Defiles and Balance

Aedaryl · April 2018

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

Feanor · April 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

That’s one reason Sorc has been given the name of potato masher class. You actually don’t need breach or defile to kill a not so good player. Or to just spam Endless Fury from a zerg. It’s a whole different story though going up against a stam build in the hands of a good player.

Outside the delayed burst there just isn’t much. And that burst becomes less and less potent (maybe the buffs to LA will help there, we‘ll have to see).

BohnT · April 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Befoul only adds about 25% healing reduction.

(30% base major defile + 15% base minor defile) x 1.55 = 69.75% maximum healing reduction

69.75% - (30% base major defile + 15% base minor defile) = 24.75% healing reduction

15% in blessed and 15% in quick recovery increase healing by

1.15 x 1.15 = 1.3225 = 132.25% = 32.25% more healing

Now if we apply the reduction increase given from full cp in befoul to build that has full cp in both healing augmenters, we get:

100% healing x 1.3225 healing modifier x (1-.2475 healing reducer) = 99.52%-100.51% (depending on whether or not that final 0.75% in befoul is actually counted or rounded down)

CP used to further increase healing potential through elfborn/precise strikes by an additional:

25% x (base heal strength/crit heal strength before CP) x crit chance = % increase to total healing from elfborn/PS

For non templars and non NBs, this would look like:

25% x 2/3 x ~50% = ~8.3% increase to total healing (for NBs and Templars, you would have substituted 5/8 for 2/3)

roughly 8.3% increase to total healing at 50% crit chance, with a maximum potential of 16.7% at 100% crit chance, and a minimum of 1.67% at 10% crit chance

This would be multiplicative with the 32.25% from quick recovery and blessed.

So at 60% crit chance, Max CP in all 3 would increase your total healing

1.3225 x 1.1 = 1.4548 = 45.48% more healing done

With perfect crit, healing could be increased by 54.3%. And even after a full 24.75% reduction from befoul, your total healing is still 16% above where it would be with no CP at all.

So the bigger issue was that healing was out of control due to CP, rather than defile being too OP, and this created a need for defile modifications.

With summerset the two should be more or less balanced. But you must invest at least as much into healing as others will into defiling.

Good to show how the CP interact with each other.
This doesn't show the problems with defiles in general however.
Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs

BohnT · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

That’s one reason Sorc has been given the name of potato masher class. You actually don’t need breach or defile to kill a not so good player. Or to just spam Endless Fury from a zerg. It’s a whole different story though going up against a stam build in the hands of a good player.

Outside the delayed burst there just isn’t much. And that burst becomes less and less potent (maybe the buffs to LA will help there, we‘ll have to see).

From what i can tell sorc is going to be very potent next patch, very very potent tbh. I won't say it's overperfoming yet but with the LA changes and other changes we may see another magsorc era.

Feanor · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

That’s one reason Sorc has been given the name of potato masher class. You actually don’t need breach or defile to kill a not so good player. Or to just spam Endless Fury from a zerg. It’s a whole different story though going up against a stam build in the hands of a good player.

Outside the delayed burst there just isn’t much. And that burst becomes less and less potent (maybe the buffs to LA will help there, we‘ll have to see).

From what i can tell sorc is going to be very potent next patch, very very potent tbh. I won't say it's overperfoming yet but with the LA changes and other changes we may see another magsorc era.

Depends. Overload will surely not have the empower bonus stick to it. That would be just absurd. I know @Dracane posted damage numbers for a magicka stacking build and these were doubled compared to live. Again, I don’t think this will stay that way. And other than Rune Cage nothing else was changed.

BohnT · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

That’s one reason Sorc has been given the name of potato masher class. You actually don’t need breach or defile to kill a not so good player. Or to just spam Endless Fury from a zerg. It’s a whole different story though going up against a stam build in the hands of a good player.

Outside the delayed burst there just isn’t much. And that burst becomes less and less potent (maybe the buffs to LA will help there, we‘ll have to see).

From what i can tell sorc is going to be very potent next patch, very very potent tbh. I won't say it's overperfoming yet but with the LA changes and other changes we may see another magsorc era.

Depends. Overload will surely not have the empower bonus stick to it. That would be just absurd. I know @Dracane posted damage numbers for a magicka stacking build and these were doubled compared to live. Again, I don’t think this will stay that way. And other than Rune Cage nothing else was changed.

The mines change is great, 15% cost reduction after blocking also helps.
With the LA changes and rune cage you can push people below 20% health and get the kill with fury.
And don't forget about staves counting as 2pc that's also a huge buff.

Aznox · April 2018

While waiting for a defile nerf to give us back the joy of immortal builds and infinite fights in CP PvP (honestly, why not ? Fighting is the fun part after all) i encourage anyone who see it as over-performing to abuse it as much as possible, remember it is available for any class !

Major Defile (Decrease Healing taken and Health Recovery by 30%)

One Hand and Shield Ability: Reverberating Bash (Morph of Power Bash)
Bow Ability: Lethal Arrow (Morph of Snipe)
Nightblade Assassination Ultimate: Death Stroke+Morphs
Dragonknight Ardent Flame Ultimate: Dragonknight Standard+Morphs
Templar Dawn's Wrath Ability: Dark Flare (Morph of Solar Flare)
Warden Green Balance Ability: Corrupting Pollen (Morph of Healing Seed)
Werewolf Ability: Claws of Anguish (Morph of Infectious Claws)
Secondary Damage Type Effect: Disease
Armor Set: Durok's Bane (Loot)
Armor Set: Crest of Cyrodiil (Loot)

Minor Defile (Decrease Healing taken and Health Recovery by 15%)

Alchemy Poison: Vitality (Beetle Scuttle, Butterfly Wing, Fleshy Larva, Torchbug Thorax)
Alchemy Poison/Potion: Defile (Spider Eggs, Nightshade, Mudcrab Chitin)
Armor Set: Fasalla's Guile (Loot)
Armor Set: Pirate Skeleton (Loot, on self)
Armor Set: Thurvokun (Loot)

Amdar_Godkiller · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Befoul only adds about 25% healing reduction.

(30% base major defile + 15% base minor defile) x 1.55 = 69.75% maximum healing reduction

69.75% - (30% base major defile + 15% base minor defile) = 24.75% healing reduction

15% in blessed and 15% in quick recovery increase healing by

1.15 x 1.15 = 1.3225 = 132.25% = 32.25% more healing

Now if we apply the reduction increase given from full cp in befoul to build that has full cp in both healing augmenters, we get:

100% healing x 1.3225 healing modifier x (1-.2475 healing reducer) = 99.52%-100.51% (depending on whether or not that final 0.75% in befoul is actually counted or rounded down)

CP used to further increase healing potential through elfborn/precise strikes by an additional:

25% x (base heal strength/crit heal strength before CP) x crit chance = % increase to total healing from elfborn/PS

For non templars and non NBs, this would look like:

25% x 2/3 x ~50% = ~8.3% increase to total healing (for NBs and Templars, you would have substituted 5/8 for 2/3)

roughly 8.3% increase to total healing at 50% crit chance, with a maximum potential of 16.7% at 100% crit chance, and a minimum of 1.67% at 10% crit chance

This would be multiplicative with the 32.25% from quick recovery and blessed.

So at 60% crit chance, Max CP in all 3 would increase your total healing

1.3225 x 1.1 = 1.4548 = 45.48% more healing done

With perfect crit, healing could be increased by 54.3%. And even after a full 24.75% reduction from befoul, your total healing is still 16% above where it would be with no CP at all.

So the bigger issue was that healing was out of control due to CP, rather than defile being too OP, and this created a need for defile modifications.

With summerset the two should be more or less balanced. But you must invest at least as much into healing as others will into defiling.

Good to show how the CP interact with each other.
This doesn't show the problems with defiles in general however.
Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs

I agree to an extent. The issue is that relative to say major/minor mending/vitality, defile:

A. Is much more accessible to any class or build.

To get minor mending requires either being a nightblade who slots a skill that exchanges health for group healing, which isn't practical or intelligent in PVP; or wearing a pretty deconstructable set. Major Vitality is accessible but nearly impossible to get a high uptime on. Major mending is only accessible for restro users, DKs, and Wardens. Minor vitality is fairly accessible for everyone.

B. Is a stronger debuff than either corresponding buff individually

particularly minor defile vs either minor vitality or minor mending; but also Major Mending vs Major defile. In order to equal the effectiveness of defile, one is required to have 3 of the 4 healing buffs active pretty much on demand.

C. Can be stacked easily

Major and minor defile can be simultaneously applied with a single reverberating bash using defiling poison.

So weakening the base debuff from defile and then strengthening befoul so that it still adds 25% healing reduction is actually the answer, or changing the major defile to minor defile in most instances. Or granting defile immunity after the effect runs its course.

The issue is not that befoul is too strong at all though.

NyassaV · April 2018

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

BohnT · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Amdar_Godkiller · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

usmguy1234 · April 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

While we don't have access to defile, we have the absolute best defence against it. I'm going to call that a win and move on.

BohnT · April 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

No they can't they are mediocre when talking about effective healing.

Amdar_Godkiller · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

No they can't they are mediocre when talking about effective healing.

My main is a stam DK and I've been playing for 3 years. I'm well aware of their strengths and weaknesses and I promise you, no other vigor ticks compare to those of stam DK using igneous shield.

Igneous shield (25% buff to healing done) + Green Dragon Blood (20% buff to healing received)+ Max cp in quick recovery and blessed = 28% of your missing health burst heal (even after battle spirit) with Vigor ticks buffed by 89%

It increases to 131% with vitality pots

Now you can argue that stam sorcs have a superior heal in dark exchange/deal or that Wardens and Templars have better class heals; but ultimately the fact that DKs have fairly large healing done and received modifiers makes their self healing just way more potent than other stam classes because of the fact that they're multiplicative with one another. All you have to do is build for increased mag sustain.

Amdar_Godkiller · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

No they can't they are mediocre when talking about effective healing.

And I just read your post on DKs and totally agree with your assessment for the most part.

1. They just take more damage than other classes. They have no way to avoid most damage or purge dots. (which is incredibly ironic, because it means the "DOT class" is the one class that most easily succumbs to DOTS. LOL

2. Worst burst - Stam DKs need better passives and an inhale morph that scales to stamina, CCs, and detonates active DOTs for 60% of the damage that they'd have done IMO.

3. Poorly designed sustain for today's PVP (though this is getting buffed somewhat)

But the thing is, all of these could be addressed without changing anything about defile and it would make Stam DK instantly powerful in PVP. Templar is the only class that can purge (warden kind of but at the cost of a much more vital morph to netch), so defile would actually be second best among stam classes at mitigating defile builds.

BohnT · April 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

No they can't they are mediocre when talking about effective healing.

And I just read your post on DKs and totally agree with your assessment for the most part.

1. They just take more damage than other classes. They have no way to avoid most damage or purge dots. (which is incredibly ironic, because it means the "DOT class" is the one class that most easily succumbs to DOTS. LOL

2. Worst burst - Stam DKs need better passives and an inhale morph that scales to stamina, CCs, and detonates active DOTs for 60% of the damage that they'd have done IMO.

3. Poorly designed sustain for today's PVP (though this is getting buffed somewhat)

But the thing is, all of these could be addressed without changing anything about defile and it would make Stam DK instantly powerful in PVP. Templar is the only class that can purge (warden kind of but at the cost of a much more vital morph to netch), so defile would actually be second best among stam classes at mitigating defile builds.

i just see healing only as good as it's actual effect. I mean stamdk could have 50k hps if they take 300% more damage it doesn't mean anything

Amdar_Godkiller · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

No they can't they are mediocre when talking about effective healing.

And I just read your post on DKs and totally agree with your assessment for the most part.

1. They just take more damage than other classes. They have no way to avoid most damage or purge dots. (which is incredibly ironic, because it means the "DOT class" is the one class that most easily succumbs to DOTS. LOL

2. Worst burst - Stam DKs need better passives and an inhale morph that scales to stamina, CCs, and detonates active DOTs for 60% of the damage that they'd have done IMO.

3. Poorly designed sustain for today's PVP (though this is getting buffed somewhat)

But the thing is, all of these could be addressed without changing anything about defile and it would make Stam DK instantly powerful in PVP. Templar is the only class that can purge (warden kind of but at the cost of a much more vital morph to netch), so defile would actually be second best among stam classes at mitigating defile builds.

i just see healing only as good as it's actual effect. I mean stamdk could have 50k hps if they take 300% more damage it doesn't mean anything

Well they are the worst in PVP currently for a reason (or a number of them more precisely). That's bound to have a spill over effect on the aspects of the class that don't entirely suck. lol

Sun7dance · April 2018

The problem with sets like Durok's Bane is, that you get a permanently huge debuff on your target without doing anything.
Yes, Nightblades have Incap, but first you have to hit at least.
But Durok's works either way, you simply have no Chance to avoid the debuff.

ZOS should really integrate a global Cooldown after purging. One for Major Defile and one for Minor Defile.
Furthermore they should think about huge debuffs once again generally. If you want to put such a debuff on your target, you have to work for it and not just fire snipe and snipe and snipe.

Ragnaroek93 · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

And i play Cp like 95% of the time because i see it a much more balanced than non cp.

Excellent.

/exit thread

Have fun with non- CP "balance"

NoCP is way more balanced if you exclude the cheese. Of course, the cheese just shines even brighter there, but luckily not everyone plays a FotM Streamer Build with the latest absurd combos.

No CP is balanced

Murador178 · April 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

And i play Cp like 95% of the time because i see it a much more balanced than non cp.

Excellent.

/exit thread

Have fun with non- CP "balance"

NoCP is way more balanced if you exclude the cheese. Of course, the cheese just shines even brighter there, but luckily not everyone plays a FotM Streamer Build with the latest absurd combos.

No CP is balanced

Yeah because u can stack procsets

. Like Sheer venom/poisons/skoria/viper.

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

Sorc will be absurd next patch. Just go on the pts:

absurd 1hit bursts without even needing an ult (so it will prob be nerfed)

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stamplar has more healing? I dont feel so squishy on any stamclass as on a dualwield stamplar.

BohnT · April 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

And i play Cp like 95% of the time because i see it a much more balanced than non cp.

Excellent.

/exit thread

Have fun with non- CP "balance"

NoCP is way more balanced if you exclude the cheese. Of course, the cheese just shines even brighter there, but luckily not everyone plays a FotM Streamer Build with the latest absurd combos.

No CP is balanced

Yeah because u can stack procsets . Like Sheer venom/poisons/skoria/viper.

Aedaryl wrote: »

@BohnT

What do you think about magsorc and his no debuff access ? Are they balanced agaisnt stamclass lingering/rally/vigor/high mitigation/class cheese healing buff ?

Sorc will be absurd next patch. Just go on the pts:

absurd 1hit bursts without even needing an ult (so it will prob be nerfed)

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stamplar has more healing? I dont feel so squishy on any stamclass as on a dualwield stamplar.

More effective healing, stamplar can atleast purge some dots and has almost 100% uptime on minor vitality and mending which helps a lot.
Also you get that additional (small) healing from purge which more than the 12% healing from DK passives when assuming they run FM and vigor.
It comes down to the ability to purge defiles (atleast for one or 2 seconds) and the ability to purge dots which means you actually get more of your healing. Granted the healing of stamplar isn't something to write home about but it's better than stamdks not much but still more.

About the DW stamplars. Everytime I see one i say to myself: hopefully he's only dueling or has a pocket healer at his side because they really are squishy.
For OW i always advise to play 2h +1h&s and only swap to DW if you have a healer next to you.

J18696 · April 2018

I think they should remove defile off all range skills and either nerf or remove befoul cp entirely

Abysswarrior45 · April 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.

Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.

You aren't playing stam DK 100% correctly. You should at least be getting more healing than other classes due to passives

Honestly The CP tree needs slight adjustments

Stamdk has much weaker healing than any other stamclass.
read my post in the dk section i explain everything there why stamdk actually has much weaker heals than NB, Stamsorcs or Warden

Stam DK has arguably the strongest healing of any class in PVP. It's literally the only thing they are best at. It hasn't been reliable since the nerf to igneous shield, but with the buff coming in summerset, they will once again be vigor tick gods.

They are the only class that can basically counter defile entirely. They get the most buffs to healing received of any class and 5 seconds of major mending from a skill that they use almost every 5 seconds.

No they can't they are mediocre when talking about effective healing.

My main is a stam DK and I've been playing for 3 years. I'm well aware of their strengths and weaknesses and I promise you, no other vigor ticks compare to those of stam DK using igneous shield.

Igneous shield (25% buff to healing done) + Green Dragon Blood (20% buff to healing received)+ Max cp in quick recovery and blessed = 28% of your missing health burst heal (even after battle spirit) with Vigor ticks buffed by 89%

It increases to 131% with vitality pots

Now you can argue that stam sorcs have a superior heal in dark exchange/deal or that Wardens and Templars have better class heals; but ultimately the fact that DKs have fairly large healing done and received modifiers makes their self healing just way more potent than other stam classes because of the fact that they're multiplicative with one another. All you have to do is build for increased mag sustain.

Nobody builds like that though unless they want to tank. And no, dk doesn't counter heal debuff builds at all. Those kinds of builds are what absolutely *** on Dks.

olsborg · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

I'd like to see the following changes: all current non ultimate versions of applying major defile are turned into minor defile.
The value of major defile is reduced to 25%, minor defile is reduced to 10%
Befoul CP is moved to the atronach and magicka/ stamina light and heavy attack damage cps are merged into one cp.
Also befoul is reduced to 45% down from 55% at 100 points spend.
The empty cp at the green tree can be changed to:
Reduce the effectiveness and duration of snares and immobilizations applied to you up to 25% (at 100 points spend)

Yea defile is way too strong atm, and this suggestion made by @BohnT is a very sound one, good job. I only wish the devs will listen and do some tweaks to defile.

NobleX35 · April 2018

I almost do nothing but play pvp, and I almost completely disagree with everything you have said. I think defile and the befoul cp tree are fine for the most part. All of your suggestions would completely nerf defile into the ground similarly to the way ZoS has implemented nerfs in the past (constitution, wrath, sustain, proc sets, etc.). You’re basically asking for a quadruple nerf...

1. You want to change all majors (except for ultimates) into minors
2. You want to nerf the base values to 25% and 10%
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree which would mean less perks for damage and or healing
4. You want to nerf the befoul perk itself by 10% at cap.

These suggestions are absolutely ridiculous, and you might as well take the debuff out of the game. With all the healbots and tankbots, and even just healing potential for regular players, defile is the only good counter.

The only suggestion that could potentially be implemented would be to nerf the befoul cap by 10%. I’m not even sure that is really necessary. Everything else is just absolutely ridiculous.

Feanor · April 2018

NobleX35 wrote: »

I almost do nothing but play pvp, and I almost completely disagree with everything you have said. I think defile and the befoul cp tree are fine for the most part. All of your suggestions would completely nerf defile into the ground similarly to the way ZoS has implemented nerfs in the past (constitution, wrath, sustain, proc sets, etc.). You’re basically asking for a quadruple nerf...

1. You want to change all majors (except for ultimates) into minors
2. You want to nerf the base values to 25% and 10%
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree which would mean less perks for damage and or healing
4. You want to nerf the befoul perk itself by 10% at cap.

These suggestions are absolutely ridiculous, and you might as well take the debuff out of the game. With all the healbots and tankbots, and even just healing potential for regular players, defile is the only good counter.

The only suggestion that could potentially be implemented would be to nerf the befoul cap by 10%. I’m not even sure that is really necessary. Everything else is just absolutely ridiculous.

Are you running Durok‘s?

BohnT · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

I almost do nothing but play pvp, and I almost completely disagree with everything you have said. I think defile and the befoul cp tree are fine for the most part. All of your suggestions would completely nerf defile into the ground similarly to the way ZoS has implemented nerfs in the past (constitution, wrath, sustain, proc sets, etc.). You’re basically asking for a quadruple nerf...

1. You want to change all majors (except for ultimates) into minors
2. You want to nerf the base values to 25% and 10%
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree which would mean less perks for damage and or healing
4. You want to nerf the befoul perk itself by 10% at cap.

These suggestions are absolutely ridiculous, and you might as well take the debuff out of the game. With all the healbots and tankbots, and even just healing potential for regular players, defile is the only good counter.

The only suggestion that could potentially be implemented would be to nerf the befoul cap by 10%. I’m not even sure that is really necessary. Everything else is just absolutely ridiculous.

Are you running Durok‘s?

Or a Magsorc?

Ragnaroek93 · April 2018

Nerf Defile and also remove the keep buff which boosts healing in PvP and it should be fine.

NobleX35 · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

I almost do nothing but play pvp, and I almost completely disagree with everything you have said. I think defile and the befoul cp tree are fine for the most part. All of your suggestions would completely nerf defile into the ground similarly to the way ZoS has implemented nerfs in the past (constitution, wrath, sustain, proc sets, etc.). You’re basically asking for a quadruple nerf...

1. You want to change all majors (except for ultimates) into minors
2. You want to nerf the base values to 25% and 10%
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree which would mean less perks for damage and or healing
4. You want to nerf the befoul perk itself by 10% at cap.

These suggestions are absolutely ridiculous, and you might as well take the debuff out of the game. With all the healbots and tankbots, and even just healing potential for regular players, defile is the only good counter.

The only suggestion that could potentially be implemented would be to nerf the befoul cap by 10%. I’m not even sure that is really necessary. Everything else is just absolutely ridiculous.

Are you running Durok‘s?

Actually no...my main character is a stamplar running 2 blood spawn, 5 Impreg, and 5 ravager. The only source of defile I have on this character is the status effect from my disease enchant.

Checkmath · April 2018

NobleX35 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

I almost do nothing but play pvp, and I almost completely disagree with everything you have said. I think defile and the befoul cp tree are fine for the most part. All of your suggestions would completely nerf defile into the ground similarly to the way ZoS has implemented nerfs in the past (constitution, wrath, sustain, proc sets, etc.). You’re basically asking for a quadruple nerf...

1. You want to change all majors (except for ultimates) into minors
2. You want to nerf the base values to 25% and 10%
3. You want to move the befoul perk to the blue tree which would mean less perks for damage and or healing
4. You want to nerf the befoul perk itself by 10% at cap.

These suggestions are absolutely ridiculous, and you might as well take the debuff out of the game. With all the healbots and tankbots, and even just healing potential for regular players, defile is the only good counter.

The only suggestion that could potentially be implemented would be to nerf the befoul cap by 10%. I’m not even sure that is really necessary. Everything else is just absolutely ridiculous.

Are you running Durok‘s?

Actually no...my main character is a stamplar running 2 blood spawn, 5 Impreg, and 5 ravager.

He can cleanse, thats why he is against the changes