ascan7 wrote: »

- Incap is too strong.
- Blur and morphs are used almost by no one. Maybe we need to redesign the ability. Make it more useful for tanks?

these types of comments destroy not only builds but the entire nightblade class and stealth rouge type play we have.
its not fair.
i use skills on nightblade that maybe you dont use and you dont like but that is zero reason to claim that the skill is used by no one and or is over powered.
complete unfairness to come here on threads like these meant to help nightblade class and make comments that destroy builds and playstyles based on reasons that you simply don't like and or don't use OR think it is Too Strong.

BohnT wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Can't believe people are actually defending the atrocious state siphoning attacks is in right now.

No resource/sustain skill should cost the same resource that it returns. Ever. That's exactly why they removed the cost from netch during morrowind testing - because an ability meant to help you get resources back is useless if it costs that resource to begin with.

Math, do you know it?
The skill costs what 1100k stamina?
When using the ability you gain 120 stamina on every light attack + a good heal.
After the full duration you gain 4200 stamina.
So let's do the math:
You gain 20*120 stamina+ 4200 stamina= 6200 stamina
6200-1100=5500
5500/10= 550 ---> you gain 550 regen with perfect weaving or 310 if you don't hit any light attack

Try using it on a tank build and see just how terrible it is. No tank can predict 20 seconds onto the future that they'll need the stamina return. Tanks do not have the luxury of constantly mashing light attacks. The ability is a net loss for nb tanks now, where prior to the nerf it was the core of all nightblade tanking builds.

But hey, keep agreeing with these kinds of changes and see what kind of pothole your class ends up in.

assassin skill line:
please note: the nightblade skill lines in eso that are similar to those i mention below simply aren't what stealth and alteration and illusion are like in the elderscrolls SP series. although there are some similarities in the current nightblade abilities and skill lines they simply are Heavily lacking in stealth abilities, here are a few examples of expanding that assassin skill line we currently have.

Darkness: the ability to create darkness and shade and blend in with the environment around you - You are harder to detect in dark areas.
the ability to blend in with a colorfull area mirroring the area you are at with foliage aperiance similar to the situation and areas your forced to blend with.

noise:
the ability to silence your every movement, including combat sounds. and sneaking sounds and walking and even fast paced running sounds.
NOTE:Noise may be used to distract enemies or lead them away from your position in order to maintain stealth. For instance, shoot an arrow at a wall close to your target but far away from you and the enemy will investigate the noise--allowing time to leave or continue shooting.

Backstab: skill line When making a stealth attack on an enemy, your weapon does extra damage. you are able to perform these on moving targets and there are several abilities associated with its skill line and abilities. and several choices of cutting the throat, or ribs, or legs ect ect ...

an alteration:
altering the environment around you with a sence of calm and relaxation so your target and completely relaxed and softened, thus your sting of Death has a Greater chance of reaching the deepest portions of the Targets Mind.

an invisibility:
skill line that allows for a toggle of invisibility that even is unable to be broken by Any means.
the ability to become mist form like a small fog making it completely impossible to search you out even in very small quarters.

Illusion:
Illusion is the field of magic which prides itself on tom-foolery and faking people out.

Muffle:
While most spells require you to actively use them in combat situations or on specific objects to progress, there is at least one spell that doesn't: Muffle. Muffle is an Illusion spell that quiets your movements.

Hypnotic Gaze:
even when your subject Has found you and you have zero chance of stealthing yourself, you are able to meld thier thinking and skills become inactive due to your OverWhelming presence and poise of manirism that is like unto a King Cobra's ability in open battle.

Very High Speeds in both sneak and running.
this skill line should open up greater as you become able to escape after killing an enemy within a large group.
thus allowing for complete escape.

Quiet Casting:
your every spell and even healing is silenced and muffled ...

please add these skill lines to our nightblade class.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

these types of comments destroy not only builds but the entire nightblade class and stealth rouge type play we have.
its not fair.

A nerf on nightblades is going to happen. Look at what ZOS did to other classes and it's pretty clear they are gonna nerf nightblades.
Now, i'd like to see a smart nerf, not something like what happened to other classes.
Incap is overloaded. It's a fact. I'd like to see incap nerfed, instead of them nerfing other skills that are fine.
Blur is underused. It's weak. I didn't ask for a nerf. I asked for a redesign. What is blur? a tank ability? a PvP ability? it's in the assassination tree, so maybe it could boost damage? Right now, it just feel very subpar and without focus.

I used to tank on my NB. I did a little PVP but was 99% PVE, this has probably swapped to more of an 80/20 split in favour of PVE after finding BG's.

I don't know enough about magblade to comment.

My minor concern with stamblade is I only slot 3 or 4 class skills. This means that between 66% & 75% of my skills are non-class, because they are (simply put) better. The change is either Flawless Dawnbreaker or Soul harvest. Soul Harvest better with trash, FD better on bosses.

My main concerns are tank & healer. Neither role is represented anywhere near 20% of the time in any content requiring defined roles.

NB healer - I don't know enough about these either, i've not tried them. I feel one of the reasons they don't exist is the targetting system of malevolent offering. It's probably great when you are duoing but put 11 other targets on the screen, hidden behind a wall of mobs and it's going to be far too clunky to use. It should probably just pulse to the person on the lowest % of health in your group whilst it's running.

NB tank - removed with the change to siphoning strikes. There have been essays written about these by people a lot better than I. There are currently three defining roles of a tank, resource management, crowd control and group utility. NB tanks are poor, none at best and poor. They need sets to make up the balance. DK & warden excell in all three categories allowing them to wear sets like alkosh or ebon. In addition, these two classes can permablock which is an enormous benefit to any class in this role. To make the classes balanced, either NB, templar & sorc tanks need a hand, or DK & warden need to be brought down a peg or two.

So what exactly happened with Morrowind? Siphoning used to have a chance to return resources when you damaged a mob. Sap Essence became a spammable for a NB tank when fighting 4 or more mobs, because when combined with magicka regen it would break even on the resources it was returning. This in turn provided the group with additional healing, annoying the mobs to be more likely to attack the NB tank. And even if they didnt't switch, it took some of the pressure off the healer because the mobs were running all over the place due to us not having a root. It was a balancing act, but when it worked, it worked well. NB tanks had group utility in the form of heals, and something that borderline resembled crowd control. Most of all, it was a ton of fun. The change to siphoning, impacted all three areas at once, which reduced their overall effectiveness to way below par.

Resource Management:
-Siphoning is not good for NB tanks. A minimum of 9 light attacks (seconds) to break even is not useful for a NB tank. It's unlikely they will get that in 20 seconds. Unfortunately a change here will massively impact NB DD who are actually in an OK place. I would suggest the skills changed to cost the opposite resource they return only.
-Execututioner is currently bugged.(not returning resources if you land the killing blow with an assasination ability) We won't know how well it works until it isn't. It's been this way since at least November without acknowledgement from ZOS. However it a) returns less resources than it costs, b) requires impecible timing and c) requires something to die. Due to a) it will always be in the category of 'don't bother trying to specially proc this'. I would like to see this changed to proc on dodge, either dodge roll or blur and resource return balanced accordingly. This will help out NB tank more than any other role. The random chance of dodge ties in nicely with the random chance we lost from siphoning.

Crowd control:
-none! we have fear, which makes mobs run all over the place, which is the opposite! I would like to see shades changed so one will attack the mob furthest from you and taunt it to attack you once per cast, and the other behaves as normal. Unfortuntely root & chains have become expected tanking skills. Root is available through volcanic rune, but it has a very small radius, a comparable to chains should also be a non-class skill.

Group Utility:
-put minor staminasteal on something. It's not in the game yet. Without wanting to help out NB DD due to them being in a good place, I'd somehow either try to tie it in to malevolent offering or shades

presumably:

assasination = damage
siphoning = healing
shadow = tank

Shadow tree does not have a lot to help tanking. It has a heal, damage, fear, cloak and two skills which help tanking directly.

Rename major evasion to be minor evasion across the board. Change one morph of cloak to be major evasion @ 35% dodge (4 secs)
Rework manfestation of terror to be PVE friendly
rework path to be more defensive. might be the place for minor stamina steal to be applied to mobs stanidn in it on one morph

Putting every change in place would result in currently a very OP NB tank, but I don't know what suggestions are around other classes in that role. Please treat all the above as brainstorming.

I would like to see fun returned to NB tank.

BohnT wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Can't believe people are actually defending the atrocious state siphoning attacks is in right now.

No resource/sustain skill should cost the same resource that it returns. Ever. That's exactly why they removed the cost from netch during morrowind testing - because an ability meant to help you get resources back is useless if it costs that resource to begin with.

Math, do you know it?
The skill costs what 1100k stamina?
When using the ability you gain 120 stamina on every light attack + a good heal.
After the full duration you gain 4200 stamina.
So let's do the math:
You gain 20*120 stamina+ 4200 stamina= 6200 stamina
6200-1100=5500
5500/10= 550 ---> you gain 550 regen with perfect weaving or 310 if you don't hit any light attack

The skill is viable for NB DD, and is currently pretty good for them. The cost should be switched though, costing magicka to restore stamina etc. Right now it takes 9 secs to break even with perfect weave.

But there are other roles in this game, healing and tanking which you seem to have forgotten, maybe because they are not played? Healers may not get the opportunity to perfect weave, and tanks will most certainly not. For your maths to work for NB tank, it needs changing to proc on any damage with 1 sec cooldown. Then there is still the issue of waiting 9 seconds to break even which is pretty poor. How's about putting a 9 sec delay on other class skills? chains maybe? damage? Have you tried NB tank?

The skill lines need splitting out ASAP, then they can be looked at wrt balance.

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

ascan7 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

these types of comments destroy not only builds but the entire nightblade class and stealth rouge type play we have.
its not fair.

A nerf on nightblades is going to happen. Look at what ZOS did to other classes and it's pretty clear they are gonna nerf nightblades.
Now, i'd like to see a smart nerf, not something like what happened to other classes.
Incap is overloaded. It's a fact. I'd like to see incap nerfed, instead of them nerfing other skills that are fine.
Blur is underused. It's weak. I didn't ask for a nerf. I asked for a redesign. What is blur? a tank ability? a PvP ability? it's in the assassination tree, so maybe it could boost damage? Right now, it just feel very subpar and without focus.

Blur is best suited for tanking. Our class representative needs to be knowledable in all areas of the class. Not just DD. NB healers & tanks are so rare, people are forgetting they exist. These two roles require more focus than DD right now.

If its suppose to be a tanking ability and NB tanks dont even exist then its obvious that blur isnt doing a very good job.

It's not the reason they don't exist, but yes. NB tanks don't have competitive class tools available to them in some (more important) areas.

DDuke wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Can't believe people are actually defending the atrocious state siphoning attacks is in right now.

No resource/sustain skill should cost the same resource that it returns. Ever. That's exactly why they removed the cost from netch during morrowind testing - because an ability meant to help you get resources back is useless if it costs that resource to begin with.

Math, do you know it?
The skill costs what 1100k stamina?
When using the ability you gain 120 stamina on every light attack + a good heal.
After the full duration you gain 4200 stamina.
So let's do the math:
You gain 20*120 stamina+ 4200 stamina= 6200 stamina
6200-1100=5500
5500/10= 550 ---> you gain 550 regen with perfect weaving or 310 if you don't hit any light attack

Now compare it to Elemental Drain which only requires you to have a DoT on target (no need to land light attacks), lasts 4 seconds longer, puts Major Breach on target & restores 300 magicka/second (i.e. "600 regen") not just to you, but to your allies as well while it costs nothing. Also activates important destro staff passives, if you didn't have those active before.

If we were looking at maximum magicka returned per cast...
Siphoning Attacks: [106(not 120 btw)*20]+4270=6390-973(cost with 5/1/1 Light)=5417
5417/20=270/s=540 "regen"

Elemental Drain: 300*24=7200
7200/24=300/s=600 "regen"


I don't think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes is quite good enough all things considered, which is why it doesn't get slotted that often.

Siphoning still gives you a strong heal over time which is often higher in healing total than swallow souls heal, works when no enemies are around to return resources, gives you great passives and you don't have to apply it to the enemy you attack beforehand.

DDuke wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Can't believe people are actually defending the atrocious state siphoning attacks is in right now.

No resource/sustain skill should cost the same resource that it returns. Ever. That's exactly why they removed the cost from netch during morrowind testing - because an ability meant to help you get resources back is useless if it costs that resource to begin with.

Math, do you know it?
The skill costs what 1100k stamina?
When using the ability you gain 120 stamina on every light attack + a good heal.
After the full duration you gain 4200 stamina.
So let's do the math:
You gain 20*120 stamina+ 4200 stamina= 6200 stamina
6200-1100=5500
5500/10= 550 ---> you gain 550 regen with perfect weaving or 310 if you don't hit any light attack

Now compare it to Elemental Drain which only requires you to have a DoT on target (no need to land light attacks), lasts 4 seconds longer, puts Major Breach on target & restores 300 magicka/second (i.e. "600 regen") not just to you, but to your allies as well while it costs nothing. Also activates important destro staff passives, if you didn't have those active before.

If we were looking at maximum magicka returned per cast...
Siphoning Attacks: [106(not 120 btw)*20]+4270=6390-973(cost with 5/1/1 Light)=5417
5417/20=270/s=540 "regen"

Elemental Drain: 300*24=7200
7200/24=300/s=600 "regen"


I don't think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes is quite good enough all things considered, which is why it doesn't get slotted that often.

Siphoning still gives you a strong heal over time which is often higher in healing total than swallow souls heal, works when no enemies are around to return resources, gives you great passives and you don't have to apply it to the enemy you attack beforehand.

You still need to land the light/heavy attack to get the Siphoning/Leeching Strikes heal. If it was a reliable heal, I'd be running Leeching Strikes rather than Vigor on my stamblade in PvP.

In PvE the heal can be useful though, bosses don't tend to spam dodge roll & avoid all your light/heavy attacks.

I run it on my meele magnb and the heal is very reliable ,outside of Primetime Vivec but nothing is reliable then outside of not being able to break Incap everytime you get hit by it

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

ascan7 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

these types of comments destroy not only builds but the entire nightblade class and stealth rouge type play we have.
its not fair.

A nerf on nightblades is going to happen. Look at what ZOS did to other classes and it's pretty clear they are gonna nerf nightblades.
Now, i'd like to see a smart nerf, not something like what happened to other classes.
Incap is overloaded. It's a fact. I'd like to see incap nerfed, instead of them nerfing other skills that are fine.
Blur is underused. It's weak. I didn't ask for a nerf. I asked for a redesign. What is blur? a tank ability? a PvP ability? it's in the assassination tree, so maybe it could boost damage? Right now, it just feel very subpar and without focus.

Blur is best suited for tanking. Our class representative needs to be knowledable in all areas of the class. Not just DD. NB healers & tanks are so rare, people are forgetting they exist. These two roles require more focus than DD right now.

If its suppose to be a tanking ability and NB tanks dont even exist then its obvious that blur isnt doing a very good job.

It's not the reason they don't exist, but yes. NB tanks don't have competitive class tools available to them in some (more important) areas.

So reworking blur to something unique when it comes to tanking isnt a bad idea. Thats the whole point.

It's already unique to NB tanks and used a lot by them. They are the only class that can now use tava's effectively. Skills/passives in the shadow tree that are not used for tanking should be reworked.

@DDuke & @BohnT - kinda puts how bad it is at returning resources into perspective when it's healing portion is used to justify slotting it...

It's meant to be a resource management skill.

It should not have a reliance on light attacks in it's current state. Ranged attacks are much easier to land than melee, bow attacks are faster than other attacks. If a fight lasts <9 seconds the chances of you getting resources back from it are zero. Most fights last <9 secs. It's more of a downtime skill, as far as resources are concerned.

on fights lasting >20 seconds, it's very comparable to netch, but wardens also get a second resource return skill on top which is nearly twice as effective as either. NB get regen which does not work when blocking, or for 2 secs after you stop blocking and executioner that's bugged, working unless you kill something... (must check that again this week)

Then there is DK on demand 990 stamina regen, and sorcs with dark exchange, limited only by cast time.

Templar is the only class with worse stamina resource gain than NB, reliance on corpses is daft for balance (but cool nonetheless)

if ZoS want to balance resource management, they should just strip it from every skill & passive. Game would crumble. Thats what they did to NB tanks and stamplars. Look how many are still around. They need to allow resource regen whilst blocking again otherwise the classes that have that are disadvantaged against the clases that have a straight return and balancing becomes a 'are we balancing whilst these classes are blocking, or not'

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Siphoning Strikes
While playing Nightblade (Stamina), I've noticed that the Siphoning Strikes ability will occasionally recast itself. I'm unsure as to why.

Merciless Resolve
After a recent update, all stacks of merciless resolve will drop after exiting combat. Meaning if for any reason there is a lul in battle, all stacks must be regained. Even if the ability itself is still running. Is this intended?

Cloak
This skill not only suppresses DoTs, breaks LoS, adds Synergy with another class skill (SA), but it's also quite cheap. As a stamina user who has dumped everything into stamina, I can use it about 4 times, which is more than enough time to escape an enemy or completely suppress most DoTs. This is only the base skill as well, the morphs add additional functionality. Is this potentially over-tuned?

yeah forgot to add you can cloak while roots and cant get hit so they let you heal up or use more magicka to pull you out

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@lucky_Sage

Spending resources (cloak), must be met with a response (break cloak). If they're rooted you still know where they are (and they still don't have root immunity). The bugged crit heals from cloak do exacerbate the issue though.

yes but how does it make since you can cloak while rooted. yeah for a mag dk I have to attack you whil rooted to get some kind of burst timed with a ult(power lash + leap magdks burst) nb cloaks (4050) mag I just spent 4050 mag to root you id have to spend 2700 more to pull you out and then I lose my burst. it should pull you out if you cloak while rooted not let you stay invis

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

ascan7 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

these types of comments destroy not only builds but the entire nightblade class and stealth rouge type play we have.
its not fair.

A nerf on nightblades is going to happen. Look at what ZOS did to other classes and it's pretty clear they are gonna nerf nightblades.
Now, i'd like to see a smart nerf, not something like what happened to other classes.
Incap is overloaded. It's a fact. I'd like to see incap nerfed, instead of them nerfing other skills that are fine.
Blur is underused. It's weak. I didn't ask for a nerf. I asked for a redesign. What is blur? a tank ability? a PvP ability? it's in the assassination tree, so maybe it could boost damage? Right now, it just feel very subpar and without focus.

Blur is best suited for tanking. Our class representative needs to be knowledable in all areas of the class. Not just DD. NB healers & tanks are so rare, people are forgetting they exist. These two roles require more focus than DD right now.

If its suppose to be a tanking ability and NB tanks dont even exist then its obvious that blur isnt doing a very good job.

It's not the reason they don't exist, but yes. NB tanks don't have competitive class tools available to them in some (more important) areas.

So reworking blur to something unique when it comes to tanking isnt a bad idea. Thats the whole point.

It's already unique to NB tanks and used a lot by them. They are the only class that can now use tava's effectively. Skills/passives in the shadow tree that are not used for tanking should be reworked.

When i say unique i mean stand out. Being a reason for someone to choose a NB as a tank. A little more extra ult regen by wasting a 5 piece set isnt something that makes a NB tank attractive. There are other sets to get ult as a tank that can compete or even surpass tavas so its not even that good at what it is designed to do. And the ability (blur) itself just helps with survivability. Tanks are all about utility not survivability. It has to be something actually unique, sort of like chains for DKs. Im not saying to completely remove evasion from both morphs but it does need something more.

yeah, i don't mind if a different skill is tweaked more, just scared they will kill off the only remaining unique skill if they touch it. Not sure of sets better than tava's, IF it proc's, it's returns are better than major heroism. probably a few comparable though. I think NB tank is still currently the most survivable of the lot due to darkness, it's just that extreme survivability is not needed in ESO, and is shown by no other classes having it, and can still tank (better) than the NB because they have tools that are useful. Either way, tanking should in no way rely on % chance. If a tank has a bad run of luck, he's dead, and that's maybe a wipe.

Woeler compared ult sets a few months back. Tavas even in ideal scenarios barely beats ww hide. In actual combat scenarios ww hide will be better and dragonguard can compete with tavas if not beat it as well. So yeah, a tava NB tank is unique since no other class can run it but in terms of what you actually get from such a build its really not unique since other classes can just run other ult sets and get similar if not better results. And i know that tanks are not after survivability. Thats why i said blur doesnt really offer something actually unique for tanks.

I missed that, will go check out his site, not been there recently