magsorc sustain sets, pros and cons

NinchiTV · April 2018

Theory crafting pvp magsorc for summerset and i need your input on which would overall be the best choice between bloodthorn, lich and arch mage.

Bloodthorn:
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you deal direct damage, you restore 660 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds

At the moment this is currently what im leaning towards, the stam recov is whats really appealing since magsorcs dont recover stam other than recovery which tends to be low, so im thinking constant stam recov is a major plus and has one over the other two sets. After all most magsorcs die because they cant CC break.

Lich:
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you fall below 33% Magicka, increase your Magicka Recovery by 1032 for 20 seconds. This effect can occur once every 1 minute.

We all know how powerful this set is and honestly probably the best for pure magic sustain. The only down side is IF you proc lich and you have a magic drain poison on you or the pressure is too much and you stay at low magic youre *** for 40 secs until it procs again. This seems to happen very rarely but can still happen.

Arch Mage:
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(5 items) When you deal damage with a fully-charged Heavy Attack, you restore 834 Magicka.

The appealing thing about this set is there is no cooldown or secs you have to wait for it to proc, you simply heavy attack with a restro with the addition of the 2k -ish mag recov you have PLUS the mag dmg / restore magic weapon enchant and youre getting 3k magic back with EVERY heavy attack. On paper this seems very reliable.

Skander · April 2018

Biro123 · April 2018

Never tried archmage - but I always thought it looked terrible - especially compared to bloodthorn.

Tried bloodthorn - wasn't a fan. When you really need the sustain, you're usually on the defensive, meaning your attacks aren't happening enough to use it to its full potential, and decided I preferred a more reliable 'vanilla' recovery stat. Maybe I just didn't give it enough time to get used to it.

Lich is good - but I tend to think slightly overrated.

Checkmath · April 2018

archmage isnt any good, since you need to do fully charged heavy attacks, which already grant you magicka return, archmage will not help there much.
lich overall is very nice and everyone is using it, so additional 1000+ recovery is very strong.
bloodthorn also is nice, especially since you can have it only on your frontbar. this enables a 5/5/2 setup, when you combine it with another set, which only needs to be slotted on the backbar (lich or wizards riposte).
overoll one of the stronger sets for magsorc still is amberplasm with 250 stam and magicka recovery as last bonus. but this set needs to be active all the time, so no monsterset in this case.

NinchiTV · April 2018

@Checkmath yeah 5/5/2 is the goal, spinners/sustain and a monster set depending on the group or lack there of. Im starting to think lich might be it for most situations.

Checkmath · April 2018

yep lich is the best set you will get there for sustain. warlock would be a similar set, wouldnt be effected by drain poisons too, but effect is smaller ( around 9k magicka instantly).
if you want anotheer set instead a sustain set, wizards riposte is very strong on a shieldstacking class.

Brutusmax1mus · April 2018

250 mag and stam regen at all times

Vs

1000 burst magicka regen that is buffed by your minor and major buffs. (333 mag recovery - the average over 60 seconds)

For magicka sustain the is no comparison. Imo, go lich and enchant your staff with a damage/stam restore glyph if you're feeling the stamina pressure often.

NinchiTV · April 2018

oooh yes ive been using riposte and shackle for some time now, but against high level players most of the time its a stale mate because i dont have the dps to finish the player off and riposte makes it so they cant really touch my HP. Im looking to change it around, i want to burst players down again (good players that is, noobs i have no trouble with) so lich/spinners/slimecraw is looking good

ak_pvp · April 2018

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

250 mag and stam regen at all times

Vs

1000 burst magicka regen that is buffed by your minor and major buffs. (333 mag recovery - the average over 60 seconds)

For magicka sustain the is no comparison. Imo, go lich and enchant your staff with a damage/stam restore glyph if you're feeling the stamina pressure often.

Desert rose outperforms Lich, but doesn't really match the playstyle.

Brutusmax1mus · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

250 mag and stam regen at all times

Vs

1000 burst magicka regen that is buffed by your minor and major buffs. (333 mag recovery - the average over 60 seconds)

For magicka sustain the is no comparison. Imo, go lich and enchant your staff with a damage/stam restore glyph if you're feeling the stamina pressure often.

Desert rose outperforms Lich, but doesn't really match the playstyle.

Theoretically, sure. The health and definitely resists are wasted on a mag sorc imo. I've also used it and without 3 plus bearing down on you, it does not proc on cooldown, especially in 1v1. It also doesn't proc if you're safe, or staying at range, safe in mines, line of sighting or behind a zerg. You're right, it's just not a sorcs playstyle. They didnt even talk about dr so it's neither here nor there.

Biro123 · April 2018

Bumi Rockafella wrote: »

oooh yes ive been using riposte and shackle for some time now, but against high level players most of the time its a stale mate because i dont have the dps to finish the player off and riposte makes it so they cant really touch my HP. Im looking to change it around, i want to burst players down again (good players that is, noobs i have no trouble with) so lich/spinners/slimecraw is looking good

Or, you could use combat prayer for your heal - giving you minor berserk, - ie the same damage boost as slimecraw - and then you're free to choose another monster set. I went bloodspawn on my spinner/lich build for the stam recov and extra ulti's.. (and resists which went quite well with the combat-prayer minor resists - adding a fair bit of unshielded resilience)

Minalan · April 2018

As it was stated elsewhere, the 1000 recovery from lich gets bonuses from every skill, passive, and buff you’re rocking. Major intellect, Mage guild regen passive, vampire, Altmer regen passive, continuous assault, etc. It adds up quickly.

The 40 second cooldown hurts, but you can hold your pot and use that during the proc downtime. Time it right and one of the two is always active.

Lord-Otto · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

As it was stated elsewhere, the 1000 recovery from lich gets bonuses from every skill, passive, and buff you’re rocking. Major intellect, Mage guild regen passive, vampire, Altmer regen passive, continuous assault, etc. It adds up quickly.

The 40 second cooldown hurts, but you can hold your pot and use that during the proc downtime. Time it right and one of the two is always active.

5100 Lich regen here...
v(^.^)

Maulkin · April 2018

Skander wrote: »

Echoes of @Ezareth. Sadly the endless grind in BDO broke him as a gamer and as a man.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2018

Kinda Depends on how you want to set things up. Do you plan to run both 5 pieces at the same time? I think that makes me want to go away from Lich. Lich is one of those sets where I like to be able to control the proc.

That said, you could just run jewelry and back bar a resto. That would allow for a full 5 piece, 2 piece monster, and Master inferno on your front bar (with 3 lich Jewelry).

You could also take that concept a bit further and use a pure damage set on your front bar. For example, Front bar would be 5 Spinner, 3 Lich, 3 willpower, One domihaus, and you would flip the 5 piece when you swapped. The 2H weapon change is a big buff to builds that alternate 5 piece sets between bars.

Maulkin · April 2018

Do you plan to run a Master's Fire/Shock staff? Because if not, none of these sets are a patch on Amber Plasm.

Although if you do plan to run 5-5-2 without Master's, I'd be tempted to forego sustain sets altogether.

WuffyCerulei · April 2018

I'm always gonna live by Lich. The sustain's too good. I also use Shacklebreaker, and my sorc's a lizard, so stam ain't an issue for me.

Minalan · April 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kinda Depends on how you want to set things up. Do you plan to run both 5 pieces at the same time? I think that makes me want to go away from Lich. Lich is one of those sets where I like to be able to control the proc.

That said, you could just run jewelry and back bar a resto. That would allow for a full 5 piece, 2 piece monster, and Master inferno on your front bar (with 3 lich Jewelry).

You could also take that concept a bit further and use a pure damage set on your front bar. For example, Front bar would be 5 Spinner, 3 Lich, 3 willpower, One domihaus, and you would flip the 5 piece when you swapped. The 2H weapon change is a big buff to builds that alternate 5 piece sets between bars.

This... is a build I hadn’t considered. 5/5/3
Willpower staff and necklace
Two lich rings, one body piece, back bar staff
Domihaus shoulder (med or heavy)
Five piece spinner set body.

The only issue that I see is that it’s missing either a medium or a heavy piece for the extra undaunted bonus. You’re taking the extra light piece regen/cost instead, which is good.

Lord-Otto · April 2018

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Derra · April 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Improved cage will aid to burst aswell as it will always deliver it´s dmg.

I´m personally more concerned with cluttered bars.

Subversus · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Improved cage will aid to burst aswell as it will always deliver it´s dmg.

I´m personally more concerned with cluttered bars.

This is probably the reason why most people won’t run it. Unless you have a perfected staff I can’t see any reason why you’d run rune cage over reach tbf, as you’d have to most likely drop frags, mines or one shield none of which I’m really comfortable without...

Derra · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Improved cage will aid to burst aswell as it will always deliver it´s dmg.

I´m personally more concerned with cluttered bars.

This is probably the reason why most people won’t run it. Unless you have a perfected staff I can’t see any reason why you’d run rune cage over reach tbf, as you’d have to most likely drop frags, mines or one shield none of which I’m really comfortable without...

All depends on one question:

curse fury meteor cage frags = ded or no ded?

I don´t think a perfected staff will have too much influence on choosing skillsetup. Your kill combo does not allow for pulse in the first place (one of the reasons why i think bars are too cluttered - no point in having 5/6 direct dmg skills in a 4s timed rotation with 1s gcd - you can´t fit them all in anyway).

On top of that perfected/dsa staves get competition by frontbar only dmg sets aswell + a new "anytime" ability from psijic skillline. Spinner, Elegance, BSW as frontbar only sets are somewhat tempting.
Especially as there is still no monster set that´s absolutely desireable on magsorc (contrary to skoria/bs/trollking/veli on other classes). 5 spinner 5 lich 1 domi 3 willpower is a lot of stats on the other hand - and sorc does well with stats only.

Biro123 · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Improved cage will aid to burst aswell as it will always deliver it´s dmg.

I´m personally more concerned with cluttered bars.

This is probably the reason why most people won’t run it. Unless you have a perfected staff I can’t see any reason why you’d run rune cage over reach tbf, as you’d have to most likely drop frags, mines or one shield none of which I’m really comfortable without...

All depends on one question:

curse fury meteor cage frags = ded or no ded?

I don´t think a perfected staff will have too much influence on choosing skillsetup. Your kill combo does not allow for pulse in the first place (one of the reasons why i think bars are too cluttered - no point in having 5/6 direct dmg skills in a 4s timed rotation with 1s gcd - you can´t fit them all in anyway).

On top of that perfected/dsa staves get competition by frontbar only dmg sets aswell + a new "anytime" ability from psijic skillline. Spinner, Elegance, BSW as frontbar only sets are somewhat tempting.
Especially as there is still no monster set that´s absolutely desireable on magsorc (contrary to skoria/bs/trollking/veli on other classes). 5 spinner 5 lich 1 domi 3 willpower is a lot of stats on the other hand - and sorc does well with stats only.

That right there is DW-sorc thinking!

Lord-Otto · April 2018

The question is if you wanna use Dawnbreaker as your ult.

Meteor+Cage is our strongest burst combo, especially after the improvements. It's expensive, however, but ranged.
If you use Dawnbreaker, you already have a stun in that combo, and you have that combo more often. But it deals less damage and is close-ranged.

Since Meteor is down for so long, I would heavily recommend the additional burst from Master Reach alongside Cage. Cage alone just isn't enough damage.
If you're running Dawnbreaker, I think you can forego Cage and run Asylum staff. Streak every seven seconds, though, important!

Biro, for you it's easy. The change to Cage will help DW sorcs neatly.
C=

Beardimus · April 2018

^ i dunno @Lord-Otto I think this patch is the real death of DW MagSorc. Been nerfed patch after patch and this feels the end

Can hope with rune Cage but even now our burst needs ultimate, and Meteor losing damage effects that. If the cage damge is enough to make up for burst ultimate free then great but i cant see the tool tip giving anyone difficulty.

And Cage is so damn clunky, it's a horrible skill to use. Streak is beautiful as a CC but needs more range and a less clunky ending so you can turn

Biro123 · April 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

The question is if you wanna use Dawnbreaker as your ult.

Meteor+Cage is our strongest burst combo, especially after the improvements. It's expensive, however, but ranged.
If you use Dawnbreaker, you already have a stun in that combo, and you have that combo more often. But it deals less damage and is close-ranged.

Since Meteor is down for so long, I would heavily recommend the additional burst from Master Reach alongside Cage. Cage alone just isn't enough damage.
If you're running Dawnbreaker, I think you can forego Cage and run Asylum staff. Streak every seven seconds, though, important!

Biro, for you it's easy. The change to Cage will help DW sorcs neatly.
C=

The cage change WILL help, yes - but in all honesty, I can't see DW being viable anymore... Well, that's not true - it will be, but it will now be inferior to staff in all cases, I think.

I mean, if I took a current max-magicka DW build - I could keep it exactly the same post-patch and benefit from a little extra runecage damage.

OR I could swap the weapons for a flame staff, *probably* use the same abilities (may have to fit in a staff ability somewhere for the dmg bonus) - yes, spell-damage will be smaller. However, Max Magicka builds will probably benefit much more from the light-attack damage changes. May even be possible to slot a mag-recov glyph or something to squeeze in another spell-dmg jewel enchant or something...
As always, we'll have to see, but I do suspect that the old, no-spammable, DW playstyle would still exist - but it will involve woven staff attacks..

pzschrek · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

Especially as there is still no monster set that´s absolutely desireable on magsorc (contrary to skoria/bs/trollking/veli on other classes). 5 spinner 5 lich 1 domi 3 willpower is a lot of stats on the other hand - and sorc does well with stats only.

This puts into words a lot of what I've though about sorc lately. Even when I didn't run master I'd rather have 2k mag 1k stam than any of the monster sets. This only increases that stat pool.

Though some disagree, my opinion that you have to run master staff since they stole the frag stun has only increased with time. I went back to pulse once and was left thinking "how did I ever play this way"

pzschrek · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

Especially as there is still no monster set that´s absolutely desireable on magsorc (contrary to skoria/bs/trollking/veli on other classes). 5 spinner 5 lich 1 domi 3 willpower is a lot of stats on the other hand - and sorc does well with stats only.

This puts into words a lot of what I've though about sorc lately. Even when I didn't run master I'd rather have 2k mag 1k stam than any of the monster sets. This only increases that stat pool.

Though some disagree, my opinion that you have to run master staff since they stole the frag stun has only increased with time. I went back to pulse once and was left thinking "how did I ever play this way"

Maulkin · April 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Improved cage will aid to burst aswell as it will always deliver it´s dmg.

I´m personally more concerned with cluttered bars.

This is probably the reason why most people won’t run it. Unless you have a perfected staff I can’t see any reason why you’d run rune cage over reach tbf, as you’d have to most likely drop frags, mines or one shield none of which I’m really comfortable without...

All depends on one question:

curse fury meteor cage frags = ded or no ded?

I don´t think a perfected staff will have too much influence on choosing skillsetup. Your kill combo does not allow for pulse in the first place (one of the reasons why i think bars are too cluttered - no point in having 5/6 direct dmg skills in a 4s timed rotation with 1s gcd - you can´t fit them all in anyway).

On top of that perfected/dsa staves get competition by frontbar only dmg sets aswell + a new "anytime" ability from psijic skillline. Spinner, Elegance, BSW as frontbar only sets are somewhat tempting.
Especially as there is still no monster set that´s absolutely desireable on magsorc (contrary to skoria/bs/trollking/veli on other classes). 5 spinner 5 lich 1 domi 3 willpower is a lot of stats on the other hand - and sorc does well with stats only.

That right there is DW-sorc thinking!

Is it? How so? Just light attack weaving will add more total damage to that combo than the DW spell damage does. And that's currently. Without factoring in poisons/enchants/status effects etc. Once you factor in the buff to light attacks next patch and one more set item from staves then...

You will catch people out with that combo as DW Sorc, for sure, but it requires 180 cost ultimate and I'm not sure what you'll do outside of it. What if your target is CC immune and Cage can't be applied (ergo, no Cage damage in the combo)? And when you fight against a destro MagSorc you will be put under so much constant pressure from light weaves, spammables, enchants/poisons... all that stuff the DW Sorc does not have access to, that I'd be surprised if you have time to pull off the combo in the first place.

I don't understand you guys. DW Sorc has been dead for while. The incoming changes are not even the final nail in the coffin, cause that's been hammered a while ago. The changes...they are more like pissing on its grave. Just, let go.

NordSwordnBoard · April 2018

Haha you can pry my lich swords from my cold, dead hands.

Seriously though, I'm already considering other options if I don't like dw after the update.

Biro123 · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, we're bound to the Master staff. Even with an improved Rune Cage, Master CC will always increase your burst if you don't have an ultimate.
There have been very competent players I could only kill because I finally managed to hit with that full burst after a drawn-out fight. Even Rune Cage + Meteor wasn't enough and I needed every single bit of burst outside of ultimate.
I would definitely plan builds with Master's in mind.

Improved cage will aid to burst aswell as it will always deliver it´s dmg.

I´m personally more concerned with cluttered bars.

This is probably the reason why most people won’t run it. Unless you have a perfected staff I can’t see any reason why you’d run rune cage over reach tbf, as you’d have to most likely drop frags, mines or one shield none of which I’m really comfortable without...

All depends on one question:

curse fury meteor cage frags = ded or no ded?

I don´t think a perfected staff will have too much influence on choosing skillsetup. Your kill combo does not allow for pulse in the first place (one of the reasons why i think bars are too cluttered - no point in having 5/6 direct dmg skills in a 4s timed rotation with 1s gcd - you can´t fit them all in anyway).

On top of that perfected/dsa staves get competition by frontbar only dmg sets aswell + a new "anytime" ability from psijic skillline. Spinner, Elegance, BSW as frontbar only sets are somewhat tempting.
Especially as there is still no monster set that´s absolutely desireable on magsorc (contrary to skoria/bs/trollking/veli on other classes). 5 spinner 5 lich 1 domi 3 willpower is a lot of stats on the other hand - and sorc does well with stats only.

That right there is DW-sorc thinking!

Is it? How so? Just light attack weaving will add more total damage to that combo than the DW spell damage does. And that's currently. Without factoring in poisons/enchants/status effects etc. Once you factor in the buff to light attacks next patch and one more set item from staves then...

You will catch people out with that combo as DW Sorc, for sure, but it requires 180 cost ultimate and I'm not sure what you'll do outside of it. What if your target is CC immune and Cage can't be applied (ergo, no Cage damage in the combo)? And when you fight against a destro MagSorc you will be put under so much constant pressure from light weaves, spammables, enchants/poisons... all that stuff the DW Sorc does not have access to, that I'd be surprised if you have time to pull off the combo in the first place.

I don't understand you guys. DW Sorc has been dead for while. The incoming changes are not even the final nail in the coffin, cause that's been hammered a while ago. The changes...they are more like pissing on its grave. Just, let go.

If course its DW thinking.. With a DW setup, you have to consider whether your burst is enough to kill (or enough to make it impossible to heal from before the next one) precisely because you have no 'filler' damage.

Despite your dislike, it isn't all about playing meta all the time. For me its about finding a playstyle I like and coming up with a meta for that playstyle. I don't want to play like every single other sorc out there.

fwiw, the DW shield size makes it very easy to pull off the full dmg combo against a single opponent. Much more difficult vs multiple though. But it never was a 1vX playstyle since all my DW builds have had to sacrifice mobility for the barspace.

And yes, I still get plenty of kills without the ulti - and even without runecage too.

And no, I do not have a masters staff - nor any of the endgame PVE weapons, and refuse on principle to have to farm them for a PVP build. My builds/playstyle also takes that into account.