**Should** the game designers look into changing the DW/Bow PVE meta?
Jarryzzt
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Consider the following scenario. You are a ZOS game designer (who plays the game and thus knows something about it - ha!). The PVE DPS meta has been bow-backbar for...a very long time, shall we say, because Hail and Poison Injection are two stupidly good DoTs even without the vMA bow. By definition this means that, excluding casuals/newbies/and so on, of course, only a handful of lunatics heretical xenos filth contrarians run non-bow setups. In almost all "top builds" for stamina are DW/Bow (with honorable mentions for Alcast's Bow/Bow Warden and 2H/Bow Stamsorc).
Do you think this is a good place for the meta to be - with pretty much one frontbar/backbar combination sitting at the top? I mean, from an MMO design perspective is it a good idea for the meta to settle into one winning combination?
Or should the designers look into "equalizing" the weapon lines to create a meta with two, three, four, five possible top-tier setups? [I.e. so that running DW/DW or DW/2H instead of DW/Bow is not a sudden DPS loss.] And, if so, what is the right way to go - bringing down bow DoTs, or, conversely, bringing up the other weapon lines? Or is the solution to add a new stam weapon line while keeping the existing ones unchanged?
Edited by Jarryzzt on March 29, 2018 2:40PM Do you think this is a good place for the meta to be - with pretty much one frontbar/backbar combination sitting at the top? I mean, from an MMO design perspective is it a good idea for the meta to settle into one winning combination?
Or should the designers look into "equalizing" the weapon lines to create a meta with two, three, four, five possible top-tier setups? [I.e. so that running DW/DW or DW/2H instead of DW/Bow is not a sudden DPS loss.] And, if so, what is the right way to go - bringing down bow DoTs, or, conversely, bringing up the other weapon lines? Or is the solution to add a new stam weapon line while keeping the existing ones unchanged?
**Should** the game designers look into changing the DW/Bow PVE meta? 55 votes
Heresy! There is absolutely nothing wrong with everyone running the same weapon combination!
10%
6 votes
Change is good - nerf bows!
0%
0 votes
Change is good - keep bows the same, but bring up the other weapon lines!
56%
31 votes
Only more weapon lines can make ESO great again!
10%
6 votes
I like cat videos!
21%
12 votes
0
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Liddyenna✭✭✭Doesn't matter what variety of weapons/skills are provided, there will always be an optimal 'load out' that perform best.
Nerf one thing and something else becomes the 'meta'
You are chasing your tail mate.13 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭right, some specific setup always is meta and everyone will build towards this. if it isnt bow, which provides an aoe over time (which pretty much every class has plus elemental blockade) and a nice execute, then it will change towards something else. same with dual wield providing a nice spammable and a dot. same goes for magicka, where everyone uses elemental blockade and since heal staves have no dps skills, it never will be even considered as dd weapon. 2h just doesnt have the utility to compare with dual wield...no cool dot, no cool spammable and no defence.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭I say buff bows to allow for ranged stam, but also buff melee dots so they surpass hail and poison injection and people can no longer complain that since bow is used for stam MELEE in pve, that it is in a "fine place".2 -
AverageJo3Gam3r✭✭✭✭✭Just move blade cloak to fighters guild. Maybe replacing that overly expensive circle thing. Survival is the biggest issue on non-DW-bow setups.
Next, remove the major brut from flying dagger and put it on silver shards, maybe with some other meaningful buff. Give stam classes easy access to major brut like magicka classes have easy access to major sorc.
Remove the speed penalty for snipe and heavy bow attacks. Bows are about speed and keeping distance after all.
Non meta setups like bow/bow can hit within 3-4K dps of the meta setups which is totally viable for all content. There will always be one setup that produces slightly better (or perceived slightly better) results so the sweaty try hards will always gravitate to a single setup. Rather than try to fix dps numbers, just fix the pain points with other setups.1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just wish that every weapon combination would parse with satisfying results.
Bow/Bow
Dw/dw
Etc.
That you are forced into combinations isn't what this game should be.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -2 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »I just wish that every weapon combination would parse with satisfying results.
Bow/Bow
Dw/dw
Etc.
That you are forced into combinations isn't what this game should be.
I'd accept dw/2h for melee too, but if it were in my power, I would choose bow/bow
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Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
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ZOS game designer (who plays the game and thus knows something about it - ha!
... only a handful of lunatics heretical xenos filth ...
... honorable mentions for Alcast's ...
i am starting to notice a pattern here on the forums that i think we should all take note.
and that is the way people are referring to eachother in a demeaning and insulting manner and it should not be allowed to continue.
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Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you want to get rid of bow back bar requirement then endless hail and PI would have to be nerfed when bow is used only on back bar. That's the only way.
However, I suggest we just be happy with bow backbar and instead focus on front bar. 2h is already in a really good spot, just that the handful of people who publish builds are happy with DW. A small buff is needed for 2h to put it at DW levels, it would be hard to do though without putting it over dw; my suggestion is double 2h enchant strength (at least the damage ones, WD one may be a little much) and give 2h a little aoe defense, like 8-10% dam redux (don't put it in rally, maybe reverse slice or a passive). Also increase 2h heavy attack damage and resource return. Just these changes have a danger to make it stronger than dw.
Bow is more complicated and I think it needs a bigger buff than 2h, other people know better how to do this. But it should be viable to go bow/bow; I want a stam ranged character.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
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I applaud the effort but 38k on a stamblade is pretty bad right now, about 10k lower than a meta setup solo parse.1 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »
I applaud the effort but 38k on a stamblade is pretty bad right now, about 10k lower than a meta setup solo parse.
That build uses zero pen sets; not clear what mundus but he says no cheese so I assume it's warrior. Can stamblade really hit 48k with no penetration? In addition, build above gives major slayer with I'm assuming insane uptime during execute.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I play bow/bow (stamsorc). Few would ever call bow/bow overpowered so I would surely hate to see any nerfing to bows. Don't know or care about melee weapons so will not comment on the DW aspect.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭How about the bow is unusable from dw range. I’ve never gotten over how stupid it is to stand toe to toe with a boss and switch back and forth between the bow and dual wield. Bow for range, swords and daggers when you’re close enough to use them. I wish I could go dw/dw, but I’d need to be really really good to pull it off. Need endless hail and pi.0 -
Kikke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭2h/bow = just as viable as dw/bow (I've used it in vMoL and vHoF), No need for buffs or nerfs anywere.
bow/bow = has the advantage of being range, so should be compared too ranged mag dps and not melee stam dps
Can people stop crying wolf when there is nothing wrong? Only thing we get from people crying before understanding mechanics is more unbalance. So shut it and rather ASK for builds if you want a *** snowflake build.
There are many ways too make dw/bow, 2h/bow, bow/bow, 2h/dw viable. Just dependent on WHAT you builds for!
You want the most SINGEL TARGET DPS, sure, go dw/bow as it's the tested and proved HIGHEST singel target dps. But NOONE could outdps my stamsorcs 2h/bow AOE DPS, ever! Tho, I did loose 5-10k singel target DPS running my AoE build, and gained 30-60k aoe DPS.
Learn the game before crying, so tired of these "buff this / nerf that" threads, soo *** ridiculous! IF YOU DONT KNOW HOW IT WORKS! DONT CRY ABOUT CHANGES!
*climbs back into the Cemetery*Cleared Trials:
- vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
-Someone said it, I guess.2 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerfing a bow at melee range would be very bad for bow/bow builds. Sure my bowsorc wants range but there are times when a boss gets into your face - neutering bows for a bow/bow when that happens would not be reasonable. If a bow is all you have then when a foe gets in your face you use your bow, even as you seek your preferred range.
My bowsorc actually spends a fair amount of time dancing with bosses within 7m. When she is soloing a WB, she drops her killing zone on the ground (hail + caltrops), heals via surge, adds more damage to her killing zone with hurricane and then dances nimbly around the boss intentionally keeping him in her killing zone.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All stamina builds are so similar, class seems only like a flavour.
Yup. And it’s boring. There was a big thread on this recently talking about how many unique high-end builds there were in other MMOs like WoW, which promote rather than avoid build diversity and interesting class mechanics.
This massive similarity between builds of different classes is what happens when the Devs micromanage every little thing that players do. “Play how you want to play” is actually the polar opposite if you care even slightly about effectiveness. Also this isn’t about DPS, because I know someone will comment about how you can beat everything in the game with some terrible build like an Ice Mage Warden.... that’s not the topic.
The issue is that if you play one Stamina class, you’ve played them all. Likewise even Magicka DPS has this issue to an extent - they use the exact same combo of their typical/boring ground-based AoE DoT and Blockade of Elements every 8-10sec, and almost always cast Destro Ult. Plus if not a NB you’ll probably be spamming Force Pulse. There are so few interesting, unique mechanics amongst classes (NB Bow procs, Templars *once great* jesus beam execute). So much feels similar for Magicka DPS, and in the case of Stamina DPS it is quite literally the same.
Before Morrowind, Stam builds could actually circumvent a lot of this similarity by being able to spam different skills using light attack rotations. You could even use vMA DW. Not anymore.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@AverageJo3Gam3r . Next, remove the major brut from flying dagger and put it on silver shards, maybe with some other meaningful buff. Give stam classes easy access to major brut like magicka classes have easy access to major sorc.
Every body does have easy access to both, pota last for longer then the cool down, just have to remember to press one button every 45 seconds. Anyone serious about dps already does this.0 -
LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love playing stamina, but I am rather bored of saying hello to mobs by using injection -> hail.
I have a stam dk that uses dw/2h but alas, it is not a very optimal build. One can dream...Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.1 -
LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »I use DW/2H for both pve and pvp.
@LittlePinkDot how is that working out for you? It is a build I would personally very much like to use.Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.0 -
AverageJo3Gam3r✭✭✭✭✭@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO sure, that works for serious PvE, but I'm not wasting expensive weapon power pots for a non-dlc vet dungeon run. On my DW/bow setup I have the luxury of slotting flying blade and it still provides meaningful dps when I click the button. Other setups don't have this luxury.
Plus, this thread is about PvE, but weapon power pots are not viable for PvP. Immovable/speed/tripots/detect pots are too good to give up.
TL;DR: the presence of weapon power pots doesn't negate the need for easy access to major brut in the fighters guild to make it equal with mag.Edited by AverageJo3Gam3r on March 30, 2018 3:08PM0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think there's a problem with bows, honestly they need to be buffed aside from endless hail and injection. Scatter shot and arrow spray are terrible, snipe needs improvements for pve, and toxic barrage is a useless ultimate.
Two handed needs definite buffs for pve dps too, dual wield is in a good spot atm.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you are a meta chaser, you'll always be using whatever the other meta chasers are using so what would be the point?There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have a few toons that aren’t meta. They’re still fun to play for me. Sure, there’s probably better setups out there...some are a little better, some are a lot better; if I cared enough all my toons would be meta setup but I like to have a few that I can play how I want.
You get 8 character slots and can buy more. They don’t all have to be the same....but if you intend on doing group content, you shouldn’t be surprised when get kicked for being bad in some jacked up weak af setup.
There is a normal version of group content that is very forgiving to whatever craptastic build you can dream up like my frost Mage warden.0 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭LukosCreyden wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »I use DW/2H for both pve and pvp.
@LittlePinkDot how is that working out for you? It is a build I would personally very much like to use.
I only just recently got to cp 160. DW/2H is fun but I still need to get end of game gear. Right now im just wearing whatever cheap sets I could get from guild trader.0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭When DW gets more weapon damage, faster attacks and more set slot pieces it seems pretty silly OP... so nerf nightblades I figure!0 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All weapons should be equally viable in PvE.
Weapons that are not the top choice for PvE should receive PvE boosting morphs (over current useless morphs) so that they will reach the same potential as the top performing skill lines.
Very easy.0
