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Blazing Shield is useless scaling off health
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ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭I heavenly doubt that your breath of life heals for 10k...
It actually heals for much more than that in raids. More like 15k. But it would only need to heal for 5k to be better than Sun Shield with any setup, because that healing heals damage that was mitigated by block and armor, whereas the shield applies before armor and block. So on a 60k HP tank with 0 points in magicka and no spell damage bonuses on gear it would still be better most of the time. For tanks who have less health than that and much more magicka, this shield becomes even more useless. My tank has 33k HP and 28k magicka, with 2 set bonuses for +spell damage. You can imagine what a joke sun shield is with this setup.0 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes exactly thats the point. First off, your build is not a real tank build. Tanks nowadays, at least those for endgame content run a bit more health, which would benefit sun shield. Second there are a lot of types of mitigation, that comes before the damage shield, so damage to the shield already is mitigated by minor maim and protection for example. You know why tanks use damage shields? Because there are bosses hitting so hard in this game, that you wont survive long without them. Sun shield would be very strong for tanks dedicated to do this kind of content and will be a life safer. On a tank with 60k health, the shield size can surpass 20k with just a hit of cp allocation easely, while his breath of life heals probably for 6k. And yours wont heal for that much more as long as you dont get buffed by your group. This is rather the pve perspective and if you tanked the warrior on vet or asylum in vet and you made it out of there without dying a lot, then you are lucky with your healers. For pvp again sun shield is amazing when you build for it. First of you wont get critical hits, second you return a nice amount of damage.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I heavenly doubt that your breath of life heals for 10k...
It actually heals for much more than that in raids. More like 15k. But it would only need to heal for 5k to be better than Sun Shield with any setup, because that healing heals damage that was mitigated by block and armor, whereas the shield applies before armor and block. So on a 60k HP tank with 0 points in magicka and no spell damage bonuses on gear it would still be better most of the time. For tanks who have less health than that and much more magicka, this shield becomes even more useless. My tank has 33k HP and 28k magicka, with 2 set bonuses for +spell damage. You can imagine what a joke sun shield is with this setup.
How do you guarantee you get hit by that breath of Life? Turn around from the rest of your team every time?Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 29, 2018 12:02PM0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Well, Blazeplars have been a thing and were incredibly potent in PvP. That's why they nerfed it.
Only because people didn't get that constantly hitting that 70k Templar with Blazing shield up wasn't a great idea. It's a bit like pre 1.6 magDKs - in part they were so obscene also because people fed them Ultimate like crazy. These were really partially L2P issues if the term has any merit anywhere.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
(Snipped) ... In vAA I never actually use Sunshield either except to enable the passive, because again, that magicka is better used on BoL or the ranged taunt- (snip)Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It makes very little sense to me. Most tanks slot resistance buffs, so shield is kind of wasted there.
No one uses it in dungeons, that I've seen. Healers cast much better shields just from proc sets.
Why even have it anymore?
Just a useless... super duper useless skill.
you are wrong, you dont se it on tmplrs only bc most of tanks are DK, but when you play tankplar you cannot exist without sunshild, its give you huge HP buffer and and you have bonus for blocking mele dmg only by slot this. Its amazing when tank mutliple mobs due to dmg retur which help you hold agro ( as axes in AA) or let you survive comon boss atack i dugeon wthout blocking, which alow you use HA to replenis stamina. And on Stamplar its rly helpful on solo content as vMA bc it offer you protection without drain your stamina pool.
It will never cease to amaze me that people use an example where something is good to prove it is not.
In vAA, on the axes, do you know why some dk tanks use ash cloud? You can soft aggro mobs, so long as you're the only one hitting them and hitting them consistently. Wanna know the skill that does that and protects you?0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly, blazing shield is not useless because it scales of health.
Its useless because its more expensive and less effective then bone shield and morphs (undaunted skill line).
I may be wrong, but imo its the only class skill that performs much worse then a skill available to all classes and still costs more!
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ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes exactly thats the point. First off, your build is not a real tank build. Tanks nowadays, at least those for endgame content run a bit more health, which would benefit sun shield. Second there are a lot of types of mitigation, that comes before the damage shield, so damage to the shield already is mitigated by minor maim and protection for example. You know why tanks use damage shields? Because there are bosses hitting so hard in this game, that you wont survive long without them. Sun shield would be very strong for tanks dedicated to do this kind of content and will be a life safer. On a tank with 60k health, the shield size can surpass 20k with just a hit of cp allocation easely, while his breath of life heals probably for 6k. And yours wont heal for that much more as long as you dont get buffed by your group. This is rather the pve perspective and if you tanked the warrior on vet or asylum in vet and you made it out of there without dying a lot, then you are lucky with your healers. For pvp again sun shield is amazing when you build for it. First of you wont get critical hits, second you return a nice amount of damage.
It doesn't really matter what other mitigation benefits the shield, because the main sources of mitigation (armor and block) are ignored, and healing benefits from all other sources of mitigation too. Those 2 alone make the shields worth less than 1/4 of a heal. And if you stack health on a templar, you're screwed anyways, because you're as good as dead if there is no healer to heal you, and unless YOU are lucky with your healers, you will not complete the content, whereas between 1.6k base magicka regen, rune focus and Bloodthorn's Touch set procs I can stay alive while at the same time throwing emergency heals to DDs for a very long time. Stacking health is a good strategy on a DK, since the DK heal scales with max. HP, but on a templar it's a very bad idea, because you will give literally no group support with that build, and only soak up your healers' magicka.
Besides, how often do you see tanks with 60k HP? I have 45k on my DK, and that's already with 44 attribute points in health and 4 HP set bonuses. I want to see you casting the shield more than twice in 30 seconds with a 60k HP build. Both your stam and magicka sustain would be horrible. Whereas I can get out a heal that heals for an equivalent of a 60k shield every 4-5 seconds for as long as the fight lasts. The only fight I've done where that wasn't enough to stay alive without a healer focusing on me was last boss in vHRC.3 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
(Snipped) ... In vAA I never actually use Sunshield either except to enable the passive, because again, that magicka is better used on BoL or the ranged taunt- (snip)Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It makes very little sense to me. Most tanks slot resistance buffs, so shield is kind of wasted there.
No one uses it in dungeons, that I've seen. Healers cast much better shields just from proc sets.
Why even have it anymore?
Just a useless... super duper useless skill.
you are wrong, you dont se it on tmplrs only bc most of tanks are DK, but when you play tankplar you cannot exist without sunshild, its give you huge HP buffer and and you have bonus for blocking mele dmg only by slot this. Its amazing when tank mutliple mobs due to dmg retur which help you hold agro ( as axes in AA) or let you survive comon boss atack i dugeon wthout blocking, which alow you use HA to replenis stamina. And on Stamplar its rly helpful on solo content as vMA bc it offer you protection without drain your stamina pool.
It will never cease to amaze me that people use an example where something is good to prove it is not.
In vAA, on the axes, do you know why some dk tanks use ash cloud? You can soft aggro mobs, so long as you're the only one hitting them and hitting them consistently. Wanna know the skill that does that and protects you?
How is it good if I only use it for the passive that I can get by slotting literally any other skill from that tree? I may as well slot puncturing sweep, I just don't want to accidentally press it since it cancels block. Explosive Charge is exactly as useful as Sun Shield on the axes, and shards are even better because they do more damage over their duration, don't have to be spammed like crazy, and are cheaper (and before you ask why I don't use them - I do, on the back bar).
And the protection that it gives is negligible as I thoroughly explained in previous posts.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
(Snipped) ... In vAA I never actually use Sunshield either except to enable the passive, because again, that magicka is better used on BoL or the ranged taunt- (snip)Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It makes very little sense to me. Most tanks slot resistance buffs, so shield is kind of wasted there.
No one uses it in dungeons, that I've seen. Healers cast much better shields just from proc sets.
Why even have it anymore?
Just a useless... super duper useless skill.
you are wrong, you dont se it on tmplrs only bc most of tanks are DK, but when you play tankplar you cannot exist without sunshild, its give you huge HP buffer and and you have bonus for blocking mele dmg only by slot this. Its amazing when tank mutliple mobs due to dmg retur which help you hold agro ( as axes in AA) or let you survive comon boss atack i dugeon wthout blocking, which alow you use HA to replenis stamina. And on Stamplar its rly helpful on solo content as vMA bc it offer you protection without drain your stamina pool.
It will never cease to amaze me that people use an example where something is good to prove it is not.
In vAA, on the axes, do you know why some dk tanks use ash cloud? You can soft aggro mobs, so long as you're the only one hitting them and hitting them consistently. Wanna know the skill that does that and protects you?
How is it good if I only use it for the passive that I can get by slotting literally any other skill from that tree?
...
And the protection that it gives is negligible as I thoroughly explained in previous posts.
Wanted to politely address these two points. The first is easily fixed- slot it and try it. Defensive abilities are always going to get compared to healing. "Why would I ever use this shield if a heal does more" is an argument that leaves out very important points to consider.
Old saying goes you can't heal one shots. This is true. There's not amount of healing that will help you recover from instantaneous death. There is however, a threshold where shielding will save you from one shots (votory of velidreth, poorly timed heavy attack on the warrior, etc).
Now, I can already imagine that this isn't enough for you to use a shield. After all, it doesn't benefit from block and armor, so it is essentially a naked hit right?
Nope.
Block base is 50%. We'll be generous and give you armor cap, since most tanks don't have it when their proc set is on cool down it should also stand in for a decent amount of the templar passive for slotting sun shield and morphs. Armor cap is another 50%. Sword and board offers another 20% mitigation. Champion passives (properly set up) also give 19% and 11% from direct damage/dot and physical or magic damage.
So,
A 40k hit incoming won't kill me with 40k health, because I'm a tank. Let's see how hard it hits, shall we?
Blocking, no ward: 40k x (.5) (.5) (.8) (.81) (.89) (.85) = 4902.12 assuming block, armor cap, sword and shield passive, cp, cp, and minor main.
Blocking, ward: 40k (.81) (.89) (.85) - (12,480 x 1.16) = 10,033.8 (let's round up for simplicity to 10,040).
Now the actual damage incoming is 10,040 and with the above calculation becomes 2008.
So the difference between ward and no ward is I don't need healing with ward. A mutagen tick heals me to full and then some. For emphasis, not using a ward means your incoming damage was actually 2.5x.
Calculation formula credit: Paulsimonps's post here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1Edited by DocFrost72 on March 29, 2018 4:58PM0 -
UppGRAYxDD✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blazing shield has been nerfed into nonexistence in PvP and for the most part in PvE as well. The dmg nerf was unwarranted and really affected the main reason to run in in PvE, damage. I used to run a blazing shield in vDSA solely to tank/dps the final boss and would be able to solo burn him from 70% to >30% before the rest of the squad could handle the mini bosses. As for making the ability scale off magicka, this is a bad idea. It would immediately make magplars way too strong. If there was going to be a change, I would suggest making the other morph "radiant ward" grant either a 15 sec evasion bonus or 5 second blinding light and keep the cost the same."Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UppGRAYxDD wrote: »Blazing shield has been nerfed into nonexistence in PvP and for the most part in PvE as well. The dmg nerf was unwarranted and really affected the main reason to run in in PvE, damage. I used to run a blazing shield in vDSA solely to tank/dps the final boss and would be able to solo burn him from 70% to >30% before the rest of the squad could handle the mini bosses. As for making the ability scale off magicka, this is a bad idea. It would immediately make magplars way too strong. If there was going to be a change, I would suggest making the other morph "radiant ward" grant either a 15 sec evasion bonus or 5 second blinding light and keep the cost the same.
I agree on this. As much as magic stacking would help give defense for the shield, we don't have the mobilty sorcs/nbs have to make that build useful in PvP.
Evasion or the small miss chance you mention fits within the "house" playstyle of Templar better
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »
(Snipped) ... In vAA I never actually use Sunshield either except to enable the passive, because again, that magicka is better used on BoL or the ranged taunt- (snip)Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It makes very little sense to me. Most tanks slot resistance buffs, so shield is kind of wasted there.
No one uses it in dungeons, that I've seen. Healers cast much better shields just from proc sets.
Why even have it anymore?
Just a useless... super duper useless skill.
you are wrong, you dont se it on tmplrs only bc most of tanks are DK, but when you play tankplar you cannot exist without sunshild, its give you huge HP buffer and and you have bonus for blocking mele dmg only by slot this. Its amazing when tank mutliple mobs due to dmg retur which help you hold agro ( as axes in AA) or let you survive comon boss atack i dugeon wthout blocking, which alow you use HA to replenis stamina. And on Stamplar its rly helpful on solo content as vMA bc it offer you protection without drain your stamina pool.
It will never cease to amaze me that people use an example where something is good to prove it is not.
In vAA, on the axes, do you know why some dk tanks use ash cloud? You can soft aggro mobs, so long as you're the only one hitting them and hitting them consistently. Wanna know the skill that does that and protects you?
How is it good if I only use it for the passive that I can get by slotting literally any other skill from that tree?
...
And the protection that it gives is negligible as I thoroughly explained in previous posts.
Wanted to politely address these two points. The first is easily fixed- slot it and try it. Defensive abilities are always going to get compared to healing. "Why would I ever use this shield if a heal does more" is an argument that leaves out very important points to consider.
Old saying goes you can't heal one shots. This is true. There's not amount of healing that will help you recover from instantaneous death. There is however, a threshold where shielding will save you from one shots (votory of velidreth, poorly timed heavy attack on the warrior, etc).
Now, I can already imagine that this isn't enough for you to use a shield. After all, it doesn't benefit from block and armor, so it is essentially a naked hit right?
Nope.
Block base is 50%. We'll be generous and give you armor cap, since most tanks don't have it when their proc set is on cool down it should also stand in for a decent amount of the templar passive for slotting sun shield and morphs. Armor cap is another 50%. Sword and board offers another 20% mitigation. Champion passives (properly set up) also give 19% and 11% from direct damage/dot and physical or magic damage.
So,
A 40k hit incoming won't kill me with 40k health, because I'm a tank. Let's see how hard it hits, shall we?
Blocking, no ward: 40k x (.5) (.5) (.8) (.81) (.89) (.85) = 4902.12 assuming block, armor cap, sword and shield passive, cp, cp, and minor main.
Blocking, ward: 40k (.81) (.89) (.85) - (12,480 x 1.16) = 10,033.8 (let's round up for simplicity to 10,040).
Now the actual damage incoming is 10,040 and with the above calculation becomes 1,230.4.
So the difference between ward and no ward is I don't need healing with ward. A mutagen tick heals me to full and then some. For emphasis, not using a ward means your incoming damage was actually 4x, making your comparison to BoL being 4x as effective an amusing coincidence
Calculation formula credit: Paulsimonps's post here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
LOL. You're talking about 1-shots, yet you bring an example with a hit that literally a magsorc could survive without lifting his staff to block? If you are talking about potential tank 1-shots, how about you do the same math with 100-150k unmitigated damage? We'll see how good your shield is then. Because with anything less than that the term "1-shot" when talking about tanks is laughable.
Also, the only mitigation that your dmg shield benefits from is effects that are on your enemy (minor maim, mending set etc). It does not benefit from effects on your character (CPs, minor protection etc), so I have no clue why there is more than 1 multiplier on the damage in your calculation before the shield. Besides, by using the "above calculation" after the shield you counted minor maim twice.
And you don't need a heal because you already spent your magicka on that shield of yours (which in fact may have been wasted because you avoided that hit you were expecting in other ways, but that's a topic for another day), of which you probably have way less than I do. So your "not needing a heal" argument is just wrong on every level.
And yes, my templar is armor capped, and has a permanent minor protection buff due to the vampire cloak set (though I do switch it out for ebon if we don't have an OT to wear it and the group requires it, in which case my healing gets buffed anyways). So you were not being generous, you actually unjustly left out the templar passive, and you didn't account for minor protection.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »
(Snipped) ... In vAA I never actually use Sunshield either except to enable the passive, because again, that magicka is better used on BoL or the ranged taunt- (snip)Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It makes very little sense to me. Most tanks slot resistance buffs, so shield is kind of wasted there.
No one uses it in dungeons, that I've seen. Healers cast much better shields just from proc sets.
Why even have it anymore?
Just a useless... super duper useless skill.
you are wrong, you dont se it on tmplrs only bc most of tanks are DK, but when you play tankplar you cannot exist without sunshild, its give you huge HP buffer and and you have bonus for blocking mele dmg only by slot this. Its amazing when tank mutliple mobs due to dmg retur which help you hold agro ( as axes in AA) or let you survive comon boss atack i dugeon wthout blocking, which alow you use HA to replenis stamina. And on Stamplar its rly helpful on solo content as vMA bc it offer you protection without drain your stamina pool.
It will never cease to amaze me that people use an example where something is good to prove it is not.
In vAA, on the axes, do you know why some dk tanks use ash cloud? You can soft aggro mobs, so long as you're the only one hitting them and hitting them consistently. Wanna know the skill that does that and protects you?
How is it good if I only use it for the passive that I can get by slotting literally any other skill from that tree?
...
And the protection that it gives is negligible as I thoroughly explained in previous posts.
Wanted to politely address these two points. The first is easily fixed- slot it and try it. Defensive abilities are always going to get compared to healing. "Why would I ever use this shield if a heal does more" is an argument that leaves out very important points to consider.
Old saying goes you can't heal one shots. This is true. There's not amount of healing that will help you recover from instantaneous death. There is however, a threshold where shielding will save you from one shots (votory of velidreth, poorly timed heavy attack on the warrior, etc).
Now, I can already imagine that this isn't enough for you to use a shield. After all, it doesn't benefit from block and armor, so it is essentially a naked hit right?
Nope.
Block base is 50%. We'll be generous and give you armor cap, since most tanks don't have it when their proc set is on cool down it should also stand in for a decent amount of the templar passive for slotting sun shield and morphs. Armor cap is another 50%. Sword and board offers another 20% mitigation. Champion passives (properly set up) also give 19% and 11% from direct damage/dot and physical or magic damage.
So,
A 40k hit incoming won't kill me with 40k health, because I'm a tank. Let's see how hard it hits, shall we?
Blocking, no ward: 40k x (.5) (.5) (.8) (.81) (.89) (.85) = 4902.12 assuming block, armor cap, sword and shield passive, cp, cp, and minor main.
Blocking, ward: 40k (.81) (.89) (.85) - (12,480 x 1.16) = 10,033.8 (let's round up for simplicity to 10,040).
Now the actual damage incoming is 10,040 and with the above calculation becomes 1,230.4.
So the difference between ward and no ward is I don't need healing with ward. A mutagen tick heals me to full and then some. For emphasis, not using a ward means your incoming damage was actually 4x, making your comparison to BoL being 4x as effective an amusing coincidence
Calculation formula credit: Paulsimonps's post here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
LOL. You're talking about 1-shots, yet you bring an example with a hit that literally a magsorc could survive without lifting his staff to block? If you are talking about potential tank 1-shots, how about you do the same math with 100-150k unmitigated damage? We'll see how good your shield is then. Because with anything less than that the term "1-shot" when talking about tanks is laughable.
Also, the only mitigation that your dmg shield benefits from is effects that are on your enemy (minor maim, mending set etc). It does not benefit from effects on your character (CPs, minor protection etc), so I have no clue why there is more than 1 multiplier on the damage in your calculation before the shield. Besides, by using the "above calculation" after the shield you counted minor maim twice.
And you don't need a heal because you already spent your magicka on that shield of yours (which in fact may have been wasted because you avoided that hit you were expecting in other ways, but that's a topic for another day), of which you probably have way less than I do. So your "not needing a heal" argument is just wrong on every level.
And yes, my templar is armor capped, and has a permanent minor protection buff due to the vampire cloak set (though I do switch it out for ebon if we don't have an OT to wear it and the group requires it, in which case my healing gets buffed anyways). So you were not being generous, you actually unjustly left out the templar passive, and you didn't account for minor protection.
Step by step:
Wards benefit from champion points decreasing damage taken. Visit the link, or test it. You are factually wrong.
You have a good eye, I did have major maim on there twice! I erroneously just copy/pasted above calculation. So, the real value is actually 2008 damage. Thank you for correcting my maths
That however, is still a mutagen tick.
Let's try 150k damage!
With no ward: 18,382.95
With ward: 15487.59
But you know what, that seems a lot smaller, doesn't it? After all, what's a mere 3k? Well, it is more than minor maim! It's a 15.76% mitigation difference in these two hits.
Okay okay, but it can't be worth it for 3k yeah?
Welcome to AS, where your block value doesn't matter because the boss' fire attacks are ground aoe. To calculate that:
20k tick of damage that ignores block, which we'll use as a baseline.
20k without ward: 4902.12 per tick.
20k with ward: 2221.5 ward remaining after first tick.
So to summarize: it is, in a "one shot" situation on par with other defensive buffs, and in situations like vAS gives a huge benefit. AA it can soft tank the axes while acting as mitigation. In hrc, it can help you survive a second or two while the healer digs their brain out of their bag.
Saying it is worthless is pure fallacy. It might not be ridiculously broken, but it very much serves a purpose.
1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, of course the hit is smaller with a shield. But those 3k are 20% of my heal. Are you beginning to see how incredibly weak it is for it's cost in comparison to pretty much everything else? Yes, it allows you to survive a marginally small amount of damage more in a 1-hit scenario, but its effect is not worth the magicka cost, because nothing 1-shots an armor capped tank with 33-35k HP that wouldn't 1-shot one with 45k. Your magicka is wasted on something that you can get at little over 1/4 of the cost. In your AoE fire damage example that would be down to about 1/2 the cost, which is still a waste.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well, of course the hit is smaller with a shield. But those 3k are 20% of my heal. Are you beginning to see how incredibly weak it is for it's cost in comparison to pretty much everything else? Yes, it allows you to survive a marginally small amount of damage more in a 1-hit scenario, but its effect is not worth the magicka cost, because nothing 1-shots an armor capped tank with 33-35k HP that wouldn't 1-shot one with 45k. Your magicka is wasted on something that you can get at little over 1/4 of the cost. In your AoE fire damage example that would be down to about 1/2 the cost, which is still a waste-
To you.
And breath of life won't always hit you
edit: just read the base tooltips- breath of life costs MORE than radiant shield...Edited by DocFrost72 on March 29, 2018 6:05PM1 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its cost needs to be adjusted.
If it costs too little it becomes a OP spammable offensive defensive shield and as it sits right now its just too expensive to be valuable.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭It costs about 10% more, but is about 5-6 times more effective. With the most shield-oriented build, foregoing all other stats you'll get it down to maybe 2x, but healing will still be better by a mile per magicka point. The shield is just a complete waste, no matter your build, so it makes a hell of a lot more sense to focus on something else, if you don't want to intentionally gimp your char for no reason.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It costs about 10% more, but is about 5-6 times more effective. With the most shield-oriented build, foregoing all other stats you'll get it down to maybe 2x, but healing will still be better by a mile per magicka point. The shield is just a complete waste, no matter your build, so it makes a hell of a lot more sense to focus on something else, if you don't want to intentionally gimp your char for no reason.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see advantages in a proactive defense that can prevent a death, you are happy with a retroactive recovery system that tops you off after being hit.
Both work, and have specific advantages and disadvantages. You are welcome to disagree, of course. I don't know what you would like to hear to convince you otherwise, so I'm going to go do something else now 1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »It costs about 10% more, but is about 5-6 times more effective. With the most shield-oriented build, foregoing all other stats you'll get it down to maybe 2x, but healing will still be better by a mile per magicka point. The shield is just a complete waste, no matter your build, so it makes a hell of a lot more sense to focus on something else, if you don't want to intentionally gimp your char for no reason.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see advantages in a proactive defense that can prevent a death, you are happy with a retroactive recovery system that tops you off after being hit.
Both work, and have specific advantages and disadvantages. You are welcome to disagree, of course. I don't know what you would like to hear to convince you otherwise, so I'm going to go do something else now
To me it's about either
a) ability to stay alive longer while taking small or moderate hits
or
b) ability to survive extreme hits.
In case a) BoL wins by a mile, because it's at least 2x more effective per magicka point at doing the job, and in case of a specialized build 5-6 times more effective. And in case b) the shield provides such marginal benefits that the hit would have to fall into a very small specific range for it to make a difference, which just doesn't happen in reality and hence doesn't justify its cost, because the damage coming from the enemies you have to tank varies wildly from wet noodle to "OT, please put guard on me", and in those latter cases eating different food is just as effective while costing literally nothing and being up all the time.
And this is not a matter of disagreeing about playstyle, this shield is just bad by any measure imaginable. In it's current form if it cost 1-2k magicka, we could argue about whether it's useful in vAS, because then it really would be about play style and build, but as it stands right now, it's just bad for anything but RP.1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm not particularly fond of the notion that mitigation skills are buffed by damage dealing attributes. This is actually part of my beef with skills like hardened ward. If you are a damage dealer you should not inherently have more mitigation than the guy with the mitigation attributes. Max magicka + magic regeneration should not ever be tankier than a guy built for Max Health because the max health guy will not even come close to the damage dealing potential. Blazing Does have a damage reflect element I do recognize that but at this point the damage is a joke. That's my take on this discussion. Tanking skills don't need more nerfs - they've already been messed up too much already and the developers have catered far too much to the DPS crowd as it is.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Savos_Saren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It would be beneficial that they scale some "tank" abilities at a ratio of health and magicka or health and stamina.
I don't know if it's possible- but it would work as 75% health: 25% highest resource pool.
That way, abilities like Blazing Shield, Obsidian Shield, Gripping Shards, and Arctic Wind would be more relevant. It still rewards the player for being tanky... but it adds a little leeway to the potency of the skill.
I think we can all agree that these abilities are currently a little lackluster.
Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.
PC NA AD
Savos Saren0 -
I'm a blazplar and i'm useless in pvp but i've a lot of fun !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN_-N0H1zMU&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwekyiWiATA 1 -
datgladiatah✭✭✭Fighting for the design based around a templar tank is pointless because no one wants to use them and no one ever really does. They give no utility to their team, they have no cc, they can just taunt and give weak heals due to their forced focus into HP.
A morph designed around max health is fine but it would also be a good idea to make it scale on magicka and provide a different utility around it. A major evasion mechanic would be sensible because it does resemble a radiant sun, but it's on the spear line.
Overall, it's useless on any templar as of now. No tanks exist to bother with it and no stamplar or magplar would use it over their other options. Until they bring back what makes tanks good (buffing, debuffing, CC) then you might as well change it and flat out agree the templar has no place in tanking. Which i doubt is the intended design, but that's what ZOS is going for when they took away spearshards/blinds/ etc.2 -
I play a blazplar since more than 1 year, I always hear that we're useless and I like to joke with that (my vidéo "the most useless character") but in reality i don't know what kind or blazplar you meet but i have an utility when i'm in a group.
I'm always in front of them and pushing pushing pushing with my friend tank/heal, because of that, we often win against a zerg, do you know why? Because they're enough stupid to hit me instead of ignore me
Plus, i use cc of the vampire, i wear earthgore, i heal, give bone shield and saved a looooot of life.
So, yeah i like to say i'm useless to people who doesn't know real blazplar and frustrated people who keeps trying to win in 1v1 2v1 3v1 (LOL), you can still think we're useless but we're not
Sorry for my bad english
Edited by TheDreamyWriter on March 31, 2018 5:17PM0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭datgladiatah wrote: »Fighting for the design based around a templar tank is pointless because no one wants to use them and no one ever really does. They give no utility to their team, they have no cc, they can just taunt and give weak heals due to their forced focus into HP.
A morph designed around max health is fine but it would also be a good idea to make it scale on magicka and provide a different utility around it. A major evasion mechanic would be sensible because it does resemble a radiant sun, but it's on the spear line.
Overall, it's useless on any templar as of now. No tanks exist to bother with it and no stamplar or magplar would use it over their other options. Until they bring back what makes tanks good (buffing, debuffing, CC) then you might as well change it and flat out agree the templar has no place in tanking. Which i doubt is the intended design, but that's what ZOS is going for when they took away spearshards/blinds/ etc.
Which is why the Templar needs CC back. This game relies heavily on CC and Mobility and Templar has neither. I think that is a bigger problem, whatever your role is.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>3 -
Savos_Saren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Honestly, I agree with some of you. If you're going to have a BlazePlar build- you should be able to get some sort of CC to hold people near you.
Also, if you like playing a BlazePlar- trying building a health Warden. They have two abilities that will do pretty good damage when scaled off health: Gripping Shards and Arctic Wind.
Granted- I'd much rather ZOS do a 75:25 resource use, though.
Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.
PC NA AD
Savos Saren0 -
Interesting, i'll check thatSavos_Saren wrote: »Also, if you like playing a BlazePlar- trying building a health Warden.
0