc.

    You can also use a frost staff and root ennemies, and block with magicka.

    @Aedaryl
    i need also need to disagree, this is by far not a buff to magplars, which in 90% already play with a 5/5/2 setup either by going dual wield on frontbar or sword and board on backbar. this is a buff for double staff and bow/2h builds.

    templars are pushed into a few setups and a few roles, but their compatibility to do other things is rather small compared to others. they cant be everything at the same time like other classes. either they heal in heavy armor, but cant do damage or they have damage, but are squishy as hell. its very hard to build for something in between and be successful. therefore its a class, which is less competitive in pvp content like 1vX, because of their skills. they cant go offensive while taking damage. it is easy to interrupt their burst combo, since you just need to land one heavy a hit and they are forced to go defensive. its the worst defense mechanism in the game: waiting to get hit to heal up, meanwhile every other class has some kind of mitigation technique or massive healing over time. and templars are stuck behind this....

    It's not a buff because most of the Templar abilities are dual DMG tooltips:
    - unstable core AOE burst is only buffed by fire staff while the defensive and is buffed by lighting.
    - vamps bane
    - Spears shards
    - execute is only buffed by fire staff
    - cresant/empowering sweeps
    - purfying light initial DMG buffed only by fire staff
    - jabs buffed only by lighting staff
    - burning light buffed by neither.

    Swords buff Templar DMG. Even our class defining proc needs swords to increase.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Enslaved
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    What bring next patch you didn't spoke about :

    Staff counting as 2 pieces of a set is a huge buff for templars.

    You can have a ligthning staff increasing your jabs by 8%, you will be able to weave easely with good damage and to have undodgeable heavy attack from range.

    You will also have acces to a reach, a good cc.

    You can also use a frost staff and root ennemies, and block with magicka.

    if only they could jab while there is lag, lol
  • Strider__Roshin
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    I warned long ago that magplars were OP and that they needed toned down before they get nerfed too hard, and you guys thought I was full of it. Guess who was right in the end?

    Truthfully I would make Shards a CC again. It made 1vX pretty easy on a Templar. Now they're incredibly powerful in a group and in duels, but not in solo open world. Making Shards stun again would definitely help resolve that.
  • Aedaryl
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    So you templar will not drop dual wield for lightning staff front bar ?
  • FlamingBeard
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    So you templar will not drop dual wield for lightning staff front bar ?

    Most Templars may swap to Two-Handed sword for the kinda useful-ish extra passives you receive from that skill line compared to Dual Wield.

    Keep in mind that you lose Spell Damage comparing a Staff to Dual Wield or Two-Handed, so you would also be losing base tooltip numbers of both your damage and your healing.

    Large weapons counting as 2 slots buffs classes that already used those weapon types (magWarden, magSorcerer, magNightblade) a lot more than it helps magTemplars or magDragonknights.
    Edited by FlamingBeard on April 23, 2018 2:54PM
  • axxlesoft_ESO
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    I love my magical Templar. I am a team player and I believe a well-played 'healbot' can be a huge game changer in the field. Magplars are perfect for Cyrodiil. Please do not change this just so they can be better at duels.
  • Strider__Roshin
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    I love my magical Templar. I am a team player and I believe a well-played 'healbot' can be a huge game changer in the field. Magplars are perfect for Cyrodiil. Please do not change this just so they can be better at duels.

    Oh they are. A lot of people down play Templars, but truthfully they are the keystone of most victories in Cyrodiil.
  • Dedricus
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    *cries in stam dk*
  • FlamingBeard
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    Dedricus wrote: »
    *cries in stam dk*

    Templars and Dragonknights share sympathies with one another, rest assured.

    Because they both used heavy armor best, they were focused on with a lot of nerfs here and there each update until we arrived to where the two classes are today -- empty shells with very little of their original identity left intact.
  • Mihael
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    I love my magical Templar. I am a team player and I believe a well-played 'healbot' can be a huge game changer in the field. Magplars are perfect for Cyrodiil. Please do not change this just so they can be better at duels.

    This misconception that templars are supposed to be heal bots is both sad and incredibly wrong. It really goes to show how bad of a state this class is in.

    While I’m glad that you can be a healbot and have fun this is not the sole purpose of Templar and we are not asking for changes for “duel” we are asking for changes because some of us (a lot of us) like to play dps templars in pvp or we like do do small scale pvp where being a healbot just makes you a hindrance to your team.

    And before anyone says templars are meant for healing please remember that this is ESO where they want all characters to play all roles this is not another mmo with the classic tank healer dps classes. If we followed this logic the we should remove all damage from dks and wardens because they are supposed to be tank/support classes but that would ruin the game


    For further post please separate healbot from the actual templars as a whole we are discussing here.
  • Pastas
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    healing class, suppose to heal people.
    i don't understand why everyone think that templars are suppose to be massive worriers and kill everyone.

    you guys are suppose to be healing people and healing your self.

    that is your defense. your offence is suppose to be very weak.

    that's the way it is in every single MMO ever made.

    /facepalm
    WARNING
    This post may Include horrible gramatical and orthographic errors
    Read on your own risk
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    Dar'foo Stamblade Zorg-gro-Wurf DK tank Far-Datxo Templar healer Valmir Spellius Magsorc
    Randolf Omberic Magblade Felien Golas Magdk Faenor Oakwood Stamplar Sader Dustorm Stamsorc
    EP
    Do'Ragash Stamdk Caius Grachus Stamden Dalyne Narus Magplar
    DC
    Melkar Spellius Magden
    PC EU
  • Soris
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    They cant go offensive while taking damage. it is easy to interrupt their burst combo, since you just need to land one heavy a hit and they are forced to go defensive. its the worst defense mechanism in the game: waiting to get hit to heal up, meanwhile every other class has some kind of mitigation technique or massive healing over time. and templars are stuck behind this....

    I think this is the major flawl of templar class. This used to be not an issue thanks to the blazing shield and blind, allowing us to perform better. Nowadays you always stuck at back bar to spam boring heal and purify. I still think they need to be brought back for more interesting gameplay.

    Stamina sustain sucks too.

    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    just had some hate whispers this afternoon, because i healed, blocked and mistformed in a towerfight with 3 against me. i survived that and immediately got hate whispers, because mentioned things are everything i could do. the guy complained how OP magplar would be....he himself played a stamina warden and didnt understand, when i said, that i am very envy and really would like to have some of his tools. in the end the guy blocked me....
    in this fight i didnt had much chance to get offensive exactly because i was stuck into that blockhealing. more than 2 or 3 jabs werent possible, since i had to heal up again. i would love to have some strong defense mechanism or healing over time, so i dont have to go on my shield bar to heal up, while i further eat their full damage and they dont get any scratch from me.
    Edited by Checkmath on April 23, 2018 5:08PM
  • casparian
    casparian
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    just had some hate whispers this afternoon, because i healed, blocked and mistformed in a towerfight with 3 against me. i survived that and immediately got hate whispers, because mentioned things are everything i could do. the guy complained how OP magplar would be....he himself played a stamina warden and didnt understand, when i said, that i am very envy and really would like to have some of his tools. in the end the guy blocked me....

    Stamwarden can do exactly what you did, only better:

    - Bird of Prey gives exactly the same speed boost as Mist Form, but unlike magplars, they can also sprint and receive Vigor ticks while escaping
    - Stamwardens can equip S&B too
    - Stamwardens have a burst heal at least as powerful as Honor the Dead

    Some people just don't understand class mechanics.
    7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.
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