Every time I return to this game, the class design drives me away

Anysra · March 2018

Nope. You're right. I quit ESO since Clock Work City and haven't played since... For some reasons: 1: The Class mechanics, LAG, nerfs, lack of build, too repetitive, too many stuff behind those (censored) crates.

I have no idea when I play ESO again, but not soon though. It's like, I'm CP 600+ Don't even remember exactly those numbers. But, it's like you are in progression of the End game but you don't know where you go. You just simply run and run and search for something different. Can't find it though.

Swen_von_Walhallion · March 2018

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.

its easy Templar with ravager or 7 legion + peline sets, 1h/s + 2h you will have decent wpn and spell power anyd you cen do decent amout of physical dmg wia biting jabs or 2h skills and can use heallin and dmg spells from templar skill lines. or you can replace peline with mechanical akuity to get even biger dmg burs but trade it for weaker spell. And it all when wearing hevy armor.

IcyDeadPeople · March 2018

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.

In PVP there is a lot more flexibility for interesting builds and you can make this concept work. In PVE however, you are usually trying to reach certain level single target dps, so you are more limited in options. Maybe it could work for tank role if you give up on the "high physical damage" part.

I'm a bit confused because you seem to be requesting both greater flexibility (for useful mag/stam hybrid builds) and at the same time reduced flexibility (fixed class system where you don't even get to choose your weapons).

This is the paradox though: in a lot of ways the fixed class games are actually more flexible.

Just to use WoW because it is an easy example: there are 30 something specs with 6 healer specs, 6 tanks, and tons of DPS. Almost any class fantasy you can imagine from popular media is an option. Do some classes have similar abilities? Of course. But they are not exactly the same as they are in this game. Crusader Strike isn't the same as Slam, which isn't the same as Stormstrike or Obliterate. That difference really matters. Having different resources to draw from matters.

There's also the fact that archetypal abilities are simply baked into the class. Paladins and death knights and warriors get to wear heavy armor because it is an integral part of the class fantasy, not because it helps their dps with armor skills. Ret paladins can fire off decent spot heals despite stacking Strength because the ability scales on strength as part of an overall package.

Basically, by breaking things up into constituent parts (like armor having its own skills, and weapons having their own skills) they actually ended up making the game far more boring and homogeneous.

There are many variations of healer builds that work well in this game (much more than other MMOs). Same goes for tanking, and it is obvious the level of flexibility is tremendous for PVP builds of all flavors.

As for PVE dps builds, there are more alternatives even in this very restricted role with single goal of dps. It's easier to follow the meta approach for PVE dps, but there are some players who have done incredibly well and completed endgame vet trials with crazy off the wall builds including hybrids.

It requires a lot more research, planning and testing to pull it off, but for some of us, this is the most fun aspect of the game, coming up with our own original build concepts. It doesn't sound appealing to me to choose one of 6 healer specs for example or one of 6 tank specs etc. Designing your build is fun when there is some complexity and you have to make difficult choices among various options for sets, race, class, weapon type, traits, skills, food, glyphs, mundus etc. If the choices are too easy, it becomes boring.

josiahva · March 2018

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

I purchased ESO at release, and I have played it quite a bit both on PC and PS4 (several hundred hours each). But every time I put the game down for a while, it's always for the same reason: I really hate the class design and mechanics.

One of the major advantages of a fixed class/spec system like WoW or even SWTOR compared to ESO is that it is much, much easier to play a particular class fantasy. Want to be a holy warrior who smites evil? Play a ret paladin - you'll get holy magic, physical damage, and heavy armor. But you seemingly can't do this in ESO and actually be successful. The design meta means that if you want to do physical dps, you have to wear medium armor. What kind of paladin fantasy - tank or damage - imagines running around in the same armor as a rogue?

Also, the fact that weapons are designed independently of class means that despite having a theoretical "free-form" skill system with infinite diversity, people actually end up more same-y than in games with fixed classes. A Ret Paladin in wow has completely different melee attacks than a Frost or Unholy Death Knight even though they are using the exact same weapon (a two-hander). They feel very, very different to play. The same is true for basically any other pairing: enhancement shaman and rogues are nothing alike even though both dual-wield. But in this game, everyone basically uses the same weapon skills, guild skills, and armor skills with the only difference being a few passives and a couple class skills. Isn't that incredibly boring? Doesn't that need a total redesign?

Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.

Whut? You can very well focus on weapon damage in heavy armor(Dreugh King Slayer?)...but from an RP perspective, thats not even needed anymore with the outfit system...you can make light or med armor look like heavy armor...bam, problem fixed.

Violynne · March 2018

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong.

You're not wrong, at least to me.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I feel trapped in each of the classes offered to us in the game.

It's also the reason I leave for months at a time. This game gets to me over time (and this threshold happens much more frequently) because I feel so damned trapped in my class. Proc, AC, LA, rinse, repeat over and over.

I don't look for high DPS builds, and I'm not in it for the loot, but admittedly, taking these elements out of the game there's really no "end game" for those of us who fall into this category.

Sure, you can call me "casual", but I would like the opportunity to get more from a game I'm subscribing to.

I stay because of the hope it will get better. The reality is, the game is getting better.

It's just doing so at a pace which conflicts with my boredom threshold.

Sigtric · March 2018

Boring is all relative.

Ultimately I would have much rather seen all class skill lines available to any character as a classless system, but I do enjoy what we have now more than a strict class /spec system like you have in wow/LOTRO/swtor etc

Drachenfier · March 2018

Sigtric wrote: »

Boring is all relative.

Ultimately I would have much rather seen all class skill lines available to any character as a classless system, but I do enjoy what we have now more than a strict class /spec system like you have in wow/LOTRO/swtor etc

I don't, not at all. I still enjoy the game, though.

IV_Deity · March 2018

Caleb_Kadesh wrote: »

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.

It seem that you are asking to make ESO in the image of all the other MMO's. Seems counter productive. The unique nature of ESO is a great part of what draws me to this game.

THANK YOU.

Caleb_Kadesh · March 2018

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

It's almost funny, in trying to make the classes less restrictive and mundane, they actually caused their viability to be hyper focused on a single aspect, which if you don't embrace, you're not going to succeed in the game.

What defines success in this game?

I typically go out of my way to avoid the META builds and yet I am very successful in this game. I enjoy playing DK healers, NB Tanks as well as some of the standard fare.

What I enjoy about this game is what I can be is not pre-defined for me. If I want to run a Stamina Healer or a Magicka Tank I can enjoy this game with my own creativity.

SirAndy · March 2018

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

Isn't that incredibly boring? Doesn't that need a total redesign?

No and no ...

tinythinker · March 2018

They have the code already in the game to "scale off of whichever stat is higher" so the non-staff weapons could get new shimmery or glowy sets of animations indicating the user has charged or infused them with magic and let them do spell damage.

They could do the same on reverse for staves only charging them with spirit or nature energy or something.

This would involve a lot of rebalancing and would tick a decent number of people off. So don't hold your breath.

kadar · March 2018

Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.

Stamina Templar, 2h front bar, wear heavy armor. For PVP especially this is incredibly viable.

You have to get past playing a Retribution Paladin. This is a different game. A similar archetype exists, but it will obviously feel different. For you though, the way you talk about it, maybe just stick with WoW? You obviously approve of the rigid build system there, so why not play that game?

Robo_Hobo · March 2018

With the outfit system you can just have your outfit be heavy armor, even if you're really wearing medium.

Two Handed DPS isn't so bad anymore in PVE, and always had a place in PvP. It's not the top DPS, dual weild is still better, but it can successfully do all of the content in the game when you learn how to use it, even trials, but probably not vet leaderboards. Personally I like using 2h more, for vet maelstrom and dungeons.

If you're a Templar, that has your holy knight stuff right there. Biting jabs, Power of the Light, and Repentance are all very good skills for a holy warrior and used in the top DPS builds for stamina Templars. Then there's vigor, which while not a Templar skill, does good healing for non-mages, to you and a bit to others. Repetance also heals you.

AlnilamE · March 2018

aedra wrote: »

I won't lie if they completely rehauled the class system I think I'd be OK with it. I don't really like how its set up either. I'd rather there be no classes at all and being able to mix and match *everything* I'm sure that would lead to so many balancing issues though.

If they completely redesigned the class system, it would feel like all my characters have died.

Jameliel · March 2018

Agree this game calls itself diverse, when in reality it's only different, and not in a good way. The only people who defend it are those who haven't played any other well-designed MMOs, and those who pretend they have.

wazbaumukerb14_ESO · March 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

You have to get past playing a Retribution Paladin. This is a different game. A similar archetype exists, but it will obviously feel different. For you though, the way you talk about it, maybe just stick with WoW? You obviously approve of the rigid build system there, so why not play that game?

I do play WoW. It is my primary game. But I also happen to like this game, and I enjoy playing it during content lulls. ES is a great universe.

But anyway, Ret Paladins aren't just a WoW thing. The classic paladin archetype from D&D and basically all other derivative fantasy is either sword and board + holy magic or a 2h and holy magic. See: Guardians in GW2, Warrior-Monks in GW, Justicars in Rift, and probably a million other examples. I picked holy warrior as an example because it is so common yet seemingly difficult to do in a game that supposedly has infinite flexibility.

The point is broader than that, though. I like the idea offered earlier about improving passives, but perhaps adding another skill tree to each class would add some additional diversity. Or class-specific version of weapon abilities - why is Templar Executioner exactly the same as DK Executioner?

Anyway, I agree that the outfit system is a huge boon for this.