DK defense for openworld. Make Wings Great Again.

ak_pvp · April 2018

DKs have *** defense.

What, you may think, am I on about. But it is true. DK as a class have the worst class defense. Wings post snip snip. But what about block, and innate tankiness? You may also ask. Well, DK gets 3000 spell resistance, and 5% mitigation... whilst blocking. Hardly enough to compare with something like cloak, or shimmering. Both warden and templar have equal or higher innate tankiness than a DK. Whilst also having a class defense worth slotting. (Even if it is only purge. RIP)

Blocking itself has been quite heavily nerfed, where it could have been a really strong primary defense in the past, has fallen quite hard. It is impossible to maintain under heavy pressure, needing the equivalent of 3k non base recovery regen to maintain. At lowest cost, I mean all sturdy, block glyphs, etc. Before including stam usage in abilities, break frees, rolls, etc. It is however still OK in a 1v1, where it takes about 1.2k average to maintain. Which is doable, but may require some heavies. Honestly, block sucks, slow, expensive, highly sacrificial etc. Its like the opposite of meta. Yes. A MagDK can run resto+light. (A stamDK is pretty much forced into heavy) But they have nothing towards it, no defenses that synergises with it. So if you want to go resto, why choose a DK over any other class. Good healing? Well templars/wardens have it too, and then something else to work with it.

Lets take the DK nerfs, and translate them to NB language just so you see how the class fares:

Imagine nerfing cloak to the level of wings. Only 4 cloaked hits, and only certain abilities can be cloaked. Would be harsh no, but its OK for a DK? Then force them into heavy/block, or just rolling/shields with no other worthwhile defense. This indirectly results nerfing their offense, by having to build tanky. (DK can get massive offense, I know personally, 15k+ leaps, 9k+ whips) But DK has better lockdown? OK, give them a root and a little better healing. (Again, DK self healing is pretty damn great, but the crit vigors+rally of a ganker do quite well in that regard too) Would you think that is as balanced as before?

Anyhow, block and a neuter defense now is not good enough to base the entire class around. And is probably the worst handicap to stopping DK at their full potential. So what better to untie Dragonknight from block, than good old sexy animated dragon wings.

Base morph: Lasts 4s. Now reflects 3 projectiles. However the limit is per person. See that. I nerfed a defense 1v1, so its not OP. But made it better for openworld. See that, is known as balancing. Not just buffing/nerfing to all hell. It lasts less, and it reflects less per person, but it cannot be force broken in literally 1s, so it actually can reflect things from people. ALSO: If someone says, well, that might be OP, its a magicka advantage. It can be forced by 3x light attacks. Which is 1.8s iirc. Also look to shimmering/cloak again. Honestly, I will even take the base morph being a deflect (Like absorb) instead of a reflect.

Plate: This one would be the snare immunity that DK needs. Removal is useless. No one will swap mist, or even now FM, since 2h is 2x sets. Have a DK dot on you? Snared again. Have an AoE? Snared again. Hit by something? Snared. Breath? Snared. This way, a DK can actually distance themselves from mist/FM, so a StamDK can use rally for a burst heal, and a MagDK can possibly drop vamp. If the base is turned into a deflect, this will be too.

Fire scale: This one would function as normal, but can also have some changes like minor vulnerability to those hit by the projectiles. If base is turned into a deflect this can maintain the reflect function. Therefor offering an interesting choice between damage/snare immunity.

These changes will allow a dragonknight to branch out of the usual tanky S/B they are forced into for defense, and open up usage of other weapons and armour types to a good level.

Checkmath · April 2018

how about fire scales set hit enemies offbalanace? ^^
maybe not, since offbalance already synegizes very well with dks.
but the reflect changes would be very welcomed to that unmobile class forced into the blocking meta (which doesnt work anymore naturally)

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

TBH. DK speaks to me as more of slower moving War of Attrition type Playstyle. Not High Mobility/Damage outside of Ultimates.

Right now I think the largest issue with DK is that they lack a way to make enemies "stick" to them in a more passive manner, given the CC immunity that chains has to deal with.

So Personally I'd just remove the persistent snare effect of Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud), and instead make the ability a player centered AoE, similar to that of Eye of the Storm. (This would still be in addition to the Heal Change). You keep enemies closer to you, and keep yourself healed up. You become a walking inferno.

But that's just my opinion, I don't play DK all that much.

ak_pvp · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

how about fire scales set hit enemies offbalanace? ^^
maybe not, since offbalance already synegizes very well with dks.
but the reflect changes would be very welcomed to that unmobile class forced into the blocking meta (which doesnt work anymore naturally)

That is a pretty good idea. DFS just needs something to make it worth using offensively, even if my ideas go through. Maybe even something as small as inflicting burning on those who hit you with projectiles. Because then it'd synergize well with the new passive, skipping the RNG aspect. And offer small extra pressure.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

TBH. DK speaks to me as more of slower moving War of Attrition type Playstyle. Not High Mobility/Damage outside of Ultimates.

Right now I think the largest issue with DK is that they lack a way to make enemies "stick" to them in a more passive manner, given the CC immunity that chains has to deal with.

So Personally I'd just remove the persistent snare effect of Cinder Storm (Ash Cloud), and instead make the ability a player centered AoE, similar to that of Eye of the Storm. (This would still be in addition to the Heal Change). You keep enemies closer to you, and keep yourself healed up. You become a walking inferno.

But that's just my opinion, I don't play DK all that much.

I think DK should be slow/steady too, it matches their heavy ground knight theme. But I don't think DK should be constantly 70%+ snared with only misting to save them. Block snares enough. The DK damage/survivability is fine IMO. Other classes should have something similar.

The only thing I would change damage wise on a MagDK is the power whip being dodgable, it was the defacto execute and finisher, it took locking down, a set up, then the power whip to hit, so had 2 GCDs, and things like range, FM, CC immunity to avoid it. The new changes reward complacency, and punish the DK for locking down. A StamDK needs a lot more though.

The latter suggestion is basically old inferno, and we all want that back. But wrobel has shut that down personally. Ash cloud is a stationary ability like LL, blazing spear etc. So IMO should stay that way. DK solo healing is fine. They have a player "HoT"+burst heal and an offensive hot+burst heal. Any more and people cry OP.

Chains is one thing that annoys me. The gapcloser shouldn't exist. Its just not DK and it looks goofy. Its just a half assed way to give mobility. But the pull morph should be better in PvP. It should root/stun for 1s when cast, then pull, and offer no immunity if not broken. If broken it wouldn't pull, and it would give immunity. It'd allow some ranged lockdown and ability to get someone close.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

I think DK should be slow/steady too, it matches their heavy ground knight theme. But I don't think DK should be constantly 70%+ snared with only misting to save them. Block snares enough. The DK damage/survivability is fine IMO. Other classes should have something similar.

The only thing I would change damage wise on a MagDK is the power whip being dodgable, it was the defacto execute and finisher, it took locking down, a set up, then the power whip to hit, so had 2 GCDs, and things like range, FM, CC immunity to avoid it. The new changes reward complacency, and punish the DK for locking down. A StamDK needs a lot more though.

The latter suggestion is basically old inferno, and we all want that back. But wrobel has shut that down personally. Ash cloud is a stationary ability like LL, blazing spear etc. So IMO should stay that way. DK solo healing is fine. They have a player "HoT"+burst heal and an offensive hot+burst heal. Any more and people cry OP.

Chains is one thing that annoys me. The gapcloser shouldn't exist. Its just not DK and it looks goofy. Its just a half assed way to give mobility. But the pull morph should be better in PvP. It should root/stun for 1s when cast, then pull, and offer no immunity if not broken. If broken it wouldn't pull, and it would give immunity. It'd allow some ranged lockdown and ability to get someone close.

Wait, Inferno used to work like that? Why'd they change it? It'd essentially be the token skill of the DK. Whereas NB Cloak has only a small subset of counters, Inferno would work much the same way. You either gotta make use of Streak proper, Shadow Image, Immov pot, roll-dodge, or other stuns + skill avoidance. to get away. Templar should generally be able to setup their "house" while in the DK inferno, meaning the DK themselves will have to back away (knock them out of it) if they want a chance to kill the templar, otherwise leading to a stalemate. Warden would probably be screwed, but I barely know the kit so can't say for certain.

I'm pretty sure roots/stuns don't offer immunity if not broken even now. It's just that roll-dodge break leading to the immunity is so prevalent. But a chains root on hit doesn't sound that bad to play against, and would likely be a good skill change.

NBrookus · April 2018

The buffs you describe for wings sound like they would specifically target DK defense weaknesses, and help DKs get away from S&B. I don't like the off balance suggestion on wings, because setting a target off balance out of your melee range wouldn't be very helpful.

I'd like to see snare immunity on wings (I'd be willing to trade the expedition on chains), revert fossilize to it's old range, and allow whips to be dodged but not power lash. Make it hard to set up the kill combo and reward enemies for avoiding it, but leave DKs with one reliable not-ultimate hard hitting skill.

I'd disagree that templars are in innately tankier right now. Templars have few skills that are both offensive and defensive, so you have to switch modes. Once you are on defense and under pressure it's very hard to get back to full offense. DKs are more rewarded for staying on the offense with embers, whip, breath.

And for all the QQ about templars healing, good lord Akatosh, stamwardens are SO much worse than templars ever were when they turtle up.

Vaoh · April 2018

I recall Alcast or one of the playtesters mentioning that Wrobel will be “monitoring” how the snare removal performs, and consider an immunity.

I totally disagree on immunity though for DKs (or any class for that matter) because it would be a bandaid fix. There is an underlying issue when Mag builds are slotting a 2H for Forward Momentum...... what I mean is, Snares need to change in a very meaningful way. Snare Immunity should absolutely not be the vital survival tool for all builds it currently is.

Your change to Reflective Scales are perfect imo. Lessen projectile count, but make it *per target*. Balance. Also I’d ask for a slight increase to Searing Strike’s range.

Those DK changes and a nerf to snares as a whole -> finally balanced. Probably on the same level of NBs who are getting that insane Shadow Image buff next patch. Now Sorcs/Wardens really need to get on that level and Templars helped too.

..... that is if ZOS balances through buffs for the first time, instead of nerfs.

ak_pvp · April 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

The buffs you describe for wings sound like they would specifically target DK defense weaknesses, and help DKs get away from S&B. I don't like the off balance suggestion on wings, because setting a target off balance out of your melee range wouldn't be very helpful.

I'd like to see snare immunity on wings (I'd be willing to trade the expedition on chains), revert fossilize to it's old range, and allow whips to be dodged but not power lash. Make it hard to set up the kill combo and reward enemies for avoiding it, but leave DKs with one reliable not-ultimate hard hitting skill.

I'd disagree that templars are in innately tankier right now. Templars have few skills that are both offensive and defensive, so you have to switch modes. Once you are on defense and under pressure it's very hard to get back to full offense. DKs are more rewarded for staying on the offense with embers, whip, breath.

And for all the QQ about templars healing, good lord Akatosh, stamwardens are SO much worse than templars ever were when they turtle up.

Its not that templars are more tankier in playstyle, jabbing and beaming drops block, and its less sustainable for a templar. But mitigation wise, for a full tank templar they outmitigate a DK. 5% is less than minor protection. And templar has passives such as: Spear wall, and balanced warrior. Then with purge and heals a tanky templar becomes as tanky as a tanky DK. Just with less damage. A warden can do that with high healing, high damage, and high mitigation and sustain it better.

Vaoh wrote: »

I recall Alcast or one of the playtesters mentioning that Wrobel will be “monitoring” how the snare removal performs, and consider an immunity.

I totally disagree on immunity though for DKs (or any class for that matter) because it would be a bandaid fix. There is an underlying issue when Mag builds are slotting a 2H for Forward Momentum...... what I mean is, Snares need to change in a very meaningful way. Snare Immunity should absolutely not be the vital survival tool for all builds it currently is.

Your change to Reflective Scales are perfect imo. Lessen projectile count, but make it *per target*. Balance. Also I’d ask for a slight increase to Searing Strike’s range.

Those DK changes and a nerf to snares as a whole -> finally balanced. Probably on the same level of NBs who are getting that insane Shadow Image buff next patch. Now Sorcs/Wardens really need to get on that level and Templars helped too.

..... that is if ZOS balances through buffs for the first time, instead of nerfs.

I agree with your point on the the potency of snares being a problem. But would still keep snare removal on a DK/templar as part of the total fix.

Snares should directly be an subtractive alternative to expedition. Maj 30% Min 10%. Things like eruption can have both, but nothing above 40%.

That way, a few speedy classes, i.e. sorcerer/NB/warden can outpace snares. Wheas the slower, yet steadier DK/templar can remove the snare. (Purge for templars, but it needs a heavy buff, i'd say make it percentage of effects, buff if you have X+ effects on you, a nerf if you have X- effects) but not have much mobility. No one could have both on the same class skills. However you could use out of class things to get what your class doesn't have like speed pots or FM snare removal.

I'd then make sorcerer the most mobile, but with changes to streak/BoL, boundless, mines etc. I'd tone down NBs mitigation in cloak, but maintain their burst, and buff their actual invisibility part by remove breaking on pot/mark, but buff counters effective for the user. *** knows what to do with warden.

Maybe then we can have some usable individual strengths.

Vaoh · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The buffs you describe for wings sound like they would specifically target DK defense weaknesses, and help DKs get away from S&B. I don't like the off balance suggestion on wings, because setting a target off balance out of your melee range wouldn't be very helpful.

I'd like to see snare immunity on wings (I'd be willing to trade the expedition on chains), revert fossilize to it's old range, and allow whips to be dodged but not power lash. Make it hard to set up the kill combo and reward enemies for avoiding it, but leave DKs with one reliable not-ultimate hard hitting skill.

I'd disagree that templars are in innately tankier right now. Templars have few skills that are both offensive and defensive, so you have to switch modes. Once you are on defense and under pressure it's very hard to get back to full offense. DKs are more rewarded for staying on the offense with embers, whip, breath.

And for all the QQ about templars healing, good lord Akatosh, stamwardens are SO much worse than templars ever were when they turtle up.

Its not that templars are more tankier in playstyle, jabbing and beaming drops block, and its less sustainable for a templar. But mitigation wise, for a full tank templar they outmitigate a DK. 5% is less than minor protection. And templar has passives such as: Spear wall, and balanced warrior. Then with purge and heals a tanky templar becomes as tanky as a tanky DK. Just with less damage. A warden can do that with high healing, high damage, and high mitigation and sustain it better.

Vaoh wrote: »

I recall Alcast or one of the playtesters mentioning that Wrobel will be “monitoring” how the snare removal performs, and consider an immunity.

I totally disagree on immunity though for DKs (or any class for that matter) because it would be a bandaid fix. There is an underlying issue when Mag builds are slotting a 2H for Forward Momentum...... what I mean is, Snares need to change in a very meaningful way. Snare Immunity should absolutely not be the vital survival tool for all builds it currently is.

Your change to Reflective Scales are perfect imo. Lessen projectile count, but make it *per target*. Balance. Also I’d ask for a slight increase to Searing Strike’s range.

Those DK changes and a nerf to snares as a whole -> finally balanced. Probably on the same level of NBs who are getting that insane Shadow Image buff next patch. Now Sorcs/Wardens really need to get on that level and Templars helped too.

..... that is if ZOS balances through buffs for the first time, instead of nerfs.

I agree with your point on the the potency of snares being a problem. But would still keep snare removal on a DK/templar as part of the total fix.

Snares should directly be an subtractive alternative to expedition. Maj 30% Min 10%. Things like eruption can have both, but nothing above 40%.

That way, a few speedy classes, i.e. sorcerer/NB/warden can outpace snares. Wheas the slower, yet steadier DK/templar can remove the snare. (Purge for templars, but it needs a heavy buff, i'd say make it percentage of effects, buff if you have X+ effects on you, a nerf if you have X- effects) but not have much mobility. No one could have both on the same class skills. However you could use out of class things to get what your class doesn't have like speed pots or FM snare removal.

I'd then make sorcerer the most mobile, but with changes to streak/BoL, boundless, mines etc. I'd tone down NBs mitigation in cloak, but maintain their burst, and buff their actual invisibility part by remove breaking on pot/mark, but buff counters effective for the user. *** knows what to do with warden.

Maybe then we can have some usable individual strengths.

Mobile Sorc.... like Konkle originally envisioned them. A class with high mobility, minor shields, and the ability to HEAL THEMSELVES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE SO STACKING SHIELDS WASN’T THEIR ONLY SOURCE OF SURVIVAL. If only that was still a thing

Meanwhile my DW/Resto Mag Sorc officially dies in Summerset. 2 full years of huge nerfs and now my favorite playstyle is finally being put out of its misery. Don’t get me wrong, I like that two-handed Weapons count as 2 sets pieces now - it’s just sad to see the playstyle slowly (and now completely) erased.

As for DK, if snares were nerfed like they should be, you wouldn’t have to worry about them so much. Snare immunity should never be necessary. DK is also doing much better than DK mains like to think these days due to the many buffs have happened in the passed year both directly and indirectly. You should be more optimistic about them even if they leave Reflective Scales as is.

kadar · April 2018

magine nerfing cloak to the level of wings. Only 4 cloaked hits, and only certain abilities can be cloaked. Would be harsh no, but its OK for a DK? Then force them into heavy/block, or just rolling/shields with no other worthwhile defense.

This is already more-or-less the case: Only 0-2.9 seconds, and only certain abilities can be cloaked. Add in: can also remove the ability to cloak. Not a good comparison if you're trying to highlight how weak wings are.

I would also add accessibility to major mending through a class shield to the top of this list of things that make DKs tanky. That said, those ability changes sound like great ideas. Bump.

NBrookus · April 2018

I agree a major overhaul and nerf to snares would be the better course of action. But Zeni just loves to put a snare on every ability.

ak_pvp · April 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

magine nerfing cloak to the level of wings. Only 4 cloaked hits, and only certain abilities can be cloaked. Would be harsh no, but its OK for a DK? Then force them into heavy/block, or just rolling/shields with no other worthwhile defense.

This is already more-or-less the case: Only 0-2.9 seconds, and only certain abilities can be cloaked. Add in: can also remove the ability to cloak. Not a good comparison if you're trying to highlight how weak wings are.

I would also add accessibility to major mending through a class shield to the top of this list of things that make DKs tanky. That said, those ability changes sound like great ideas. Bump.

Cloak has only AoEs and reveals that can go through them, and meteor or curse if on prior, when revealed. Wings can only get projectiles, and barely them and no cap on abilities it can cloak. Cloak outdoes absolutely every defense in pure mitigation.

It does have its problems, mainly due to when it is countered, by pots/mark. Its useless and at the mercy of zergs.

Subversus · April 2018

I do agree that DKs need a little immunity after they purge the roots with wings. 2-3 seconds should suffice.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

I do agree that DKs need a little immunity after they purge the roots with wings. 2-3 seconds should suffice.

Yeah, can you imagine how quickly you'll burn through your magic resources if you have to flap your wings every time a snare gets reapplied to you in PVP? Whew. You'd just stand there, flapping your wings in combat.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The buffs you describe for wings sound like they would specifically target DK defense weaknesses, and help DKs get away from S&B. I don't like the off balance suggestion on wings, because setting a target off balance out of your melee range wouldn't be very helpful.

I'd like to see snare immunity on wings (I'd be willing to trade the expedition on chains), revert fossilize to it's old range, and allow whips to be dodged but not power lash. Make it hard to set up the kill combo and reward enemies for avoiding it, but leave DKs with one reliable not-ultimate hard hitting skill.

I'd disagree that templars are in innately tankier right now. Templars have few skills that are both offensive and defensive, so you have to switch modes. Once you are on defense and under pressure it's very hard to get back to full offense. DKs are more rewarded for staying on the offense with embers, whip, breath.

And for all the QQ about templars healing, good lord Akatosh, stamwardens are SO much worse than templars ever were when they turtle up.

Its not that templars are more tankier in playstyle, jabbing and beaming drops block, and its less sustainable for a templar. But mitigation wise, for a full tank templar they outmitigate a DK. 5% is less than minor protection. And templar has passives such as: Spear wall, and balanced warrior. Then with purge and heals a tanky templar becomes as tanky as a tanky DK. Just with less damage. A warden can do that with high healing, high damage, and high mitigation and sustain it better.

Vaoh wrote: »

I recall Alcast or one of the playtesters mentioning that Wrobel will be “monitoring” how the snare removal performs, and consider an immunity.

I totally disagree on immunity though for DKs (or any class for that matter) because it would be a bandaid fix. There is an underlying issue when Mag builds are slotting a 2H for Forward Momentum...... what I mean is, Snares need to change in a very meaningful way. Snare Immunity should absolutely not be the vital survival tool for all builds it currently is.

Your change to Reflective Scales are perfect imo. Lessen projectile count, but make it *per target*. Balance. Also I’d ask for a slight increase to Searing Strike’s range.

Those DK changes and a nerf to snares as a whole -> finally balanced. Probably on the same level of NBs who are getting that insane Shadow Image buff next patch. Now Sorcs/Wardens really need to get on that level and Templars helped too.

..... that is if ZOS balances through buffs for the first time, instead of nerfs.

I agree with your point on the the potency of snares being a problem. But would still keep snare removal on a DK/templar as part of the total fix.

Snares should directly be an subtractive alternative to expedition. Maj 30% Min 10%. Things like eruption can have both, but nothing above 40%.

That way, a few speedy classes, i.e. sorcerer/NB/warden can outpace snares. Wheas the slower, yet steadier DK/templar can remove the snare. (Purge for templars, but it needs a heavy buff, i'd say make it percentage of effects, buff if you have X+ effects on you, a nerf if you have X- effects) but not have much mobility. No one could have both on the same class skills. However you could use out of class things to get what your class doesn't have like speed pots or FM snare removal.

I'd then make sorcerer the most mobile, but with changes to streak/BoL, boundless, mines etc. I'd tone down NBs mitigation in cloak, but maintain their burst, and buff their actual invisibility part by remove breaking on pot/mark, but buff counters effective for the user. *** knows what to do with warden.

Maybe then we can have some usable individual strengths.

As for DK, if snares were nerfed like they should be, you wouldn’t have to worry about them so much. Snare immunity should never be necessary. DK is also doing much better than DK mains like to think these days due to the many buffs have happened in the passed year both directly and indirectly. You should be more optimistic about them even if they leave Reflective Scales as is.

I think you are talking about specificly magDks. I don't remember a single direct or indirect buff to my stamDk since morrowind was a thing.
Agree on snares though. Adding immunity to everything isn't the way to go. Fixing snares should be a priority.

Checkmath · April 2018

I am just wondering, why there isnt a turtle skill like the following in tge tenplars or dks toolkit: this skills grants you immunity to cc‘s for some seconds, also major prorection. But to make it up, your movement speed is cut in half.
I havent seen such a skill in eso, but everytime i hear somebody saying „stand your ground“ or „protecting the house“ class something like above described comes into my mind.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

I am just wondering, why there isnt a turtle skill like the following in tge tenplars or dks toolkit: this skills grants you immunity to cc‘s for some seconds, also major prorection. But to make it up, your movement speed is cut in half.
I havent seen such a skill in eso, but everytime i hear somebody saying „stand your ground“ or „protecting the house“ class something like above described comes into my mind.

This is what I don't get. Wroebel wants DKs/Templars stay put and be tanky... yet we keep getting slapped with Major/Minor Defile, snares, and they keep cutting healing skills down.

ZOS needs to figure out this whole "tanking in PVP" thing... because you can't draw aggro and you get no benefit other than it taking slightly longer to kill you.

Edit: I just checked my Nightblade's Major Defile... with CP involved my Incapacitating Strike does 45% healing reduction. That's from one skill alone... no Minor Defile involved.

Perhaps they need to make heavy armor have some sort of resistance against Defile.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Savos_Saren

Technically Heavy Armor does by the Increased Healing Received bonus.

And I think the general issue with tanking and staying put is that gapclosers are a thing. Not to mention on the Sword and Board skill line. You can be immobile, but also catch up to any enemy just by spamming a skill. IMO the way gapclosers are present in this game is a bit poorly implemented. They should only be found in class skills, and present on classes whose Identity warrant them. Pulling towards you is fine, as CC immunity is a thing, but classless gapclosers can be spammed all day and night. Making even the least mobile class extremely mobile.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

I am just wondering, why there isnt a turtle skill like the following in tge tenplars or dks toolkit: this skills grants you immunity to cc‘s for some seconds, also major prorection. But to make it up, your movement speed is cut in half.
I havent seen such a skill in eso, but everytime i hear somebody saying „stand your ground“ or „protecting the house“ class something like above described comes into my mind.

I think the reason is that such a skill would suck the fun out of battlegrounds.

The blocking itself is the ultimate ''turtling up'' move in this game, and obviously Dks are the ninja turtles

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Savos_Saren

Technically Heavy Armor does by the Increased Healing Received bonus.

And I think the general issue with tanking and staying put is that gapclosers are a thing. Not to mention on the Sword and Board skill line. You can be immobile, but also catch up to any enemy just by spamming a skill. IMO the way gapclosers are present in this game is a bit poorly implemented. They should only be found in class skills, and present on classes whose Identity warrant them. Pulling towards you is fine, as CC immunity is a thing, but classless gapclosers can be spammed all day and night. Making even the least mobile class extremely mobile.

See, I disagree with you here. I think that if all classes are supposed to have a Tank, DPS, and Healer role- then all classes need to have an ability to be mobile. As a tank- it would behoove you to stay in place and let the enemies come to you... so you wouldn't spam a gap closer. But for those DKs who want to be DDs, they should have the option to be mobile.

ZOS keeps saying that they want to give people the option to do one of the three roles in each class.

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER · April 2018

Wings are strong, already shuts down every ranged build.

Checkmath · April 2018

sadly not every ranged build....

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Savos_Saren

Right, each class should be able to do each role. That does not mean that each class should approach each role in the same manner.

Why do DK DDs need to be mobile?

Why must they emulate Sorc and NB and Templar? Can they not be a DD that focuses on bringing the target to them, then utilizing oppressive AoE snares/DoTs to punish any player/enemy that is foolish enough to try and fight them 1v1 and not be built for sustain or escape?

Not saying it shouldn't be an option to be mobile, but generally the option should have a cost. Such as making Take flight a more mobility based ultimate.

A skill like the SnB Shield Charge is basically mobility and a stun at no cost. And primarily a reason as to why the DK gets/got the nerf hammer so much.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

@Avran_Sylt

It would be more effective if our abilities could kill them fast enough before they could break free, cloak, bolt escape, etc out of our range. Sadly, our firey DoTs aren't that powerful and our lashes are dodgable. The enemy can escape our "house" and then burn us from afar.

If ZoS really wants us to be a fearsome foe (whom you wouldn't want to enter our house) then they need to give us tools to ensure those who do come near us... never leave. MDKs would need a short-ranged execute.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Savos_Saren

But that's the thing. If you want to play a small TTK class, play a Nightblade or a Sorc.

And for DKs? A house isn't a concern. You ARE the house. A walking *** fortress that traps/saps/and withers opponents near you. You go where you want, and it'll take a few opponents to take you down. Out sustaining a single Ranger to the point of a stalemate.

But right now, that aint a thing, since you don't really have any ability that makes the enemy stick to you if they're trying to get up in your face and don't have a plan of escape. I'm fairly certain this is a result of classless based gapclosers. And the fact that they would make this walking tank playstyle absolutely broken.

That old inferno with a 70% snare? Given the DK's Sustain via Ultimates, how cancerous do you think a gapclosing spamming DK would be that also causes any enemy near them to have a 70% reduced movespeed? There is literally no counterplay to that. Immov pots do nothing against the gapclosers. And when the effect wears off, you're snared and slower than the DK again. They get to stick to you regardless of your attempts to escape, all the while applying fire and forget based DoTs that drain your resources.

While it is possible to make it so that the DK starts to focus more on single target Direct Damage abilities, I find that to be rehashing the content found in other classes. And so generally, the DK identity is being ham-stringed by the mobility options available to all classes, and trying to make it a more enjoyable playstyle simply causes it to be just like another class, with different visuals.

Dyride · April 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

I recall Alcast or one of the playtesters mentioning that Wrobel will be “monitoring” how the snare removal performs, and consider an immunity.

I totally disagree on immunity though for DKs (or any class for that matter) because it would be a bandaid fix. There is an underlying issue when Mag builds are slotting a 2H for Forward Momentum...... what I mean is, Snares need to change in a very meaningful way. Snare Immunity should absolutely not be the vital survival tool for all builds it currently is.

Your change to Reflective Scales are perfect imo. Lessen projectile count, but make it *per target*. Balance. Also I’d ask for a slight increase to Searing Strike’s range.

Those DK changes and a nerf to snares as a whole -> finally balanced. Probably on the same level of NBs who are getting that insane Shadow Image buff next patch. Now Sorcs/Wardens really need to get on that level and Templars helped too.

..... that is if ZOS balances through buffs for the first time, instead of nerfs.

I hope the snare purge for Reflective Plate is useful and not useless. I could see maybe a 1-2 sec immunity but nothing longer.

I do agree that having Forward Momentum on magicka builds should be telling ZOS something. Really we need to move to a Major/Minor Snare system, because Purge is useless once you get 10-15 effects stacked up on you.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

@Avran_Sylt

You need to realize that, while you're advocating that DKs remain "stand-your-ground" damage dealers, other classes are evolving to counter that style of game play. In my earlier post above, I mentioned that one of my characters has 45% defile that, he alone, can debuff a DK with.

The changes to CP mean that we need to evolve as well. Eventually, your house is going to get wrecked and you need to be ready to move away quickly to restart the fight as well.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Savos_Saren

I realize that, but I'm also taking into consideration that generally the community is also lashing out against the powercreep of the Defile stat.

Which, TBH, I think that Defile should be subtractive against current healing bonuses, rather than being multiplied against the sum afterward.

10*1.5 = 15 * 0.5 = 7.5

10 * (1.5-0.5) = 10

And if it already is subtractive, then it needs a nerfin' instead of being a band-aid fix, the problem heals need to be looked at instead.

NBrookus · April 2018

Befoul CP tree is too strong for the CP investment.

techprince · April 2018

I would rather have Shattering Rocks putting target offbalanced with 100% chance and enemies in the area with 50% chance.

Vaoh · April 2018

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

Wings are strong, already shuts down every ranged build.

I’ve been having some fun on Mag DK recently and it wasn’t even worth slotting. Maybe in a duel.... but elsewhere? If fighting multiple targets, wings become useless. An absolute waste of a gcd. Any other skill would be more useful on my bar.

The OP’s suggestion makes it less punishing vs a single target (only 3 projectiles reflected, less of a hard counter to ranged builds) but it becomes per target, so it fulfills the role it was originally intended to and becomes good again. Reflective 4 out of 10+ projectiles coming your way is nothing. A Stam build could just dodge roll. Mag DK needs to be able to reflect tons of projectiles, which was a class-defining feature they once had.