Thoughts on Stam Sorc (PVP Focused)

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2018

I've always thought instead of Crystal Blast it would be nice if we could get Bound Weapons as an attack skill.

Sixty5 · March 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I've always thought instead of Crystal Blast it would be nice if we could get Bound Weapons as an attack skill.

Yeah, theissue with that sort of thing is that it doesn't really fit in with what the ability is.

Most abilities in the game have morphs that are pretty similar in function and form, and doing something completely different with it kinda breaks that.

Celestro · March 2018

@Chilly-McFreeze

Nah, it's not the heal. As I said, it's based off max Health, so a stamsorc wouldn't really be receiving any large benefit from that over Surge and/or Dark Deal. Anyway, maybe 'shouldn't' isn't quite the word, as its too strong. That and ultimately, I don't have a good argument against them having pets. Partly, it just fits the niche of summoner type characters bringing forth creatures to fight with and often times dish out damage based off their magic scaling stat. There's the ults, but those have unique scaling based off whichever maxed stats. Another part ties into stamsorcs being largely fine as they are and simply could use some small changes here and there that barely merits as a buff. Being able to use a pet to such an extent seems like it'd be loading too much into them really. I dunno. I would absolutely love to use a pet as stam, outside of warden (which kind of doesn't quite fit how I would like) but I just don't feel like the chance of that happening is too likely.

Sixty5 · March 2018

Celestro wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze

Nah, it's not the heal. As I said, it's based off max Health, so a stamsorc wouldn't really be receiving any large benefit from that over Surge and/or Dark Deal. Anyway, maybe 'shouldn't' isn't quite the word, as its too strong. That and ultimately, I don't have a good argument against them having pets. Partly, it just fits the niche of summoner type characters bringing forth creatures to fight with and often times dish out damage based off their magic scaling stat. There's the ults, but those have unique scaling based off whichever maxed stats. Another part ties into stamsorcs being largely fine as they are and simply could use some small changes here and there that barely merits as a buff. Being able to use a pet to such an extent seems like it'd be loading too much into them really. I dunno. I would absolutely love to use a pet as stam, outside of warden (which kind of doesn't quite fit how I would like) but I just don't feel like the chance of that happening is too likely.

I honestly can't really see the current Sorc pets being much use on Stam Sorc.

Neither of the two provide any interesting form of debuffs, and beyond having the Twilight's heal scale with Stam, which just makes it an instant Vigor that costs 2 bar slots, there isn't much they can do in their base form.

About th closest you can get is running some sort of health based Sorc tank that makes good use of Implosion scaling and th heal on Clanfear.

Celestro · March 2018

I mean, per Chilly's suggestion to allowing the clannfear's damage to scale off max Stamina/weapon damage, they would be a lot more useful than currently. I was just saying I couldn't see that change happening is all. Speaking of the twilight, the one that boosts its damage against targets with Health above 50% of their max could be a possible candidate for a change. Don't see that one used very much at all. Changing from a twilight to a ogrim or spider daedra or something else would be pretty cool too.

Skander · March 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Everything with shuffle on it's fine in pvp

Then slot it on your mag toons and quit whining all over the forums.

@Celestro
Can you explain why a stamsorc shouldn't have a pet? Is it bc of the heal? Just trying to understand your reasons.
Also in 3, in no cp pvp I've already got issues sustaining my mag pool. Streak, surge and an occassional dark deal empty that 11-14k pretty fast. So I don't know if it would be a good idea to stress the off resource even more.

Lol no. Slotting nshuffle on a mag toon is a death sentence, lol. People did this tho, when it wasn't sticked to 5 pieces of medium. Just becouse it's unbelivably broken

jeskah · March 2018

As goods any nerf sorc thread... sorry

Anyway, as for the idea about the snare removal/immunity... i dont really feel the need for it. Granted im not a PVP god -far from it - but snare-wise the fieldis leveled IMHO: everyone is snared to the ground, with a gap closer i am usually fine.Okay, glass cannon-fine,but fine.

What im in serious need is place on my skillbars tough..

As per PVE palance, you are right, we are fine. Could be better, could be worse, but nobody laughs out a stamsorc from a raid - so i can live with it.

Lack of options... hell yeah! Even in PVE - well, in PVP i use more sorcerer abilities than in PVE.
A class spammable skill... one can only dream.

As per implosion... yeah. At first, it was fun -*** and giggles - but after a few years its more of an annoyance both for the receiver and for the sorc: single tick of hurricane and you gone and on the other hand, even if you have dotted up the *** for good, its still unreliable.

Now, for the suggestions:

Snare removal for the streak would be... logical? You teleport away, you became mobile. But imho not worth the backlash on the forums.

Implosion: i have no idea. decrease damage, increase proc chance by idunno,crit chance? Tie it to sorcerer abilities only? (In that case, more stamina skills are needed...)

Atro as a stamina ulti... well, already good, but all of my tanks are hating me for it with a passion. Lets think out of the box: stamina morph for overload!
(Yes, i love overload since beta. And im crushed by the current state of it.)

Crystal whatever stamina morph is something the sorcerers begging for since the old times. I lost hope

(But should they make it, please, dont make it a cast time skill...)
(And the 8% heal and the minor prophecy not that big an issue imho.)

Bound armaments: i could not come to terms with it. Double-barring this skill always makes me cry a little.
And for two slots, the effects are rather lacklustre IMHO - but we have no alternative.

Some other thoughts:

Surge healing got nerfed because of PVP mostly and in the current state, its.. well, could be buffed IMHO.

Dark deal cast time i feel unnecessary. Should it be instant (and f.e. Dot-based) would not end the world.
(or increase the stat return. or whatever)

Maulkin · March 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then slot it on your mag toons and quit whining all over the forums.

How does one slot Shuffle on a build that has either 5 light or 5 heavy pieces?

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then slot it on your mag toons and quit whining all over the forums.

How does one slot Shuffle on a build that has either 5 light or 5 heavy pieces?

Well obviously if stamina characters can wear heavy armor with no drawbacks, magicka characters should be able to wear medium with no drawbacks. /sarcasm

Chilly-McFreeze · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Then slot it on your mag toons and quit whining all over the forums.

How does one slot Shuffle on a build that has either 5 light or 5 heavy pieces?

I take that as a joke but in case it went over my head: if he thinks shuffle is the go to skill that makes every build overperforming, he should sacrifice a few armor pieces for that.

Sawzallz · March 2018

Surge is my only healing it's actually strong in pve while in pvp it's useless since crit chance is halfed

Aznox · March 2018

Sawzallz wrote: »

Surge is my only healing it's actually strong in pve while in pvp it's useless since crit chance is halfed

Not surprising you think Stamsorc needs a buff if you don't even know how pvp works ... were did you get this this crazy wrong fact ?

BaylorCorvette · March 2018

I've been running my StamSorc for a little over two years now. Mostly in PvP, but also a fair amount of PvE as well. I also have a StamBlade, Stamplar, MagDen & StamDen.

I agree that StamSorc seems to be in a good place for PvE.

However in terms of PvP, the class IMO is pigeonholed due to its lack of stamina morphed damaging abilities into running a Dizzying Swing / Wrecking Blow build or a Bleed Build. I started off running the Dizzying Swing build, but for me personally I didn't like the flow of the combat and unreliable landing of the hit. Also now with the weapon/bar swap animation bug a lot of times Dizzying Swing isn't even telegraphed, I'll hit the ability and it doesn't look like anything is happening and then 1 second later it lands the hit, or tires to.

As a result of those issues I've been running a Bleed Build and have found it to be extremely successful on the StamSorc, particularly for two reasons. The first, using Crit Surge and having a lot of bleeds ticking (along with hurricane) you're constantly getting heals going off. You pair that with Vigor and I feel that StamSorc has excellent sustained healing. The problem I initially had is learning to play based on sustained healing and not a burst heal. When you get used to that play style (and not playing like you've got a burst heal in your pocket) I found I had very little survivability issues. The second thing is Implosion. Yes it is (usually) unreliable for a StamSorc, however running a Bleed Build + Hurricane, Implosion prcos a decent amount for me.

I agree with your assessment that if Bleed Builds do get nerfted at some point that would also have an effect StamSorc, as you stated already, due to a lack of class spammable you have to rely on weapon skills.

In today's version of ESO though, I don't know that StamSorc needs anything specifically. My opinion is that if they add some sort of snare removal to streak, it would help with build diversity. A StamSorc cannot spam streak anyways, so you still have to be mindful of when you use it. However, by adding this to the StamSorc's toolkit you're opening up build diversity for the class. When you look at class identity based on abilities and passives, DK's are steered towards being tanky / block builds, Templar's are steered towards healing, cleansing, support, Nightblade's are steered towards stealth, gank, hit and run builds and Wardens (stamina) are a jack of all trades build. StamSorcs real strength is their mobility. So giving streak the ability to cleanse snares and be immune (for a short time) seems like a logical thing to me.

Sixty5 · March 2018

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I've been running my StamSorc for a little over two years now. Mostly in PvP, but also a fair amount of PvE as well. I also have a StamBlade, Stamplar, MagDen & StamDen.

I agree that StamSorc seems to be in a good place for PvE.

However in terms of PvP, the class IMO is pigeonholed due to its lack of stamina morphed damaging abilities into running a Dizzying Swing / Wrecking Blow build or a Bleed Build. I started off running the Dizzying Swing build, but for me personally I didn't like the flow of the combat and unreliable landing of the hit. Also now with the weapon/bar swap animation bug a lot of times Dizzying Swing isn't even telegraphed, I'll hit the ability and it doesn't look like anything is happening and then 1 second later it lands the hit, or tires to.

As a result of those issues I've been running a Bleed Build and have found it to be extremely successful on the StamSorc, particularly for two reasons. The first, using Crit Surge and having a lot of bleeds ticking (along with hurricane) you're constantly getting heals going off. You pair that with Vigor and I feel that StamSorc has excellent sustained healing. The problem I initially had is learning to play based on sustained healing and not a burst heal. When you get used to that play style (and not playing like you've got a burst heal in your pocket) I found I had very little survivability issues. The second thing is Implosion. Yes it is (usually) unreliable for a StamSorc, however running a Bleed Build + Hurricane, Implosion prcos a decent amount for me.

I agree with your assessment that if Bleed Builds do get nerfted at some point that would also have an effect StamSorc, as you stated already, due to a lack of class spammable you have to rely on weapon skills.

In today's version of ESO though, I don't know that StamSorc needs anything specifically. My opinion is that if they add some sort of snare removal to streak, it would help with build diversity. A StamSorc cannot spam streak anyways, so you still have to be mindful of when you use it. However, by adding this to the StamSorc's toolkit you're opening up build diversity for the class. When you look at class identity based on abilities and passives, DK's are steered towards being tanky / block builds, Templar's are steered towards healing, cleansing, support, Nightblade's are steered towards stealth, gank, hit and run builds and Wardens (stamina) are a jack of all trades build. StamSorcs real strength is their mobility. So giving streak the ability to cleanse snares and be immune (for a short time) seems like a logical thing to me.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of the Dizzy playstyle myself, that skill is just a massive pain in the ass to connect vs a good player.
The bleed approach I ran a lot last patch in CP battlegrounds, just because it felt like the only way I could actually get through some of the tankier opponents I was facing. Now on the other hand, I just find it to feel dumb with how strong they are vs certain targets.

And adding something else to Stam Sorc mobility would be nice, especially when everyone else is also getting more and more mobile, and snares are becoming ever more prevalent.

I'd take the snare removal over a cheap spammable Streak/Ball of Lightning, simply because I feel that it is the more balanced option for the class as a whole. Giving Mag Sorcs the ability to dash infinitely would be a bit much IMO.
So snare and immobilise removal on Bolt Escape seems like the best option.

Sawzallz · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Sawzallz wrote: »

Surge is my only healing it's actually strong in pve while in pvp it's useless since crit chance is halfed

Not surprising you think Stamsorc needs a buff if you don't even know how pvp works ... were did you get this this crazy wrong fact ?

First i didn't ask for a buff second in battlegrounds my crit goes form 40% to 20%

Chilly-McFreeze · March 2018

Sawzallz wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Sawzallz wrote: »

Surge is my only healing it's actually strong in pve while in pvp it's useless since crit chance is halfed

Not surprising you think Stamsorc needs a buff if you don't even know how pvp works ... were did you get this this crazy wrong fact ?

First i didn't ask for a buff second in battlegrounds my crit goes form 40% to 20%

It may go from 32% to 20%, or from 40% to 28%. That's because of the 30CP passives that grants you 12% crit (Spell Precision or Perfect Strike).
E: in case you still don't understand: Battlegrounds are without CP, therefore you won't get those 12% granted.

Sawzallz · March 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sawzallz wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Sawzallz wrote: »

Surge is my only healing it's actually strong in pve while in pvp it's useless since crit chance is halfed

Not surprising you think Stamsorc needs a buff if you don't even know how pvp works ... were did you get this this crazy wrong fact ?

First i didn't ask for a buff second in battlegrounds my crit goes form 40% to 20%

It may go from 32% to 20%, or from 40% to 28%. That's because of the 30CP passives that grants you 12% crit (Spell Precision or Perfect Strike).
E: in case you still don't understand: Battlegrounds are without CP, therefore you won't get those 12% granted.

Thanks for helpful information

Vapirko · April 2018

Here’s what I’d like to see for the bound armaments change. Since it’s no longer a constant, make it function like the wardens netch and let it offer a small amount of stam regen while sprinting. Don’t care too much about the light and heavy attack damage boost tbh, but extra stam, stam regen, and minor ward or whatever would be solid as a buff. Might sound like a lot but I think it would be more than fair since were unlikely to see other buffs to Stam Sorc. It would play very well into the speed style of gameplay that Stam Sorc requires.

Sixty5 · April 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Here’s what I’d like to see for the bound armaments change. Since it’s no longer a constant, make it function like the wardens netch and let it offer a small amount of stam regen while sprinting. Don’t care too much about the light and heavy attack damage boost tbh, but extra stam, stam regen, and minor ward or whatever would be solid as a buff. Might sound like a lot but I think it would be more than fair since were unlikely to see other buffs to Stam Sorc. It would play very well into the speed style of gameplay that Stam Sorc requires.

I can agree with that, especially given that both morphs of Bound Armour are just going to give extra block mitigation on activation, which is pretty lame.

I don't think that you'd want to completely impinge on what one of the Warden's abilities do, but there are definitely some better option as to what the skill can do.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

I don't feel like stamsorcs are weak, but at the same time I'm playing the literal weakest PvP spec.(argueably second if you want to play a damage dealer solo magden or something like that lol) So in that sense I might be really exaggerating it, but stamsorcs really don't feel weak at all. Especially with the recent changes to dark deal, they just became very slippery, you have to chase them non-stop or they can always reset the fight infinite times. I think stamsorcs do need some buffs, but this unstoppable dark deal spam needs to go if thats going to happen.

With that being said I feel like stamsorcs and stamDks did not get enough attention with the new class balance changes. I will be waiting for the summerset PTS notes to decide pre-ordering it or not, but I have my hopes set very low.

Sixty5 · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I don't feel like stamsorcs are weak, but at the same time I'm playing the literal weakest PvP spec.(argueably second if you want to play a damage dealer solo magden or something like that lol) So in that sense I might be really exaggerating it, but stamsorcs really don't feel weak at all. Especially with the recent changes to dark deal, they just became very slippery, you have to chase them non-stop or they can always reset the fight infinite times. I think stamsorcs do need some buffs, but this unstoppable dark deal spam needs to go if thats going to happen.

With that being said I feel like stamsorcs and stamDks did not get enough attention with the new class balance changes. I will be waiting for the summerset PTS notes to decide pre-ordering it or not, but I have my hopes set very low.

Yeah, waiting on the PTS notes is probably the best bet.

But Stam DK and Stam Sorc kinda suffer from a lot of the same issues in PVP. A lack of offensive offensive class skills, and a reliance on generic defensive skills.
Stam Sorc does have mobility and sustain over DK, but DK has more innate durability and an offensive ultimate.

Wings getting snare removal is a step in the right direction for DK, but it still needs an immunity period, and I still also think that Bolt Escape could do with getting the same treatment as well.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I don't feel like stamsorcs are weak, but at the same time I'm playing the literal weakest PvP spec.(argueably second if you want to play a damage dealer solo magden or something like that lol) So in that sense I might be really exaggerating it, but stamsorcs really don't feel weak at all. Especially with the recent changes to dark deal, they just became very slippery, you have to chase them non-stop or they can always reset the fight infinite times. I think stamsorcs do need some buffs, but this unstoppable dark deal spam needs to go if thats going to happen.

With that being said I feel like stamsorcs and stamDks did not get enough attention with the new class balance changes. I will be waiting for the summerset PTS notes to decide pre-ordering it or not, but I have my hopes set very low.

Yeah, waiting on the PTS notes is probably the best bet.

But Stam DK and Stam Sorc kinda suffer from a lot of the same issues in PVP. A lack of offensive offensive class skills, and a reliance on generic defensive skills.
Stam Sorc does have mobility and sustain over DK, but DK has more innate durability and an offensive ultimate.

Wings getting snare removal is a step in the right direction for DK, but it still needs an immunity period, and I still also think that Bolt Escape could do with getting the same treatment as well.

To be honest this is it for me. Now that they made summerset a must have because of new skill line and jewelrycrafting, they forced me and pretty much every competitive player into buying it or just leaving the game. Most will just buy the expansion and be done with it, but I refuse to pay for a failed patch. So they better do some fair balancing or I'm basically out forever. I just wished that they released the patch notes sooner so I wouldn't have to wait for so long.