TequilaFire wrote: »

I find players that LOS around trees and rocks and jump from tower floor to tower floor avoiding and then calling it 1vX the most boring.

haha amen to that @TequilaFire those guys get the bag treatment the most. Ignoring the war effort to play chase me for a YouTube video.

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

Are you talking about the constant rubber-banding of solo-pug zergs between Aleswell-Chalman Ash-Roebeck and Alessia-BRK?

Cause seriously, learn to read the map. Don't cap resources in those path-lines, unless you want the zerg to come find you.

Hit the back keep resources if you're interested in smaller scale PvP, but don't get in a huff if those few enemies you've been killing over and over call their own buddies to come and wipe you.

Cap some resource(s), stealth, and see if the recapping group is something/someone you want to fight.

Do you advocate zerg gameplay?

More to the point @Knowledge - Do you advocate the ability for defenders to zerg defense quickly? as removing keep cut off would lead to exactly that by those with numbers, and those that are organized.

Please stay on topic, as you are creating a Straw Man argument again.

I am just asking you if you advocate zerging though?

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

I find it interesting that this is how you define zerg gameplay.

I couldn't care less about this type of "zerg gameplay" because an organized raid will beat this type of zerg play any day.

Almost like Cyrodiil was designed for and favors organized raids and the factions that field them.

Well, perhaps what you and I define as a zerg is different.

Using this definition a zerg for me is a "large amount of players."

I define a zerg as one or more organized raids plus PUGs at the same objective.

See, your definition of a zerg as a large amount of players does not at all equate to your description of "zerg gameplay" as a bunch of people with no thought out builds standing around heavy attacking, etc.

A large amount of players can be disorgabized or organized, and typically the changes that work to break up disorganized groups (Like removing AOE caps) are exactly the type of changes that empower organized groups.

But you know this, surely, otherwise you woukdnt be goal post moving about whether a zerg is simply a large group or zerg gameplay is a large group playing badly.

Again, Cyrodiil favors, by design, organized raids and the factions that field them. You do your arguments a disservice by choosing not to distinguish between large groups of disorganized players and large organized raids (who often have PUGs in their wake).

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

Are you talking about the constant rubber-banding of solo-pug zergs between Aleswell-Chalman Ash-Roebeck and Alessia-BRK?

Cause seriously, learn to read the map. Don't cap resources in those path-lines, unless you want the zerg to come find you.

Hit the back keep resources if you're interested in smaller scale PvP, but don't get in a huff if those few enemies you've been killing over and over call their own buddies to come and wipe you.

Cap some resource(s), stealth, and see if the recapping group is something/someone you want to fight.

Do you advocate zerg gameplay?

More to the point @Knowledge - Do you advocate the ability for defenders to zerg defense quickly? as removing keep cut off would lead to exactly that by those with numbers, and those that are organized.

Please stay on topic, as you are creating a Straw Man argument again.

I am just asking you if you advocate zerging though?

I absolutely advocate that players should, assuming there is nothing more important to do on the map at that time, focus on an important objective(s). This being Cyrodiil, there are often more than one important objective at a time and a great deal of disagreement about what that important objective(s) is, which works to spread the fight out.

Zerging, in my definition, one or more organized raids + PUGs in the same location, happens naturally because certain objectives are important.

Or as I like to say it:
When my team has multiple raids plus PUGs show up at the same objective, its strategic movement in support of our faction goals at this important objective.
When the other teams do it, they're zerging and should be ashamed.

Syncronaut wrote: »

Main problem is that zerg is not punishable enogh. Sure you can bomb them, but you cant catch them if they keep moving.
(or you die before that)

1 easy fix would be a reduced speed to all players in zerg (team or no team).
Its a bit based on realizem, as when infantry is crouded to close, they have a harder time to move.

Or most of cyrodil games look like this:

Purple alliance.

Quite frankly I find the 'tactics' people use in ESO quite rudimentary. I am amazed at the lack of coordinated small man havoc groups
.
A good 6 man group can cut a keep port in about 30 seconds by taking the 3 resources. Do that to a few different keeps. Switch to cutting off reinforcements etc. Use you imagination.

No way a slow moving zerg can respond to that.

swippy wrote: »

why keep bringing up Art of War if you want to avoid appeal to authority?

and why keep bringing up battles where strategy and organization defeated the zerg, if you're arguing to nerf strategic organization?

i think strength in numbers is an appropriate advantage in a war game, and i think strategic organization is an appropriate advantage in a war game. as i said a couple times, there are places in this game where you can PvP without those qualities giving an advantage. why bring those details to Cyrodiil, when you can already get them elsewhere? i don't want our PvP homogenized or dumbed down.

Zerg doesnt need food and water.

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

That's rich.

Pretty sure nothing you've suggested is going to overcome the secret weapon of a good raid: organization.

Like I said above, if you and your faction can't match an organized raid, get good and get organized.

I don't want to rely on massive amounts of people to be able to PVP. It's just not fun for me.

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

That's rich.

Pretty sure nothing you've suggested is going to overcome the secret weapon of a good raid: organization.

Like I said above, if you and your faction can't match an organized raid, get good and get organized.

I don't want to rely on massive amounts of people to be able to PVP. It's just not fun for me.

So...you want to be able to match an organized raid without relying on other people, whether in a massive zerg or simply another organized raid?

Let me know how that works out for you. There are some, very good, very organized small groups who can do that,

I mean, there's plenty of other ways to PVP like bombing, ganking, small scale, 1vXing, none of which require massive amounts of other people...but they generally don't lead to campaign wins.

Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat and organized raids of 8 to 24 players. Cyrodiil favors, by design, organized raids and the factions that field them. There's plenty you can do in Cyrodiil that doesn't require joining or facing organized raids and you'll see plenty of fine PVP. You just won't, by design, make much of an impact on the war unless you can face the other organized raids.

Wanna fight other players? Do whatever the heck you like.
Wanna make an actual difference? Get good-Get organized.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

That's rich.

Pretty sure nothing you've suggested is going to overcome the secret weapon of a good raid: organization.

Like I said above, if you and your faction can't match an organized raid, get good and get organized.

I don't want to rely on massive amounts of people to be able to PVP. It's just not fun for me.

So...you want to be able to match an organized raid without relying on other people, whether in a massive zerg or simply another organized raid?

Let me know how that works out for you. There are some, very good, very organized small groups who can do that,

I mean, there's plenty of other ways to PVP like bombing, ganking, small scale, 1vXing, none of which require massive amounts of other people...but they generally don't lead to campaign wins.

Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat and organized raids of 8 to 24 players. Cyrodiil favors, by design, organized raids and the factions that field them. There's plenty you can do in Cyrodiil that doesn't require joining or facing organized raids and you'll see plenty of fine PVP. You just won't, by design, make much of an impact on the war unless you can face the other organized raids.

Wanna fight other players? Do whatever the heck you like.
Wanna make an actual difference? Get good-Get organized.

I don't think that's entirely true.

Knowledge wrote: »

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

Huh? Care to elaborate on that? I take that as an insult.

You are very selective on what / who you respond to.

Your straw man arguments are next level OP. This thread is about you making a suggestion that everyone thinks (bar you) will make zergs WORSE. Which we dont want. You are deflecting into some word games and jumping to assumptions.

Honestly. Fair play to your persistence with these threads, you have some energy for it. I just wish we could go back to bonafide debate

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

That's rich.

Pretty sure nothing you've suggested is going to overcome the secret weapon of a good raid: organization.

Like I said above, if you and your faction can't match an organized raid, get good and get organized.

I don't want to rely on massive amounts of people to be able to PVP. It's just not fun for me.

Hang on. Surely you ARE asking for that? You are asking for a clump of defence players to come to your aide? You want the defence zerg to arrive no?

Honestly @Knowledge your ability to ignore all.the comments where you get utterly trumped is astounding.

I ask again, are you advocating defence zergs in your suggestion. So the defending force can immediately zerg to defend against a possible smaller offence force / solo players flagging things?

But ill bet on your Ignoring the question for a third tine as you know I'm right

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I think that for a lot of people in this thread there is a fear that if the game is modified in such a way where there isn't any zerging or less zerging that PVP will become difficult for them.

Huh? Care to elaborate on that? I take that as an insult.

You are very selective on what / who you respond to.

Your straw man arguments are next level OP. This thread is about you making a suggestion that everyone thinks (bar you) will make zergs WORSE. Which we dont want. You are deflecting into some word games and jumping to assumptions.

Honestly. Fair play to your persistence with these threads, you have some energy for it. I just wish we could go back to bonafide debate

I can't debate with you when you talk down to me.

I haven't talked down to you. Quote me if you can as id like to know where.

My point is consistent throughout. You gave me a lecture on agruementation which was a dressing down however I've happily continued the debate as has everyone else.

I'm happy to debate however you wish but cheery picking your responses and having the arguement you want to have for the sake of it is no debate.

I'll put it simply. Your suggestion is to stop keeps getting cut off. In my view that will increase defence zergs. I'd love to hear / see how it doesn't support defence zerging, simple.

In an effort to avoid argument I am going to present my point in a different manner and put this thread back on its tracks.

I do not dispute that smaller groups do benefit from being able to cut off a keep in an effort to prevent a larger force from overwhelming them.

However, I do believe that it would be more beneficial as a whole to remove the cut off feature. The reason being is that I feel in order to combat extremely organized zerg forces that operate using "human wave" tactics we need to have the ability to rapidly get to a keep they are sieging.

When a large zerg force cuts off a keep they gain several advantages. The first is that they can respawn there from death via a Forward Camp and the whole of their attacking presence is already in range of it.

In contrast, the defender must move by mount across the terrain in order to pose a threat to the attacking zerg force. If the defender is disorganized in the sense that they are not all in a structured raid or on a voice chat they will trickle into near certain death while the attacker maintains the advantage.

The attacker now has the momentum to continue assaulting keeps in their path while affording to send smaller groups deeper into the defenders territory to further strain their manpower and debilitate their ability to mount a defense. At this juncture the attacker will essentially walk all over the defenders for the duration of their operating time or until they log off.