How do you feel about lesser used classes in tank and healer after Summerset?

Tasear · April 2018

Do you think you will see more Dragon Knights healer, Sorc tanks, nightblades tanks, nightblade healers?

Are these classes more viable in their roles?

Is there anything not working?

Are you interested in trying any of these these classes in these roles?

aeowulf · April 2018

as you asked, NB tanking changes this patch: (copied from another thread)

Bolstering darkness: Mitigation will be reduced by 50% and the duration reduced. Effective result is NB tanks will loose their 'oh crap' button. You cannot convince me DPS classes will reduce their DPS to run in front of a mob, putting themselves at significant risk, to pick up a buff they've done fine without for the last x years. This change is a significant nerf, that's getting overlooked. Bolstering is underused, because almost no one is playing NB tank. It needs leaving alone.

Strife: cost increase - this will most likely disappear from NB tanks skill bar unless someone desperately loves the passive still. This is actually OK, as space will probably need to be made for Dark Cloak.

Dark cloak: Nice change, no invis. Quality of life change, overland questing will be annoying again as trash takes a while to clear. This skill is a heal, it should be in siphoning skill line, not shadow.

MO: no longer healing caster - I don't think either NB tank were running it anyway.

in addition:

Shades, whilst managing an AE maim, does not keep it up 100% of the time. Tanks need to keep maim up 100% of the time.

So overall, NB tanks are set to get quite a massive nerf. Convinced you to try one?

Turelus · April 2018

I think giving other classes access to chains outside of Swarm Mother will do a lot for letting more classes enter that role.

Healers I think too many people are still reliant of BoL to save their butts. I actually have an Orc DK Healer in most of my dungeon runs and it works fine, people just have to be aware they can't act like a moron then have BoL save them.

I'm open to all classes and to see how they do. Trials I still expect some classes to fall into the "most demanded" because they're going for ease of play and efficiency.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

I feel like a lot of dk tanks are going to get screwed by dk healers and the fact that obsidian sheild and its morphs still do not stack, tested myself in the pts, all for a whopping 5.4 seconds of major mending. A whole 2.4 seconds more then a heavy attack. For 4k magic.

aeowulf · April 2018

We shall see, it's what the PTS is for. Just hope this time round they act on feedback. Lack of action last year with Morrowind really hurt some class-role combinations, almost completely removing them from the game. Which reminds me, must try out Templar, see if there are any changes relevant to stamDPS or tanking.

eso_nya · April 2018

I dont think there will be many dk healers.
DK has the problem, that they dont come w/ rolespecific skills, like the other classes, but with rolespecific morphs.
That comes with 2 problems: leveling healers and tanks not in dd loadouts takes ages. u need to know, that its a good idea to level a dd-line and unlock the last skill of it, and than max it out until u can morph it into a heal.
None of dk-heals looks like being worth to pick over anything from resto line or orbs.

Whenever i tried to make a sorc tank, while defo being intresting skillwise, i realised i cant get anything w/ heavy + s&b that is even half as immortal as going max magicka and running ward and harness. So why would i gimp my dmg output in order to be weaker?

Nightblöd (both stam and mag) have always been very strong tanks imho, the addition of a pull from fg line is a very good thing.
NB healers, have been the strongest always imo. I always loved that u can pull the same hps and dps simultaniously. they dont have shards tho. Will be as hard as before to convince the metards to allow u to run in "competitive" content. repentance gone and potl dropped into sunder made templars worse, but noone else better.

fu_snail · April 2018

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

eso_nya · April 2018

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

Not sure if that was in response to my post. If so: i was talking about running necro and pet thus getting ~40k shields (in the rare case incoming dmg is high enough to actually having to slot a 2nd one) and still being able to push out 30k~40k dps.
Sure u can slot inner fire and call it "tank", its not really a tank build tho. Please share if u have a build with heavy armor and icestaff or s&b that can do the same or better.

Vaoh · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

I think giving other classes access to chains outside of Swarm Mother will do a lot for letting more classes enter that role.

Healers I think too many people are still reliant of BoL to save their butts. I actually have an Orc DK Healer in most of my dungeon runs and it works fine, people just have to be aware they can't act like a moron then have BoL save them.

I'm open to all classes and to see how they do. Trials I still expect some classes to fall into the "most demanded" because they're going for ease of play and efficiency.

But isn’t that the issue? Due to you choosing a DK Healer, you are more limited in your healing capabilities, and your friends can’t always expect to get heals when needed. You say that others shouldn’t act like “morons” and expect a BoL, but how many players can realistically avoid making a mistake in your typical Vet Dungeon Group Finder PuG (especially amongst low lvl players).

It’d be one thing if each class had its own very powerful class-based skills for each role, but atm Templar is the absolute best healer, and DK is the absolute best tank. Warden tank was pretty close depending on scenario but gets nerfed next patch

You play knowing that you are at a pretty severe disadvantage. Also in trials, classes should not fall into a “most demanded” role because they are both easier to play and more efficient. I was hoping that ZOS would make greater strides in changing that for Summerset.

Tasear · April 2018

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

What do you think of the changes for Sorc tank? Will it make easier for you? Does it make you feel more viable?

Mureel · April 2018

I don't mind any of it, so long as something is done to stop the redundancy of any role.

Maining a healer forever, it's cute how I'm needed for new content for all achievements- then I get told to go pack sand because 'HM is easier with 3 dps'.

This needs to stop being a thing. It's pissing me off to the point that I don't want to even bother helping clear the other parts.

Sure I could just dps all the time, but then what is even the point of ever healing?

It chaps my ass that I am asked all the time when new content comes out but when we did all but HM, I'm suddenly ghosted.

If I didn't have some good friends who get that, I'd be SOL and I'd never get my HM clears on my main where the rest are!

This means that basically I have to do every achievement twice to get the skin or title or w/e. Rawr.

fu_snail · April 2018

eso_nya wrote: »

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

Not sure if that was in response to my post. If so: i was talking about running necro and pet thus getting ~40k shields (in the rare case incoming dmg is high enough to actually having to slot a 2nd one) and still being able to push out 30k~40k dps.
Sure u can slot inner fire and call it "tank", its not really a tank build tho. Please share if u have a build with heavy armor and icestaff or s&b that can do the same or better.

Maybe I misunderstood your OP then. Not sure what you're looking for but my sorc tank is an actual tank. I use ebon, torugs, dragon, alkosh or PD depending on what I'm running. Sorcs have great self heals so I can survive on my own if need be most of the time and sorcs already have cheap warhorns and it's even cheaper with dragon.I can give my team increased spell crit and increase magicka regen with skills and passives. I'm looking to get Jorvulds (still need rings and a shield) to get bigger shields and increase warhorn uptime even more. Monster sets are usually blood spawn (warhorn uptime) or swarm mothers, sometimes lord warden

My front bar is usually Puncture, Heroci Slash, Empowered Ward, Bound Aegis, Absorb Magick, Barrier
Back bar: Inner Fire, Flex, Dark Deal, Bound Aegis, Boundless Storm, Warhorn

The flex spot is usually crit surge or restraining prison and if I need big self heals I'll swap out bound aegis for the Clannfear cause it can crit heal for over 30k

Is it as good as a DK tank? of course not, but it's still a damn good tank that can complete all the content.

fu_snail · April 2018

Tasear wrote: »

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

What do you think of the changes for Sorc tank? Will it make easier for you? Does it make you feel more viable?

It will definitely make tanking easier for me. I mostly made it because I love sorcs as I main a Magsorc DPS for progression but the sorc tank is a lot of fun and I wanted to try something new. Definitely viable but also it's not going to replace DKs for score runs

exeeter702 · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

I feel like a lot of dk tanks are going to get screwed by dk healers and the fact that obsidian sheild and its morphs still do not stack, tested myself in the pts, all for a whopping 5.4 seconds of major mending. A whole 2.4 seconds more then a heavy attack. For 4k magic.

Tanks will always take the stronger shield morph, which will overwrite fragmented shield. DK healers will always take longer major mending duration (ideally) so DK healers will never cause issues for stronger group wide igneous shields. The was specifically why the change was made.

Beardimus · April 2018

I like the concept of concept builds. Hence my Sorc Pet healer, it was to prove a point. However the changes to Sorc for tanking are detrimental to the class for DD/PvP and that to me is odd. It detracts from natural class direction.

Also they killing duel wield Sorc too. So actually losing diversity in choice.

Annoying

troomar · April 2018

Classes may change, people won't. So I don't expect any change in "Why do we have a sorc healer?", "You don't have shards, you can't heal", or "So I will heal alone?" every time there is someone new in our party for vet trials.

Schattenfluegel · April 2018

Tasear wrote: »

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

What do you think of the changes for Sorc tank? Will it make easier for you? Does it make you feel more viable?

The Problem of a sorc tank is his own Sustain and the Groupsustain...tried it out in väa with those axes. You cant really good sustain with dark deal...

fu_snail · April 2018

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

What do you think of the changes for Sorc tank? Will it make easier for you? Does it make you feel more viable?

The Problem of a sorc tank is his own Sustain and the Groupsustain...tried it out in väa with those axes. You cant really good sustain with dark deal...

What was your build for this and how many axes did you get? I haven't done it yet but I plan to try it out soon.

Tasear · April 2018

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

What do you think of the changes for Sorc tank? Will it make easier for you? Does it make you feel more viable?

The Problem of a sorc tank is his own Sustain...tried it out in väa with those axes. You cant really good sustain with dark deal...

The changes seemed to focused on this issue. There's reduced block cost and reduce cost in skills? Does this resolve the issues?

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

I think giving other classes access to chains outside of Swarm Mother will do a lot for letting more classes enter that role.

Healers I think too many people are still reliant of BoL to save their butts. I actually have an Orc DK Healer in most of my dungeon runs and it works fine, people just have to be aware they can't act like a moron then have BoL save them.

I'm open to all classes and to see how they do. Trials I still expect some classes to fall into the "most demanded" because they're going for ease of play and efficiency.

I've been saying this for years. Silver Leash should just be a single click pull against ANYTHING. Not everything in dungeons is a daedra: There are clockwork, there are animunculi, animals, goblins, mer, humans, etc. This skill seemed like it was always meant to be a chain pull like skill but it was never quite walked over the finish line.

fu_snail · April 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

fu_snail wrote: »

You're sorc tanking wrong then. I've completed every vet dungeon except Fang Lair and nearly every HM except a couple DLC HM's with my sorc tank and it's pretty damn tanky using the BiS tank sets. Sure Sorc is not BiS tank class but it's certainly doable. I've even tanked vHRC with it. I'm pumped about the changes for sorc tanking with sommerset.

What do you think of the changes for Sorc tank? Will it make easier for you? Does it make you feel more viable?

The Problem of a sorc tank is his own Sustain...tried it out in väa with those axes. You cant really good sustain with dark deal...

The changes seemed to focused on this issue. There's reduced block cost and reduce cost in skills? Does this resolve the issues?

I think build and group comp can solve this issue.

Mannox · April 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

as you asked, NB tanking changes this patch: (copied from another thread)

Bolstering darkness: Mitigation will be reduced by 50% and the duration reduced. Effective result is NB tanks will loose their 'oh crap' button. You cannot convince me DPS classes will reduce their DPS to run in front of a mob, putting themselves at significant risk, to pick up a buff they've done fine without for the last x years. This change is a significant nerf, that's getting overlooked. Bolstering is underused, because almost no one is playing NB tank. It needs leaving alone.

Strife: cost increase - this will most likely disappear from NB tanks skill bar unless someone desperately loves the passive still. This is actually OK, as space will probably need to be made for Dark Cloak.

Dark cloak: Nice change, no invis. Quality of life change, overland questing will be annoying again as trash takes a while to clear. This skill is a heal, it should be in siphoning skill line, not shadow.

MO: no longer healing caster - I don't think either NB tank were running it anyway.

in addition:

Shades, whilst managing an AE maim, does not keep it up 100% of the time. Tanks need to keep maim up 100% of the time.

So overall, NB tanks are set to get quite a massive nerf. Convinced you to try one?

Pretty spot on. NB tanks needed some serious juice and so far they're getting ripped apart - again. I'd like to see the arguments for why such major nerfs are taking place. As usual we get no feedback. No open communication from the dev team. I'm sure it's because ZOS is a corporation. All changes are committal and there is no exchange of ideas. Or even a tempered reassurance for that matter.

Recremen · April 2018

I really hope it works out and we see a greater diversity of viable end-game builds for healer, tank, and DPS. That would be fantastic. Unfortunately that's not really my specialty for testing so I'm going to leave it for people with more experience theorycrafting and buildjamming to chime in on how well it's working and how to get there.

Tasear · April 2018

draekab14_ESO wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

as you asked, NB tanking changes this patch: (copied from another thread)

Bolstering darkness: Mitigation will be reduced by 50% and the duration reduced. Effective result is NB tanks will loose their 'oh crap' button. You cannot convince me DPS classes will reduce their DPS to run in front of a mob, putting themselves at significant risk, to pick up a buff they've done fine without for the last x years. This change is a significant nerf, that's getting overlooked. Bolstering is underused, because almost no one is playing NB tank. It needs leaving alone.

Strife: cost increase - this will most likely disappear from NB tanks skill bar unless someone desperately loves the passive still. This is actually OK, as space will probably need to be made for Dark Cloak.

Dark cloak: Nice change, no invis. Quality of life change, overland questing will be annoying again as trash takes a while to clear. This skill is a heal, it should be in siphoning skill line, not shadow.

MO: no longer healing caster - I don't think either NB tank were running it anyway.

in addition:

Shades, whilst managing an AE maim, does not keep it up 100% of the time. Tanks need to keep maim up 100% of the time.

So overall, NB tanks are set to get quite a massive nerf. Convinced you to try one?

Pretty spot on. NB tanks needed some serious juice and so far they're getting ripped apart - again. I'd like to see the arguments for why such major nerfs are taking place. As usual we get no feedback. No open communication from the dev team. I'm sure it's because ZOS is a corporation. All changes are committal and there is no exchange of ideas. Or even a tempered reassurance for that matter.

What about the new skill changes that targeted nb tanks in a positive way? Will the cloak heal help?

Tasear · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

I feel like a lot of dk tanks are going to get screwed by dk healers and the fact that obsidian sheild and its morphs still do not stack, tested myself in the pts, all for a whopping 5.4 seconds of major mending. A whole 2.4 seconds more then a heavy attack. For 4k magic.

Maybe @ZOS_EricBuhlman @ZOS_Wrobel could look into the issue.

Royaji · April 2018

Most of the older trials (Craglorns, MoL, partially HoF) are all about being able to sustain while permablocking. DKs just do it best. Their toolkit fits the best for it. No, you can't use Dark Deal on Mage's axes.

This is also the reason why Silver Leash is not going to be this saving grail for all non-DK tanks. 3,5k stam is a lot and tanks can't allow themselves to waste all of their stamina to pull 4 adds in.

Can a NB/Sorc/Templar tank be effective in a vet trial? Sure they can. Will the same player be even more effective on DK or Warden? Hell yes.

StoicSunbro · April 2018

I plan on building a Sorc tank this weekend before the event ends. The goal will be clearing Vet Craglorn Trials at a minimum with it, which I've already done on DK and Warden

Thanks to Silver Leash, I'll finally feel confident bringing my Warden tank into vMoL.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

I feel like a lot of dk tanks are going to get screwed by dk healers and the fact that obsidian sheild and its morphs still do not stack, tested myself in the pts, all for a whopping 5.4 seconds of major mending. A whole 2.4 seconds more then a heavy attack. For 4k magic.

Tanks will always take the stronger shield morph, which will overwrite fragmented shield. DK healers will always take longer major mending duration (ideally) so DK healers will never cause issues for stronger group wide igneous shields. The was specifically why the change was made.

It will 100% cause issues, did you not read my comment? Fragmented sheild and igneous sheild do not stack. Let me reiterate, fragmented Shield an igneous Shield do not stack. So a dk healer will be taking a tanks 12k+ ward and giving them a puny ~1.8k ward instead. This is bad. B. A. D. Bad. There will be no excuses for this. Obsidian Shield and either if its morphs do not belong on healer. Full stop.

zTrok · April 2018

Just thought I'd chime in. I've absolutely loved the changes to DK healer on the PTS. The main point of interest I've seen with that has been in Cinder Storm. I really like the idea of using it in instances that the group is all piled up together. I think this could be very useful in; the Mage execute phase, final boss of HoF execute phase, the two burn phases of the pillar guy in MoL, and the celestial serpent.

All in all, I really have enjoyed playing the DK healer, but, I feel that there were not enough changes to get it a spot in the healing meta. Another issue is in the fact that most of the newer trials are much more mobile, making it difficult for DD's to stand in one place to receive the Cinder heal. Very good effort though!

Grevaris_Elluin · April 2018

We may see more warden tanks, since a warden is a lot more pure tanky than a DK, and now they have chains, they will be good for group support. Of course I still expect to see more DK tanks because DK has better sustain/healing so is a bit easier.

Every other role change? Nah.

Silver_Strider · April 2018

The changes are largely hit or miss.

From a NB Tank and Healer perspective, I haven't felt THAT much of a change overall.

Silver Leash is too expensive to use on my Tank that I just went back to Swarm Mother and the Funnel Health and Refreshing Path nerfs have made sustain even tighter than before on both Healer and Tank.

Bolstering Change is whatever. While the Major Protection does benefit from Jorvuld's now that it applies to the player instead of just in a set location, Warhorn will never drop off of a Tank's or Healer's Hotbar in most situations and in the case of bad players, nothing can safe them anyways that it seems ultimately wasted. Soul Siphon suffers the same problem but at least the skill was buffed so I can hit stupid standing a million miles away when I do feel like using it. They want people to use these skills but until Warhorn gets nerfed into obscurity, no one will ever really be happy to see most of these support ultimates, much less bother to slot them.

I do like Dark Cloak and MO changes though as they're the best changes I've experienced thus far in NB. My tank isn't entirely reliant on a burst heal from my Healer to save my bacon in content where my HoTs aren't enough to keep me up and MO change has actually had me use the ability now on my healer since Funnel and Path more than make up for the DoT, although I do hope that the heal not targetting myself is just a bug as being unable to heal myself but still take damage for the skill really hurts it IMO.

I do have a couple other gripes and suggestions I made on the PTS for feedback, such as changing Debilitate to a Minor Lifesteal and having Siphoning Strikes provide more health/resources on Heavy Attacks to help out but I'm on the fence about these changes overall.