Why is it OK to put major balance related features behind a paywall?

zaria · March 2018

Drachenfier wrote: »

Back in my day we were required to pay a sub AND pay for every xpac. While fighting monsters uphill in the snow both ways.

You greedy millennials don't know how good you have it

Yes and barefoot until Oblivion.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Basks-In-The-Sun

Mureel · March 2018

Why is it that Not One Solitary Thing can happen without people complaining?

Seriously - get over it.

Buy the damned expansion and just play it or gtfo!

I am so over these 'gimme' posts.

It's recreation, a game, fun.

You play, you pay. End of.

hedna123b14_ESO · March 2018

If I make a toy and you want to pay with it you should pay. If I then make another toy that interacts with it and you wanna play with it, you should pay. If i make another toy, but you don't want to play with it, but someone else does and you are jealous of their toy - you should pay and get one yourself. No new content should ever be offered for free regardless of what the content is...I don't work for free, and I'm assuming neither do you, stop being entitled...

Sevn · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

EDIT: Some people seem to be getting the wrong impression. I don't think anything given is P2W. I do think its short sighted and limits the game. From what we have seen, the psijic line so far is just reskinned/themed version of other abilities. The warden and imperial is just basic/jack of all trades. These are all because they are paywalled. Paywalling combat features both; limits them, too strong and you get actual p2w complaints, and makes the game feel a little slimy.

No this isn't a P2W cry post. I have Morrowind, and I preordered Summerset. I don't think the skill line is going to be much more than some utility skills for other classes to be able to pull off roles like tanking better, and I don't think imperial or warden is OP, but I do think they should be base game. (The psijic skills could be explained by vanus teaching you as a thanks for help.)

But why does everyone think its OK? I see a few arguments:

ZOS is a business: Yes, they are, and they make more than enough money from cosmetics, crown crates, utilities, housing and the like. The only reason they are shoving the skill lines/classes in is to force people to buy. That is shady if ever I saw it. Paying for new abilities and strengths hmmm... Slippery slope.

Other MMOs do it: Well, yes, they do. But does that mean that ESO should? No. Other MMOs are heavily P2W, offer level boosts and things unobtainable in game. ESO prides itself on being better or different, and only offering cosmetics/utility.

Paywalled sets already exist: Yes, but sets provide much less a major change than an entire class does. Sets can be replaced and gained easily, a class offers massive functionality differences that shakes up the entire meta quite heavily. Honestly I think everything should be BOP, except maybe vMA/perfect Asylum weapons. If people want to spend their time farming money/sets, they should be able to trade freely.

Progression is needed: This is the only really valid argument. Progression is needed else the game would grow stale. But we can do that without shoving things behind a pay wall. The CP system being more than a mindless statfest comes to mind. Imagine the new player entering and realizing to be top tier they have to buy 4 different DLCs off the bat (Currently they don't.)

In my eyes it is short sighted and unnecessary, locking major features behind paywalls builds up, it stops being play your way.

Ok, one question, why should it be free?

ak_pvp · March 2018

Sevn wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

EDIT: Some people seem to be getting the wrong impression. I don't think anything given is P2W. I do think its short sighted and limits the game. From what we have seen, the psijic line so far is just reskinned/themed version of other abilities. The warden and imperial is just basic/jack of all trades. These are all because they are paywalled. Paywalling combat features both; limits them, too strong and you get actual p2w complaints, and makes the game feel a little slimy.

No this isn't a P2W cry post. I have Morrowind, and I preordered Summerset. I don't think the skill line is going to be much more than some utility skills for other classes to be able to pull off roles like tanking better, and I don't think imperial or warden is OP, but I do think they should be base game. (The psijic skills could be explained by vanus teaching you as a thanks for help.)

But why does everyone think its OK? I see a few arguments:

ZOS is a business: Yes, they are, and they make more than enough money from cosmetics, crown crates, utilities, housing and the like. The only reason they are shoving the skill lines/classes in is to force people to buy. That is shady if ever I saw it. Paying for new abilities and strengths hmmm... Slippery slope.

Other MMOs do it: Well, yes, they do. But does that mean that ESO should? No. Other MMOs are heavily P2W, offer level boosts and things unobtainable in game. ESO prides itself on being better or different, and only offering cosmetics/utility.

Paywalled sets already exist: Yes, but sets provide much less a major change than an entire class does. Sets can be replaced and gained easily, a class offers massive functionality differences that shakes up the entire meta quite heavily. Honestly I think everything should be BOP, except maybe vMA/perfect Asylum weapons. If people want to spend their time farming money/sets, they should be able to trade freely.

Progression is needed: This is the only really valid argument. Progression is needed else the game would grow stale. But we can do that without shoving things behind a pay wall. The CP system being more than a mindless statfest comes to mind. Imagine the new player entering and realizing to be top tier they have to buy 4 different DLCs off the bat (Currently they don't.)

In my eyes it is short sighted and unnecessary, locking major features behind paywalls builds up, it stops being play your way.

Ok, one question, why should it be free?

Because it is a large impact to the game that things will be balanced around. DKs and templars took nerfs in Morrowind to balance around the shiny new class that you have to pay (maybe multiple times if your slots are full) to use. It's like saying that we should paywall poisons behind dark brotherhood.

Because its limiting to new players. Say someone joins and wants to play a druid. Then finds out they have to buy a separate DLC (err... Chapter) to play it.

Overall it feels skeevy. Imagine the outrage if we only give extra CP to those who buy the expac, whilst continuing with the devaluation of CP as the power creeps.

supaskrub · March 2018

Psijic order skill line will not be OP, it will not be P2W, the same people who think it will be are the same people who were vrying out loud tat warden would be a P2W class when Morrowind was announced, its an incentive to buy the chapter, nothing more and nothing less.

ak_pvp · March 2018

supaskrub wrote: »

Psijic order skill line will not be OP, it will not be P2W, the same people who think it will be are the same people who were vrying out loud tat warden would be a P2W class when Morrowind was announced, its an incentive to buy the chapter, nothing more and nothing less.

Yeah. I agree. But that is what I don't like. I will buy the dlc for other reasons, because I like TES. Shoving the skill line on to incitivise buying is shady.

DHale · March 2018

Can I have your stuff? Send it to my @ name to the top left. Thanks. Build walls not bridges.

ak_pvp · March 2018

DHale wrote: »

Can I have your stuff? Send it to my @ name to the top left. Thanks. Build walls not bridges.

Can I have yours. I am pretty poor after buying another house.

Conduit0 · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

What a bad comparison. The devs will still be payed. The company will still make enough without putting balance related additions in. You both know that.

Why don't we just add buyable vMA then. More money for zos, yeah. Took people to create it. And if the user has the money. Why not?

I would very much like to see your evidence for the bolded claim. I assume you have access to the financial records of numerous companies that has allowed you to analyze and compare the viability and success rates of different monetization methods across a wide range of MMOs.

CelestialSlayer · March 2018

It's their community and their game. Whilst I can see the point you are making regarding adding something in the expansion. They did do this with morrowind with the warden character so what's the difference? In fact I would say this is exactly what she's it a chapter and not a dlc. If you don't like their business model then vote with your wallet or wait for a sale. But really this needs to stop. It's not your game you just play it.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

What a bad comparison. The devs will still be payed. The company will still make enough without putting balance related additions in. You both know that.

Why don't we just add buyable vMA then. More money for zos, yeah. Took people to create it. And if the user has the money. Why not?

I would very much like to see your evidence for the bolded claim. I assume you have access to the financial records of numerous companies that has allowed you to analyze and compare the viability and success rates of different monetization methods across a wide range of MMOs.

Zenimax is a billion dollar company. If the extra balance related sales was the only thing making ESO profitable, it would have a lot more problems.

Use some *** common sense.

Bevik · March 2018

They should sell DLCs, Chapters somehow. Means should include some exclusive skills, sets, story etc. How else would they sell them then? Plus the whole Psijic is outside of the current zones we have got right know and it is with Summerset. For me it makes sense that Summerset is a Chapter and cost money. Sure it could be a DLC but it's their decision. I already preordered it and I'm not alone.

klowdy1 · March 2018

What is it called when people want everything given to them, despite the fact getting everything for free would ruin companies, having no income for new products? Entitlement, that's right.

Gaming companies need to start assigning numbers to everything, so with all DLC and chapters, that would bring this up to ESO 10. How can someone ask for a brand new game for free? I mean, they do it with sports games. "Here's Madden 2019. It's the same as the last 5 years, but we made some very slight, unnoticeable changes."

Conduit0 · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

What a bad comparison. The devs will still be payed. The company will still make enough without putting balance related additions in. You both know that.

Why don't we just add buyable vMA then. More money for zos, yeah. Took people to create it. And if the user has the money. Why not?

I would very much like to see your evidence for the bolded claim. I assume you have access to the financial records of numerous companies that has allowed you to analyze and compare the viability and success rates of different monetization methods across a wide range of MMOs.

Zenimax is a billion dollar company. If the extra balance related sales was the only thing making ESO profitable, it would have a lot more problems.

Use some *** common sense.

So the answer is, no you don't have any evidence and your arguments come squarely from between your glutes. Got it.

MLGProPlayer · March 2018

Because game developers/publishers are businesses, not charities.

Every MMO ever released has put new gameplay features behind a paywall when releasing new expansions.

ak_pvp · March 2018

klowdy1 wrote: »

What is it called when people want everything given to them, despite the fact getting everything for free would ruin companies, having no income for new products? Entitlement, that's right.

Gaming companies need to start assigning numbers to everything, so with all DLC and chapters, that would bring this up to ESO 10. How can someone ask for a brand new game for free? I mean, they do it with sports games. "Here's Madden 2019. It's the same as the last 5 years, but we made some very slight, unnoticeable changes."

If I told you I'd prefer the sub model because then everyone would be on an even turf would you still call me entitled. Or are you just asspulling? None of this matters to me. I'll buy the expacs anyway.

Minyassa · March 2018

Honestly? I think they felt forced to do this due to the failure of vampire and werewolf skill lines bringing in any money. They are making no money off vampire and werewolf anymore since people scream bloody murder at any hint of the idea of paying for those two things in either in-game or real currency. I have seen an all-out campaign to render vampire and werewolf completely free, including people scolding folks who offered to even *tip* people for a bite. I don't know if they anticipated that when they made the skills acquirable in-game through rare NPCs, but really the effort to make sure no one ever pays for it has been an extreme one. I think they meant that some skill lines would bring them money, and they are trying again. I doubt they'll provide an in-game way to acquire this skill line like WW and vampire, and if that does turn out to be the case I think it will be because they learned a lesson from the first two. People being stingy do make companies change their tactics.

Rohamad_Ali · March 2018

ZoS needs to be profitable and I'm more OK with these chapters then I am with crown crates so pick your battles wisely .

ak_pvp · March 2018

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

ZoS needs to be profitable and I'm more OK with these chapters then I am with crown crates so pick your battles wisely .

I'm fine with chapters, as long as the content is minimally intrusive. Sets, BGs, new raids, etc etc are all good. I think crown crates are fine though. Completely optional, a extra stream of income, creative stuff, and the occasional free crates. Yeah RNG is a bit suckish, but the prices are similar to that of buying something from the CS. I.e. 1 crate, 270 crowns in a 15 pack, and you will get something that would probably sell for 270 crowns. But with the bonus of gems and a chance for the mounts.

If you go in for the mounts alone you will have a bad time.

Dante_Zetsumei · March 2018

I understand charging for dlcs thats a common thing but me and my gf game together and i buy it on her console so we can both play. But on eso everything it bound to gamertag even if i bought eso plus on each gamertags the expansions which to me is another name for dlc need to be bought so i just stick to the base game and she has most dlcs and morrowind

Saturn · March 2018

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Saturn wrote: »

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

@saturn Eh?

I never once said I wanted them "to deliver all new features for free." Only major balance things classes/skill lines, and things like jewelry/spell crafting. So that everyone is on an even turf.

BGs, fine, new zones, fine. New PvP things, fine. New trials, fine. New sets, fine, new dungeons, fine.

Am I taking a crazy pill or is everyone misunderstanding me. I have been called entitled and wanting free stuff, but evidently by me ordering it isn't.

Dante_Zetsumei · March 2018

Saturn wrote: »

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

You say thats not how mmos work but like i said in another thread tera is a f2p mmo where all content is free so not all mmos work like eso

Saturn · March 2018

Dante_Zetsumei wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

You say thats not how mmos work but like i said in another thread tera is a f2p mmo where all content is free so not all mmos work like eso

Okay, not all MMOs, but look at the overall trend and you will see that it's more often like that. Just because a 100% don't follow that pattern, doesn't mean it's not still there. The point I was trying to make is that OP is saying ESO isn't like other MMOs, but he is wrong, the only difference between ESO and other MMOs is just its update schedule. The rest is pretty par for the course.

TERA might be free, but it is also P2W, which I believe the OP is against.

Saturn · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

@saturn Eh?

I never once said I wanted them "to deliver all new features for free." Only major balance things classes/skill lines, and things like jewelry/spell crafting. So that everyone is on an even turf.

BGs, fine, new zones, fine. New PvP things, fine. New trials, fine. New sets, fine, new dungeons, fine.

Am I taking a crazy pill or is everyone misunderstanding me. I have been called entitled and wanting free stuff, but evidently by me ordering it isn't.

You should re-read your post then, it sounds like you want updates for free. Major balance changes are already added to the base game, so if you just want the balance changes you will get them without paying, so if that's what you want without paying, then you're already getting them. Classes, skills and new crafting skills are not balance changes, they are features, and new features are rarely handed out for free. The only instances I think remember of new features being given for free are the tiny additions to pre-existing content (new contest points in Cyrodiil for example), or the reworking of old content. So it still doesn't change the fact that you are wrong in assuming this is something ZOS has previously handed out for free, because all new features, such as you called "balance changes" are only added with DLCs or Chapters.

klowdy1 · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

@saturn Eh?

I never once said I wanted them "to deliver all new features for free." Only major balance things classes/skill lines, and things like jewelry/spell crafting. So that everyone is on an even turf.

BGs, fine, new zones, fine. New PvP things, fine. New trials, fine. New sets, fine, new dungeons, fine.

Am I taking a crazy pill or is everyone misunderstanding me. I have been called entitled and wanting free stuff, but evidently by me ordering it isn't.

What are they supposed to introduce in chapters to sell them if you are literally anything people would spend money on? You want classes for free, that was a huge selling poi t for the last chapter. You want the Psijic skill line for free, why would anyone buy Summerset if they will eventually get it at a huge discount.

I have seen people complainijng about the fact chapters are just oversized DLCs, but when they add more to make buying it worth while, people want it all for free. You say you aren't asking for everything to be handed to you, it after the things you listed, what is left? Perhaps no one misunderstands you, we just think you're wrong. Maybe you yourself don't realize what you are asking for.

What does the sub have to do with chapters? If the game went back to a full sub title, chapters would still cost money, and would contain the same stuff. Forcing everyone to pay monthly doesn't affect what expansions have, other than maybe adding MORE stuff you would want without paying.

Erelah · March 2018

Minyassa wrote: »

Honestly? I think they felt forced to do this due to the failure of vampire and werewolf skill lines bringing in any money. They are making no money off vampire and werewolf anymore since people scream bloody murder at any hint of the idea of paying for those two things in either in-game or real currency. I have seen an all-out campaign to render vampire and werewolf completely free, including people scolding folks who offered to even *tip* people for a bite. I don't know if they anticipated that when they made the skills acquirable in-game through rare NPCs, but really the effort to make sure no one ever pays for it has been an extreme one. I think they meant that some skill lines would bring them money, and they are trying again. I doubt they'll provide an in-game way to acquire this skill line like WW and vampire, and if that does turn out to be the case I think it will be because they learned a lesson from the first two. People being stingy do make companies change their tactics.

Anyone can become a vampire or werewolf for free. Those lines were not introduced with Zenimax Online charging for them. At night there are spawns which may infect players. Get hit and a few days later you can do the normal quest to become one. For a long time people started slaying these mobs to prevent others from changing in order to sell bites.

My original character (still in play) was turned from the NPC.

Sevn · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

What a bad comparison. The devs will still be payed. The company will still make enough without putting balance related additions in. You both know that.

Why don't we just add buyable vMA then. More money for zos, yeah. Took people to create it. And if the user has the money. Why not?

I would very much like to see your evidence for the bolded claim. I assume you have access to the financial records of numerous companies that has allowed you to analyze and compare the viability and success rates of different monetization methods across a wide range of MMOs.

Zenimax is a billion dollar company. If the extra balance related sales was the only thing making ESO profitable, it would have a lot more problems.

Use some *** common sense.

It's obvious you have no idea how businesses are ran. That's like saying because MS owns the Xbox division and has billions the Xbox division should just buy every studio available and churn out tons of exclusives.

No, they are allotted a certain budget and that's that. No parent company is going to ok giving away product that can be monetized.

MLGProPlayer · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

So in short, you want them to deliver all new features for free. That's not how a business works, and that's not how MMOs work. If you want to participate in the progression you have to buy the expansions to that game. That's how it works with every game, and ESO isn't any different, despite what you might think. New classes, gear, content, skills, etc., all of this is only available to pay customers, and demanding to get it for free is naive to say the least, but also just shows a lack of understanding behind how business operate.

What I don't get is that you say you already bought the update on pre-order, so you want them to change something, but don't back up your own opinion. Seems a bit weird.

If this had been a thread about ZOS' failure to deliver on promises, and keeping their game running smoothly I would have been behind it, but what you are asking for simply won't happen. And I think it's extremely foolish to be outraged about what is considered standard practice amongst MMO developers. And no, ESO isn't any different, all their content updates are only available if you pay for them. If you are an ESO+ member you are still paying for them.

@saturn Eh?

I never once said I wanted them "to deliver all new features for free." Only major balance things classes/skill lines, and things like jewelry/spell crafting. So that everyone is on an even turf.

BGs, fine, new zones, fine. New PvP things, fine. New trials, fine. New sets, fine, new dungeons, fine.

Am I taking a crazy pill or is everyone misunderstanding me. I have been called entitled and wanting free stuff, but evidently by me ordering it isn't.

No MMO has ever given major features like those out for free though. It's perfectly fine to lock them behind a paywall. It's an extremely low paywall too. If you can't afford $30, or like $10 after a few months, then you have bigger problems you need to be dealing with. Stop playing this game and go find a job.