Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Untrue. Stamden burst isn't that hard, or even above really any other classes. Buffs, sub, dizzy, dawn. That isn't to say its not preventable, but its not hard at all. Stamsorc has by far a higher learning curve, since it requires mixing pressure with burst, the defense is weaker, (less innate tankiness, no shimmering, streak is nice though for rock climbing) the sustain is more active vs passive. If you want to be an Xv1 hero, then yeah, maybe a squishy bleedsorc is better.

You don't see many wardens because its 1) Morrow locked. So not everyone has them 2) Class/original spec loyalty is a thing. i.e. achievements, rankings laziness etc. 3) You might have morrow, and not care about specific characters, but then you have to buy another slot if you have 8 prior. and 4) NB is fotm and cloak is the ultimate OW too.

I just don’t see how anyone could argue that stamden burst is easier to land than Stam sorc. It’s not easier, it just hits harder. The only difference is you’re trading hurricane + implosion for beetles.

It’s a bit disingenuous to argue that hurricane and implosion have a higher skill requirement than beetles.

Crit surge is a heal anytime you Crit. Green lotus is a heal any time you light attack. Animation cancelling is definitely a higher skill cap than wearing some + Crit gear.

And don’t get me started on dark deal vs a CONAL spores.


Stamden is stronger because it’s burst is concentrated as opposed to mindless and shimmering shield is OP. But you can’t argue that shimmering shield is easier to use than dark deal in this new patch. If you cast shim shield when you aren’t getting pelted by projectiles, RIP your Magicka.

Again, I’m not saying that Stam sorc is stronger than stamden. I’m just saying that it’s far more beginner friendly.

Hurricane is hardly burst though, its just pressure. Implosion is pretty stupid, but you still have to get them sub 15%, or into execute spam range. Its burst is harder since to use hurricanes pressure to maintain burst, you must stick to your target, and get them low to implosion threshold with the inferior burst. Wheras on a warden you press one button before, then aim it.

Nothing on stamsorc really says, oh, this is easy. Its mitigation is based on mobility, instead of also having tankiness. And yeah, dark deal was buffed by ZOSs quest against counterplay, but I don't think it carries them that much, since you give up casting anything during, and lose mag for your mobility.

I think we’re saying the same thing but in two different ways.

IV_Deity wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Then why vote yes? How you've explained it, it takes skill to actually use a warden, so how is this OP?

Because for the 20% of stamden players who can reliably land shalks by timing them with a gap closer, it is an extremely powerful class for which there is no easy counter.

Even at the highest level of play, counters need to be possible. But I’m able to absolutely murder whole groups of people by running behind a corner, laying down shalks, activating my back bar clever alch set, running back into LOS and stampeding my targets at just the right time. Shalks can’t be blocked or dodged, and if the target(s) dodge roll then they take full dmg and stun from the DBoS that always follows. Then reverse slice 2 win. All of those attacks are AOE.
It’s one of the hardest combos in the game to pull off because both the shalks and the DB are conal instead of targeted, and you have to stampede at EXACTLY the right time. But it’s a really strong combo.


Can most stamdens pull that off? No. Only a handful can - most of whom I group with regularly. But as a combo, it just does too much damage for a class with as high mobility and healing as the stamden has. And shimmering shield providing defense at range allows us to LOS to set up the combo really easily.

Edit: The one thing stamdens aren’t great at is dueling because LOS is not an option in duels. In a 1v1, shalks become fairly avoidable by skillful play.

Thogard wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Its you . Good to see you . I feel shimmering shield is OP. It shouldn't be spammable similar to other shields in game with crazy ultimate generation. Permafrost is definitely OP in group fights. 3 wardens can wipe out entire group of 15 people if all activate at same time . Even 1 permafrost is extremely OP. I dont see any reason why stamwardens are not using in place of dawn breaker in group fights. I think many are not aware of permafrost and just good at copying someone builds.

Apart from that I dont see any major thing that make warden OP. Same buffs for other classes. Warden has no CC or execute. Rely on weapon skills for that.

NB , no offense, so many that cannot be countered. NB is crazy OP .
One example . Just mark target cloak snipe, cloak snipe until target die. You can move in full speed in cloak and run around with 30M distance from target. Target cannot even make 1 single light attack on you.

In response to the bolded portion, the answer is earthgore. Three stacked DBs can kill through earthgore. Permafrost spreads the damage too far out over time.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Untrue. Stamden burst isn't that hard, or even above really any other classes. Buffs, sub, dizzy, dawn. That isn't to say its not preventable, but its not hard at all. Stamsorc has by far a higher learning curve, since it requires mixing pressure with burst, the defense is weaker, (less innate tankiness, no shimmering, streak is nice though for rock climbing) the sustain is more active vs passive. If you want to be an Xv1 hero, then yeah, maybe a squishy bleedsorc is better.

You don't see many wardens because its 1) Morrow locked. So not everyone has them 2) Class/original spec loyalty is a thing. i.e. achievements, rankings laziness etc. 3) You might have morrow, and not care about specific characters, but then you have to buy another slot if you have 8 prior. and 4) NB is fotm and cloak is the ultimate OW too.

I just don’t see how anyone could argue that stamden burst is easier to land than Stam sorc. It’s not easier, it just hits harder. The only difference is you’re trading hurricane + implosion for beetles.

It’s a bit disingenuous to argue that hurricane and implosion have a higher skill requirement than beetles.

Crit surge is a heal anytime you Crit. Green lotus is a heal any time you light attack. Animation cancelling is definitely a higher skill cap than wearing some + Crit gear.

And don’t get me started on dark deal vs a CONAL spores.


Stamden is stronger because it’s burst is concentrated as opposed to mindless and shimmering shield is OP. But you can’t argue that shimmering shield is easier to use than dark deal in this new patch. If you cast shim shield when you aren’t getting pelted by projectiles, RIP your Magicka.

Again, I’m not saying that Stam sorc is stronger than stamden. I’m just saying that it’s far more beginner friendly.

Hurricane is hardly burst though, its just pressure. Implosion is pretty stupid, but you still have to get them sub 15%, or into execute spam range. Its burst is harder since to use hurricanes pressure to maintain burst, you must stick to your target, and get them low to implosion threshold with the inferior burst. Wheras on a warden you press one button before, then aim it.

Nothing on stamsorc really says, oh, this is easy. Its mitigation is based on mobility, instead of also having tankiness. And yeah, dark deal was buffed by ZOSs quest against counterplay, but I don't think it carries them that much, since you give up casting anything during, and lose mag for your mobility.

I think we’re saying the same thing but in two different ways.

IV_Deity wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Then why vote yes? How you've explained it, it takes skill to actually use a warden, so how is this OP?

Because for the 20% of stamden players who can reliably land shalks by timing them with a gap closer, it is an extremely powerful class for which there is no easy counter.

Even at the highest level of play, counters need to be possible. But I’m able to absolutely murder whole groups of people by running behind a corner, laying down shalks, activating my back bar clever alch set, running back into LOS and stampeding my targets at just the right time. Shalks can’t be blocked or dodged, and if the target(s) dodge roll then they take full dmg and stun from the DBoS that always follows. Then reverse slice 2 win. All of those attacks are AOE.
It’s one of the hardest combos in the game to pull off because both the shalks and the DB are conal instead of targeted, and you have to stampede at EXACTLY the right time. But it’s a really strong combo.


Can most stamdens pull that off? No. Only a handful can - most of whom I group with regularly. But as a combo, it just does too much damage for a class with as high mobility and healing as the stamden has. And shimmering shield providing defense at range allows us to LOS to set up the combo really easily.

Edit: The one thing stamdens aren’t great at is dueling because LOS is not an option in duels. In a 1v1, shalks become fairly avoidable by skillful play.

So the perhaps we should measure the simplicity of 2h and DBoS.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Its you . Good to see you . I feel shimmering shield is OP. It shouldn't be spammable similar to other shields in game with crazy ultimate generation. Permafrost is definitely OP in group fights. 3 wardens can wipe out entire group of 15 people if all activate at same time . Even 1 permafrost is extremely OP. I dont see any reason why stamwardens are not using in place of dawn breaker in group fights. I think many are not aware of permafrost and just good at copying someone builds.

Apart from that I dont see any major thing that make warden OP. Same buffs for other classes. Warden has no CC or execute. Rely on weapon skills for that.

NB , no offense, so many that cannot be countered. NB is crazy OP .
One example . Just mark target cloak snipe, cloak snipe until target die. You can move in full speed in cloak and run around with 30M distance from target. Target cannot even make 1 single light attack on you.

In response to the bolded portion, the answer is earthgore. Three stacked DBs can kill through earthgore. Permafrost spreads the damage too far out over time.

the aoe major protection is way too strong. They might not be instagibbing people but they will not get killed easy while that thing is up.
And the damage plus stun is also icing on it.

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Its you . Good to see you . I feel shimmering shield is OP. It shouldn't be spammable similar to other shields in game with crazy ultimate generation. Permafrost is definitely OP in group fights. 3 wardens can wipe out entire group of 15 people if all activate at same time . Even 1 permafrost is extremely OP. I dont see any reason why stamwardens are not using in place of dawn breaker in group fights. I think many are not aware of permafrost and just good at copying someone builds.

Apart from that I dont see any major thing that make warden OP. Same buffs for other classes. Warden has no CC or execute. Rely on weapon skills for that.

NB , no offense, so many that cannot be countered. NB is crazy OP .
One example . Just mark target cloak snipe, cloak snipe until target die. You can move in full speed in cloak and run around with 30M distance from target. Target cannot even make 1 single light attack on you.

In response to the bolded portion, the answer is earthgore. Three stacked DBs can kill through earthgore. Permafrost spreads the damage too far out over time.

the aoe major protection is way too strong. They might not be instagibbing people but they will not get killed easy while that thing is up.
And the damage plus stun is also icing on it.

AOE major protection from ice storm does not apply to the caster, only the warden’s groupmates.

I just tested and at least the Northern Storm morph applies Major Protection to the caster (on the buff sheet and against NPCs, anyways, I didn't have somebody to help me test if the buff was actually applied to player damage.) I didn't test the other morph.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

Yeah I think a lot of people don’t realize how much damage the warden loses due to having to spend so many GCDs on bufftime. The rhythm is completely different on a warden - much more buffing and positioning and less mindless ability spamming.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Its you . Good to see you . I feel shimmering shield is OP. It shouldn't be spammable similar to other shields in game with crazy ultimate generation. Permafrost is definitely OP in group fights. 3 wardens can wipe out entire group of 15 people if all activate at same time . Even 1 permafrost is extremely OP. I dont see any reason why stamwardens are not using in place of dawn breaker in group fights. I think many are not aware of permafrost and just good at copying someone builds.

Apart from that I dont see any major thing that make warden OP. Same buffs for other classes. Warden has no CC or execute. Rely on weapon skills for that.

NB , no offense, so many that cannot be countered. NB is crazy OP .
One example . Just mark target cloak snipe, cloak snipe until target die. You can move in full speed in cloak and run around with 30M distance from target. Target cannot even make 1 single light attack on you.

In response to the bolded portion, the answer is earthgore. Three stacked DBs can kill through earthgore. Permafrost spreads the damage too far out over time.

the aoe major protection is way too strong. They might not be instagibbing people but they will not get killed easy while that thing is up.
And the damage plus stun is also icing on it.

AOE major protection from ice storm does not apply to the caster, only the warden’s groupmates.

I just tested and at least the Northern Storm morph applies Major Protection to the caster (on the buff sheet and against NPCs, anyways, I didn't have somebody to help me test if the buff was actually applied to player damage.) I didn't test the other morph.

Ugh if that’s true I need to go recast my vote for warden class rep... I will also test it.

EDIT: tested it. TIL caster does indeed get major protection. They need to edit that tooltip.

You realize the Major Protection is part of the base skill and has always applied to the caster and up to 5 allies in its radius. Also no idea why anyone would say that a named buff, one that at least 3 class have easy access to, would be "Way to strong" Its a useful ultimate sure, but not the one anyone who doesn't know the value of support will ever run. Really it only competes with Negate as an Ultimate. Not defensive enough to replace those, and not offensive enough for those.

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Stam Warden is OP against every class except stamblade. Stamblade is a hard counter for Stam warden, and right now everyone is playing a stamblade.

So I’m going to go with a “yes” answer with the caveat that it doesn’t matter since everyone is a stamblade anyway.

actually at stamplar also.
big damage, purify and pirifuing light are harder to counter that stamden's combos.
usualy killed every warden at my stamplar ~ same or higher exp as me (but found some ppls on eu too hard for me - bad ping + my pc, mouse and keybord are not gaming) because right positioning helps a lot against stamden, but vs stamplar, if your jabs are mostly for passives and ending someones dodge while execute, enemy can as usual only eat tonns of damage and feel himself useless.
but its bad example, because templars are op in general now and purge mechanics extremly need to be changed for general balance.
Also, i've done there nice work with build (didn't invented something completly new, its not hard to guess what i used on it to be honest but never seen anyone in same build also) to have great healing and damage in heavy and almost not been affected by snares. In another builds vs stamden it can be too hard yep

DHale wrote: »

If you are named a Kodi then yes if you are not named Kodi no. If you are not named Kodi but run a build from someone named Kodi then you are definelty not op.