kargen27 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Why are people trying to nerf a zerg?

Yes yes... You're better than everybody at everything excdpt overwhelming odds...sorry the math doesn't work out for you all of the time.

Bgs has a pop cap go there.

I'm not trying to nerf a zerg I am arguing for a balance in the game to give everyone a chance. This is a game after all and should be played for fun.

My argument is primarily focused on one main factor and that is that whoever has the larger and more organized force will always prevail. A side that has less organization (a lot of small scattered groups) is going to lose the campaign against a zerg force that has been organized and is using its sheer size to overcome any opposition in the form of skill or tactical finesse.

As a lower numbered group, even if organized, you can't even prevail tactically or strategically if your opponent exceeds a certain number of players. Your skill and ability count for nothing and you even lose the capability to quickly defend a keep by being instantly cut off giving further advantage to the massive group that is attacking.

You think you are presenting something that will help the smaller groups but you are actually proposing something that will hurt the smaller groups. You are proposing to allow a large group to be able to port to any location on the map so long as they own the keep. Makes it easy for a large group to stay in control of any resource they have. Right now it is a perfectly viable strategy to isolate a couple of keeps and have small groups hit each knowing the zerg can't get to both and might be late getting to either keep.

If you are in a small group there is a way to annoy the zerg beyond isolating a keep and taking it before they can get there. You can pick off those in the group that fall behind causing the group to either go back and rez or press on a bit smaller. You can ambush at choke points. Sure your entire group might get thumped but with a bit of planning you can take a lot more of them with you slowing the entire group down.

Isolating keeps and other resources is one of the best weapons/strategies small groups have. I've been on both sides of it and know how a small group can really throw a wrench in things with a bit of planning. Doesn't need to be elaborate or precisely coordinated. Your idea would wreck Cyrodiil for the small groups.

Perfect articulation @kargen27

I could explain that zerging happens naturally when multiple forces from a faction converge on a certain objective because its the most strategically important objective at the time.

I could explain that PVDoor happens because most PVP players prefer to fight rather than sit and guard the back keeps.

I could explain that ZOS is making changes to benefit defenders and is going to take the time to see how those changes impact the game rather than implementing any of the OP's suggestions.

But I think I'm just going to go with this: Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat on a level that the servers (probably) can't support anymore thanks to a falling population because of various things. It was designed for large battles, groups of 8 to 24 players, and factions that could field multiple large organized raids.

Of course Cyrodiil favors the factions who can field organized raids! That's exactly what its designed to do!

OP's answer (paraphrased): organized raids have it too easy, level the playing field for the rest of us who want real PVP and make it more fair for everyone

My answer: Oh, you can't compete with an organized raid? How sad. Have you tried getting organized yourselves?

Because Cyrodiil favors, by design, organized raids of any size. Cyrodiil's objective based campaigns favor, by design, organized raids of any size. Numbers will tell, but more often, superior organization and tactics win out (if we're going to conflate both Cyrodiil and history here).

Get good - No, more than that - Get Organized. If you want to compete in Raid v Raid - and Cyrodiil is by design a Raid v Raid zone, AvAvA - you'd better get organized or you'll continue to whine about how organized raids have all the unfair advantages. No duh. That's what Cyrodiil was designed for in the first place.

Now I am going to actually engage with what you think is a problem.

I think that there should be more advantages objectives for small scalers.

I like the towns they are easy to capture for a small group.
But their AP creating little quests but they are PvE quests in PVP... they feel more like you are abandoning your alliances while you are doing these dinky pointless things.

My idea would be having moving objectives, supply trains, that you could attack as a small scaler. These supply caravans have to move further when you have more keeps and perhaps you could have them as a population balancing mechanic as well now I think about it.

Large organised groups can go take keeps small scale groups can go attack supply caravans.. small scales could also be defending them.

Knowledge wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I think you are backwards on your cutting off a keep thinking. Cutting off supply lines during war is a viable strategy and cutting off a keep in game is a similar strategy. A small group can use cutting off a keep to their advantage. If you couldn't cut off a keep a large zerg could just have sentries posted at each keep and travel where the trouble is. Cutting off the keep you know you have a little time to get the doors down before the big group can arrive on mounts. Isolating a keep is exactly what lets smaller groups have a chance to influence the map.

With camps the attacking forces can also revive and return to battle negating the advantage a defending force would have in getting back to the battle.

Your argument can't really be applied to this game as we can revive people in battle from death (impossible in real life). We can also continually respawn after being mortally wounded if someone can't revive us.

The main issue I have is force readiness. When an enemy zerg suddenly arrives at a keep in force and cuts that keep off before it can be defended they have a significant advantage over the defender.

Since we all want to have instant gratification, to an extent, and roam around finding fights we don't usually sit at a keep with a large force waiting for an enemy to strike. Usually we will just be cut off and the enemy will have a 40+ man force hitting the keep with siege.

We're then forced to move to that location at a snails pace while they attack a nearly empty keep while having the initiative. This rewards the organized zerg and prevents disorganized PVPers from being able to mount a reasonable defense.

That's why I've suggested things to make multiple objectives worthwhile at the same time and to slow down zergs ad nauseam. No time to link it all or decently summarize it all but some of it includes:

- make keeps worth more the longer they are held (so that people don't just fight over the same few over and over)
- make it worthwhile to have defenders/attackers focus resources (somewhat addressed in Summerset); my version is buff the value of level 5 resources for defenders and have degredation of the defense buffs faster the greater the number of attackers who stay at a resource (you still flip it the same but sticking around makes the keep more vulnerable)
- give valuable targets that are mobile (i.e. mobile flags such as a well-guarded supply/diplomat/prisoner transport) to give bored zergers and those who want small-scale fights something to do
- make the Imperial City base-game and tie holding districts into the Alliance War; have scrolls, keeps, and districts interact with each other in meaningful ways (which can be tied to attack and defense of keeps through buffs, rapid transit, etc.)
- other stuff

Hmm once again i’ll Bring up the new Catapult system being implemented creating Zone effects. These will be huge counters to Zerg movements and coupled with players wearing VD defending breaches...KaaBooom!

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

Are you talking about the constant rubber-banding of solo-pug zergs between Aleswell-Chalman Ash-Roebeck and Alessia-BRK?

Cause seriously, learn to read the map. Don't cap resources in those path-lines, unless you want the zerg to come find you.

Hit the back keep resources if you're interested in smaller scale PvP, but don't get in a huff if those few enemies you've been killing over and over call their own buddies to come and wipe you.

Cap some resource(s), stealth, and see if the recapping group is something/someone you want to fight.

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

I find it interesting that this is how you define zerg gameplay.

I couldn't care less about this type of "zerg gameplay" because an organized raid will beat this type of zerg play any day.

Almost like Cyrodiil was designed for and favors organized raids and the factions that field them.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

I find it interesting that this is how you define zerg gameplay.

I couldn't care less about this type of "zerg gameplay" because an organized raid will beat this type of zerg play any day.

Almost like Cyrodiil was designed for and favors organized raids and the factions that field them.

Well, perhaps what you and I define as a zerg is different.

Using this definition a zerg for me is a "large amount of players."

Superior numbers and/or vastly superior weaponry are what win battles. This fanciful belief that every Cyrodiil battle needs to mirror the movie 300 is absurd.

Knowledge wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I have an issue wrapping my head around people advocating zerg gameplay. For me it's very dull and mindless and I wouldn't want to promote it in any capacity. Hordes of people that have no thought out builds just heavy attacking a small group of people and standing on a flag to gain their AP after an extremely slow and lag filled conflict makes me cringe.

Are you talking about the constant rubber-banding of solo-pug zergs between Aleswell-Chalman Ash-Roebeck and Alessia-BRK?

Cause seriously, learn to read the map. Don't cap resources in those path-lines, unless you want the zerg to come find you.

Hit the back keep resources if you're interested in smaller scale PvP, but don't get in a huff if those few enemies you've been killing over and over call their own buddies to come and wipe you.

Cap some resource(s), stealth, and see if the recapping group is something/someone you want to fight.

Do you advocate zerg gameplay?

I advocate leveraging your Strategic, Social, and Combat skills in Cyrodiil.

So, yes. At its base Zerging is Social Skill. Working together.

@LonePirate @Knowledge

Battle favors those with the most power. Be that through sheer numbers, manipulation of resources at hand, proper place/timing, or a combination of all of the above and more.

Power is the deciding factor.

Just like real war...numbers matter, but can be overcome with better tactics...I dont see anything wrong with this...its just how it is...rather realistic. They need to add a PvP area though for small scale...enforced by say, maximum group size of six...and you can only engage with a group that is not currently already in combat...enforced small scale PvP