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Thoughts on Stam Sorc (PVP Focused)

Sixty5
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Stam Sorc is a pretty interesting class in that they tend to be perceived as doing better than they actually are. Now there are a lot of reasons for this, beginning with their historic strength, the fact that they are a natural nightblade counter, their strength in no-cp, and the cheese that is implosion.
However, currently the class has a number of pain points that make it feel worse to play, and outside of no-CP battlegrounds as an answer to Stamblades, there really isn’t much reason to pick a Stam Sorc over something like a Stamden, which will do everything, but better, with more group utility.
So I thought I’d weigh in with my thoughts and ideas on the matter, as based on playing pretty much nothing but Stam Sorc since Morrowind dropped.


The Issues:

Firstly, the meta.
I know that sounds like a silly point to make. But hear me out. As a Stamina character, you need to run some form of snare removal. This means that you either need to give up Rally, or Heavy Armour. So why is this a problem on a Stam Sorc? Firstly Sorc is the only class in the game without a natural way to boost healing, leaving them with the weakest Vigor in the game. This on its own isn’t terrible, and can be compensated for, but with how stupidly strong Befoul is currently, any form of Defile is going to ruin your day. This in turn makes the previously mentioned choice tricky. Do you either give up a lot of in combat durability (Something else that the class innately lacks), but keep your burst heal, or do you keep the heal and play something squishier? Basically, you are dealing with a lose/lose situation the second you pick your gear.

Secondly, PVE balance.
Stam Sorc is in a good place in PVE right now. They aren’t the best class in the game DPS wise, but they aren’t far behind either. This makes it hard to buff the class for PVP without pushing them over the edge elsewhere. Honestly this shouldn’t be too hard to get around, given that the class mostly wants utility buffs over more raw damage anyway, and most of that sort of thing is ignored in PVE for more DPS anyway.

Thirdly, lack of options.
Stam Sorc has a grand total of three stamina abilities, two buffs and a sustain tool. And while the class does have access to some utility tools in its magicka abilities, the same is true for other classes as well. The class is the only one in the game that is almost entirely reliant on weapon abilities in order to deal damage. This in turn means that while something like bleeds make the class seem strong, the minute bleeds get hit with a nerf bat, the class has nothing to fall back on.

Fourth, Implosion.
This gets its own point, because this passive is honestly one of the worst parts about the class. An RNG instakill to low health targets eats up a massive portion of the classes power budget, and honestly isn’t fun for anyone.
Getting tagged by a single tick of Hurricane at 14% health and dying feels like a load of BS, and likewise keeping someone at 10% health for 20 seconds whilst everything is ticking on them and not getting a single proc feels like rubbish on the giving end. Hell, even winning a fight off of a lucky proc feels bad, because it cheapens the victory.
While this passive exists in its current state, the class will never be in a healthy position.


What Stam Sorc needs:

Honestly? Nothing. The class is in a great place in PVE and they are functional in PVP. However a lot of their functionality in both stems from the state of weapon abilities. Bleeds for instance are doing a lot to help out the class. The physical damage scaling and implosion passives give Stam Sorc the nastiest bleeds in the game.
However should Bleeds get nerfed (not unlikely given their current state) then you are kicking a crutch out from the class and you’ll see it drop further down the rankings.

To help prevent these future issues, it might be a good idea to give the class a bit of what it wants.


What Stam Sorc wants:

First of all, class based snare/immobilisation removal.
The class is meant to fit the archetype of a mobile warrior, but that is pretty heavily hampered by all the snares and roots that currently exist in the game.
Personally, I’d add this to either Ball of Lightning or to the base skill. The scaling cost should help keep the mobility it would offered somewhat in check, and it currently makes no sense that talons would still be latched onto you after teleporting away.

Second would be a change to Implosion.
This passive is on of the reasons that you pick the class, but it is also one of the things that make it frustrating to play as and against. Getting insta-killed because you took a tick of hurricane at 15% health and the Stam Sorc player got lucky doesn’t feel good. Likewise never getting the proc on a low health target just feel bad.
My suggestion would be to heavily cut the damage of the proc, increase the proc chance, give it a per target cooldown, and have it able to activate at any HP value, with increased damage to low health targets.
A base idea of the numbers I’ve been playing with.
Damage => 10% of current damage
Cooldown => 10 seconds per target
Proc Chance => 25% on physical/lightning
Execute => Double damage to targets below 15% hp

Of course these numbers would need to be tweaked in order to keep the passive in a balanced state
Stam Sorc lacks the same oomph to a burst combo that other classes have, this is made up for somewhat by passive damage increases and the random execute on Implosion. Making the passive more reliable makes it something that can be played around by both parties. The Stam Sorc player can time their burst around an implosion proc to take advantage of the extra damage for an execute, and the other player doesn’t have to deal with a 6% chance to instantly die.

Third is additional class Stamina abilities.
First of all Sorc is the only class in the game that does not have a physical damage ultimate morph, so one of those would be nice. A morph of Atronach for instance, after all the Air Atronach model exists in the game already.
Secondly some form of offensive ability would be nice. The most common suggestion is dropping the trash heap known as crystal blast, and changing the skill to a stam morph where you slap an opponent with a dark magic encased fist.
I’d say that this sort of skill would need to be more along the lines of Wrecking Blow than Surprise Attack, just to keep thing balanced with the passives in that skill line, along with keeping the class in check PVE wise.

Finally is a Bound Armaments change.
This is last on my list, mostly because I have come to terms with the skill. The three changes above would do much more for the class in terms of quality of play than any changes here, but I will still list it because it is important.
Not having to double bar the skill, and having it do something more interesting than a passive buff or two would definitely be much appreciated.
Honestly, you could do just about anything along those lines and have things be an improvement over what the skill is now.


Final Thoughts:

Honestly, that’s just about all I really have to say on the matter. I could go more into depth on what I’d like some of the changes to be, but often that just devolves into arguing semantics that are better left to the balance team at ZOS (haha). Regardless, I don’t think that the class really needs much more to be in a much better place. Innate snare and immobilisation removal would go a long way towards making the class feel more mobile again, and making Implosion into a more fair passive that both parties can play around removes a lot of cheese kills, and adds more of a skill cap to the class.
If you have any questions comments or criticisms about anything I have written here, I’d encourage you to leave a comment so we can get a good discussion going here.

Tl;Dr
Class wants some love because of weakness outside of fairly narrow niche, and reliance on outside factors

Buff:
Snare removal on bolt escape

Rework:
Stam Atro or Crystal blast pls
Implosion damage reduced, proc chance up, add a cooldown

Other:
Do something with Bound Armaments to make it interesting
Edited by Sixty5 on March 26, 2018 6:58AM
Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Morgul667
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    Nice ideas as usual ,

    Stamsorc could use some love for sure. They are only seen in BG due to being NB counter + synergize well with bleeds (which I start to dislike more and more)

    They are lower tier for most other things

    The idea to boost its mobility /snare removal is nice and seems appropriate for the class
  • _Salty_
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    Id be happy if they made curse scale of your highest stat. Providing a stamina burst option.
    Psn l---Salty---l

    Patiently waiting to make a Stankcromancer.
  • Sixty5
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    _Salty_ wrote: »
    Id be happy if they made curse scale of your highest stat. Providing a stamina burst option.

    That would be a tad much I think.

    I mean curse is free unavoidable damage. If you compare curse to say Power of the Light (closest comparison) you see that POTL requires the person using it to stack it up first in order to get the damage out.

    Curse works on Mag Sorc in a more balanced way, just because they don't have a lot of strong options to combo it with (Basically they rely wholely on curse, wrath, frag combos to burst people). On a Stam Sorc, as soon as you curse someone you'd only need to hit a Dizzying Swing to confirm the kill.

    Other burst tools like Subterranean assault are balanced around the fact that they are avoidable.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • GeorgeBlack
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    I would trade my igneous shield for critical surge.
  • Sixty5
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    I would trade my igneous shield for critical surge.

    You can have it.

    That ability hasn't really been worth slotting on anything other than an overload bar for a long time.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Vapirko
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    _Salty_ wrote: »
    Id be happy if they made curse scale of your highest stat. Providing a stamina burst option.

    That would be a tad much I think.

    I mean curse is free unavoidable damage. If you compare curse to say Power of the Light (closest comparison) you see that POTL requires the person using it to stack it up first in order to get the damage out.

    Curse works on Mag Sorc in a more balanced way, just because they don't have a lot of strong options to combo it with (Basically they rely wholely on curse, wrath, frag combos to burst people). On a Stam Sorc, as soon as you curse someone you'd only need to hit a Dizzying Swing to confirm the kill.

    Other burst tools like Subterranean assault are balanced around the fact that they are avoidable.

    Some sort of telegraphed, conical blast of lightning would be badass. But then we’d just be windy wardens.
  • Sixty5
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    _Salty_ wrote: »
    Id be happy if they made curse scale of your highest stat. Providing a stamina burst option.

    That would be a tad much I think.

    I mean curse is free unavoidable damage. If you compare curse to say Power of the Light (closest comparison) you see that POTL requires the person using it to stack it up first in order to get the damage out.

    Curse works on Mag Sorc in a more balanced way, just because they don't have a lot of strong options to combo it with (Basically they rely wholely on curse, wrath, frag combos to burst people). On a Stam Sorc, as soon as you curse someone you'd only need to hit a Dizzying Swing to confirm the kill.

    Other burst tools like Subterranean assault are balanced around the fact that they are avoidable.

    Some sort of telegraphed, conical blast of lightning would be badass. But then we’d just be windy wardens.

    Indeed, and that is also why I don't really feel like Stam Sorc needs a delayed burst ability, just because it moves into the territory of those other classes.

    I'd rather have something like a melee version of Crystal Shard, as a substitute for Dizzying Swing that will actually add a bit more flavour to the class.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • kadar
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    Stam Atro is already a thing. It scales with strongest stat. A buddy was using it on me in duels.

    And as far as healing, Dark Deal adds alot. +crit surge and vigor and it's a fair bit.
    Edited by kadar on March 26, 2018 6:47AM
  • Sixty5
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    Stam Atro is already a thing. It scales with strongest stat. A buddy was using it on me in duels.

    And as far as healing, Dark Deal adds alot. +crit surge and vigor and it's a fair bit.

    Sure, atro scales with highest stats, but it would be nice to have a physical version of it in order to scale with things like CP or sets like Automaton.

    And as to healing, I'm not advocating for healing buffs, I'd just rather not have the mobile fight class gimped by a tradeoff needed to retain that mobility.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • kadar
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    Stam Atro is already a thing. It scales with strongest stat. A buddy was using it on me in duels.

    And as far as healing, Dark Deal adds alot. +crit surge and vigor and it's a fair bit.

    Sure, atro scales with highest stats, but it would be nice to have a physical version of it in order to scale with things like CP or sets like Automaton.

    And as to healing, I'm not advocating for healing buffs, I'd just rather not have the mobile fight class gimped by a tradeoff needed to retain that mobility.
    Ah, right it still does magick (shock?) damage.

    I will say that even without CP scaling, the atro is no joke on stam 1v1. It adds a lot of pressure and synergizes well with dot/bleed pressure.
  • Sixty5
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    Stam Atro is already a thing. It scales with strongest stat. A buddy was using it on me in duels.

    And as far as healing, Dark Deal adds alot. +crit surge and vigor and it's a fair bit.

    Sure, atro scales with highest stats, but it would be nice to have a physical version of it in order to scale with things like CP or sets like Automaton.

    And as to healing, I'm not advocating for healing buffs, I'd just rather not have the mobile fight class gimped by a tradeoff needed to retain that mobility.
    Ah, right it still does magick (shock?) damage.

    I will say that even without CP scaling, the atro is no joke on stam 1v1. It adds a lot of pressure and synergizes well with dot/bleed pressure.

    The downside is that outside of 1v1/duels Atro isn't great as an ult, and Dawnbreaker is going to give you better bang for your buck.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Mojomonkeyman
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    I disagree with "Issues 1)" and therefore, partly, the "what stamsorcs want" part.

    And I dont share your opinion on surge, despite not being mentioned as in need of change. I find surge to be in the perfect spot: 2nd strongest healing source after vigor in any log, comfortable to sustain, still in need for supplementary heals (hence not overperforming).

    I am running my stamsorcs without any snare removal for eternities now and I dont miss it at all. Streak, speed pots and a gapcloser is all I need. And I do more than fine. Stamsorc and stamNB are the only stamsetups who can actually compensate for not relying on immo/snare removal.

    Totally agree on the bound armor part.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Sixty5
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    I disagree with "Issues 1)" and therefore, partly, the "what stamsorcs want" part.

    And I dont share your opinion on surge, despite not being mentioned as in need of change. I find surge to be in the perfect spot: 2nd strongest healing source after vigor in any log, comfortable to sustain, still in need for supplementary heals (hence not overperforming).

    I am running my stamsorcs without any snare removal for eternities now and I dont miss it at all. Streak, speed pots and a gapcloser is all I need. And I do more than fine. Stamsorc and stamNB are the only stamsetups who can actually compensate for not relying on immo/snare removal.

    Totally agree on the bound armor part.

    9 months ago, I would have agreed with you on the snare thing, but at the time I was running a setup that was pretty heavily invested in magicka with Shacklebreaker and such, and I had the mag pool to actually streak multiple times in a row.
    Now with running more defensive setups, I can't rely on being able to create that sort of distance, and I feel the importance of having access to some form of snare removal.
    But given the opportunity, I'd like to see snare/immobilise removal added to the skill in order to really emphasise the mobile aspect of the classes playstyle.

    As for Surge, it's not that I think the ability is weak per-say, it is more that it does pretty much the same thing as Rally (brutality + heals) but I just find the burst heal more worthwhile and I struggle to find space on front or back bar for Rally.
    Bow back bar, surge is the better choice for healing, since you can tag a couple of people with Poison injections, and just soak up the heals.

    I'd be curious to hear your position on Implosion though.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Ladislao
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    From myself, I have repeatedly said that stamsorcs don't need anything. You could see this in previous topics. They are very balanced, but their excessive flexibility makes them slightly higher than other classes.

    A much more interesting thing is the motive for creating similar topics. Each author claims the following:
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    What Stam Sorc needs:

    Honestly? Nothing. The class is in a great place in PVE and they are functional in PVP.

    But then what's the point of asking for a buff? Do you want balance, or that your favorite class is the strongest?
    Why try to repair something that is not broken? I could understand this if we had the perfect balance in the game. But... You know.

    To suggest ideas is good. If these ideas relate not to balance, but to the versatility of the class - this is doubly good. But stamsorc is the last class that needs it. Better help other classes that really need it :)
    Everything is viable
  • GeorgeBlack
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    Ye Im buffled as well...
    What happened to fixing stamDK stamplar?
    Edited by GeorgeBlack on March 26, 2018 10:35AM
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    I agree with most of the things you say but I'm quite split on the Implosion part. You said it yourself, Implosion is the powerhouse of stam sorcs. It's neither fair nor reliable but it's the best passive stam sorcs have. Changing it into a weaker Burning Light passive will arguably weaken stam sorcs, who aren't top tier to begin with. That's bc of many reasons.

    First and foremost the "on target" cooldown. That's a bad idea to begin with. Not that anyone does it anyway but it would limit the (pve) raid slots for stam sorcs to one. Why bring more when they hinder themselves? In the discussion about the lates flame lash changes people suggested that an "on target" cooldown would be better than the "on user" cooldown, an idea that was quickly dismissed as it not being fair for multiple Dk's being in the same fight. Like, why should yet another of my passives become useless just because there is someone with the same class as myself? Templar's Repentance comes to mind as well. Also bad design, people constantly criticize it, rightfully tho.

    Secondly the long cooldown. What you suggest is nothing but a slightly different Burning Light passive. While the Templar's passive is limited to a specific skill line, it's cooldown is only half a second. Mind that the class spam is in that line and can proc this passive two times in one skill usage. 10 seconds is kinda long and would hit PvE hard, as it's not only limited it's dps part through the cooldown but then again by the low dmg it does (10% of the current). Having the chance to proc it at a full health target doesn't make up for that. Implosion now is a game changer, then it's barely noticeable. I mean 10k dmg now or 1k every 10 sec then (read: 100 dps)? Neither it creates pressure nor burst, it's just a little tickle then. How many of your pvp fights last long enough to proc this passives multiple times? And those who do last long, would a 1k proc have any effect on the outcome? sS are not designed as a "stand your ground" class, the long cooldown directly contradicts that.

    Lasty the damage scaling. Burning Light at least scales with stamina and magicka, implosion solely scales with health. So lowering the dmg by 90% without changing how it scales will simply make this too weak. Especially when the proc dmg is mitigable.

    What could be done to make this a fair passive without killing it? Either exclude the cooldowns (both cds you suggested) entirely to create a weak pressure/ something like a DoT. sSorcs used to have that "don't go near them" flair through a high dmg hurricane. Since it got nerfed the only reason to fear hurricane (read: being close to a sS) is a possible Implosion proc.
    Let this scale with mag/stam. Gutting the dmg so hard is just too much when it only procs ever so often. Guess you wouldn't even notice it then. It doesn't have to scale well, just a bit to make up for the dmg lost.
    Or make this oblivion dmg. 1-2k dmg, mititgated by any means would result in what? Surely not the stepfather's backhand slap it is now. More like pinch in the kneepit.

    Tl;dr: 90% dmg loss without options to gain it back through regular means, 10 seconds cooldown and exclusion through other players with the same class would effectively kill this passive and rob stam sorcs biggest perk.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on March 26, 2018 10:40AM
  • GeorgeBlack
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    Stamplar is in the worst place possible
    StamDK is only SnB 2h
    (Bleed stamDK is instagib)

    Stamsorc can play with any weapon...
    You oppose improvements to stamDK and here you are asking for a "different tone" to a class that is viable.
    Edited by GeorgeBlack on March 26, 2018 10:41AM
  • Sixty5
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    Ladislao wrote: »
    From myself, I have repeatedly said that stamsorcs don't need anything. You could see this in previous topics. They are very balanced, but their excessive flexibility makes them slightly higher than other classes.

    A much more interesting thing is the motive for creating similar topics. Each author claims the following:
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    What Stam Sorc needs:

    Honestly? Nothing. The class is in a great place in PVE and they are functional in PVP.

    But then what's the point of asking for a buff? Do you want balance, or that your favorite class is the strongest?
    Why try to repair something that is not broken? I could understand this if we had the perfect balance in the game. But... You know.

    To suggest ideas is good. If these ideas relate not to balance, but to the versatility of the class - this is doubly good. But stamsorc is the last class that needs it. Better help other classes that really need it :)

    I'd point out that the "flexibility" stam sorc has is based entirely on the fact that they have no real base skills to work with.

    For instance Stam DK tends to stick to sword and board because it pairs well with their block passives.

    And I would disagree that the class doesn't need changes, given that Stam Warden is a better version of Stam Sorc in pretty much every respect, and the only thing really seperating yhe two is a blink and one of the most hated passives in the entire game.

    I'd much rather see Stam Sorc get a bit of love now, rather than spending 3 months waiting with the class in the dumpster if ZOS decide that Dawnbreaker and bleeds are overperforming.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Sixty5
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    Stamplar is in the worst place possible
    StamDK is only SnB 2h
    (Bleed stamDK is instagib)

    Stamsorc can play with any weapon...
    You oppose improvements to stamDK and here you are asking for a "different tone" to a class that is viable.

    At what point did I say DK shouldn't have changes?
    Additionally, in case you can't read a title, this is not a thread about class balance in general. It is about one class.
    If you want to talk about stam dk or stamplar then go start a thread of your own.
    I agree with most of the things you say but I'm quite split on the Implosion part. You said it yourself, Implosion is the powerhouse of stam sorcs. It's neither fair nor reliable but it's the best passive stam sorcs have. Changing it into a weaker Burning Light passive will arguably weaken stam sorcs, who aren't top tier to begin with. That's bc of many reasons.

    First and foremost the "on target" cooldown. That's a bad idea to begin with. Not that anyone does it anyway but it would limit the (pve) raid slots for stam sorcs to one. Why bring more when they hinder themselves? In the discussion about the lates flame lash changes people suggested that an "on target" cooldown would be better than the "on user" cooldown, an idea that was quickly dismissed as it not being fair for multiple Dk's being in the same fight. Like, why should yet another of my passives become useless just because there is someone with the same class as myself? Templar's Repentance comes to mind as well. Also bad design, people constantly criticize it, rightfully tho.

    Secondly the long cooldown. What you suggest is nothing but a slightly different Burning Light passive. While the Templar's passive is limited to a specific skill line, it's cooldown is only half a second. Mind that the class spam is in that line and can proc this passive two times in one skill usage. 10 seconds is kinda long and would hit PvE hard, as it's not only limited it's dps part through the cooldown but then again by the low dmg it does (10% of the current). Having the chance to proc it at a full health target doesn't make up for that. Implosion now is a game changer, then it's barely noticeable. I mean 10k dmg now or 1k every 10 sec then (read: 100 dps)? Neither it creates pressure nor burst, it's just a little tickle then. How many of your pvp fights last long enough to proc this passives multiple times? And those who do last long, would a 1k proc have any effect on the outcome? sS are not designed as a "stand your ground" class, the long cooldown directly contradicts that.

    Lasty the damage scaling. Burning Light at least scales with stamina and magicka, implosion solely scales with health. So lowering the dmg by 90% without changing how it scales will simply make this too weak. Especially when the proc dmg is mitigable.

    What could be done to make this a fair passive without killing it? Either exclude the cooldowns (both cds you suggested) entirely to create a weak pressure/ something like a DoT. sSorcs used to have that "don't go near them" flair through a high dmg hurricane. Since it got nerfed the only reason to fear hurricane (read: being close to a sS) is a possible Implosion proc.
    Let this scale with mag/stam. Gutting the dmg so hard is just too much when it only procs ever so often. Guess you wouldn't even notice it then. It doesn't have to scale well, just a bit to make up for the dmg lost.
    Or make this oblivion dmg. 1-2k dmg, mititgated by any means would result in what? Surely not the stepfather's backhand slap it is now. More like pinch in the kneepit.

    Tl;dr: 90% dmg loss without options to gain it back through regular means, 10 seconds cooldown and exclusion through other players with the same class would effectively kill this passive and rob stam sorcs biggest perk.

    Yeah, like I said, the numbers need work, and that sort of thing is why I tend to prefer to leave the values blank in order for the concept to ne discussed.

    I will say that I definitely didn't intend to have the changes come off as per target only, rather per user per target would be a better way of putting it.

    Also in regards to the actual damage numbers, after doing a bit of math they do look pretty weak (over a 200 second fight you'd get the equivalent of two procs in the current system)

    But the idea is basically to tone down the damage and make the proc more reliable.
    Something like 25% of current damage every 8-10 seconds with damage doubled against low (<15% hp) targets seems like a better starting point.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Stamplar is in the worst place possible
    StamDK is only SnB 2h
    (Bleed stamDK is instagib)

    Stamsorc can play with any weapon...
    You oppose improvements to stamDK and here you are asking for a "different tone" to a class that is viable.

    Thing is, there is in my opinion a few issues with stamsorc that justify both - attention and improvement:
    1) bound armor is a relic of the past, no other class is so limited in making the passives related work - a 2 bar toggle is not desirable anymore, its a burden, yet its a signature skill - it deserves a rework
    2) stamsorc lacks identity and therefore diversity - compared to other stamsetups, there is very little choice in how to set up, making more class skills viable is necessary (simple example: take away dawnbreaker and you kill the setup, there is nothing a stamsorc has, that could compensate for the loss of it - that's really bad design, we deserve not being completely reliant on non-class skills to even work)

    The so perceived current rise of stamsorcs roots in non-class related issues, i.e. BGs going no-CP - bleeds being absurdly powerful in no-CP - stamsorc being able to equip dw + x - and here we are.
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on March 26, 2018 11:07AM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Dragon leap is unreliable. We use DB
    Templar same.
    NB is ok
    Warden is a joke. No comment.

    How many times have I said Zos should improve the identity of the classes.

    If stamsorc, which can play with all weapons feels boring, how do the other SnB 2h classes feel.

    You would find more support if you wanted to point out the need for class identity buffs, not only a viable one.

    "Go start a DK thread"

    When was the last time that anything useful came out of a thread discussing 1 class?
    Only pop corn comment content.

    All classes need variety.
    All classes need access to better healing (move momentum to FG)
    All classes need to feel like you are playing a distinct class and not another generic:
    Execution, vigor, momentum, dawnbreaker stamina char
  • Sixty5
    Sixty5
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    Stamplar is in the worst place possible
    StamDK is only SnB 2h
    (Bleed stamDK is instagib)

    Stamsorc can play with any weapon...
    You oppose improvements to stamDK and here you are asking for a "different tone" to a class that is viable.

    Thing is, there is in my opinion a few issues with stamsorc that justify both - attention and improvement:
    1) bound armor is a relic of the past, no other class is so limited in making the passives related work - a 2 bar toggle is not desirable anymore, its a burden, yet its a signature skill - it deserves a rework
    2) stamsorc lacks identity and therefore diversity - compared to other stamsetups, there is very little choice in how to set up, making more class skills viable is necessary (simple example: take away dawnbreaker and you kill the setup, there is nothing a stamsorc has, that could compensate for the loss of it - that's really bad design, we deserve not being completely reliant on non-class skills to even work)

    The so perceived current rise of stamsorcs roots in non-class related issues, i.e. BGs going no-CP - bleeds being absurdly powerful in no-CP - stamsorc being able to equip dw + x - and here we are.

    And that ignores how stupid Implosion can be at times too.

    I'd ignore George. He seems to post the same comment in just about any thread.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Haven't ever taken my stamsorc into PvP (I leveled assault and support using a magicka build), but pve-wise there are three changes i would like to see made:

    1. Storm atronach: make one morph of this an air atronach that does physical damage. Don't care which though I would prefer greater atro simply because its the better morph already.

    2. Clannfear: make this pet scale with stamina/weapon damage, or alternatively scale with highest stat like an ultimate. It already does physical damage and stamsorc has no pet options.

    3. Bound armor & morphs: make these provide their current benefits while slotted, and have a separate activated effect. I.e.:
    bound armaments: provides 5% max stamina, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating increases your heavy attack damage by x% for 20 seconds (i would say make it 40% like molten armaments for dk, instead of the meager 11% it has now)
    bound aegis: provides 5% max magicka, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating does x.

    For bound aegis there's a few options for the active effect: it could grant some kind of spell reflect or absorb shield like wings/frost shield, or it could offer some other defensive benefit.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Haven't ever taken my stamsorc into PvP (I leveled assault and support using a magicka build), but pve-wise there are three changes i would like to see made:

    1. Storm atronach: make one morph of this an air atronach that does physical damage. Don't care which though I would prefer greater atro simply because its the better morph already.

    2. Clannfear: make this pet scale with stamina/weapon damage, or alternatively scale with highest stat like an ultimate. It already does physical damage and stamsorc has no pet options.

    3. Bound armor & morphs: make these provide their current benefits while slotted, and have a separate activated effect. I.e.:
    bound armaments: provides 5% max stamina, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating increases your heavy attack damage by x% for 20 seconds (i would say make it 40% like molten armaments for dk, instead of the meager 11% it has now)
    bound aegis: provides 5% max magicka, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating does x.

    For bound aegis there's a few options for the active effect: it could grant some kind of spell reflect or absorb shield like wings/frost shield, or it could offer some other defensive benefit.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Celestro
    Celestro
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    Everything OP has stated is pretty much spot on. A lot of these buff stam sorc threads have many of these same suggestions to 'buff' the class. I especially like the idea behind the implosion proc change. Some number changes needed and all of course, but seems diverse enough from the Templar's Burning Light skill at least.

    Even treating the bound armor like a 'summoned pet' to benefit from the 8% increase to health would be sufficient enough. Hard to imagine them stopping pets from needing to be double slotted, but if they're gonna lump Bound Armor into a similar category, almost might as well throw that on there. It wouldn't even be that bad if you could single slot them, like Nightblade Shades and have a limited duration, but they'd be 'more beneficial' being double slotted.
  • Sixty5
    Sixty5
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Haven't ever taken my stamsorc into PvP (I leveled assault and support using a magicka build), but pve-wise there are three changes i would like to see made:

    1. Storm atronach: make one morph of this an air atronach that does physical damage. Don't care which though I would prefer greater atro simply because its the better morph already.

    2. Clannfear: make this pet scale with stamina/weapon damage, or alternatively scale with highest stat like an ultimate. It already does physical damage and stamsorc has no pet options.

    3. Bound armor & morphs: make these provide their current benefits while slotted, and have a separate activated effect. I.e.:
    bound armaments: provides 5% max stamina, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating increases your heavy attack damage by x% for 20 seconds (i would say make it 40% like molten armaments for dk, instead of the meager 11% it has now)
    bound aegis: provides 5% max magicka, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating does x.

    For bound aegis there's a few options for the active effect: it could grant some kind of spell reflect or absorb shield like wings/frost shield, or it could offer some other defensive benefit.

    My initial idea around bound armour was to have both versions of the skill provide either magicka or stamina based on highest pool, leaving the skill open to having an offensive and defensive morph, thus giving it more options for interesting effects.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • Celestro
    Celestro
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Haven't ever taken my stamsorc into PvP (I leveled assault and support using a magicka build), but pve-wise there are three changes i would like to see made:

    1. Storm atronach: make one morph of this an air atronach that does physical damage. Don't care which though I would prefer greater atro simply because its the better morph already.

    2. Clannfear: make this pet scale with stamina/weapon damage, or alternatively scale with highest stat like an ultimate. It already does physical damage and stamsorc has no pet options.

    3. Bound armor & morphs: make these provide their current benefits while slotted, and have a separate activated effect. I.e.:
    bound armaments: provides 5% max stamina, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating increases your heavy attack damage by x% for 20 seconds (i would say make it 40% like molten armaments for dk, instead of the meager 11% it has now)
    bound aegis: provides 5% max magicka, minor resolve, and minor ward while slotted. Activating does x.

    For bound aegis there's a few options for the active effect: it could grant some kind of spell reflect or absorb shield like wings/frost shield, or it could offer some other defensive benefit.

    1. Replacing it with the Greater Atro morph would then take away much use from MagSorcs. Not only that, but it is the single target focused morph, while the other morph is supposed to be a partial "AoE" version. It would be better for it to apply to this morph, and similarly making the Air Atro spin to deal its AoE damage occasionally (still unmoving). Maybe the AoE could be a bleed as well since targets are getting sliced with blades and all.

    2. As much as I would love a pet as a stamsorc, I largely feel like they shouldn't have it. Presently, the clannfear is more geared towards a sorcerer tank, despite how questionable that is given their whimsical ability to actually take aggro among other things. Still its main ability heals based off Max Health and damage based off max Magicka. It shouldn't necessarily deal that much damage, but maybe it could be like an ultimate scaling based off max Health, Magicka and Stamina. Wouldn't even entirely useless for stamina then at least but still clear its not specifically for them.

    3. Molten Armaments does provide a Major Sorcery buff to everybody all around the character, which is kind of substantial in its own right, despite the uselessness in most respects. So Bound Armaments having a boost of 20%, maybe 25% max seems about right. I would even prefer something like 10% light and 10% heavy attack increase myself. One thing about this though is maybe making it cost Magicka for this different version, since currently, I feel like a stamsorc's sustain wouldn't fair well for 100% uptime on this boost unless the cost is fairly low. Spell reflect/absorb does sound awesome for Aegis though.
  • Skander
    Skander
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    Everything with shuffle on it's fine in pvp
    I meme, but my memes are so truthful they hurt
    -Elder Nightblades Online
    Want competitive pvp while being outnumbered? Tough luck, the devs clearly said you have to die in those situations
  • The_Brosteen
    The_Brosteen
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    I've been telling people that stam sorcs need an physical damage air atro for a year and a half, I'm glad someone else has had the same train of thought.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Skander wrote: »
    Everything with shuffle on it's fine in pvp

    Then slot it on your mag toons and quit whining all over the forums.

    @Celestro
    Can you explain why a stamsorc shouldn't have a pet? Is it bc of the heal? Just trying to understand your reasons.
    Also in 3, in no cp pvp I've already got issues sustaining my mag pool. Streak, surge and an occassional dark deal empty that 11-14k pretty fast. So I don't know if it would be a good idea to stress the off resource even more.
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