Yes I think other class Tanks and Healers will become more viable.
NB Tanks. Depends on how the Stamina management falls out. They didn't die out until the Leeching Strikes nerf to only LA/HA. However with access to Chains which they never had before and a better Heal (when not surrounded). This could be enough.

Same with Sorc Tanks. Though I really only see the Silver Leash change as being the buff to tanking that they get.

DK Healers. They are getting massively buffed.
Cauterize which gives the same buff as Inner light, now has the full range.
Cinder Storm, a HoT you can lay down and a Slow. I ran this for the Slow over Wall before. Does the new change do any damage(Ritual of Retribution) or just pure HoT?
Obsidian Shield. People dont understand this one at all. Damage Shields dont get mitigation. Meaning a Tanks 8k Igneous Shield is worth exactly the same as 1.5k of Health. You get 1.5k of Healing from buffing a base 5k Heal with Major Mending. So the whole "Obsidian Shield not staking" argument is pointless. With these changes I'll be able to maintain 100% up-time on Major Mending, meaning the Springs stacks spam in burn phase will all be that 25% stronger. With the right sets I'll be able to go back maintaining Obsidian like a buff rather than a combo. Especially given that the Healer and tank are usually the 2 farthest apart. Maybe just make sure not to put a DK Healer with a DK Tank on vAA axes.

As for the others, I'm less sure. However Silver Leash at the least will make for better chances. Chains was the only thing my old Templar Tank was missing. Though its been awhile to know if I can still make the stamina last.

The are improved but still falling short of where they need to be.

I have healers, but wouldn't say I know them as well as tanking. Does feel like some other classes are catching up to Templar in that category, but half the reason for that is that they are destroying Templars with every patch it feels.

Hoping tanking doesn't go that route. They've already gutted the role so much, I'm afraid they will start chipping away at what makes DK good at tanking instead of helping the other classes catch up.

But what do they need to catch up? Well, let's look at my DK tank vs. all my other tanks.

(I've tanked vHM of every dungeon and trial in the game on various tanks just to know more about where I come from)

When I look at setting up my tank bars for DK, I find that I'm often trying to decide which good skills to put on the bar and which to leave off, but in other classes I tend to just be trying to fill the bar with anything useful after the one or two actually useful skills.

DK (again, looking at this as a tank) gets:
1. extra resource management with Ultimate.
2. Extra blocking mitigation.
3. They can use magicka to cast a health based self shield that also goes to allies and the passive from that line gives them a little stamina back.
4. Talons
5. Chains (use of magicka vs stam can be important)
6. Health based Self-heal
7. Heal over time
8. Major armor buffs for phys/spell resist
9. The ability to offer a 10% buff to fire damage to group
10. Healing in bonus from passive after using certain abilities plus ability to earn Major Mending buff
11. And "oh crap" button: Magma Shell

This isn't even counting other decent abilities/benefits like AoE interupt, AoE snare(plus heal soon), Minor Brutality to allies, Strong heal skill Burning Embers and probably a couple other things I'm forgetting.

Now, from what experience I have in doing the exact same style runs with different classes (often on progression hard mode runs, which can be a real test of your class/role/personal abilities) I want to mention the big losses that it seems to me every class should have access to:

First off, every class has a way to get the Major armor buffs, so that is good. Silver Leash will also give other classes an option for chains (though using stamina, unless you have a specific build) is a bad idea when you normally have to spam this skill to pull several things in at once. And most classes have access to some sort of Heal over Time skills as well.

Certainly CC can make a difference, Sorc's Encase can be ever better than Talons for many situations. But even have a strong snare like Warden's Ice AoE can be ok. Mostly this isn't a make or break ability however, but more an annoyance - much like chains, it just makes the job of the tank more manageable if you look at your tank role as sort of trying to bring order to chaos and provide some stability - it's nice to be able to round things up and CC them.

One major tanking feature every class should have: Self-Heal.

I've heard all the counters about not supposed to be self sufficient, you are supposed to need heals, etc. But fact is, the way some fights are designed, you need all that PLUS your self shields/heals to survive. Strongest self heal in the game is Sorc's Clanny heal by far - you just have to make sure your clanny is alive. Next is Dragon's Blood. Now it looks like with this patch we'll see Night Blades get a decent self heal with Shadow Cloak and the fact that this will give you your armor buff from passives and Protection make this a great change. I'll be interested to see how it feels during Warrior's Thousands cuts or Rhakaat's Barrage with it being a 3 second HoT instead of instant, but just looking at numbers it seems that will put it in at a close 3rd (if not tied for DB b/c the HoT could be better in other situations). Then coming up quite a bit behind ironically are the two healer classes, with Warden in 4th with their Arctic Wind self heal, even with new buff, still being weaker than one of their other AoE heals and waaaaaaaaay in the back Templar with no self heal. Any attempt to use Breath in a real fight and it will go to everyone but yourself most times.

So in essence, the change to NB - good.
The buff to Warden's Arctic Wind - not enough.
The lack of attention for Templar - shameful.


Next big feature every class should have: Shielding

You can't tell me shielding for a tank isn't important - do you have to do it? Not in every situation, but when I can literally add 15K to my health with a stomp of my feet, give a small shield to my allies and a little stam back to myself, you can't tell me this is not a feature everyone should have some option for in some fashion.

Sorcs have their class shields, which are strong in a magicka build, weak in tank build, but actually not completely un-useable - unfortunately when you only have 5/5 skills to slot, it doesn't have to be un-useable to not get a spot, just not good enough. Unless you are fighting a ranged opponent and can make use of Warden's Ice Shield (which the nerf might hurt a little bit on, but shouldn't kill it for tanking), Templars actually have the next most useful class shielding after DKs. Although Sun Shield is very clunky to use, it's better than nothing. I think this needs some attention myself as this skill could feel (and look) better and maybe offer better features and variants between the two morphs. NBs have nothing here, but at least you can slot Mirage for a different sort of mitigation (though I'm not one that personally would count RNGeezus mitigation over real mitigation)

Bone Shield could be a decent alternative, but personally I think there should be two changes here: when someone synergizes it, the caster of the shield should get the synergized shield as well - as it stands, you personally don't get much benefit from it compared to those around you, so it's great for group synergy, horrible for ever being in a situation as a tank where you personally need mit. For the caster its about as good as a tank based Sorc Ward, which is in the better than nothing 'meh' category. The other change is that one morph of Bone Shield should change to magicka.

In the end, no changes were really made here that help future classes over what they have in the current patch for shielding.

Another thing to keep in mind is additional mitigation. DKs are gonna always take less damage b/c they have extra block mit. Templars have it against melee (some want this changed, if so, then it should be lowered IMO, the reason it's higher is b/c it only blocks melee). Wardens have minor protection, and NBs will as well. And Sorcs will have the block mit thing with bound armor next patch. So that feels as it should - every class providing some sort of extra mit, just in unique/different ways.

Next big thing for tanking: Resource Management

Though we can all look at Battle Roar and see how useful it is to get some of all your stats back, resource management comes in several forms and like all the other classes it's nice to see different ways to do the same job. NB used to be awesome here with Siphoning and with a skill line like that, they should be, but they are not. Sorcs do have dark deal, very situational, but strong. Wardens have the netch. Templars have repentance, which is great on trash fights and horrible on boss fights. - One morph of their circle should give them netch like stamina back IMO. NB Siphoning should be buffed as well, especially with the increase to the cost of their spammable this patch, it wouldn't be too OP to buff their return.

The biggest reason Battle Roar seems so strong is the same reason Argonian potion racial seems so strong now, when it was hardly whined about at all pre-morrowind patch - ZoS has just made resource management a horror show. Maybe they dismiss all the criticism as just us whining, but the game really has gotten more lackluster since the MW patch. If they want to stick with the removal of cost reduction in CP and all, then fine; but they should build on the various class skills to manage resources - that way, unlike CP where you get it passively - you are using skills and working for it, or making sure you build your bar to get passive benefits, etc. to get your resource management.

I hate to say it (OK, I don't really) but those were bad changes. Let's move back into the category where things like the Argonian Potion passive and Battle Roar were just "neat benefits" and not "OMG, that's so good b/c we are all running on empty". Nobody likes to admit they are wrong, in fact, you'll probably nerf those things before you realize you should turn around and head back a bit toward 1.6 in some areas.

.

Anyway - with those three areas covered - if EVERY class had a solid self heal, some good shielding options, and good resource management in some form, then at least I would enjoy doing the job of tank on my other classes. As of now it's just something I do when I'm bored of my DK and we are doing an easier trial or dungeon run.

And frankly, they all shouldn't be exactly the same. So DK has some stuff like the weird cauterize ability (which I think is great btw) or Flame Breath - Sorcs have bolt escape which can be crazy useful in some situations. Warden has the ability to really help out with support heals and armor for the group more than other classes. NB and templar have... well, not a lot of group or utility use for tanking compared to other classes (I guess the NB AoE maim shadow will be ok). But there is still work to be done for Nightblades and Templars in the tanking area is what I'm saying.


Last, but not least problem for this role: Lack of choice

I hear a lot of push back sometimes in tank talk where people say, you don't need Chains, just wear swarm mother. You don't need a burst heal, just wear [x] set that has a burst heal option or earthgore. If you have to wear gear to do what some consider a basic skill for a role that another class is doing with a skill, then you are already a step behind, because that class now has an extra piece of gear that you don't have an option of running. Gear should make you stronger, not just catch you up to another class that hasn't even started talking about their gear load out yet.

But the real problem here is set designs: Tanks have no choices. What? That's crazy, there are dozens of heavy sets in the game that are good for tanking you say! Ask any end game tank what you should run and outside of the occasional Torug's Pact, you'll hear Ebon/Alkosh (one of which isn't even a tanking set, but a DPS set that isn't good enough to run for DPS, but has a good enough debuff that someone has to run it - that's you Mr Tank). It's boring to be honest. I love having group utility, but I really wish I could look at a run and go, "this and this set would be great for me and the group this run" instead of - no, every DPS puts nothing into health and depends on that whole extra 1K from ebon to keep them alive and they can't be bothered to put 20 more points into CP pen, so you gotta run Alkosh.

Do I have an answer for that? Of course I do, I'm someone posting on the internet and thinks he knows everything. But mostly I'll leave it to you to figure out. I do know that with the nerfs to Sunder and NMG for stam this patch, putting a tank in Alkosh is even more important now b/c they cannot afford to give up running a stronger pen set like TFS or Spriggans now and the group utility sets will fall solely on the tanks and healers.

This same thing goes for Ultimates. I hear some say - oh we have great ultimates, we can put down Veil or Trees or... No - you cannot. You slot Warhorn and you blow your warhorn and stab your boss and hold taunt and shut up Mr Tank. I have to say, no class has a better Oh Crap button than DKs Magma Shell when you have to back bar for your alternative ulti and get excited you can use a different ultimate, even if it is b/c your whole group is blowing up and you are trying to recover and survive - just the opportunity for variety makes you happy to watch the world burn. In that vein, Trees, Veil, Negate, etc. can be strong for that sort of oh crap situation, even if not as strong personally - but you will not be able to say "well, Wardens don't need a self heal, they have trees - No, No, No - no end game raider will be happy that you are not giving them warhorn so you can drop trees on cooldown to live.

I think to some degree we are stuck with those options, just like DPS are always stuck with particular skills for their roles even on different classes, but the gear stuff gets extra boring. I'd almost want to see Alkosh nerfed or changed just to make it not pushed on tanks full time, or just add a soft cap for penetration so that groups that try and squeeze every drop out aren't super powered vs casual players that are just putting respectable penetration gear on. Then, like resource management above, things like Alkosh would become less powerful without actually having to nerf them. Plus, shouldn't a boss always have some mitigation?

As for Ebon, I'm fine with the gear as is - well, i really wish we could turn off the stupid red floating balls, I hate them! - but if players got a little more health than they do now for a point or glyph then it might actually encourage them to spend points there - I remember when it was actually worthwhile to lose a little stam or mag for health b/c of the payoff point wise. And worried about too much health in cyrodiil? Well, then you have battle spirit to fix that (and you should also add the bonus health from battle spirit in last to calculations if you don't already so health builds get the same as a dps build coming in and any health bonuses they have from St Entropy and such doesn't count toward that extra health. Or just cap it period, like you get this much bonus health up to 30k and none after or any variation).

I guess I talked a lot and essentially only came to the conclusion that No, Zos Didn't do enough this patch. But that Silver Leash change was positive. And the NB Dark Cloak heal was a positive. So in the end, nothing changes really in the tank meta, but at least the classes that suck at tanking will suck a tiny bit less. (Except Templar - sorry you'll still suck)

Tasear wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The changes are largely hit or miss.

From a NB Tank and Healer perspective, I haven't felt THAT much of a change overall.

Silver Leash is too expensive to use on my Tank that I just went back to Swarm Mother and the Funnel Health and Refreshing Path nerfs have made sustain even tighter than before on both Healer and Tank.

Bolstering Change is whatever. While the Major Protection does benefit from Jorvuld's now that it applies to the player instead of just in a set location, Warhorn will never drop off of a Tank's or Healer's Hotbar in most situations and in the case of bad players, nothing can safe them anyways that it seems ultimately wasted. Soul Siphon suffers the same problem but at least the skill was buffed so I can hit stupid standing a million miles away when I do feel like using it. They want people to use these skills but until Warhorn gets nerfed into obscurity, no one will ever really be happy to see most of these support ultimates, much less bother to slot them.

I do like Dark Cloak and MO changes though as they're the best changes I've experienced thus far in NB. My tank isn't entirely reliant on a burst heal from my Healer to save my bacon in content where my HoTs aren't enough to keep me up and MO change has actually had me use the ability now on my healer since Funnel and Path more than make up for the DoT, although I do hope that the heal not targetting myself is just a bug as being unable to heal myself but still take damage for the skill really hurts it IMO.

I do have a couple other gripes and suggestions I made on the PTS for feedback, such as changing Debilitate to a Minor Lifesteal and having Siphoning Strikes provide more health/resources on Heavy Attacks to help out but I'm on the fence about these changes overall.

Maybe it would help if sliver lesh was brought with Morrowind sustain? How much does it cost compared to dk chains?

It's about 3k, which isn't a whole lot but considering that my NB is mostly magic based and that my Stamina pool is 18k only, 3k a mob adds up quickly, especially when you throw in Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash and blocking. In comparison to DK chains, which costs 3.5k, but doesn't share the same resource as the rest of the Tanking Toolkit and it just offers a level of flexibility that Silver Leash just can't currently. It was possible to sustain it better on my Frost Staff bar as opposed to my SnB bar but that's far from effective for a number of reasons, mostly that my group would be missing the Major Fracture/Breech of Pierce Armor and Mark doesn't work effectively with multiple mobs.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

We may see more warden tanks, since a warden is a lot more pure tanky than a DK, and now they have chains, they will be good for group support. Of course I still expect to see more DK tanks because DK has better sustain/healing so is a bit easier.

Every other role change? Nah.

Explain how you think this.

Damage Shields dont get mitigation.

Yes they do. Any percentage reduction to damage applies on them only block and armor resists do count.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

paulsimonps wrote: »

MITIGATION BEFORE DAMAGE SHIELD:

• 30% Major Maim (All)
  • Dawns Wrath Ultimate: Nova
  • Winter's Embrace Ability: Frozen Device
• 15% Minor Maim (All)
  • One Hand and Shield Ability: Low Slash
  • Draconic Power Ability: Choking Talons
  • Shadow Ability: Summon Shade
  • Shadow Ability: Mass Hysteria
  • Alchemy Poison Effect: Maiming
  • Alchemy Poison Effect: Brutality-Draining
  • Armor Set: Knightmare
  • Armor Set: Wizard’s Riposte
  • Secondary Elemental Effect: Chilled
• 30% Major Protection (All)
  • Winter's Embrace Ultimate: Sleet Storm
  • Shadow Ultimate: Consuming Darkness (Bolstering Darkness Morph makes it 60% for Caster)
  • Armor Set: Pirate Skeleton
  • Armor Set: Coward's Gear
  • Armor Set: Daedric Trickery
• 8% Minor Protection (All)
  • Winter's Embrace Ability: Ice Fortress
  • Restoring Light Ability: Restoring Focus
  • Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection
  • Shadow Ability: Dark Cloak
  • Alchemy Potion Effect: Protection
  • Armor Set: Vampire Cloak
• 15% Major Aegis (Dungeon and Trial Dmg)
  • Armor Set: Automated Defense
  • Armor Set: Inventor's Guard
• 5% Minor Aegis (Dungeon and Trial Dmg)
  • Armor Set: Lunar Bastion
  • Armor Set: Eternal Yokeda
  • Armor Set: Twilight Remedy
  • Armor Set: Automated Defense
  • Armor Set: Inventor's Guard
• 6% Nord Passive: Rugged (All)
• 0-33% Vampire Passive: Undeath (All) (Increases incrementally by 1% per ~1.5% hp lost below 50% hp)
• 75% Vampire Ability: Mist Form (All)
• 0-15% CP Passive: Hardy (Physical, Poison, Disease)
• 0-15% CP Passive: Elemental Defender (Magicka, Shock, Fire, Ice)
• 0-25% CP Passive: Thick Skin (DoT's)
• 0-35% CP Passive: Expert Defender (Light, Heavy attacks(PvP))
• 0-25% CP Passive: Ironclad (Direct Damage)
• 25% Dual Wield Ability: Blade Cloak (AoE)
• 20% Ardent Flame Ultimate: Standard of Might (All)
• 15% (+4% per target, multiplicative) Aedric Spear Ultimate: Empowering Sweep (All)
• 5%/20% Armor Set: Bastion of the Heartland (Player Dmg/Siege Dmg & Player AoE Spells)
• 5% Armor Set: Shield of the Valiant (Player Dmg)
• 5% Armor Set: Buffer of the Swift (Player Dmg)
• 25% Armor Set: Leki's Focus (AoE)
• 15% Armor Set: Light of Cyrodiil (All while Casting or Channeling Spell)
• 35% Armor Set: Reactive Armor (All while CC'ed)
• 50% PvP Effects: Battle Spirit (All)
• 30% Support Ability: Guard (All)

MITIGATION AFTER DAMAGE SHIELD:

• 50% Blocking (All)
• 0-50% Physical Resistance (Physical, Poison, Disease)
• 0-50% Spell Resistance (Magicka, Shock, Fire, Ice)
• 20% One Hand and Shield Passive: Sword and Board (All, while blocking)
• 15% One Hand and Shield Passive: Deflect Bolt (Projectile and Ranged Dmg, while blocking)
• 8% One Hand and Shield Ability: Defensive Posture (All, while blocking)
• 20% Destruction Staff Passive: Ancient Knowledge (All, while blocking with a Frost Staff)
• 10% Draconic Power Passive: Iron Skin (All, while blocking)
• 15% Aedric Spear Passive: Spear Wall (Melee Dmg, while blocking)
• 8% Armor Set: Footman's Fortune (All, while blocking)
• 8% Armor Set: Ward of Cyrodiil (All, while blocking)

Thank you for providing the information that shows that I am correct, yes I missed the word "not" in my post but I was in a hurry posting from the pooper at work.


Great write up @xaraan, well worth the read.

paulsimonps wrote: »

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance 33150/662)/100))*(1-(BlockingMitigation)50/100)*(1-(WeaponPassiveMitigation)20/100)*(1-(IronSkinMitigation)10/100)*(1-(DefensivePostureMitigation)8/100)
Damage Taken=10,000*(1-0.50075)*(1-0.5)*(1-0.20)*(1-0.10)*(1-0.08)
Damage Taken=10,000*0.5*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92
Damage Taken=1656
10,000 Damage to your Shield is worth 1656 Damage to your Health
6624 Base Heal modified by 25%
6,624*0.25=1656
The Major Mending portion (1656 heal) of a Base heal of 6624 is worth more than a 10,000 Damage Shield

...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

We may see more warden tanks, since a warden is a lot more pure tanky than a DK, and now they have chains, they will be good for group support. Of course I still expect to see more DK tanks because DK has better sustain/healing so is a bit easier.

Every other role change? Nah.

Explain how you think this.

Damage Shields dont get mitigation.

Yes they do. Any percentage reduction to damage applies on them only block and armor resists do count.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

paulsimonps wrote: »

MITIGATION BEFORE DAMAGE SHIELD:

• 30% Major Maim (All)
  • Dawns Wrath Ultimate: Nova
  • Winter's Embrace Ability: Frozen Device
• 15% Minor Maim (All)
  • One Hand and Shield Ability: Low Slash
  • Draconic Power Ability: Choking Talons
  • Shadow Ability: Summon Shade
  • Shadow Ability: Mass Hysteria
  • Alchemy Poison Effect: Maiming
  • Alchemy Poison Effect: Brutality-Draining
  • Armor Set: Knightmare
  • Armor Set: Wizard’s Riposte
  • Secondary Elemental Effect: Chilled
• 30% Major Protection (All)
  • Winter's Embrace Ultimate: Sleet Storm
  • Shadow Ultimate: Consuming Darkness (Bolstering Darkness Morph makes it 60% for Caster)
  • Armor Set: Pirate Skeleton
  • Armor Set: Coward's Gear
  • Armor Set: Daedric Trickery
• 8% Minor Protection (All)
  • Winter's Embrace Ability: Ice Fortress
  • Restoring Light Ability: Restoring Focus
  • Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection
  • Shadow Ability: Dark Cloak
  • Alchemy Potion Effect: Protection
  • Armor Set: Vampire Cloak
• 15% Major Aegis (Dungeon and Trial Dmg)
  • Armor Set: Automated Defense
  • Armor Set: Inventor's Guard
• 5% Minor Aegis (Dungeon and Trial Dmg)
  • Armor Set: Lunar Bastion
  • Armor Set: Eternal Yokeda
  • Armor Set: Twilight Remedy
  • Armor Set: Automated Defense
  • Armor Set: Inventor's Guard
• 6% Nord Passive: Rugged (All)
• 0-33% Vampire Passive: Undeath (All) (Increases incrementally by 1% per ~1.5% hp lost below 50% hp)
• 75% Vampire Ability: Mist Form (All)
• 0-15% CP Passive: Hardy (Physical, Poison, Disease)
• 0-15% CP Passive: Elemental Defender (Magicka, Shock, Fire, Ice)
• 0-25% CP Passive: Thick Skin (DoT's)
• 0-35% CP Passive: Expert Defender (Light, Heavy attacks(PvP))
• 0-25% CP Passive: Ironclad (Direct Damage)
• 25% Dual Wield Ability: Blade Cloak (AoE)
• 20% Ardent Flame Ultimate: Standard of Might (All)
• 15% (+4% per target, multiplicative) Aedric Spear Ultimate: Empowering Sweep (All)
• 5%/20% Armor Set: Bastion of the Heartland (Player Dmg/Siege Dmg & Player AoE Spells)
• 5% Armor Set: Shield of the Valiant (Player Dmg)
• 5% Armor Set: Buffer of the Swift (Player Dmg)
• 25% Armor Set: Leki's Focus (AoE)
• 15% Armor Set: Light of Cyrodiil (All while Casting or Channeling Spell)
• 35% Armor Set: Reactive Armor (All while CC'ed)
• 50% PvP Effects: Battle Spirit (All)
• 30% Support Ability: Guard (All)

MITIGATION AFTER DAMAGE SHIELD:

• 50% Blocking (All)
• 0-50% Physical Resistance (Physical, Poison, Disease)
• 0-50% Spell Resistance (Magicka, Shock, Fire, Ice)
• 20% One Hand and Shield Passive: Sword and Board (All, while blocking)
• 15% One Hand and Shield Passive: Deflect Bolt (Projectile and Ranged Dmg, while blocking)
• 8% One Hand and Shield Ability: Defensive Posture (All, while blocking)
• 20% Destruction Staff Passive: Ancient Knowledge (All, while blocking with a Frost Staff)
• 10% Draconic Power Passive: Iron Skin (All, while blocking)
• 15% Aedric Spear Passive: Spear Wall (Melee Dmg, while blocking)
• 8% Armor Set: Footman's Fortune (All, while blocking)
• 8% Armor Set: Ward of Cyrodiil (All, while blocking)

Thank you for providing the information that shows that I am correct, yes I missed the word "not" in my post but I was in a hurry posting from the pooper at work.


Great write up @xaraan, well worth the read.

paulsimonps wrote: »

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance 33150/662)/100))*(1-(BlockingMitigation)50/100)*(1-(WeaponPassiveMitigation)20/100)*(1-(IronSkinMitigation)10/100)*(1-(DefensivePostureMitigation)8/100)
Damage Taken=10,000*(1-0.50075)*(1-0.5)*(1-0.20)*(1-0.10)*(1-0.08)
Damage Taken=10,000*0.5*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92
Damage Taken=1656
10,000 Damage to your Shield is worth 1656 Damage to your Health
6624 Base Heal modified by 25%
6,624*0.25=1656
The Major Mending portion (1656 heal) of a Base heal of 6624 is worth more than a 10,000 Damage Shield

And you are taking a 12k ward from my tank and giving me a 1.8k. there is no way around that. Stop trying to make it sound okay.

1.8k ward and 1.6k health (up to as much as 6kHealth - Major Mending portion of a Crit Healing Ward double cast) making it worth 12k total (up to 20k total) to the Tank and also four other squish DPS that can't create there own 12k ward.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

We may see more warden tanks, since a warden is a lot more pure tanky than a DK, and now they have chains, they will be good for group support. Of course I still expect to see more DK tanks because DK has better sustain/healing so is a bit easier.

Every other role change? Nah.

Explain how you think this.

Damage Shields dont get mitigation.

Yes they do. Any percentage reduction to damage applies on them only block and armor resists do count.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

paulsimonps wrote: »

MITIGATION BEFORE DAMAGE SHIELD:

• 30% Major Maim (All)
  • Dawns Wrath Ultimate: Nova
  • Winter's Embrace Ability: Frozen Device
• 15% Minor Maim (All)
  • One Hand and Shield Ability: Low Slash
  • Draconic Power Ability: Choking Talons
  • Shadow Ability: Summon Shade
  • Shadow Ability: Mass Hysteria
  • Alchemy Poison Effect: Maiming
  • Alchemy Poison Effect: Brutality-Draining
  • Armor Set: Knightmare
  • Armor Set: Wizard’s Riposte
  • Secondary Elemental Effect: Chilled
• 30% Major Protection (All)
  • Winter's Embrace Ultimate: Sleet Storm
  • Shadow Ultimate: Consuming Darkness (Bolstering Darkness Morph makes it 60% for Caster)
  • Armor Set: Pirate Skeleton
  • Armor Set: Coward's Gear
  • Armor Set: Daedric Trickery
• 8% Minor Protection (All)
  • Winter's Embrace Ability: Ice Fortress
  • Restoring Light Ability: Restoring Focus
  • Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection
  • Shadow Ability: Dark Cloak
  • Alchemy Potion Effect: Protection
  • Armor Set: Vampire Cloak
• 15% Major Aegis (Dungeon and Trial Dmg)
  • Armor Set: Automated Defense
  • Armor Set: Inventor's Guard
• 5% Minor Aegis (Dungeon and Trial Dmg)
  • Armor Set: Lunar Bastion
  • Armor Set: Eternal Yokeda
  • Armor Set: Twilight Remedy
  • Armor Set: Automated Defense
  • Armor Set: Inventor's Guard
• 6% Nord Passive: Rugged (All)
• 0-33% Vampire Passive: Undeath (All) (Increases incrementally by 1% per ~1.5% hp lost below 50% hp)
• 75% Vampire Ability: Mist Form (All)
• 0-15% CP Passive: Hardy (Physical, Poison, Disease)
• 0-15% CP Passive: Elemental Defender (Magicka, Shock, Fire, Ice)
• 0-25% CP Passive: Thick Skin (DoT's)
• 0-35% CP Passive: Expert Defender (Light, Heavy attacks(PvP))
• 0-25% CP Passive: Ironclad (Direct Damage)
• 25% Dual Wield Ability: Blade Cloak (AoE)
• 20% Ardent Flame Ultimate: Standard of Might (All)
• 15% (+4% per target, multiplicative) Aedric Spear Ultimate: Empowering Sweep (All)
• 5%/20% Armor Set: Bastion of the Heartland (Player Dmg/Siege Dmg & Player AoE Spells)
• 5% Armor Set: Shield of the Valiant (Player Dmg)
• 5% Armor Set: Buffer of the Swift (Player Dmg)
• 25% Armor Set: Leki's Focus (AoE)
• 15% Armor Set: Light of Cyrodiil (All while Casting or Channeling Spell)
• 35% Armor Set: Reactive Armor (All while CC'ed)
• 50% PvP Effects: Battle Spirit (All)
• 30% Support Ability: Guard (All)

MITIGATION AFTER DAMAGE SHIELD:

• 50% Blocking (All)
• 0-50% Physical Resistance (Physical, Poison, Disease)
• 0-50% Spell Resistance (Magicka, Shock, Fire, Ice)
• 20% One Hand and Shield Passive: Sword and Board (All, while blocking)
• 15% One Hand and Shield Passive: Deflect Bolt (Projectile and Ranged Dmg, while blocking)
• 8% One Hand and Shield Ability: Defensive Posture (All, while blocking)
• 20% Destruction Staff Passive: Ancient Knowledge (All, while blocking with a Frost Staff)
• 10% Draconic Power Passive: Iron Skin (All, while blocking)
• 15% Aedric Spear Passive: Spear Wall (Melee Dmg, while blocking)
• 8% Armor Set: Footman's Fortune (All, while blocking)
• 8% Armor Set: Ward of Cyrodiil (All, while blocking)

Thank you for providing the information that shows that I am correct, yes I missed the word "not" in my post but I was in a hurry posting from the pooper at work.


Great write up @xaraan, well worth the read.

paulsimonps wrote: »

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance 33150/662)/100))*(1-(BlockingMitigation)50/100)*(1-(WeaponPassiveMitigation)20/100)*(1-(IronSkinMitigation)10/100)*(1-(DefensivePostureMitigation)8/100)
Damage Taken=10,000*(1-0.50075)*(1-0.5)*(1-0.20)*(1-0.10)*(1-0.08)
Damage Taken=10,000*0.5*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92
Damage Taken=1656
10,000 Damage to your Shield is worth 1656 Damage to your Health
6624 Base Heal modified by 25%
6,624*0.25=1656
The Major Mending portion (1656 heal) of a Base heal of 6624 is worth more than a 10,000 Damage Shield

And you are taking a 12k ward from my tank and giving me a 1.8k. there is no way around that. Stop trying to make it sound okay.

1.8k ward and 1.6k health (up to as much as 6kHealth - Major Mending portion of a Crit Healing Ward double cast) making it worth 12k total (up to 20k total) to the Tank and also four other squish DPS that can't create there own 12k ward.

A dk healer won't be using healing ward, they have 2 burst heals, cauterize and obsidian shard. They have no need for healing ward.

Lol my tank gives out 3.7k shields, bigger then any healers. So my tank gives out bigger wards. If we are adding up ward size, my tank will be giving out up to 30k wards in one cast. A 18k health healer will be have a ward size of 1854. 1854*6 is 11,124. Not even the size if my tanks main shield.

my tanks stats on the PTS right now



and what the morphs look like right now




what the skill looks like on my magdk dps with these stats-



obsidian shields morphs



cauterize




obsidian shards heal is almost breath of life size on a non healer

Dks healers just don't need the shielding or the major mending bad enough to cause these kinds of problems.

If I was going to make a dk healer, I think my bars would look like this-

Inner light- cauterize- igneous weapons- healing spring/Mutagen- combat prayer, ulti magma shell

Eledrain, obsidian shards, sanguine alter, mystic orbs, lightning wall, ulti warhorn.

Maybe swap obsidian shards and cauterize, so you get major prophecy on both bars.

Until they figure out how to make igneous shields stack or something, they don't belong on a healers bar.

I wasn't adding up anything. Everything I was talking about was single target. I was talking about the difference between Damage Taken to Shields vs Damage Taken to Health. Obsidian Shard did get a buff, but not where it actually needed it. It is still a trash skill because A - I need to target an enemy to heal an alley. B - The range from the enemy that the alley can be in order to actually get the heal is trash, (4 or 5 meters) Healing Ward is an omni-directional smart heal with a radius of 28 meters. Its also 2k Health and 12k shield, that when you double cast turns into 16k health and a 4k shield. (Yes I am including the 300% low health bonus)

I'm not new to Healing on a DK. I've been doing it for over a year.
And my bars are
Combat Prayer, Healing Springs, Healing Ward, Igneous Shield, Inner Light, Magma Shell
Ele Drian, Engulfing, Energy Orbs, Cauterize, Harden Armor, War Horn

Use to run Lighting Wall over Engulfing, but switched because NO DKs even tanks run Engulfing. Chains, Eruption, Talons all work too, when the group has been that bad.

Until Shield get all forms of Damage Mitigation the only reason a DK Tank runs it, is for Helping Hands.

I give credit to Mystic Raven (ESO Daily) for the base of my DK Healer build.
I will probably test out Obsidian Shard, once I can. Like I said though, it didn't get buffed where it needed it most.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=23778

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

B - The range from the enemy that the alley can be in order to actually get the heal is trash, (4 or 5 meters)

this is patiently false and has been for a long time, like since morrowind, both the damage portion and the heal both have a 28 meter range by default, meaning that the skill is actually the longest range heal in the game, with a default range of 56 meters, 28 to the mob for the damage portion and then another 28 meter from the mob for the heal portion. you say you are not new to healing a dk, i dont even have one and i know this.

I understood it as the skills range, not the heal off the target. If what you say is true, well then. All I can say is my build was already establihed. And Obsidian Shard is still no where near the heal that Healing Ward is.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

why the crap are you run hardened armor on a healer? you dont need the major resists and the, lol, "ward" that comes with hardened armor is 15% of your health, which is like 2k. and only last for 3.5 seconds, it is the weaker of the 2 morphs and even tanks ought to run the other one, the extra damage procs the mag return of eledrain, basically paying for itself. .

Burning Heart and 10% damage reduction, the morph is irrelevant. Ele Drain can only proc once/sec. Already running one DoT so the extra damage does nothing for me and is way more reliable than waiting for an enemy to damage me.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

though good call on the engulfing. i would change my bars to look like this then.


engulfing flames-cauterize-Cinder Storm- healing spring/Mutagen- combat prayer, ulti magma shell

Eledrain, obsidian shards, sanguine altar, mystic orbs, lightning wall, ulti warhorn.

No Combat Prayer? Be ready for the hate.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

that way you have 2 or three hots going and a burst heal on both bar and have 2 synergys for the group and still provide engulfing. energy orbs if you are in trials, mystic orbs for everything else, the extra damage you provide is more important then heals, as you will have 2 or s or even 4 hots going, if you keep cauterize up.

oh and you know that cinder storm is going to be a ground based hot next patch right? just to be clear, see here-

I'm built for Trails, I don't bother to go remorph for 4-man. I see the Cinder Storm change, maybe I'll replace Harden Armor with it. Maybe Inner Light, not willing to drop anything else though. Like I said before, I used to run Eruption at least when Lighting Wall wasn't being utilized. After all Engulfing is useless when there's no fire damage.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

I feel like a lot of dk tanks are going to get screwed by dk healers and the fact that obsidian sheild and its morphs still do not stack, tested myself in the pts, all for a whopping 5.4 seconds of major mending. A whole 2.4 seconds more then a heavy attack. For 4k magic.

Tanks will always take the stronger shield morph, which will overwrite fragmented shield. DK healers will always take longer major mending duration (ideally) so DK healers will never cause issues for stronger group wide igneous shields. The was specifically why the change was made.

It will 100% cause issues, did you not read my comment? Fragmented sheild and igneous sheild do not stack. Let me reiterate, fragmented Shield an igneous Shield do not stack. So a dk healer will be taking a tanks 12k+ ward and giving them a puny ~1.8k ward instead. This is bad. B. A. D. Bad. There will be no excuses for this. Obsidian Shield and either if its morphs do not belong on healer. Full stop.

I know they dont stack, my point is that the frequency at which DK tanks use Igneous is still often enough for it to not be a major issue. Igneous will overwrite fragmented every time, the actual window for when the shields drop and update is not that huge especially since the shield doesnt last long on tank anyways. Its not a critical problem since (especially with jorvulds) DKs will be casting fragmented half the amount of times DK tank might.

Either way, the shield should belong to DK healers imo. Igneous Shield should only effect the caster and stronger shields should not be overwritten by weaker ones. Let DK healers handle group wide mitigation. DK tanks can lose this one tool.

In perspective to Nightblade tanking...

Bolstering Darkness change was a good one. The SnB ult was a better "oh crap" button since it was cheaper, and it helped with resource management. This move has become incredibly beneficial for group utility. If your team is in a good position to dish out damage you use Warhorn, if your team is in a position where surviving is a struggle, you use Bolstering Darkness. This will also be my go to ult while taking in PvP. Overall it's a great change.

Dark Cloak... The heal is where it should be. The minor protection however needs to have its duration increased big time! 3 seconds is nothing. One other thing, if you want a great way to add group utility to the Nightblade tank you could have it so this move also applies minor protection on everyone else. As far as its ability to crit goes, it needs to change to your highest crit stat. My Nightblade tank has around 25% weapon crit and 10% spell crit so at the moment this heal crits once in a blue moon where it could be potentially critting once per cast.

The Dark Shade needs to have 100% minor maim uptime.

Silver Leash change was the best change they could have done for tanks. Without this change DKs were the only tanks allowed in a competitive context. This was truly the biggest game changer.

I would be interested in running a Sorcerer tank. I don't know enough about the class so far to know exactly how to do that though, since I'm brand new to this game. Would Sorcerer tanks be more of a stamina Sorcerer thing?