Should they remove the attribute bonuses from races to encourage more diversity in class making?

commdt · March 2018

Other

They shouldnt remove bonuses as this will ruin the immersion and lore. But the bonuses should be much less significant for combat (like divided by 10) or not related to combat.

Tasear · March 2018

No

Limits improve diversity

JWKe · March 2018

No

Racial abilities are what make TES imo. Homogenizing them is a bad move.

CHM228 · March 2018

Yes

Racial passive must be adjusted imo, except lizard's swim speed etc.

AchlysNox · March 2018

Yes

It should say something when after having reached 100 kill PVP achievements for each of the races, Nords are still sitting at 6 kills. Finding a Nord in Cyrodiil is like finding a unicorn.

ghwaite · March 2018

No

smacky · March 2018

No

The bonuses that the races get are not specifially ESO, they have history in the other Elderscrolls games.

You chose your race in the earlier games because the races had base stat benefits, such as Argonians being able to swim underwater.

To remove racial bonuses would not be right IMO.

Also, there are numerous ways to play different races and classes, and using an Orc as a MagSorc may cause you to do less damage, but you would be able to break free more often, and regen health quicker than a High Elf / Breton MagSorc.

This might not be great for endgame vet trials, but you can still make that work for PvP / Dungeons / Overland.

Your favourite toon, does not have to be the best DPS dealer for you to have fun with them and to enjoy playing with friends.

When you start playing with the intention of endgame vet trials and the like, you have some pretty narrow subsets, which are necessary mixes to make it work. High Level DPS / Strong Tank with increased Healing / Healers that can heal you by blinking

Point is, at that point everything has to be spot on, down to the gear sets / mundus stone / weapons / skills and morphs selected and even where your CP are spent to be effective.

I don't think removing the Lore from the game to play end game content as a different race for essentially cosmetic reasons makes sense.

Perhaps a better solution to your proposed question would be a series of outfits / costumes to alter the appearance of your character. Dress your Breton up as an Argonian ... chains and all.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2018

No

Races are not costumes, they are the physical and ancestral means to perform certain roles. Choose the role then then race that best supports it, or choose the race then the role it performs best.

Aquanova · March 2018

No

At this point in the game? No!

Many of us have spent money on race changes to specifically get those racial passives.

I would like ZOS to allow "for free" the "any race any faction" feature so that players aren't forced into a faction just to get an ideal race passive. They could find someway to compensate those of us who bought that feature already.

AchlysNox · March 2018

Yes

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Races are not costumes, they are the physical and ancestral means to perform certain roles. Choose the role then then race that best supports it, or choose the race then the role it performs best.

No, but then again it's kinda weird to attribute proficiency with race in the first place. I get why Argonians can swim faster and something like poison/disease resistance could relate to a unique racial biology, but for the most part these bonuses could just as easily be put into a separate system that has nothing to do with race.

At character creation the game could present you with a set of 'background perks' that would give passive bonuses based on how your character was raised, schooled and/or trained prior to the game starting. For those of us that care about immersion, that would even add a bit of an RP dimension to the process.

Sardath · March 2018

Yes

Yes - it's one of the most annoying aspects of ESO. For once, the Lore argument is dumb - every TES game had starting bonuses - in each and every game you will eventually be as good as any race at any skill, ESO is the only one that doesn't follow this. Not to mention the passives themselves aren't all lore accurate.

Every other big MMO has either eliminated race passives or has made tehm as general as possible, so you could fit them into more play styles. I'd honestly just like them completely redesigned into a 3 choice skill tree.

At LvL 1 you'd have 3 passives, one for healing, one for tanking and one for DPS - you get to chose one, at lvl 2 another 3 - so on and so forth. Each selected passive should be based on your dominant stat - EG. instead of +5% magicka, you get +5% dominant resource. To this, they could add a lot of flavor depending on race, to keep a race identity.

Redguards being weapon masters could have a magicka based build by having a passive that gives you +5% magicka damage after performing a heavy attack or smth. A tank passive that reduces damage you get from the targets you hit with your light attack by x%. Argonians could coat the enemy in poison that deals x% weapon or magicka damage, depending on your build.

ZOS could do a lot to preserve class fantasy and increase racial diversity at the same time.

Enslaved · March 2018

No

Removing racial bonuses from a game related to TES?

smacky · March 2018

No

Aquanova wrote: »

At this point in the game? No!

Many of us have spent money on race changes to specifically get those racial passives.

I would like ZOS to allow "for free" the "any race any faction" feature so that players aren't forced into a faction just to get an ideal race passive. They could find someway to compensate those of us who bought that feature already.

As someone who purchased the crowns specifically for the any race any alliance function, and I already own both the assistants, and subscribe to eso+ (so crown refund won't cut it) I can't see any way this can be "made up" to those of us who have purchased it.

This would be like saying, allow anyone to become an Imperial Warden, and nullifying the Imperial and Morrowind bonuses. It simply would not be fair to those who have paid, the same as you have said "Many of us have spent money on race changes to specifically get those racial passives." applies to any race any alliance.

Wolfenbelle · March 2018

No

What is this urge to create ever more "diversity?" It's a game, not real life politics. There's so much "diversity" now in this game but almost all of it is not used because people always want what is deemed BIS or close. Creating more things won't change that.

We have stamina and magicka versions of Templar, Nightblade, Warden, Dragonknight and Sorcerer. That's 10 potential class variations and the occasional hybrid. Plus there is a seemingly countless number and variety of gear sets. We have six weapon types, various mundus stones, traits, enchantments, poisons, potions, etc. We have a huge number of skills available, two weapon bars that allow us to use up to 10 skills and 2 ultimates at a time.

There comes a point when "diversity" for its own sake is really pointless.

smacky · March 2018

No

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

There comes a point when "diversity" for its own sake is really pointless.

Or in the words of Delores Umbridge "Progress for Progress sake must be discouraged"

Zeni0s · March 2018

No

No! My dunmer NEEDS his environmental lava resist.

I like this system, always do in any elder scroll

Klixen · March 2018

Yes

I voted yes.

Because I love Orcs, but unfortunately, I also love magicka classes. But Orcs and Magicka are not a good combination

.

I find it incredibly frustrating that I can't play the race I want, as the class I want.

Idea: How about adding some type of 'Racial Skill Change Scroll' to the cash shop? When you use this scroll it allows you to chose the racial skills of a different race. So for instance, I could make an Orc, but with the racial skills of a Breton or High Elf

Iluvrien · March 2018

No

Sardath wrote: »

Yes - it's one of the most annoying aspects of ESO. For once, the Lore argument is dumb - every TES game had starting bonuses - in each and every game you will eventually be as good as any race at any skill, ESO is the only one that doesn't follow this. Not to mention the passives themselves aren't all lore accurate.

Only when you are talking about skills.

Races did have "racial passives" in other games. For example, here are the non-skill, non-stat passives for Altmer in every game from Daggerfall (Ref. UESP):

Daggerfall

Immunity to paralysis

Morrowind:

Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%
Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%
Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%
Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%
Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%
Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)

Oblivion:

High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability: Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant
High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim:

Highborn ability: High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant
Highborn greater power: Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.

And what are the passives in ESO? Destro staff, Magicka recovery, Max Magicka, and Elemental Talent. Two items on that list show up in Skyrim, one in Oblivion and one in Morrowind. ESO may be handling them differently (no weaknesses, for example) but it is not ignoring Lore in the way it does so.

So, by all means, let's talk about "dumb" arguments.

strangeradnd · March 2018

No

I think they should just put hard caps on everything that all races can reach and get rid of the end game need for a specific race to meet peoples requirements. If DPS, Stamina, Health, Magicka and regeneration rates all have caps that you can acquire the racial stats would only matter during the climb to the top where they are less important anyway.

HatchetHaro · March 2018

Yes

Gameplay and balance wise, it makes sense. We have too many Redguard and Khajiiti stamina DDs, and too many Dunmeri and Altmeri magicka DDs. The fact that the damage difference between a BiS and a non-BiS race can reach 10% is already a factor in elitism when it comes to the end-game community. "You're wasting your time playing an Argonian DD" is an actual comment I have received a while ago, and it still pisses me off to no end.

I'd like to add that supportive roles such as tanking and healing are less susceptible to the disbalance in effectiveness from racial passives; those are definitely more skill-based, and also don't have a perceivable ceiling of skill, completely different from DDs, the effectiveness of which can be measured by plenty of addons. In fact, the best tanks I've seen in the end-game community here just play whichever race suits them.

People like to slam the idea of racial balance with just the simple word, "lore", like it actually means anything. I find that view extremely narrow-minded; there are plenty of ways to apply passives that are unique to every race that also fits the lore without anything that increases their damage. The thing with ESO is that it is an MMO with an active competitive end-game scene in both PvE and PvP, and people will always try to find ways to get an advantage over others.

And if people are also going to bring in other ES games to prove their point with "lore", I'd like to add that the racial passives in Skyrim, aside from the active special daily abilities (too niche for ESO), don't offer any real advantage over any other race in terms of damage; they are completely utility-based. Add to that the lack of any in-game competition against other people (because there aren't other people), and Skyrim's racial passives can be as unbalanced as they want and it still wouldn't affect peoples' enjoyment of the game.

I'd like to point out the four types of racial passives currently in ESO:

1. Damage Increasing Passives

This includes Khajiiti's +8% crit chance, Altmeri's +4% elemental damage, Redguards' +10% max stamina, among others.
This type of passive is the main reason why people choose between "deal damage" and "look good". This is a terrible type of passive in that it is the culprit in the lack of diversity in racial choices in certain roles.

2. Sustain Passives

Bosmeri's +21% stamina recovery, Argonians' tri-stat potion passive, Altmeri +10% magicka recovery, you know the drill. Some of these are pretty meh, such as Khajiiti's +10% stamina recovery and Bretons' -3% magicka cost; some are pretty game-changing, such as Redguards' Adrenaline Rush and Argonians' tri-stat potion passive. These don't really affect damage as much as the straight-up damage-increasing passives do, but the sustain gained from these passives can unlock more efficient and effective rotations for certain races to use. I'd say nerf a few of the big ones down a bit, such as the Redguards' Adrenaline Rush, because that is equivalent to chugging a crafted stamina potion on cooldown; and the Argonian potion passive can be brought down to bi-stat magicka and stamina so they're a little less effective in PvP.

3. Resistance Passives

Bretons' spell resistance, Bosmeri's and Argonians' poison and disease resistance, and Nords' cold resistance. They're meh. They're lore-friendly, sure, but really, they're just meh.

4. Unique Passives

These passives are pretty much the most "racial passive" out of all the racial passives, in that they actually feel unique to each race. Argonians' swim speed, for example, does not affect the end-game at all, but is wonderfully refreshing for questing. Orsimers' sprint speed, Khajiiti's stealth effectiveness and damage, Nords' damage reduction, etc. are all included here. These are passives that do not affect the competitiveness in the end-game scene at all, but still make for lore-friendly ways to make each race feel unique.

What we need to adjust for racial diversity within roles is to remove these damage-increasing passives, balance the sustain passives a little bit, and make more unique passives that do not affect the end-game.

Even if that can not be accomplished for whatever reason, I think people need to acknowledge that there is an issue right now with racial passives, and, at the very least, we need to come up with solutions to lower that damage gap between races.

Kuramas9tails · March 2018

Yes

Destruent wrote: »

difference is not as big as you may think it is...

The difference IS big if guilds wont even let you in a craglorn vet trial based on your paired race and build.

smacky · March 2018

No

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

Yes - it's one of the most annoying aspects of ESO. For once, the Lore argument is dumb - every TES game had starting bonuses - in each and every game you will eventually be as good as any race at any skill, ESO is the only one that doesn't follow this. Not to mention the passives themselves aren't all lore accurate.

Only when you are talking about skills.

Races did have "racial passives" in other games. For example, here are the non-skill, non-stat passives for Altmer in every game from Daggerfall (Ref. UESP):

Daggerfall
Immunity to paralysis

Morrowind:
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%

Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%

Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%

Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%

Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%

Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)

Oblivion:
High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability: Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant

High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant

High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim:
Highborn ability: High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant

Highborn greater power: Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.

And what are the passives in ESO? Destro staff, Magicka recovery, Max Magicka, and Elemental Talent. Two items on that list show up in Skyrim, one in Oblivion and one in Morrowind. ESO may be handling them differently (no weaknesses, for example) but it is not ignoring Lore in the way it does so.

So, by all means, let's talk about "dumb" arguments.

You are using a single race to make your point which is not a fair reflection.

Swimming Bonuses / Disease and Poison Resistance are theings we see for Argonian's throughout the series.
Orc's base is strenght, and while this game caters for carrying capacity differently to TES games, the racial passives still reflect a strength builg, hence the reason one of the earlier posts was from someone who wants to play as an Orc Sorc but finds themselves disadvantaged.

All I am saying is that if you are going to tear someone down for saying that the Lore of the game is a valid reason (which IMO it is) then use a fair and unbiased argument to do so.

Khajit's have always been theives / outcasts and remain so in this game. Some of that is reflected in their nature and some in their passives, such as sneak abilities.

You have to bear in mind that this is an MMO, whereas Oblivion / Skyrim etc are single player games. As such it is impractical to put weaknesses on races, since not all races have weaknesses in the game's Lore in an MMO environment.

BTW, to some extent weaknesses do exist, otherwise I presume you have not played as a Vampire and tried to do White Gold Tower.

Eirianbryn30 · March 2018

No

I rather like my Bosmer Magplar, she can roll dodge out of harms way and stay out of the fire. As a healer I'd say she's quite capable. I don't do much in the way of end game stuff so I don't care what min/maxers think of her.

Iluvrien · March 2018

No

smacky wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

Yes - it's one of the most annoying aspects of ESO. For once, the Lore argument is dumb - every TES game had starting bonuses - in each and every game you will eventually be as good as any race at any skill, ESO is the only one that doesn't follow this. Not to mention the passives themselves aren't all lore accurate.

Only when you are talking about skills.

Races did have "racial passives" in other games. For example, here are the non-skill, non-stat passives for Altmer in every game from Daggerfall (Ref. UESP):

Daggerfall
Immunity to paralysis

Morrowind:
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%

Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%

Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%

Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%

Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%

Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)

Oblivion:
High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability: Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant

High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant

High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim:
Highborn ability: High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant

Highborn greater power: Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.

And what are the passives in ESO? Destro staff, Magicka recovery, Max Magicka, and Elemental Talent. Two items on that list show up in Skyrim, one in Oblivion and one in Morrowind. ESO may be handling them differently (no weaknesses, for example) but it is not ignoring Lore in the way it does so.

So, by all means, let's talk about "dumb" arguments.

You are using a single race to make your point which is not a fair reflection.

Swimming Bonuses / Disease and Poison Resistance are theings we see for Argonian's throughout the series.
Orc's base is strenght, and while this game caters for carrying capacity differently to TES games, the racial passives still reflect a strength builg, hence the reason one of the earlier posts was from someone who wants to play as an Orc Sorc but finds themselves disadvantaged.

All I am saying is that if you are going to tear someone down for saying that the Lore of the game is a valid reason (which IMO it is) then use a fair and unbiased argument to do so.

Khajit's have always been theives / outcasts and remain so in this game. Some of that is reflected in their nature and some in their passives, such as sneak abilities.

You have to bear in mind that this is an MMO, whereas Oblivion / Skyrim etc are single player games. As such it is impractical to put weaknesses on races, since not all races have weaknesses in the game's Lore in an MMO environment.

BTW, to some extent weaknesses do exist, otherwise I presume you have not played as a Vampire and tried to do White Gold Tower.

I used a single race because otherwise my post would have been even longer. Just that.

In fact I originally wrote it using Dunmer, but changed to Altmer because it was one of the two races in Daggerfall (the other being Nord) that had a non-stat, non-skill passive.

My post was a direct refutation of that made by @Sardath who cited only the starting bonuses in previous games, not mentioning the non-skill, non-stat passives. As such, the use of a single race to disprove the point was entirely fair and unbiased.

I specifically mentioned that ESO didn't include racial weaknesses as a difference. I assumed that the reasons for ESO not including them would have been self-evident. It would seem not.

Are Vampire and doing WGT races? Do they then impinge on this discussion at all?

Iluvrien · March 2018

No

HatchetHaro wrote: »

What we need to adjust for racial diversity within roles is to remove these damage-increasing passives, balance the sustain passives a little bit, and make more unique passives that do not affect the end-game.

Even if that can not be accomplished for whatever reason, I think people need to acknowledge that there is an issue right now with racial passives, and, at the very least, we need to come up with solutions to lower that damage gap between races.

Fine. If end-game is the problem, then change end-game. Don't change the racial passives themselves.

Block the effects when entering Trials, PvP, etc. I frankly don't care how it is dealt with. Why suggest changing it for the rest of us?

Trinity_Is_My_Name · March 2018

No

Removing the Attribute bonuses removes diversity.

Jade1986 · March 2018

Other

I always said they should let you choose the attribute you get on your toons. Like instead of bosmer having all stamina stuff, at character creation you could choose which direction you want to go in, stam, health, or magicka. This would increase diversity by a ton.

Jade1986 · March 2018

Other

SirAndy wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Should they remove the attribute bonuses from races to encourage more diversity in class making?

How exactly does making everyone the same "encourage more diversity"?

More racial diversity they meant.

aeowulf · March 2018

The bonus should be converted into +cp in certain skills (and the cp tree expanded a bit). That way no races get something other races can't get without specialising, it benefits new players (low cp) more and it's one less thing that needs balancing.

I also think armour should be giving +cp. For example one cp skill may grant +weapon damage, equipping a set may grant +15 cp in that skill, your race may grant +10 cp, and you can make up the remaining 50 with your own points. Or be a different race & wear a different set, it just costs you 75 cp instead.

It would assist tremendously with diminishing returns, which is one of the larger factors of the massive gap between a newer player and experienced one.

Kuramas9tails · March 2018

Yes

I greatly understand both sides. I beat VMA and was even in a VMOL progression group on my mageblade khajiit. We even had TWO of us! The other Mageblade Khajiit even got Flawless Conquerer and people on Facebook found it...entertaining. But that was before Morrowinds resource nerf. The changes they made absolutely killed resource sustain for my mage khajiits. Every swallow soul hits 2-3K harder on my Altmer than it did on my Khajiit. People saying that it is a small difference, that is a BIG difference with each hit on a DPS test paired with resource sustain. I watch my Khajiit VMA last boss run and the magic sustain is ridiculous, even better than right now on my Altmer.

If this was just a small difference in DPS and resource management then I would be a Khajiit right now but that is not the case. At least for my play style. From a perspective of someone who was a mage khajiit before the nerf, after, and even race changed to an Altmer, it's noticeably different. I want to be a Khajiit again but I will lose so much damage and resource that it will be a headache.

I have no simple answer. I just want to be a mage khajiit with the same sustain and damage as before Morrowind but sustain nerf needed to happen for some builds soooooo.......I have no answer. ZOS just needs to glitch my account so I appear a khajiit but I have high elf passives.