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Defiles and Balance
BohnT
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Right now everyone who plays pvp can agree that defiles are too strong in their current form.
They are very easy to get, really powerful and hardcounter the only things which will give you health back or keep you alive outside of shields.
With the CP tree befoul and major + minor defile you can easily reach a 70% healing debuff on your target with 100% uptime.
When you look at the normal healing values of skills while in combat and fully buffed in pvp and then mix in defiles you realise really fast why they are overperfoming at the moment.
With major defile only a 3k vigor tick gets reduced to 2k (3k is a crit with high stats + investment into healing received + done for most builds)
If we now fight the 70% defile build this 3k crit (our absolute maximum) gets reduced to 900 pitiful health we get from our main heal.
This can be out damaged by:
A light attack with DW on a magicka spec
Almost any dot in the game
Every spammable
A bash
Etc.
Meaning with no effort you can completely negate the main healing of stamina specs.
Now we look at things like BoL which heals for 10-12k on potent healing builds this gets reduced to a laughable 3-3.6k healing. On an offensive build that has all healing buffs active and features good stats which supplement healing
What makes this even more absurd is how little opportunity cost you have for increasing the effectiveness of defiles via cp.
Both healing done and taken are in the offensive or defensive cp trees located, meaning if you want to boost your healing you are losing either lots of damage or damage mitigation which makes the effectiveness of the investment rather low as you increase your healing yes but you also eat more damage.
Befoul however is located in the green cp that has little effect on your build past ~150 points spend as you already have all the cps you need for your build. Now you still have access to 100 cp and you can use them on befoul without losing damage or survivability. Further investment in the other cps only give you diminishing returns so it's much more useful to just put everything into befoul.
What makes defiles even stronger is the ease of applying them in contrast to getting the heal buffs.
Only one class has access to both major and minor vitality and major mending and only with a rest staff equipped (nightblade) and in order to get those buffs together for 3 seconds you have to do a fully charged resto + using an ultimate that costs 150 ult (soul siphon)
While every class has easy access to major defile at 100% uptime via: duroks bane, Cyrodiils crest, reverb bash, lethal arrow, diseases damage enchant and that's only the non class skills.
Minor defile can be applied via poisons or fassalas guile.
I'd like to see the following changes: all current non ultimate versions of applying major defile are turned into minor defile.
The value of major defile is reduced to 25%, minor defile is reduced to 10%
Befoul CP is moved to the atronach and magicka/ stamina light and heavy attack damage cps are merged into one cp.
Also befoul is reduced to 45% down from 55% at 100 points spend.
The empty cp at the green tree can be changed to:
Reduce the effectiveness and duration of snares and immobilizations applied to you up to 25% (at 100 points spend)
They are very easy to get, really powerful and hardcounter the only things which will give you health back or keep you alive outside of shields.
With the CP tree befoul and major + minor defile you can easily reach a 70% healing debuff on your target with 100% uptime.
When you look at the normal healing values of skills while in combat and fully buffed in pvp and then mix in defiles you realise really fast why they are overperfoming at the moment.
With major defile only a 3k vigor tick gets reduced to 2k (3k is a crit with high stats + investment into healing received + done for most builds)
If we now fight the 70% defile build this 3k crit (our absolute maximum) gets reduced to 900 pitiful health we get from our main heal.
This can be out damaged by:
A light attack with DW on a magicka spec
Almost any dot in the game
Every spammable
A bash
Etc.
Meaning with no effort you can completely negate the main healing of stamina specs.
Now we look at things like BoL which heals for 10-12k on potent healing builds this gets reduced to a laughable 3-3.6k healing. On an offensive build that has all healing buffs active and features good stats which supplement healing
What makes this even more absurd is how little opportunity cost you have for increasing the effectiveness of defiles via cp.
Both healing done and taken are in the offensive or defensive cp trees located, meaning if you want to boost your healing you are losing either lots of damage or damage mitigation which makes the effectiveness of the investment rather low as you increase your healing yes but you also eat more damage.
Befoul however is located in the green cp that has little effect on your build past ~150 points spend as you already have all the cps you need for your build. Now you still have access to 100 cp and you can use them on befoul without losing damage or survivability. Further investment in the other cps only give you diminishing returns so it's much more useful to just put everything into befoul.
What makes defiles even stronger is the ease of applying them in contrast to getting the heal buffs.
Only one class has access to both major and minor vitality and major mending and only with a rest staff equipped (nightblade) and in order to get those buffs together for 3 seconds you have to do a fully charged resto + using an ultimate that costs 150 ult (soul siphon)
While every class has easy access to major defile at 100% uptime via: duroks bane, Cyrodiils crest, reverb bash, lethal arrow, diseases damage enchant and that's only the non class skills.
Minor defile can be applied via poisons or fassalas guile.
I'd like to see the following changes: all current non ultimate versions of applying major defile are turned into minor defile.
The value of major defile is reduced to 25%, minor defile is reduced to 10%
Befoul CP is moved to the atronach and magicka/ stamina light and heavy attack damage cps are merged into one cp.
Also befoul is reduced to 45% down from 55% at 100 points spend.
The empty cp at the green tree can be changed to:
Reduce the effectiveness and duration of snares and immobilizations applied to you up to 25% (at 100 points spend)
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KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like this change really balance defoul a bit and especially anything that can make snares less effective0 -
Zophix✭✭✭Or we could just get rid of cp in PVP in general. I play battlegrounds because its fun fighting without cp. Leave cp for pve content. Anyways thats just my opinion6 -
sneakymitchell✭✭✭✭
Both which never been used on a Stam DK more in line of a tanky set up. Too bad NBs will lose out crit heal and protection from cloak. Now I can kill NBs more easy than dealing with one spamming cloak when close to death.usmcjdking wrote: »DK has access to Major Mending and Minor Vit.NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭I can agree fighting defile build can be very frustrating. However I feel like they’re the only answer to turteling self-sustain Builds such as magdks like to run, or healbots such as every second magplar in Cyrodiil. Don’t forget you can also get rid of debuffs and counter them.
I myself tried to create a debuff build a while ago, and found that you really loose a lot damage and rankings if you want to spec that way. There are certain sources, that you listed, which should be adjusted (duroks!), and I agree that the values should be reduced to maybe a maximum of 50% total reduction. BUT healdebuffs play an important role, it’s just they can get abused to easily and should be harder to obtain.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can agree fighting defile build can be very frustrating. However I feel like they’re the only answer to turteling self-sustain Builds such as magdks like to run, or healbots such as every second magplar in Cyrodiil. Don’t forget you can also get rid of debuffs and counter them.
I myself tried to create a debuff build a while ago, and found that you really loose a lot damage and rankings if you want to spec that way. There are certain sources, that you listed, which should be adjusted (duroks!), and I agree that the values should be reduced to maybe a maximum of 50% total reduction. BUT healdebuffs play an important role, it’s just they can get abused to easily and should be harder to obtain.
There is nothing that can reliably remove defiles. As you don't get any immunity after purging you'll be defiled 1 second later again.
Yes defiles are needed but not in their current form they are just too strong. If you want to tryhard you use a full defile build with Max sustain and very low sustain and you won't be able do lose any OW 1v1 anymore.
My proposed changes wouldn't kill defiles but rather balance them0 -
boaz733✭✭✭i said the same thing:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/406959/befoul-vs-blessed0 -
Zorgon_The_Revenged✭✭✭✭✭I only see the 100% up-time as a problem, maybe a 15-30 second immunity after being affected, a removal of minor defile and it possibly becoming unpurgeable (it's pretty useless on any player who has and uses some form of a purge).
Last time I used a strong major defile build it worked well where I needed it and was more of a "don't struggle in quicksand" scenario, where they panicked and burnt too many resources. It's quite fun watching people realise strategy-A isn't working and they haven't got/thought of a strategy-B.
Edit:Also people always complain 70% defile is too strong, yes but how many players actually have/use 70% and how many players die with assistance from, lets say, a simple 36% defile?Edited by Zorgon_The_Revenged on April 17, 2018 9:40AM2 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭yeah, defiles are too strong.
reduce the effectiveness, but allow it to have an effect on shields too.1 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭yeah, defiles are too strong.
reduce the effectiveness, but allow it to have an effect on shields too.
I think major defile should only be linked with ultimates, and un-purgeable. With that said I would link Major defile to at least one ultimate for every class. No item set or normal ability should have access to major defile, only minor at best.0 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To be honest, the amount of healing and mitigation available through Cp is the real "balance issue" in pvp. A build that invests solely in survivability through healing Cp like blessed and quick recovery will out heal the damage of a no-defile MAXIMUM dps setup, everytime. I play 3/5 of my stam classes near or at 6k weapon damage, have thousands of hours of experience in pvp, and even I face players who clearly have little to no skill, but can heal or mitigate right through my damage with no issues. The counter to those setups IS defile. If you nerf that, you make them unkillable to the solo player.
CP IS the real issue when it comes to pvp balance. 750 points is wayyyyy too much. You don't need to sacrifice anything on builds once again, similar to how it was the patch prior to morrowind with cost reduction through Cp. In addition to the lack of sacrifice, as I said earlier, the system HEAVILY FAVORS healing and mitigation over damage. I think if cp were removed entirely, cyrodil would be much more fun as the heal bots consistently ran out of magicka, the tanks ran out of stamina, and the damage builds realize they can't survive without 750cp to carry them.
There's a reason I end up with millions of damage and 20+kills w/ 1-2 deaths in no Cp bgs. I can actually KILL the healbots and the cp carries without trouble.@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
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Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭i also would like some change there. tweaking numbers to 20% for major defile and 10% for minor defile would be nice. also befoul should be in the blue cp trees, so pvp players need to sacrifice damage for it. additionally should duroks bane be changed or removed. the set is a no brainer and shouldnt provide such a strong debuff to everyone hitting you.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agree with BohnT, however I don´t want this change happening if there aren´t any adjustments to healing. I would say it´s just as easy to stack several healing buffs as it is to boost defile debuffs. Both healing and healing debuffs are overperforming if you ask me.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agree with BohnT, however I don´t want this change happening if there aren´t any adjustments to healing. I would say it´s just as easy to stack several healing buffs as it is to boost defile debuffs. Both healing and healing debuffs are overperforming if you ask me.
I don't see healing in general to be too strong.
Also stacking healing buffs often comes at a huge cost be it losing damage or sustain in order to have good healing.
Things like Earthgore, trollking, stamwarden etc. are critical but healing in general isn't what i view to be a problem.
The problem with healing is more an issue of effective healing due to actual healing combined with damage mitigation through different things
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React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agree with BohnT, however I don´t want this change happening if there aren´t any adjustments to healing. I would say it´s just as easy to stack several healing buffs as it is to boost defile debuffs. Both healing and healing debuffs are overperforming if you ask me.
I don't see healing in general to be too strong.
Also stacking healing buffs often comes at a huge cost be it losing damage or sustain in order to have good healing.
Things like Earthgore, trollking, stamwarden etc. are critical but healing in general isn't what i view to be a problem.
The problem with healing is more an issue of effective healing due to actual healing combined with damage mitigation through different things
What classes do you play/main? Just curious.
Healing and mitigation are the two furthest outliers in terms of pvp balance. Yes, to become a pure healer you do sacrifice significant damage. But sustain? Just be an argonian and use tripots, you'll have infinite sustain.
What you are not aknowledging is the huge discrepancy in players that would rather never die versus players that actually care about having the damage to kill their enemies. The vast majority of players would rather play builds that can sustain, survive, and heal indefinitely with just enough damage to kill targets when EVERYTHING goes right, or no damage at all if theyre playing purely objective or support based. It is because of Cp that these builds function, and when those same players come into no Cp they get erased from existence because CP is the core of their builds and philosophy.
But as long as Cp remains in pvp, steps need to be taken to REDUCE the healing and mitigation available through it. Befoul is the furthest thing from the problem, and truthfully it's more of an issue for medium players like myself than heavy armor players or healer. The blessed node should NOT BE in the blue tree, I just haven't personally evaluated where it should be placed and what should replace it.@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
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Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other options:
1. remove befoul entirely along with healing cp if you want to complain about heals too strong (which compared to befoul, they aren’t)
2. Move major defile to shackle/nova and minor defile to skills/incap/sets. Much like the proposed idea.
People shouldn’t crutch on preventing others from healing or outplaying a burst combo by simply reverb bashing and applying a heal debuff for 45%. Timing your burst or layering pressure dot damage with a timely stun and ult is not only more enjoyable for both sides but it allows counterplay and requires more thinking on the attackers part.
Too many Stam players running sb main bar and spamming reverb.3 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agree with BohnT, however I don´t want this change happening if there aren´t any adjustments to healing. I would say it´s just as easy to stack several healing buffs as it is to boost defile debuffs. Both healing and healing debuffs are overperforming if you ask me.
I don't see healing in general to be too strong.
Also stacking healing buffs often comes at a huge cost be it losing damage or sustain in order to have good healing.
Things like Earthgore, trollking, stamwarden etc. are critical but healing in general isn't what i view to be a problem.
The problem with healing is more an issue of effective healing due to actual healing combined with damage mitigation through different things
What classes do you play/main? Just curious.
Healing and mitigation are the two furthest outliers in terms of pvp balance. Yes, to become a pure healer you do sacrifice significant damage. But sustain? Just be an argonian and use tripots, you'll have infinite sustain.
What you are not aknowledging is the huge discrepancy in players that would rather never die versus players that actually care about having the damage to kill their enemies. The vast majority of players would rather play builds that can sustain, survive, and heal indefinitely with just enough damage to kill targets when EVERYTHING goes right, or no damage at all if theyre playing purely objective or support based. It is because of Cp that these builds function, and when those same players come into no Cp they get erased from existence because CP is the core of their builds and philosophy.
But as long as Cp remains in pvp, steps need to be taken to REDUCE the healing and mitigation available through it. Befoul is the furthest thing from the problem, and truthfully it's more of an issue for medium players like myself than heavy armor players or healer. The blessed node should NOT BE in the blue tree, I just haven't personally evaluated where it should be placed and what should replace it.
I currently play: Magdk, Stamdk, Stamplar, magplar, magsorc, magnb, stamnb
I played in the past: Magwarden, stamwarden and Stamsorc.
And i play Cp like 95% of the time because i see it a much more balanced than non cp.
I never had issues killing players with any class outside of stamdk currently unless i run a full defile build then i can kill everything except for builds utilising shields or those who have access to cloak.
I know many players want to be able to kill anything in less than 5 seconds but there are builds that are simply meant to not be able to be killed in 1v1. Those are only a problem when things enter the equation that give those builds tools which gives them killing power eg. proc sets, PotL scaling from all damage, poisons etc.
CPs aren't a problem for me as for every buff you get an enemy gets an equivalent to counter it completely unless we have things like befoul0 -
lazerlaz✭✭✭Heals are too strong even with defile debuff. Defile helps to balance things out to a degree I run a constant defile build in PvP and even with a fresh defile on a templar they are full health in seconds.
I don't see the issue.3 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And i play Cp like 95% of the time because i see it a much more balanced than non cp.
Excellent.
/exit thread
@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
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DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just to put this into perspective, if you're playing a dps Magplar in PvP, it takes almost a complete magicka pool to purify off all the debuffs being applied to you and heal to a decent amount. The other day it took me about 4 purifies + 6 BoLs to go from 10% to 80% HP. This is just another issue with Magplar, when we're forced defensive, it becomes increasingly hard to go back to offense. Defile is out of control right now, anyone defending it knows it, but doesn't want to lose it.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
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NoCP is way more balanced if you exclude the cheese. Of course, the cheese just shines even brighter there, but luckily not everyone plays a FotM Streamer Build with the latest absurd combos.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
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NoCP is way more balanced if you exclude the cheese. Of course, the cheese just shines even brighter there, but luckily not everyone plays a FotM Streamer Build with the latest absurd combos.
See the overall balance is worse because the cheese is still there meaning the balance is in fact worse.0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TBH defile is just as big a problem in noCP as it is in CP. Good luck staying on your feet with vigor heals with even the (unbuffed) 45% reduction if you have a ballista dot on you.
Arguing about which is "more" balanced is kind of silly. There are imbalanced aspects to both.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0 -
Amdar_Godkiller✭✭✭✭✭Befoul only adds about 25% healing reduction.
(30% base major defile + 15% base minor defile) x 1.55 = 69.75% maximum healing reduction
69.75% - (30% base major defile + 15% base minor defile) = 24.75% healing reduction
15% in blessed and 15% in quick recovery increase healing by
1.15 x 1.15 = 1.3225 = 132.25% = 32.25% more healing
Now if we apply the reduction increase given from full cp in befoul to build that has full cp in both healing augmenters, we get:
100% healing x 1.3225 healing modifier x (1-.2475 healing reducer) = 99.52%-100.51% (depending on whether or not that final 0.75% in befoul is actually counted or rounded down)
CP used to further increase healing potential through elfborn/precise strikes by an additional:
25% x (base heal strength/crit heal strength before CP) x crit chance = % increase to total healing from elfborn/PS
For non templars and non NBs, this would look like:
25% x 2/3 x ~50% = ~8.3% increase to total healing (for NBs and Templars, you would have substituted 5/8 for 2/3)
roughly 8.3% increase to total healing at 50% crit chance, with a maximum potential of 16.7% at 100% crit chance, and a minimum of 1.67% at 10% crit chance
This would be multiplicative with the 32.25% from quick recovery and blessed.
So at 60% crit chance, Max CP in all 3 would increase your total healing
1.3225 x 1.1 = 1.4548 = 45.48% more healing done
With perfect crit, healing could be increased by 54.3%. And even after a full 24.75% reduction from befoul, your total healing is still 16% above where it would be with no CP at all.
So the bigger issue was that healing was out of control due to CP, rather than defile being too OP, and this created a need for defile modifications.
With summerset the two should be more or less balanced. But you must invest at least as much into healing as others will into defiling.
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