Night mothers gaze discussion

JerryAlder · April 2018

I think this is one of those sets that has served a very important purpose for all Pve players around across all skill levels. All experienced Stam dd players have this set golden. But also this set is easy for new player to get their hands on and get familiar with raids and group optimization. With this change Stamina DDs will refrain from group buffing sets (exception with war machine on some classes) and instead go full goggles without the need to think with your group. I like the sunder change better even though it's very harsh aswell and what will come of stam templar now we don't know. But back to NMG: Let's discuss here constructively how to make this set 1) Useful, but on the powerlevel of crafted set 2) Interactive with pve group play

Some ideas for the 5 piece to throw back and forth:

a) Give one of the stamina buffs to 6 group members nearby, Minor Savagery, Brutality or Major/Minor Berserk

b) Maybe some penetration thing with maybe similar mechanic as flanking, something interactive and maybe not 100% uptime so it would work in spesific trials

c) Maybe poison or disease procs or buffs

Anyway let me know what you think and let's make NMG great again!

//JerryAlder

xaraan · April 2018

Both this and Sunder should not have gotten nerfed. One but not the other I could see, but unless they are adding penetration to medium armor the way light armor has it, then it's a killer against stam builds.

Sunder was at least given some buffs to compensate for the change, but NM is now completely worthless for most to run at all, even solo - you get the same debuffs from spammable skills those classes most use.

Night Mother's needs reverted if they aren't adding some other form of pen for stammys.

And as for Alkosh - this makes pressure for tanks to have to run it even higher b/c a stam cannot afford to not as much pen as they can get sets like TFS and Spriggans. I mean, the argument is already there that this dps set is forced onto tanks even before this change, but with the change it's doubled down.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

TBH, Classless Major Fracture and not needing to slot a skill for it makes it extremely useful in a variety of Solo/PvP/Early content. Bam, dat Templar Jabs now has Major Fracture in vMA. Wafrazzle, Focused Aim now applies Minor and Major Fracture.

As a Craftable set, I don't think that it should be the cream of the crop for a Trial DPS to wear, that should be based on more Trials/Dungeon sourced sets.

Though I could see it getting another 5pc effect, like adding 129 WD, such that it isn't subpar outside of Trash AoE in Group Dungeons. Though that could make it over-perform in Solo environments.

Schattenfluegel · April 2018

Sharpened Trait could be an option now...

Sriivah · April 2018

IMO, the NMG change is really bad. Group synergy is something this game needs more of, not less, and this pushes all stam dps towards using TFS and probably either sharpened weapons or the lover stone. While more testing certainly needs to be done, my initial impression is that the night mother's and sunder changes remove an interesting part of setting up groups and make it harder to justify bringing stam builds to trials like vAS, where ranged magicka builds already dominate.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Sharpened Trait could be an option now...

Or lover mundus.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · April 2018

I beg to differ on the "group synergy" part. I really prefer to not have to think about what other people are going to be in my groups past what role they are. The change is annoying because overall pen sources for stamina builds are going down, but if they come back and compensate somewhere else, it would be fine with me. My performance should be dependent as little on other people and available buffs as possible.

Destruent · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

TBH, Classless Major Fracture and not needing to slot a skill for it makes it extremely useful in a variety of Solo/PvP/Early content. Bam, dat Templar Jabs now has Major Fracture in vMA. Wafrazzle, Focused Aim now applies Minor and Major Fracture.

As a Craftable set, I don't think that it should be the cream of the crop for a Trial DPS to wear, that should be based on more Trials/Dungeon sourced sets.

Though I could see it getting another 5pc effect, like adding 129 WD, such that it isn't subpar outside of Trash AoE in Group Dungeons. Though that could make it over-perform in Solo environments.

You don't really need major fracture in vMSA bc enemys have so low resistances and usually die really fast. This is just a straight up loss in usefull sets for endgame pve without gaining that much anywhere else. For me, the fact you had to combine different sets on stam-DDs for best performance, was one of the best things eso had after morrowind. It's sad ZOS takes that away.
At best it makes stamplars useless bc any stambuild can now provide minor breach/fracture.

edit:

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

I beg to differ on the "group synergy" part. I really prefer to not have to think about what other people are going to be in my groups past what role they are. The change is annoying because overall pen sources for stamina builds are going down, but if they come back and compensate somewhere else, it would be fine with me. My performance should be dependent as little on other people and available buffs as possible.

i guess, group content is not the content you should do...bc in GROUP play (comparable to team sports) you are highly (and should be) dependent on your groupmates/teammates...

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · April 2018

There's two different types of dependence you're talking about:

1) The dynamic dependence on people to play the game properly and be skilled enough to help you clear the content
2) The static dependence on having a very specific group composition to maximize performance

I'm all for #1. Bring the player, not the class (or in this case the specific gear setups) is the best philosophy IMO. Which necessitates that I'm not for #2 in the slightest.

JerryAlder · April 2018

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

I beg to differ on the "group synergy" part. I really prefer to not have to think about what other people are going to be in my groups past what role they are. The change is annoying because overall pen sources for stamina builds are going down, but if they come back and compensate somewhere else, it would be fine with me. My performance should be dependent as little on other people and available buffs as possible.

That's not really the point of trials in mmo is it now. There is 99% solo content in this game and trials is the only thing this nerf hits. You solo pvp, pve, 4-man content doesn't require any setting up either. Why now remove any piece of it from trials aswell. The only place where group play is incentivised and where group play should be mandatory to complete this content on vet atleast. And by group play I mean all parts of it. Movement, skills and itemization etc

Destruent · April 2018

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

There's two different types of dependence you're talking about:

1) The dynamic dependence on people to play the game properly and be skilled enough to help you clear the content
2) The static dependence on having a very specific group composition to maximize performance

I'm all for #1. Bring the player, not the class (or in this case the specific gear setups) is the best philosophy IMO.

i'm all for the need to bring different gear setups and also classes for maximum perfomrance...
Otherwise it's just: which class does highest DPS --> 8x...10x Class X, tank, Heal --> win

AverageJo3Gam3r · April 2018

Honestly, I like the change. Stam DPS can still get high pen values from running TFS. But it doesn't punish trial groups that bring a magDK or magplar in place of a stam DPS.

Lord_Eomer · April 2018

Applying Major Fracture and Breach can be useful in Solo contents like VMA,

Can be useful for Stam Sorc, DK and Templar.

Destruent · April 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Applying Major Fracture and Breach can be useful in Solo contents like VMA,

Can be useful for Stam Sorc, DK and Templar.

You could already get more than enough pen for vMSA even without this change...

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · April 2018

You're confusing me saying "my performance" with "my success at beating content."

Markedly different. I'm saying, if I do 40k in a trial group, I should be doing 40k in ANY situation with any group comp. My performance is solely dependent on myself.

However, if a fight requires 400,000k DPS to beat the race, I'm not expecting that I can solo it even if every other dps is only doing 10k.

There's a difference between playing with good people and being dependent on them for completion of an activity and being dependent on them for performance.

Tom Brady would still be an awesome QB even if the rest of his football squad were all ESO players. His team's success rate would be way lower, but his passes would still be on point as would his reads, etc. By all accounts, he would still be tom brady.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · April 2018

Destruent wrote: »

i'm all for the need to bring different gear setups and also classes for maximum perfomrance...
Otherwise it's just: which class does highest DPS --> 8x...10x Class X, tank, Heal --> win

Which person, but yes. That's about how I want it. If it turns out that there's one class that is overtly dominant, like 40% better, sure. You'll have class stacking (note: in other games, if the difference between the top and bottom specs/classes is ~10%, people seem to not care). That's a problem with balance, though, not the philosophy.

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Honestly, I like the change. Stam DPS can still get high pen values from running TFS. But it doesn't punish trial groups that bring a magDK or magplar in place of a stam DPS.

Exactly as it should be. Funny the guy I replied to last was talking about class stacking when it's already an issue as you outlined.

Destruent · April 2018

If you want that, you will also have to remove warhorn, spellpower cure, combat prayer, war machine, alkosh, elemental drain and all other buffs/debuffs which are for the entire group. sounds great tbh.

edit: and you are not dependent on such optimisation to complete any content...just for...you know...optimisation and getting better scores.

edit2: sure, he would still be the same QB, but you are also the same DD. You (as well as brady) just don't LOOK that good. His passes won't go to his receivers (bc they can't play) and your numbers will be lower. but your personal performance is still the same.

Lord_Eomer · April 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Applying Major Fracture and Breach can be useful in Solo contents like VMA,

Can be useful for Stam Sorc, DK and Templar.

You could already get more than enough pen for vMSA even without this change...

Not on Stamina toons (but still its easy content with low penetration stats) or even this is useful where tank not running in dungeons!

Destruent · April 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Applying Major Fracture and Breach can be useful in Solo contents like VMA,

Can be useful for Stam Sorc, DK and Templar.

You could already get more than enough pen for vMSA even without this change...

Not on Stamina toons (but still its easy content with low penetration stats) or even this is useful where tank not running in dungeons!

~ 2k CP
~3.5k (?) twice fanged serpent
~ 2k crusher
~ 4k lover

--> 11.5k pen

NBs have 5k major fracture already, wardens aswell. Templars get 1.3k from PotL. And if you really want you can use sharpened weapons for even more...don't get why you need even more pen in vMSA than you can already get when needed.

JerryAlder · April 2018

Okay as I said this thread was to discuss new ways for NMG to function as a group buffing set without it making stam too powerful(which it even isn't imo but anyway). There should be no question whether an Mmo should include team play or not. As destruent pointed out it is the core of dps for everyone but still only the same few ways this is done. No variety what so ever.

So now I haven't seen a single idea or comment how to achieve this and change the set to be interactive and interesting.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Sharpened Trait could be an option now...

Or lover mundus.

Or maces...

Maryal · April 2018

I don't like the change to NMG ... cant stack major fracture with major fracture (I'm a NB and my spammable causes major fracture already). Keep the set useful for groups ... perhaps give the set a reduction in the duration or severity of snares for the group, or increase resistance to physical damage or something useful.

Kolzki · April 2018

The set could have remained relevant by changing the resistance debuff to a new major/minor penetration buff. Perhaps applied for yourself and 2 nearby players on crit hits.

DeliCreep · April 2018

Stamina DDs have been overperforming compared to magicka DDs for a long time, these nerfs are needed as stamina DDs have many buff sets on live that can be used to buff the DPS of all stamina DDs in the group, while magicka DDs have none of it, so just keep these nerfs!

Weps · April 2018

Just revert the changes.
It's the only low point of this patch.

I don't understand the rational behind this choice, it takes out one huge portion of the game for the stamina people in trial and it throws the diversity they're trying to achieve completely out of the window, almost forcing every stam guy going with Spriggan or TFS.

I think the gap between magicka and stamina has been closed already this patch with the great buffs they did to magicka gameplay, no need to drop the black axe of nerf on those two sets

SupremeRissole · April 2018

DeliCreep wrote: »

Stamina DDs have been overperforming compared to magicka DDs for a long time, these nerfs are needed as stamina DDs have many buff sets on live that can be used to buff the DPS of all stamina DDs in the group, while magicka DDs have none of it, so just keep these nerfs!

They aren't overperforming. They are supposed to see bigger ST DPS figures than mag. Mag have range and more AOE which means they sacrifice a bit of single target. Magblades are still hitting close to stam figures anyway. The changes to NMG and sunder will see stam be deleted from raid teams.

Smaxx · April 2018

Having a set buff so good that it's considered mandatory isn't great either. As such I welcome the change, but there should also be potential alternatives to make up for this change in a reasonable and flexible way (not just forcing another item set for example).

Vapirko · April 2018

SupremeRissole wrote: »

DeliCreep wrote: »

Stamina DDs have been overperforming compared to magicka DDs for a long time, these nerfs are needed as stamina DDs have many buff sets on live that can be used to buff the DPS of all stamina DDs in the group, while magicka DDs have none of it, so just keep these nerfs!

They aren't overperforming. They are supposed to see bigger ST DPS figures than mag. Mag have range and more AOE which means they sacrifice a bit of single target. Magblades are still hitting close to stam figures anyway. The changes to NMG and sunder will see stam be deleted from raid teams.

This is what I don’t get about magicka palyers that QQ over stamina single target dps. They want to have shields, be able to continue dps at range when mechanics prevent stam from being able to attack and they want higher single target dps? It’s the same in PvP they want the range, the shields and they want the mobility and snare removal that stam builds have. It’s just silly.

Tannus15 · April 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Applying Major Fracture and Breach can be useful in Solo contents like VMA,

Can be useful for Stam Sorc, DK and Templar.

You could already get more than enough pen for vMSA even without this change...

Not on Stamina toons (but still its easy content with low penetration stats) or even this is useful where tank not running in dungeons!

~ 2k CP
~3.5k (?) twice fanged serpent
~ 2k crusher
~ 4k lover

--> 11.5k pen

NBs have 5k major fracture already, wardens aswell. Templars get 1.3k from PotL. And if you really want you can use sharpened weapons for even more...don't get why you need even more pen in vMSA than you can already get when needed.

TFS is less pen than NMG for vMA.
You could drop lover for warrior AND TFS for NMG and you'll be sitting on 9.6k pen which is around perfect for the last boss, especially now that you can get NMG jewellery.

Smaxx · April 2018

Tannus15 wrote: »

TFS is less pen than NMG for vMA.
You could drop lover for warrior AND TFS for NMG and you'll be sitting on 9.6k pen which is around perfect for the last boss, especially now that you can get NMG jewellery.

Not sure I can follow.

Twice-Fanged Serpent gets you 5 stacks of 860 penetration (if golden; with 1 purple ring I'm at 850), add 5,280 from Surprise Attack, and you're at 9,560 physical penetration in total.

For solo content this is probably more than enough.

For raids you can add 2,108 from crusher and 3,010 from Roar of Alkosh (and Major Fracture from another source). So we're totaling in 14,678; or more specifically: 3,522 left. If you really want to, you can get that remaining from Champion Points or the Lover Mundus Stone, but I don't really see the appear to maximize it at all costs. (Using one club might be another option.)

JohnStorm · April 2018

SupremeRissole wrote: »

They aren't overperforming. They are supposed to see bigger ST DPS figures than mag. Mag have range and more AOE which means they sacrifice a bit of single target. Magblades are still hitting close to stam figures anyway. The changes to NMG and sunder will see stam be deleted from raid teams.

Stamina will still have more ST dps than mag, they always have. As for magicka having more AoE, that is only true when they pop a destro ultimate. Staminas have plenty of AoE options which are basic non-ultimate skills from both the dw and 2h skill lines (dw's spin-to-win, shrouded daggers, 2h's reverse slice, forceful passive), and also let's not forget endless hail and caltrops...

A lot of people were playing stamina before every raid team started using sunder and NMG, and they were performing just fine. The lost penetration can be remedied just by using Lover mundus and a few more points into pen CP. I personally never liked the use of sunder because it is a pure ST debuff set and it's useless for trash fights or fights with mutliple bosses.