Why is it OK to put major balance related features behind a paywall?

ak_pvp

EDIT: Some people seem to be getting the wrong impression. I don't think anything given is P2W. I do think its short sighted and limits the game. From what we have seen, the psijic line so far is just reskinned/themed version of other abilities. The warden and imperial is just basic/jack of all trades. These are all because they are paywalled. Paywalling combat features both; limits them, too strong and you get actual p2w complaints, and makes the game feel a little slimy.

No this isn't a P2W cry post. I have Morrowind, and I preordered Summerset. I don't think the skill line is going to be much more than some utility skills for other classes to be able to pull off roles like tanking better, and I don't think imperial or warden is OP, but I do think they should be base game. (The psijic skills could be explained by vanus teaching you as a thanks for help.)

But why does everyone think its OK? I see a few arguments:

ZOS is a business: Yes, they are, and they make more than enough money from cosmetics, crown crates, utilities, housing and the like. The only reason they are shoving the skill lines/classes in is to force people to buy. That is shady if ever I saw it. Paying for new abilities and strengths hmmm... Slippery slope.

Other MMOs do it: Well, yes, they do. But does that mean that ESO should? No. Other MMOs are heavily P2W, offer level boosts and things unobtainable in game. ESO prides itself on being better or different, and only offering cosmetics/utility.

Paywalled sets already exist: Yes, but sets provide much less a major change than an entire class does. Sets can be replaced and gained easily, a class offers massive functionality differences that shakes up the entire meta quite heavily. Honestly I think everything should be BOP, except maybe vMA/perfect Asylum weapons. If people want to spend their time farming money/sets, they should be able to trade freely.

Progression is needed: This is the only really valid argument. Progression is needed else the game would grow stale. But we can do that without shoving things behind a pay wall. The CP system being more than a mindless statfest comes to mind. Imagine the new player entering and realizing to be top tier they have to buy 4 different DLCs off the bat (Currently they don't.)

In my eyes it is short sighted and unnecessary, locking major features behind paywalls builds up, it stops being play your way.

OutLaw_Nynx

This is a p2w cry post though lol

ak_pvp

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

This is a p2w cry post though lol

Did you read it tho. I don't think the stuff = win. I think the stuff = hypermonetization which ruins the image and screws over lowbies who get involved and see the barrage of stuff to buy.

Its not a F2P freemium game, and shouldn't be treated as such. An example would be Clash Royal the mobile game. The things you buy can be replaced and are balanced so they don't really make you win. F2P can be just as good as a paying player. But has the tacky buy2progress feeling.

Dracane

Posts like these need to stop. What would be the point in releasing a new dlc or expansion, where there is nothing new in it ? Story and quests. etc are nice, but there needs to be more. Having new sets etc. is perfectly valid and every game does it.
ZoS also released quite some features and sets, that are available for everyone in the base game, for free.

I don't see any room for complains here.

Colecovision

At $40 for a DLC I was with you. But right now, for the people that didn't pick-up morrowind yet, it's literally $30 for both MW and Summerset. I think if you look the steam store and see whats out there for $15 - $30, this is a surprisingly good deal. Imo, with regard to the current community, people should buy this as basic participation in the progression of the game. If they really don't want to, that's okay, but I've lost sympathy for the "paywall" concern. It's technically still a paywall, but I'd like the game to progress, the value is there and people need to be reasonable.

Juju_beans

The sub is optional and with that are incentives..namely access to the dlc's and their benefits.

You can also buy the dlc if you want.

But ZOS has to make money somehow since a sub to this game is optional.
Those who just buy the base game and play for free know what they are getting into and what they will miss.

There has to be incentive to sub via eso+ or buy the dlc's if you don't.

Jhalin

For things like new classes and strong active skills, it does seem skeevy to require real money payment. I still think Crowns should be useable to by the basic Chapter, so anyone who subs to ESO+ can access them through their sub (indrectly) but would be still be encouraged to make a real-money purchase to get those CE bonuses.

However, paywalled features are nothing new to MMOs, and for the most part ESO's implementation of paywalled abilities isn't really as drastic as other games. CWC's Transmutation (arguably the most important change for endgame players to-date) can be accessed by most players who are part of a decent sized guild, as it's available in-game to any master crafter. I imagine jewelry crafting will follow this same route, though depending on how the materials are gathered (if it's in the Summerset zone exclusively) it might be pricier to the standard player.

I think attaching the equivalent of a class skill line to a DLC is a poor choice for inspiring trust in the playerbase, but again, from the few abilities they've previewed, it seems to be a line that will find use almost exclusively in PvP. Other DLCs found exclusive use in PvE, as features that aid players in making money, so arguments could be made that this is nothing new.

Another trade off for active abilities is that other things on the bar must be sacrificed to integrate them into a build, as opposed to the passive abilities we've had thusfar, which only require sacrificing a few skillpoints.


tl;dr Paywalled features are not new to the MMO genre, and new active skills being introduced require more tradeoff than passive skills did from previous DLC lines.

So far all craft features are still available to non-owners of DLC (ex CWC Transmutation Stations in most large guild's master crafter resident, and sellable crafted sets), so Jewelry crafting will probably follow in that pattern.

Yes, it's sort of sketchy for a PvP focused skill line and class to be behind a paywall without any way to access it via in-game action or ESO+ sub. But again, this is common in the genre to encourage purchases.

ak_pvp

Dracane wrote: »

Posts like these need to stop. What would be the point in releasing a new dlc or expansion, where there is nothing new in it ? Story and quests. etc are nice, but there needs to be more. Having new sets etc. is perfectly valid and every game does it.
ZoS also released quite some features and sets, that are available for everyone in the base game, for free.

I don't see any room for complains here.

Juju_beans wrote: »

The sub is optional and with that are incentives..namely access to the dlc's and their benefits.

You can also buy the dlc if you want.

But ZOS has to make money somehow since a sub to this game is optional.
Those who just buy the base game and play for free know what they are getting into and what they will miss.

There has to be incentive to sub via eso+ or buy the dlc's if you don't.

More content, unique but non interfering things like BGs, ICP, raids, systems like TG/DB. All things that add to the game without detracting from those who don't. They should probably focus on getting the full zone done too, more people would buy it then. Come on, use your imagination.

You can see its a cheap sales tactic to put things that are going to be effective outside their respective areas (TG raid systems and DB sacrements aren't) to force people to buy it who otherwise wouldn't have. If they offer more, they get more. BGs are quite a large success for that matter. Don't offer anything major outside of the game modes, but good enough that people like it and would buy for it alone.

ak_pvp

Jhalin wrote: »

For things like new classes and strong active skills, it does seem skeevy to require real money payment. I still think Crowns should be useable to by the basic Chapter, so anyone who subs to ESO+ can access them through their sub (indrectly) but would be still be encouraged to make a real-money purchase to get those CE bonuses.

However, paywalled features are nothing new to MMOs, and for the most part ESO's implementation of paywalled abilities isn't really as drastic as other games. CWC's Transmutation (arguably the most important change for endgame players to-date) can be accessed by most players who are part of a decent sized guild, as it's available in-game to any master crafter. I imagine jewelry crafting will follow this same route, though depending on how the materials are gathered (if it's in the Summerset zone exclusively) it might be pricier to the standard player.

I think attaching the equivalent of a class skill line to a DLC is a poor choice for inspiring trust in the playerbase, but again, from the few abilities they've previewed, it seems to be a line that will find use almost exclusively in PvP. Other DLCs found exclusive use in PvE, as features that aid players in making money, so arguments could be made that this is nothing new.

Another trade off for active abilities is that other things on the bar must be sacrificed to integrate them into a build, as opposed to the passive abilities we've had thusfar, which only require sacrificing a few skillpoints.


tl;dr Paywalled features are not new to the MMO genre, and new active skills being introduced require more tradeoff than passive skills did from previous DLC lines.

So far all craft features are still available to non-owners of DLC (ex CWC Transmutation Stations in most large guild's master crafter resident, and sellable crafted sets), so Jewelry crafting will probably follow in that pattern.

Yes, it's sort of sketchy for a PvP focused skill line and class to be behind a paywall without any way to access it via in-game action or ESO+ sub. But again, this is common in the genre to encourage purchases.

Pretty much my thoughts. Its not that its majorly unfair or anything. Its not. It just smells like milking the game. Also I doubt the skills are going to be heavily PvP anyway. The ult seems like a mini battle roar, the time stop is an AoE snare/root, but its placed (So can be dodged/moved from before it roots.) And not sure about meditation.

Woeler

If you buy a new car, do you then also complain to the dealer after two years when he doesn't give you the newest air-conditioning unit and board-computer for free? Even though you know full well it takes time, effort, people and money to design, build and test these electronics.

It's ok, because in the real world people don't work for free. Buying the base game entitles you to one thing, the base game, WYSIWYG.

srfrogg23

It’s not that uncommon to MMOs. Hell, most are worse. They have entire level brackets locked behind an expansion, along with new races, classes, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, gear...and on and on, etc.

That being said, the customer base is pretty varied in what it’s willing to pay for. Sure, some would buy an expansion just to get a new zone, but others need something more substantial than that before they’ll crack open their wallets. A business doesn’t work to minimize sales, they try to maximize sales. So, they put a variety of things in the product in an attempt to appeal to the widest variety of interests possible.

It’s elementary my dear Watson.

Joy_Division

Unless Matt, Gina, Eric, and the rest of the team are going to wake up every morning and drive to Zeni studios out of the kindness of their heart, then there are going to have to be "paywalls" to motivate them to keep going to work.

Avran_Sylt

While I'm unsure of how much they actually make from Crown Crates (and how much of their revenue goes to their parent company, Zenimax), This source of income is highly volatile.

ESO+ is a monthly payment and acts somewhat like a subscription, but what it offers are QoL changes, nothing exceedingly significant. Players don't have to pay this and as such, there are players who won't. Playing ESO as a one time purchase game.

So this is their version of a subscription requirement for all players. Yearly and at a lower cost, and generally a more reliable source (but I would assume a lower yield). However, like ESO+, it isn't a requirement to purchase, as even with an older edition, you can still play the game. Allowing a portion of the community to still play this game as a one time purchase. (Very easy to do if you're a PvP centric player).

In order to get a "subscription" from players who are using the game resources, but still playing off of their first time purchase, new content (That can't be traded between players) will be squirreled away in these expansions. That's why they exist behind a paywall.

In terms of why expansions are not included in ESO+, I can only assume it's so players can't just do a one-month purchase of ESO+ in order to get access to the features or skills they're missing out on for a cheaper price. (Battlegrounds is a mystery though, I don't know why it wasn't integrated into ESO+ on Morrowind release).

NecroEnzo

*** game, obvious manipulation of gamers by developers (tedious grinding to access competitive sector of the game, crates, Re-neging on ESO plus calling DLC "Expansions", "Feature, not a bug"), poor development, poor network, and more too lazy to list.

Took half a year to get reforging traits and you have to exploit with mail full tactic to make it worthwhile. New jewelry crafting... that had been begged for since... shortly after release.

Is anyone seriously shocked that there's a new gated skill line? As if the Emp skill line wasn't already stupid (REEEEEE let's give the top players *** to make the disadvantage even MORE egregious!).

Solution: Don't play corporate MMORPGS. Go play on a Star Wars galaxy emu server or wait till Ashes of Creation launches (although they've made some pretty fundamental mistakes already that basic comms latency will make apparent).

ak_pvp

Woeler wrote: »

If you buy a new car, do you then also complain to the dealer after two years when he doesn't give you the newest air-conditioning unit and board-computer for free? Even though you know full well it takes time, effort, people and money to design, build and test these electronics.

It's ok, because in the real world people don't work for free. Buying the base game entitles you to one thing, the base game, WYSIWYG.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Unless Matt, Gina, Eric, and the rest of the team are going to wake up every morning and drive to Zeni studios out of the kindness of their heart, then there are going to have to be "paywalls" to motivate them to keep going to work.

What a bad comparison. The devs will still be payed. The company will still make enough without putting balance related additions in. You both know that.

Why don't we just add buyable vMA then. More money for zos, yeah. Took people to create it. And if the user has the money. Why not?

Drachenfier

Back in my day we were required to pay a sub AND pay for every xpac. While fighting monsters uphill in the snow both ways.

You greedy millennials don't know how good you have it

Scorpiodisc

ak_pvp wrote: »

ZOS is a business: Yes, they are, and they make more than enough money from cosmetics, crown crates, utilities, housing and the like.

Not how a business works. No business out there ever says "We are making enough money. Time to start giving all of our new stuff away."

ak_pvp

Scorpiodisc wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

ZOS is a business: Yes, they are, and they make more than enough money from cosmetics, crown crates, utilities, housing and the like.

Not how a business works. No business out there ever says "We are making enough money. Time to start giving all of our new stuff away."

I am well aware. But you'd think a company that got blasted for doing something similar on launch and then with all the SWBF2 stuff would think, maybe we shouldn't do that.

As I said, I'm buying it anyway. I have played all the other DLCs and enjoyed them, and would buy even if the psijic line didn't exist. (Seems a little lackluster anyway, but that is also due to having to prevent p2w.)

Scorpiodisc

ak_pvp wrote: »

Scorpiodisc wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

ZOS is a business: Yes, they are, and they make more than enough money from cosmetics, crown crates, utilities, housing and the like.

Not how a business works. No business out there ever says "We are making enough money. Time to start giving all of our new stuff away."

I am well aware. But you'd think a company that got blasted for doing something similar on launch and then with all the SWBF2 stuff would think, maybe we shouldn't do that.

As I said, I'm buying it anyway. I have played all the other DLCs and enjoyed them, and would buy even if the psijic line didn't exist. (Seems a little lackluster anyway, but that is also due to having to prevent p2w.)

This is nothing like the SWBF2 situation and you know it.

Tandor

If you don't want to pay for the game, don't play the game.

It's really as simple as that. The days when developers could afford to produce a game and add regular content to it for no more than the odd potion purchase in the cash shop are long gone. Sadly, the days when players didn't feel they had an entitlement to everything for nothing are seemingly also long gone.

Now, if a new class or skill line was truly P2W (as some claimed of the warden before they'd even seen the class, not that they apologised to ZOS or withdrew their claim once they saw how average it was), and it was only available in the crown store or as a rare drop in the crown crates then you'd have a point. As it is, you haven't.

At this stage you have absolutely no idea whether or not the new skill line is a "balance related feature", and since when was a charge for an expansion/chapter/DLC (call it what you will) a "paywall"? Why should those who don't want to pay for Summerset get all the same additional content as those who do pay for it? Did you consider Morrowind P2W behind a paywall because you wouldn't get the extra skill points from skyshards if you didn't buy it?

As for your argument that charging for additional content stops the game being "play your way", that's just laughable. On the back of the original ESO box "Play the way you like" was stated to be about adventuring alone or together with friends. On the back of the Tamriel Unlimited box it had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege or explore". Nowhere has it ever been stated as "Play all the content the game has to offer and choose whether or not to pay for it".

ak_pvp

Tandor wrote: »

If you don't want to pay for the game, don't play the game.

It's really as simple as that. The days when developers could afford to produce a game and add regular content to it for no more than the odd potion purchase in the cash shop are long gone. Sadly, the days when players didn't feel they had an entitlement to everything for nothing are seemingly also long gone.

Now, if a new class or skill line was truly P2W (as some claimed of the warden before they'd even seen the class, not that they apologised to ZOS or withdrew their claim once they saw how average it was), and it was only available in the crown store or as a rare drop in the crown crates then you'd have a point. As it is, you haven't.

At this stage you have absolutely no idea whether or not the new skill line is a "balance related feature", and since when was a charge for an expansion/chapter/DLC (call it what you will) a "paywall"? Why should those who don't want to pay for Summerset get all the same additional content as those who do pay for it? Did you consider Morrowind P2W behind a paywall because you wouldn't get the extra skill points from skyshards if you didn't buy it?

As for your argument that charging for additional content stops the game being "play your way", that's just laughable. On the back of the original ESO box "Play the way you like" was stated to be about adventuring alone or together with friends. On the back of the Tamriel Unlimited box it had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege or explore". Nowhere has it ever been stated as "Play all the content the game has to offer and choose whether or not to pay for it".

Ayyy...

Another one who didn't read my post. Not even the edit tbh. I don't think its P2W. Nothing makes it win. Most commenters are shoving fingers in their ears and like you missing the point.

It feels tacky. That is all. Its saying "buy, or get left out, even out of the bounds of the new DLC."

"Everything for nothing." This shows how little you read. Leaving balance out of it is very different to "gib me everything." Cosmetics, zones, stories, new features like BGs, TG heists, blade of woe etc are all fine.

Bevik

Honestly who are actually end gamers they are going to get Summerset anyway and most probably own all the DLCs and/or subscribers and got Morrowind aswell.

From business wise it's a brilliant model to have things locked behind DLCs, Chapters. And I don't mind giving them my money until they roll out quality content with quality updates. I'm only playing since last April but since then the game is just better and better. A lot of MMOs not achieved these things yet what ZOS did.

I have played a Korean MMO with all the free upgrades which was actually subscription at the beginning went to Free to Play, then turned into a Free to Pay as the store was full of Pay to Win items. Sure you coulnd't buy boss weapons or jewellery straight but you could buy "crates".

Before we all start cry about P2W, because I see threads about this daily better think a bit what is better. ESO business model with DLCs, Chapters + Cosmetic store or the other way where all the updates are free and a Day 1 player running with a maxed char with all the gold end game gear. The choice is yours.

xenoterracide

I agree with the Imperial and the Warden (and jewelry if it won't be main-ed) I don't agree with psijic and any other quest line based skillset. You should have to go through the quests to do it. I don't think this is p2w though, I don't think paying for Warden or Imperial will make it any more likely that you win. I feel this way doubly about the Imperial and am frustrated that you can't start an Imperial even if you're Subbed, and I've bought every plot centric DLC/(not a DLC/Chapter), so that seems like some super greedy BS that there's a race I can't play.

KingYogi415

If 30$ is a problem for you, playing a MMO should be the least of your worries!

Tandor

ak_pvp wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

If you don't want to pay for the game, don't play the game.

It's really as simple as that. The days when developers could afford to produce a game and add regular content to it for no more than the odd potion purchase in the cash shop are long gone. Sadly, the days when players didn't feel they had an entitlement to everything for nothing are seemingly also long gone.

Now, if a new class or skill line was truly P2W (as some claimed of the warden before they'd even seen the class, not that they apologised to ZOS or withdrew their claim once they saw how average it was), and it was only available in the crown store or as a rare drop in the crown crates then you'd have a point. As it is, you haven't.

At this stage you have absolutely no idea whether or not the new skill line is a "balance related feature", and since when was a charge for an expansion/chapter/DLC (call it what you will) a "paywall"? Why should those who don't want to pay for Summerset get all the same additional content as those who do pay for it? Did you consider Morrowind P2W behind a paywall because you wouldn't get the extra skill points from skyshards if you didn't buy it?

As for your argument that charging for additional content stops the game being "play your way", that's just laughable. On the back of the original ESO box "Play the way you like" was stated to be about adventuring alone or together with friends. On the back of the Tamriel Unlimited box it had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege or explore". Nowhere has it ever been stated as "Play all the content the game has to offer and choose whether or not to pay for it".

Ayyy...

Another one who didn't read my post. Not even the edit tbh. I don't think its P2W. Nothing makes it win. Most commenters are shoving fingers in their ears and like you missing the point.

It feels tacky. That is all. Its saying "buy, or get left out, even out of the bounds of the new DLC."

"Everything for nothing." This shows how little you read. Leaving balance out of it is very different to "gib me everything." Cosmetics, zones, stories, new features like BGs, TG heists, blade of woe etc are all fine.

Please point to where I suggested you said that it was P2W. I said that if it was truly P2W (as compared to the warden which was claimed in advance to be P2W although it turned out not to be truly P2W at all), then you'd be entitled to complain if it was behind a paywall, but as you can't even say that it's a balance related feature let alone that it's behind a paywall (because it's paid-for additional content, not something restricted to the crown store or crown crates) then you don't have a point at all. Reading people's posts works both ways.

Grimm13

Every game has a paywall at some point, even the f2p which grants limited access unless you pay for advance access.

It is also very common in the games industry to have added content and features in new packs that you pay for. In ESO the DLC's are not free, you either pay a sub or buy them with crowns which takes real money.

zaria

ak_pvp wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

This is a p2w cry post though lol

Did you read it tho. I don't think the stuff = win. I think the stuff = hypermonetization which ruins the image and screws over lowbies who get involved and see the barrage of stuff to buy.

Its not a F2P freemium game, and shouldn't be treated as such. An example would be Clash Royal the mobile game. The things you buy can be replaced and are balanced so they don't really make you win. F2P can be just as good as a paying player. But has the tacky buy2progress feeling.

Try WOW, you can not touch any part of endgame without the last expansion and you have to pay an sub just to play causal.
You can not access the current dungeons and raids in wow without last expansion, and even if you did you would do an faction if their damage.

Jolipinator

This is a Learn to Pay issue.

ak_pvp

Jolipinator wrote: »

This is a Learn to Pay issue.

Pretty much is tbh. I can pay for it, but for those just starting it's a turn off when it seems a lot like pay or eat ***.

TelvanniWizard

DisgracefulMind

ak_pvp wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

If you buy a new car, do you then also complain to the dealer after two years when he doesn't give you the newest air-conditioning unit and board-computer for free? Even though you know full well it takes time, effort, people and money to design, build and test these electronics.

It's ok, because in the real world people don't work for free. Buying the base game entitles you to one thing, the base game, WYSIWYG.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Unless Matt, Gina, Eric, and the rest of the team are going to wake up every morning and drive to Zeni studios out of the kindness of their heart, then there are going to have to be "paywalls" to motivate them to keep going to work.

What a bad comparison. The devs will still be payed. The company will still make enough without putting balance related additions in. You both know that.

Why don't we just add buyable vMA then. More money for zos, yeah. Took people to create it. And if the user has the money. Why not?

As far as I know, just like MoL and HoF, you are required to have purchased the DLC to enter vMA. Or a sub. I'm okay with paying for massive expansions, however, because they attribute to profits for ZoS which enables more DLC for the future. I think this community needs to stop complaining about every little thing.