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Every time I return to this game, the class design drives me away
I purchased ESO at release, and I have played it quite a bit both on PC and PS4 (several hundred hours each). But every time I put the game down for a while, it's always for the same reason: I really hate the class design and mechanics.
One of the major advantages of a fixed class/spec system like WoW or even SWTOR compared to ESO is that it is much, much easier to play a particular class fantasy. Want to be a holy warrior who smites evil? Play a ret paladin - you'll get holy magic, physical damage, and heavy armor. But you seemingly can't do this in ESO and actually be successful. The design meta means that if you want to do physical dps, you have to wear medium armor. What kind of paladin fantasy - tank or damage - imagines running around in the same armor as a rogue?
Also, the fact that weapons are designed independently of class means that despite having a theoretical "free-form" skill system with infinite diversity, people actually end up more same-y than in games with fixed classes. A Ret Paladin in wow has completely different melee attacks than a Frost or Unholy Death Knight even though they are using the exact same weapon (a two-hander). They feel very, very different to play. The same is true for basically any other pairing: enhancement shaman and rogues are nothing alike even though both dual-wield. But in this game, everyone basically uses the same weapon skills, guild skills, and armor skills with the only difference being a few passives and a couple class skills. Isn't that incredibly boring? Doesn't that need a total redesign?
Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.
One of the major advantages of a fixed class/spec system like WoW or even SWTOR compared to ESO is that it is much, much easier to play a particular class fantasy. Want to be a holy warrior who smites evil? Play a ret paladin - you'll get holy magic, physical damage, and heavy armor. But you seemingly can't do this in ESO and actually be successful. The design meta means that if you want to do physical dps, you have to wear medium armor. What kind of paladin fantasy - tank or damage - imagines running around in the same armor as a rogue?
Also, the fact that weapons are designed independently of class means that despite having a theoretical "free-form" skill system with infinite diversity, people actually end up more same-y than in games with fixed classes. A Ret Paladin in wow has completely different melee attacks than a Frost or Unholy Death Knight even though they are using the exact same weapon (a two-hander). They feel very, very different to play. The same is true for basically any other pairing: enhancement shaman and rogues are nothing alike even though both dual-wield. But in this game, everyone basically uses the same weapon skills, guild skills, and armor skills with the only difference being a few passives and a couple class skills. Isn't that incredibly boring? Doesn't that need a total redesign?
Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.
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Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're not wrong, in my opinion. Usually, when I put the game down for awhile, it because of one of two things: the classes are boring and too limited, or the lag drives me insane.
The weapon thing you mention is a major turn off for me as well. I hate staves, especially the way they're done in this game, but I also don't care much for the stamina classes because - if you've played one - you've played them all. And playing a magicka dps with anything other than a staff is extremely gimping your character.Edited by Drachenfier on March 28, 2018 9:06PM12 -
Drachenfier wrote: »I hate staves, especially the way they're done in this game, but I also don't care much for the stamina classes because - if you've played one - you've played them all. And playing a magicka dps with anything other than a staff is extremely gimping your character.
Yeah, this is basically the rub. Class abilities are the only unique things about a character - I want my skill bar to be mostly those. The fact they are all magicka by default is a huge design problem.2 -
magictucktuck✭✭✭✭✭you can do a magicka based heavy armor templar, a 2h but not 2h skills just your class gap closer and puncturing sweeps and forward momentum for snare removal or jsut your class purge. and bam you're a a holy warrior in heavy armor. add in heals and whatever else u want from the Templar line
i mean if youre pvping then you can make a heavy armor templar work, most do use that "healbots" for pve you can be the heal/tank in vet dungeons. you wont be welcome in trials but you probably dont do those anyways unless its normal with some friends you will do fine in thoseEdited by magictucktuck on March 28, 2018 9:37PM1 -
greylox✭✭✭✭✭Opening up all class lines to all players will help, then they also have to add more morphs for stam and finally add separate PvP skill morphs and add passive morphs for doing more damage in heavy armour, at a cost, for instance (all passives should have morphs). Also add an easier way to swap between PvP and PvE builds so you dont have to respec everything seperately, just a one button press and cp, gear, skills etc are changed.
It's an RPG, I don't want it more complicated, just more options and freedom.Edited by greylox on March 28, 2018 9:48PMPC EU
House of the Black Lotus
*{Smokes-in-the-Shade }* (Mag pet Sorc Argonian, prolific thief, willing participant of the dark arts, gardener of exotic...herbs)
{Lugdum The Mechanist} (Hybrid Orc Templar, collector of ancient Ayleid smoking pipes)
{Rantoul} (Dark Elf Magknight, likes an ale between boss fights, has been known to offer daedric princes out in a fist fight)
{Red, The Wanderer} (Bosmer stam sorc and hunter extraordinaire)
{Shoots-For-Stars} (Argonian Mag pet Sorc Ice mage Healer)
*{Jinny the spark }* (Sassy Imperial Stamplar)
{Crezzi the Drifter} (Magblade khajiit burglar, available for questionable operations)
{Grif the Despised} (StamKnight Tank Nord, Eastmarch Master Drinker and spinner of tall yarns)
{Geraldine Stone-Heart} (High Elf MagSorc Ice Tank, Mystic, practitioner of the ancient arts)
*{Anawinn}* (Stam pet Ward Redguard, Mother to a bear and an unruly Hunger,Librarian, field medic and natures fist)
{*}Mains
{ CP 900+ }
Caretaker of Battle Island (Grand Topal), the holiday destination for the discerning warrior
Residing in Stay-Moist Mansion-Shadowfen - The Smoking Den (as of 6th feb 2017)2 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with you about the dislike of ESO class system, but for a different reason: every class forces a magicka/mystical character. Welcome to the magicka bias of ESO. I just found something I dislike the least,and stick with that. Though I have been branching out a bit recently.
I could easily make what you're asking for in this game: Templar (w/e race you choose), all-in on stamina attribute. 2h on one bar, bow on other (yes you gotta use a bow). Vigor for healing (think of it as holy). 7pcs medium armor (Twice fanged snake (swap for war machine in trials) set and vicious ophidian, vMA bow and asylum 2h). OUTFIT: heavy armor (admittedly there's not much good plate armor in this game, but I'm sure you can find something). For attacks you can use the jabby Templar ability (Stam morph ofc) and 2h: cleave, reverse slice. Bow: endless hail, poison injection. Rearming trap, caltrops, some other class skill (don't know Templar sorry). Use that cheap Templar ulti with war machine.
Outfit system helps a lot.
Edit to add: there is no stamina class because this game was designed for everyone to be magicka. For stamina each entire class is basically defined by 1 or 2 passives and maybe 1 active skill and an ult. like dk (my class) for Stam is defined by venomous claw, molten weapons, standard of might, and battle roar...that's it (pve).Edited by Kanar on March 28, 2018 10:09PM0 -
Caleb_Kadesh✭✭✭wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.
It seem that you are asking to make ESO in the image of all the other MMO's. Seems counter productive. The unique nature of ESO is a great part of what draws me to this game.4 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.
In PVP there is a lot more flexibility for interesting builds and you can make this concept work. In PVE however, you are usually trying to reach certain level single target dps, so you are more limited in options. Maybe it could work for tank role if you give up on the "high physical damage" part.
I'm a bit confused because you seem to be requesting both greater flexibility (for useful mag/stam hybrid builds) and at the same time reduced flexibility (fixed class system where you don't even get to choose your weapons).
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NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems we think alike to some degree
I will say I’m not pro strict classes like those other games but this game should have not had any classes at all. That was a HUGE mistake.
And spell crafting as mentioned long ago at QuakeCon should’ve been at launch the spell/skill system absent if any classes but aligned with the NPC guildsEdited by NewBlacksmurf on March 28, 2018 10:35PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
...you just described my Kes.wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage...
Yeah, my tertiary character is just that - stendarr-praying orc girl in heavy armor, wielding a big hammer, casting heals and the occasional holy spells, but mostly just bashing things.
Not the most effective character, granted, not in the least through her slightly hybrid buiold setup that may not be the best chopice for ESO at this time (please bring back softcaps, make hybrids great again); she doesn't have the burst damage to be competing with the current "all in stamina/magica" DPS meta, and neither the full survivablity to be a dedicated tank, but is somewhere in between... but good enough to get through all the basic content, able to do backup tanking for a spell if the main tank needs a little breather (or rez) and fun to play in a "slow but steady" kind of way. Heh, she was the first character I managed to solo a public dungeon with, back in the day... and I even won a PvP engagement or two with her while grabbing the cyrodil skyshards (one against a would-be ganking nightblade)
So, it can be done, and well enough to have fun. Maybe not to make any leaderboards of make PUGs happy by carrying others, but it works.
I would have liked a classless system. Many would have.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I will say I’m not pro strict classes like those other games but this game should have not had any classes at all...
But you know how it is... Ship, sailed, sunk, long time.
I can have fun with what we have... not all of my characters may be the most effective combinations, but I enjoy playing them nonetheless. Once you get over the "I gotta be the -best-!" notion and just enjoy the game... your eyes open to a lot more varietee! Then you start picking ineffective setups with a "I wonder how well I can make -this- work" idea, and have fun fighting with a bit of a handicap at times!2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He makes a good point.
In reality your class decides like only half your slots at most
In PvE, especially Stam characters, they are identical with maybe 1 or 2 skills differing
There are just so many wasted abilities.
Almost all of the mages guild see little play, almost all of the fighters guild sees little play
WTF is with like 90% of PvP class lines? Like 2 Stam abilities and MAYBE 1 Mag is used.
Vampires have 2 abilities...
WW is practically a separate build and not skill line
Sorc pet line blows for diversity - meaning the class blows for diversity when 30% of it's abilities are all or nothing
Templar has been neutered to similar blandness
The DW and 2H line have wasted abilities that never see day light - same with resto
Bow is very lackluster compared to all games in all of game history that have bows
For such an "open" game, I feel extremely pigeon holed7 -
dannymcgr81b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Kinda the same with me. I love the exploration and interesting quests but I really don't like the classes at all. I do like Kanar said. Find the one I dislike the least and just try to enjoy the world.3 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »I purchased ESO at release, and I have played it quite a bit both on PC and PS4 (several hundred hours each). But every time I put the game down for a while, it's always for the same reason: I really hate the class design and mechanics.
One of the major advantages of a fixed class/spec system like WoW or even SWTOR compared to ESO is that it is much, much easier to play a particular class fantasy. Want to be a holy warrior who smites evil? Play a ret paladin - you'll get holy magic, physical damage, and heavy armor. But you seemingly can't do this in ESO and actually be successful. The design meta means that if you want to do physical dps, you have to wear medium armor. What kind of paladin fantasy - tank or damage - imagines running around in the same armor as a rogue?
Also, the fact that weapons are designed independently of class means that despite having a theoretical "free-form" skill system with infinite diversity, people actually end up more same-y than in games with fixed classes. A Ret Paladin in wow has completely different melee attacks than a Frost or Unholy Death Knight even though they are using the exact same weapon (a two-hander). They feel very, very different to play. The same is true for basically any other pairing: enhancement shaman and rogues are nothing alike even though both dual-wield. But in this game, everyone basically uses the same weapon skills, guild skills, and armor skills with the only difference being a few passives and a couple class skills. Isn't that incredibly boring? Doesn't that need a total redesign?
Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.
I don’t know, who decides what the criteria for a holy paladin or a shaman really are? D&D? WoW?
Does a holy paladin really have to wear heavy armor? Why not call an effective melee fighter with glowing yellow healing magic a paladin regardless of the armor?
It’s what you do with the character that defines it, not the equipment on the character.2 -
Sporvan✭✭✭✭✭Agreed, the class design is the weak point of ESO. It needs a complete overhaul.
You basically end up playing the same skills on every class replacing a buff here or there. It all feels so generic at the endgame to get high dps.
I love the game, love the lore and graphics but man if there's one thing I'd redo it's the entire skill / attribute / weapon system.
The game simply doesn't have diversity and what really feels lacking is CREATIVITY with skill design. Not just another way to do X damage.5 -
Arobain✭✭✭✭That's where you are all wrong, get out of the toxic cloud of the meta, and get to theorycrafting. Every single one of my builds are of my own idea, sure the build may already be somewhere online, but I don't look online, and I don't listen to other's spout their meta BS at me. The outcome? All my builds are ones that I enjoy and because I spend so much time making my own builds, I know what to look for and I know what is needed, because of that, all of my builds work
My advice stop listening to meta tards that tell you that you can only be competitive with a meta build of certain ***, it simply isn't true3 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree they tried to reinvent the wheel and failed miserably. Actually they tried to pull from TES to much. This system is fine for SP games, but terrible for MMOs. MMOs need a lot of ability to replay content on different characters and make it feel different. The character system is very bland and honestly the TES series started to get bland after morrowind with character development. It peaked here where all roads lead to the same end game character with a different costume.
Add to this no endgame movement and no gear progression and its like running on a treadmill. You keep going but you never get anywhere just more tired.0 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Biggest turn off lame skills lame morphs limited number of skills lack of off the grid spells and skills that arent class or weapon dependant we need crap like a destruction conjuration restoration alteration skill lines that arent tied to weapons or classes and heavy armor and sword and shield need a buff to be low end dps viable like can hit hard enough to kill but not beat full dps medium1 -
Bam_Bam✭✭✭✭✭
✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »hey, it's fine
don't like it, don't play it.
Have to agree. Sounds like the game just isn't suited for the OP.Joined January 2014
PC EU - PvE & BGs & PvP (Vivec)
Grand Master Crafter
#DiscordHypeSquad
Stream
Lims Kragm'a
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Bam_Bam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anotherone773 wrote: »I agree they tried to reinvent the wheel and failed miserably. Actually they tried to pull from TES to much. This system is fine for SP games, but terrible for MMOs. MMOs need a lot of ability to replay content on different characters and make it feel different. The character system is very bland and honestly the TES series started to get bland after morrowind with character development. It peaked here where all roads lead to the same end game character with a different costume.
Add to this no endgame movement and no gear progression and its like running on a treadmill. You keep going but you never get anywhere just more tired.
Speak for yourself. I don't feel like that at all. I have my gripes with the game (who doesn't!) such as crown crates, performance. but i love the game very much and love creating ew characters. If you hate it so much and are that bored, why bother staying? Find something that you enjoy and move on.Joined January 2014
PC EU - PvE & BGs & PvP (Vivec)
Grand Master Crafter
#DiscordHypeSquad
Stream
Lims Kragm'a
Bam Bam Bara1 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »I agree they tried to reinvent the wheel and failed miserably. Actually they tried to pull from TES to much. This system is fine for SP games, but terrible for MMOs. MMOs need a lot of ability to replay content on different characters and make it feel different. The character system is very bland and honestly the TES series started to get bland after morrowind with character development. It peaked here where all roads lead to the same end game character with a different costume.
Add to this no endgame movement and no gear progression and its like running on a treadmill. You keep going but you never get anywhere just more tired.
Speak for yourself. I don't feel like that at all. I have my gripes with the game (who doesn't!) such as crown crates, performance. but i love the game very much and love creating ew characters. If you hate it so much and are that bored, why bother staying? Find something that you enjoy and move on.
You assumed a lot of things i didnt imply in my post.0 -
aedra✭✭✭I won't lie if they completely rehauled the class system I think I'd be OK with it. I don't really like how its set up either. I'd rather there be no classes at all and being able to mix and match *everything* I'm sure that would lead to so many balancing issues though.0
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ZiRM✭✭✭✭✭
✭If i'm not having fun doing something, I find something else and do that.Want to become Vampire? 5k @ZiRM in game.ESO Server Status. ( ^_^)o自自o(^_^ ) SkåL!!!!!3 -
IcyDeadPeople wrote: »wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please sell me on an effective paladin build in this game with the following archetypical guidelines: a 2h-handed weapon, heavy armor, some spot healing, some holy magic, and high physical damage. It doesn't have to be a top 1% build, but it should be effective in all content the game has to offer. Like, this isn't some crazy, off-the-wall class fantasy idea - it is a staple archetype of basically every fantasy game ever (even single player ES games!) and yet it does not seem to exist here.
In PVP there is a lot more flexibility for interesting builds and you can make this concept work. In PVE however, you are usually trying to reach certain level single target dps, so you are more limited in options. Maybe it could work for tank role if you give up on the "high physical damage" part.
I'm a bit confused because you seem to be requesting both greater flexibility (for useful mag/stam hybrid builds) and at the same time reduced flexibility (fixed class system where you don't even get to choose your weapons).
This is the paradox though: in a lot of ways the fixed class games are actually more flexible.
Just to use WoW because it is an easy example: there are 30 something specs with 6 healer specs, 6 tanks, and tons of DPS. Almost any class fantasy you can imagine from popular media is an option. Do some classes have similar abilities? Of course. But they are not exactly the same as they are in this game. Crusader Strike isn't the same as Slam, which isn't the same as Stormstrike or Obliterate. That difference really matters. Having different resources to draw from matters.
There's also the fact that archetypal abilities are simply baked into the class. Paladins and death knights and warriors get to wear heavy armor because it is an integral part of the class fantasy, not because it helps their dps with armor skills. Ret paladins can fire off decent spot heals despite stacking Strength because the ability scales on strength as part of an overall package.
Basically, by breaking things up into constituent parts (like armor having its own skills, and weapons having their own skills) they actually ended up making the game far more boring and homogeneous.
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The_Protagonist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »You're not wrong, in my opinion. Usually, when I put the game down for awhile, it because of one of two things: the classes are boring and too limited, or the lag drives me insane.
The weapon thing you mention is a major turn off for me as well. I hate staves, especially the way they're done in this game, but I also don't care much for the stamina classes because - if you've played one - you've played them all. And playing a magicka dps with anything other than a staff is extremely gimping your character.
One way to keep the damage magic and wield a 2 hander is create a skill line with a psionic sword. For a holy magic using paladin this could give us a new flavor in game play.1 -
_Salty_✭✭✭✭✭Try playing a Stamsorc if you think templar is messed up. You will love your options once you see how pigeon holed you are. Spell swords and battle mages exist in every Elderscrolls game except this one.Psn l---Salty---l
Patiently waiting to make a Stankcromancer.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think that class/weapon design is the problem. Lack of build diversity is. When every Magicka/Stamina build uses the same abilities throughout all classes you know something isn't working as intended.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -3 -
Twenty0zTsunami✭✭✭✭Drachenfier wrote: »You're not wrong, in my opinion. Usually, when I put the game down for awhile, it because of one of two things: the classes are boring and too limited, or the lag drives me insane.
The weapon thing you mention is a major turn off for me as well. I hate staves, especially the way they're done in this game, but I also don't care much for the stamina classes because - if you've played one - you've played them all. And playing a magicka dps with anything other than a staff is extremely gimping your character.
It's almost funny, in trying to make the classes less restrictive and mundane, they actually caused their viability to be hyper focused on a single aspect, which if you don't embrace, you're not going to succeed in the game.3 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are correct. The character system is ESO's weakest point, IMO, at least I've said so since beta. There is very little room to play basic staple RPG roles at a high level (for questing content basically everything "works").
Currently every stamina char plays like a rogue with DW/Bow, but this is largely due to the history of stamina in ESO as a whole, which always seemed like an afterthought. Hence most classes don't have distinct stamina abilities. Bow and DW also offer the best DoTs and defensive skill stamina chars can have, so this is largely a balancing issue between weapon skills and not so much class vs non-class skills.
Another major issue is that every DPS build applies damage the same way - keep up your DoTs, and then rotate through your spammables with light/heavy attack weaves. There is no other mode to deal damage in this game. Channels and cast time abilities for example are almost completely neglected.wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »Isn't that incredibly boring? Doesn't that need a total redesign?
Yes, but we all know it will never happen. They can barely manage to balance the skills we have once a year.
I think the most reasonable thing we can ask for to sharpen class identity and offer more viable staple RPG builds is to expand the class passives. Most of them suck, and don't offer much of a synergy with non-class skills. In some instances they do (Sorcerers benefit more from Lightning damage, for example), and these interactions need to be strengthened.
For example, you could have a passive that improves Nightblades' capability with bows in unique ways, a Templar passive that helps them when using heavy armor, or a Sorcerer passive that boosts their enchantments.
Ideally, they would introduce passive morphs for this, so you still have that extra bit of choice if you don't want to use say heavy armor as a Templar.
As for armor, I thought it was always a mistake to give different armor types offensive bonuses. Recovery bonuses, dodge and block cost reduction, those are the things you should base your choice of armor on. Not crit damage, penetration or the like.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1