iketh wrote: »

OP is on the right track. I ended up here searching for stamsorc build that doesn't rely on dizzying swing. It doesn't exist. Dizzying swing is so damn boring. Stamsorcs need an alternative to dizzying swing.

It does exist, Its called dual wield/2h bleed build, and it is very popular nowadays.

Ladislao wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

iketh wrote: »

OP is on the right track. I ended up here searching for stamsorc build that doesn't rely on dizzying swing. It doesn't exist. Dizzying swing is so damn boring. Stamsorcs need an alternative to dizzying swing.

It does exist, Its called dual wield/2h bleed build, and it is very popular nowadays.

Do you even read the forum? DW is not viable and should be reworked. DOTs are not viable because auto-cleanse. Medium armor - nothing compared to heavy. And so on.

But, but..... your signature...

Danksta wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

iketh wrote: »

OP is on the right track. I ended up here searching for stamsorc build that doesn't rely on dizzying swing. It doesn't exist. Dizzying swing is so damn boring. Stamsorcs need an alternative to dizzying swing.

It does exist, Its called dual wield/2h bleed build, and it is very popular nowadays.

Do you even read the forum? DW is not viable and should be reworked. DOTs are not viable because auto-cleanse. Medium armor - nothing compared to heavy. And so on.

But, but..... your signature...

Actually I just quoted those people from the forum who liked to argue with me on the topic of viability

I was actually thinking about this today.

The only things that Warden doesn't have that a Stam Sorc does is Dark Deal and Implosion. But instead they get class damage abilities, a boatload more buffs and utility tools.

They are just as fast, deal more damage, and have better heal and resource sustain.

Probably the best way to buff Stam Sorc is to give them a new utility or damage tool in the Dark Magic tree. In particular a tool to help gain momentum in a fight.

Vapirko wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

stamsorc/stamDk doesn't need a spammable. I mean, yes they do, because the ones they have is either unreliable or bad.

A stamDK is naturall gonna use SnB, so they can at least use heroic slash weave to get the most out of what they're stuck with.

We are in the same boat with stamsorcs when it comes to spammables, we are stuck with the default, no back up options.

stamsorc is meant for high burst and mobility, they are the most effective class with dizzying swing builds.

But problem is, dizzying swing/wrecking blow are kind of unreliable.

and dual wield skills in general is a joke for open world PvP so I won't mention that.

But one thing is worth mentioning, crit surge makes stamsorc synergize extremely well with dual wield, resulting in a viable dual wield build for stamsorcs. Its niche but a dw stamsorc is definitely playable.

Instead of giving stamsorc a spammable, dizzying swing/wrecking blow needs to be buffed.

Well, flurry also could be a little faster too.

Especially the wrecking blow needs a buff tho. dizzying swing is somewhat fine and rewarding when you land it, but wrecking blow seriously lacks purpose.

Agreed more on these points. I think stam sorc survivability (yes i do play one a lot) is still ok thanks to crit surge and hurricane, the issue is more that you need those two slots and you still need rally or FM for heal or snare removal and you get the cross over fro the major brutality buff so you end up using a lot of slots for skills that have crossover. DW issue with stam sorc is the gap closer, even with a hurricane orc you will burst a lot of stamina down getting some place. 1v1 dw is pretty tight, 1vX or general open world not so much. The other issue wth DW is a hard CC, it doesnt really work to reverb bash and then bar swap and even then you're out rally or FM. You can still survive from the extra healing of blood craze and or blood thirst, but then you you still need to solve the hard CC problem. Rune prison is ok but it means you need a pretty good size magicka pool for it to be really effective in anyway against not potatoes. Stam sorc is still strong, and it wouldn't take much to bring it in line with the top classes. The damage passives, bound armaments, hurricane, critical surge, all synergize really well with the orc class and allow deep stat pools and high regen and horrific damage bursts via DBoS. What stam sorc lacks is that little bit of utility to face off against good players using most other classes. Ill prob get ripped for saying this, but I think a lot could be solved by buffing hurricane to 1) provide a little extra damage and 2) allow some kind of purge on cast. This along with a class execute, or class burst like stam morph of curse could go a long long way.

I am maining stamsorc for a really long time (basically since 1.4), PvP only though, and I disagree heavily with the suggestions provided by the poster you quoted. He is coming from the POV of a stamDK who would welcome any non-class related buff to stamsorc - exactly because he would be able to benefit from those changes as well on stamDK.

Not trying to discredit his motivation, stamDK needs help. But I think the very least thing stamsorc needs (which this topic seems to be about), is an indirect buff through weapon skill lines (we already excel at using those and amplifying their strength). Instead, we need exactly the opposite, surgical class innate changes that diversify and supplement our options to deliver and align damage.

I'm, not sure if this is a PvE focused thread, but I personally find that the only desperately needed change to stamsorc is making bound armor not taking up two slots and fixing the dark deal glitch that ignores being cc immune. I personally can state very confidently that no (not a single one) top PvP stamsorc on PC EU was ever utilizing wb/dizzy swing in their builds. This is a NA phenomenon that is not seen in PC EU. Dizzy swing is sub-optimal for a multitude of reasons (mainly being related to how your opponents are setup) and doesn't work on good players.

Ladislao wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

iketh wrote: »

OP is on the right track. I ended up here searching for stamsorc build that doesn't rely on dizzying swing. It doesn't exist. Dizzying swing is so damn boring. Stamsorcs need an alternative to dizzying swing.

It does exist, Its called dual wield/2h bleed build, and it is very popular nowadays.

Do you even read the forum? DW is not viable and should be reworked. DOTs are not viable because auto-cleanse. Medium armor - nothing compared to heavy. And so on.

I'm getting hit for more than 9-10k by blood craze , and that is just a single bleed.
If you think stamsorcs don't have any options that is your problem, and forums? seriously?

The forums that defend broken stamblades in their current state?

No thanks.

Liam12548 wrote: »

So I picked up stamsorc about two weeks ago, after 3000+ hours spent across all four of the other stam classes.

It feels like the most offensively OP class in the game, USING weapon skills. The passive damage coupled with the pressure from hurricane coupled with the extreme maneuverability coupled with the free, passive, hard hitting execute made it feel obscenely easy to play compared to every other stam class in no-cp, perhaps bar stam warden.

I don't really understand these "buff x" threads. They really need to become "balance x" threads.

Soo welcome to the stam sorc? I think no experienced player would argue that stamsorcs are complete and utter trash at the moment. But they might say that they are not what they used to be and stagnate mid tier with a lot of room upwards.

Personally, I feel great whenever I run a new build on any of my chars. At least until I spend enough time of it to fully explore it's weaknesses and limitations. I remember some patches back when I ran a subpar heavy armor + dw + resto dunmer stam sorc with invig. drain, just for fun. HA and resto Ult where better then, no doubt, and it felt really great to outlast and stomp noobs and pugs. But does that mean that build was somewhat great? No, it was fun mostly because it was something new that used a lot of cheese.

Don't get me wrong, this shouldn't come across offense, but I don't think that you fully explored the class after two weeks.
However, I can kind of agree that it's not (only) buffs that are needed, but rather rework to ensure this class meets it's concept. As soon as you tried out enough builds you'll realise how this dependency on weapon skills limit build variability and how bland the class really feels.

In other words, on a NB (and yes, I use them as bar for comparisons) I envision what I want to play, choose class skills and at the end I fill what's missing with non-class abilities. On stam sorc it's the complete opposite. I imagine how I want to roam cyro, see if weapon skills can offer me that and if not I need to go back to the drawing board. Stam Sorcs have some kind of identity crisis... no that's not the right word .... they just don''t feel really unique. If it wasn't for streak I would forget that it's not a classless template I run. While I can identify other players classes' miles ahead by most of their skills I only realize that I fight with/ against a stam sorc if he pops streak or hurricane.

Hurricane got gutted hard damage wise. Dark Deal now takes 40% longer to complete (don't get me started on how Constitution or Black Rose benefitted d/d back in the days). Surge went from burst to small (in pvP) hot. Streak got a fatigue and is now too easily countered by snares + gap closers. Rune Prison had a strong cost increase (60%+ iIrc) and went from a longtime disorient (god I loved this with DW) to a short stun. Atronach now sucks in no-cp. Overload storage gutted in half.

But main issue remains, the blandness, the dependency. With a few tweaks and very little buffs this class could be awesome.

The first thing I would tweak:

Bolt Escape:
If have some ideas for a spam and bound armor as well, but time is pressing on me, so I maybe add that later.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Soo welcome to the stam sorc? I think no experienced player would argue that stamsorcs are complete and utter trash at the moment. But they might say that they are not what they used to be and stagnate mid tier with a lot of room upwards.

So ? this is the perfect spot for any class, why ask for buffs to a mid tier class ?

I main stamsorc in PVP, and i would prefer a hundred times to work my ass slightly more to achieve the same result in a gratifying way, than to be in those poor stamden's place and receive "you are not worth anything without OP class" replies everytime you wreck someone in PVP.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

It's the perfect spot to be underperforming in comparison to half of the avaible class/resource combos? Don't think so. If they were all at the somewhat same level I would agree with you, but as long as some classes are far better or far worse than the rest they need to be brought in line. Either via nerfs to good classes or via buffs to everything that operates underneath their level (read: mid tier and bottom).

Or tell me, why do you think it's okay to have some classes perform so much better than others?

Since I'm not the one to call for nerfs, I rather ask for slight buffs.

It seems to me that in this situation it is better to nerf the strong classes and buff the weak ones. We're trying to achieve a balance, not disbalance, right?

Look,

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

It's the perfect spot to be underperforming in comparison to half of the avaible class/resource combos? Don't think so. If they were all at the somewhat same level I would agree with you, but as long as some classes are far better or far worse than the rest they need to be brought in line.

Either via nerfs to good classes or via buffs to everything that operates underneath their level (read: mid tier and bottom).

Or tell me, why do you think it's okay to have some classes perform so much better than others?

That's where we disagree, there may be 2-3 outliers (stamwarden ? stamblade ? even there the amount of imbalance is a matter of opinion) but i really don't think classes are that much far apart. (I may be wrong)

Since I'm not the one to call for nerfs, I rather ask for slight buffs.

When people say

Just buff half the classes a little

I read

We tried getting that other class nerfed but people yelled at us so now we are asking for buffs instead, who could be against buff ?!

Buffing a class affect all classes equally because the game balance is shared by everyone

Qbiken wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

iketh wrote: »

OP is on the right track. I ended up here searching for stamsorc build that doesn't rely on dizzying swing. It doesn't exist. Dizzying swing is so damn boring. Stamsorcs need an alternative to dizzying swing.

It does exist, Its called dual wield/2h bleed build, and it is very popular nowadays.

Do you even read the forum? DW is not viable and should be reworked. DOTs are not viable because auto-cleanse. Medium armor - nothing compared to heavy. And so on.

I'm getting hit for more than 9-10k by blood craze , and that is just a single bleed.
If you think stamsorcs don't have any options that is your problem, and forums? seriously?

The forums that defend broken stamblades in their current state?

No thanks.

9-10k single bleeds? Empowered Flurry with vMA weapons?? Would be interested to see those recaps.

master dw actually. vMA dw is trash.

well you are totaly wrong with stamina teplar in pvp, at 1st using templar purge for cure snare mean you are OOM in couple of seconds, much beter is use momentum from 2h to prevent it, tru we have rune focus to boost your rezistance but it force us sta on one place, on other side you as stamina sorc have Bound Armaments which is permabuff. As stamina teplar i have nothing to get major brutilati form class skill, i ma forced use momentum from 2h which force me to use 2h which is huge dps lost for my biting jab skill, you on other side have surge which give you major brutality little selfheal and cost stamina, then you are not forced to use 2h as main weapon. Ad when we tolking about major savagery from bitting, well crit are useles agais decent player in PvP anyway, and in PvE you use pots to get your crit and weapon dmg boosted. stamina teplar compared to stamina sorc have only one superior skill and its Power of the Light. You as sorc have 20% boost to stamina recovery onyl by sloting bound armor, stam templar have reptence ... which as posive is *** bc have some buff as pots and drain stamina and healt from dead is not good as look on paper, and on body can by drain only by one templar ..... and well snare on biting look prety great, if you forgot most of stamina player and tank using momentum to prevent snare ... Overal stamina sorc are in much beter position then stamina templar in PvP and in PvE too and you want buff

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

So I picked up stamsorc about two weeks ago, after 3000+ hours spent across all four of the other stam classes.

It feels like the most offensively OP class in the game, USING weapon skills. The passive damage coupled with the pressure from hurricane coupled with the extreme maneuverability coupled with the free, passive, hard hitting execute made it feel obscenely easy to play compared to every other stam class in no-cp, perhaps bar stam warden.

I don't really understand these "buff x" threads. They really need to become "balance x" threads.

Soo welcome to the stam sorc? I think no experienced player would argue that stamsorcs are complete and utter trash at the moment. But they might say that they are not what they used to be and stagnate mid tier with a lot of room upwards.

Personally, I feel great whenever I run a new build on any of my chars. At least until I spend enough time of it to fully explore it's weaknesses and limitations. I remember some patches back when I ran a subpar heavy armor + dw + resto dunmer stam sorc with invig. drain, just for fun. HA and resto Ult where better then, no doubt, and it felt really great to outlast and stomp noobs and pugs. But does that mean that build was somewhat great? No, it was fun mostly because it was something new that used a lot of cheese.

Don't get me wrong, this shouldn't come across offense, but I don't think that you fully explored the class after two weeks.
However, I can kind of agree that it's not (only) buffs that are needed, but rather rework to ensure this class meets it's concept. As soon as you tried out enough builds you'll realise how this dependency on weapon skills limit build variability and how bland the class really feels.

In other words, on a NB (and yes, I use them as bar for comparisons) I envision what I want to play, choose class skills and at the end I fill what's missing with non-class abilities. On stam sorc it's the complete opposite. I imagine how I want to roam cyro, see if weapon skills can offer me that and if not I need to go back to the drawing board. Stam Sorcs have some kind of identity crisis... no that's not the right word .... they just don''t feel really unique. If it wasn't for streak I would forget that it's not a classless template I run. While I can identify other players classes' miles ahead by most of their skills I only realize that I fight with/ against a stam sorc if he pops streak or hurricane.

Hurricane got gutted hard damage wise. Dark Deal now takes 40% longer to complete (don't get me started on how Constitution or Black Rose benefitted d/d back in the days). Surge went from burst to small (in pvP) hot. Streak got a fatigue and is now too easily countered by snares + gap closers. Rune Prison had a strong cost increase (60%+ iIrc) and went from a longtime disorient (god I loved this with DW) to a short stun. Atronach now sucks in no-cp. Overload storage gutted in half.

But main issue remains, the blandness, the dependency. With a few tweaks and very little buffs this class could be awesome.

The first thing I would tweak:

Bolt Escape:

It's purpose is to close and create gaps. While closing gaps is far easier with a real gap closer (no fatigue, longer range, target locked + snared) it's mainly used to stun, sometimes to pull out of stealth and obviously to create distance/ los. However, creating distance is not easy if you're snared and if the opponent spams gap closers while you can't spam streak bc of it's cost increase.

To ensure it fullfills it purpose I'd add a snare removal to the base skill. With it's steep fatigue you can't spam it and become perma-immune, even if a short immunity would be added as well.
Streak is the offensive move but you can use it only ever so often, especially if you use d/d and surge as well. It's purpose is clearly to stun offensively and close gaps. Other gap closers have no fatigue. So there should be no fatigue or even a fatigue reset if you actually hit someone with streak. Running away would still be as punishing but this becomes closer to a real gap closer.
Ball of Lightning is cleary desgined for defensive purpose. While they can't shoot you in the back they can just gc spam you and you won't get away. Add a gap closer immunity while the absorb is up. No offensive gain, but it ensures you're escape.

If have some ideas for a spam and bound armor as well, but time is pressing on me, so I maybe add that later.

In two weeks I've spent 100+ hours in open world & bgs, and approx. 30-40 getting skill points, getting undaunted 9, leveling all skill lines, etc.

Ive 1v5d open world, 2v10d open world, had more bgs matches with 20+ kills and no deaths than I can count, etc all on a class I just started playing.

To be honest, when looking at class toolkits as a whole and their strengths and weaknesses, there isn't much stam sorc lacks in comparison to others. They have hands down the best sustain in the game. Dark deal literally cannot be compared to anything, and now you can free cast it 3 times whenever you get cc immunity. Even after the duration nerf and extra clunkiness being added, using it is a piece of cake. Across all 5 stam classes, sorc is the only one I can play with less than 1200 recovery in medium armor and not worry about sustain. Hurricane doesn't need to be dealing more damage, because it gives minor expedition (highest mobility class in the game), major defenses, and all relevant sorc passives for slotting/using. Surge was ridiculously strong pre nerf(s), and now functions well as an extra hot. Previously this skill could make certain stamsorcs nearly ukillable 1v1.

Now let's not forget this: sorc is the only class in the game with access to a 3rd bar of skills. I can literally run everything I want on my bars, then throw caltrops, trap, Rapids, etc on the overload bar and use them whenever I am repositioning or preparing to fight outnumbered. This in itself gives SUCH a massive advantage for outnumbered play to stamsorc vs the other stam classes.

You said it yourself though. Stam sorc is a mid tier class, and as such should be balanced. I'd say as far as stam classes go right now, the outlier is clearly stam warden whose burst, survivability, and ulti gen set it a step above the rest. Stamina nightblade could be a contender for being "OP" as well, but that's a separate set of capabilities affecting that classes balance that cannot really be compared to the other classes capabilities.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

stamsorc/stamDk doesn't need a spammable. I mean, yes they do, because the ones they have is either unreliable or bad.

A stamDK is naturall gonna use SnB, so they can at least use heroic slash weave to get the most out of what they're stuck with.

We are in the same boat with stamsorcs when it comes to spammables, we are stuck with the default, no back up options.

stamsorc is meant for high burst and mobility, they are the most effective class with dizzying swing builds.

But problem is, dizzying swing/wrecking blow are kind of unreliable.

and dual wield skills in general is a joke for open world PvP so I won't mention that.

But one thing is worth mentioning, crit surge makes stamsorc synergize extremely well with dual wield, resulting in a viable dual wield build for stamsorcs. Its niche but a dw stamsorc is definitely playable.

Instead of giving stamsorc a spammable, dizzying swing/wrecking blow needs to be buffed.

Well, flurry also could be a little faster too.

Especially the wrecking blow needs a buff tho. dizzying swing is somewhat fine and rewarding when you land it, but wrecking blow seriously lacks purpose.

Agreed more on these points. I think stam sorc survivability (yes i do play one a lot) is still ok thanks to crit surge and hurricane, the issue is more that you need those two slots and you still need rally or FM for heal or snare removal and you get the cross over fro the major brutality buff so you end up using a lot of slots for skills that have crossover. DW issue with stam sorc is the gap closer, even with a hurricane orc you will burst a lot of stamina down getting some place. 1v1 dw is pretty tight, 1vX or general open world not so much. The other issue wth DW is a hard CC, it doesnt really work to reverb bash and then bar swap and even then you're out rally or FM. You can still survive from the extra healing of blood craze and or blood thirst, but then you you still need to solve the hard CC problem. Rune prison is ok but it means you need a pretty good size magicka pool for it to be really effective in anyway against not potatoes. Stam sorc is still strong, and it wouldn't take much to bring it in line with the top classes. The damage passives, bound armaments, hurricane, critical surge, all synergize really well with the orc class and allow deep stat pools and high regen and horrific damage bursts via DBoS. What stam sorc lacks is that little bit of utility to face off against good players using most other classes. Ill prob get ripped for saying this, but I think a lot could be solved by buffing hurricane to 1) provide a little extra damage and 2) allow some kind of purge on cast. This along with a class execute, or class burst like stam morph of curse could go a long long way.

I am maining stamsorc for a really long time (basically since 1.4), PvP only though, and I disagree heavily with the suggestions provided by the poster you quoted. He is coming from the POV of a stamDK who would welcome any non-class related buff to stamsorc - exactly because he would be able to benefit from those changes as well on stamDK.

Not trying to discredit his motivation, stamDK needs help. But I think the very least thing stamsorc needs (which this topic seems to be about), is an indirect buff through weapon skill lines (we already excel at using those and amplifying their strength). Instead, we need exactly the opposite, surgical class innate changes that diversify and supplement our options to deliver and align damage.

I'm, not sure if this is a PvE focused thread, but I personally find that the only desperately needed change to stamsorc is making bound armor not taking up two slots and fixing the dark deal glitch that ignores being cc immune. I personally can state very confidently that no (not a single one) top PvP stamsorc on PC EU was ever utilizing wb/dizzy swing in their builds. This is a NA phenomenon that is not seen in PC EU. Dizzy swing is sub-optimal for a multitude of reasons (mainly being related to how your opponents are setup) and doesn't work on good players.

Good points. Stam sorcs still hit like freight trains. Would you put bound armaments as a normal timed buff then? That could definitely work. Having even one extra slot open for another utility skill would go a hell of a long way. For solo play imo stam sorcs kind of lose their punch without bound armaments. Then make a cc stamina morph of crystal frags with a shorter range to replace dizzy swing and fix dd to make it reliable as you say. That would be pretty damn close to fixed.