Add it to boundless too. The name is pretty misleading as its far from boundless.

Illurian wrote: »

It would really help if people labeled their threads with [PvE] or [PvP].

It's a general class buff rather than a focused one, though I will admit that it would have a greater impact in pvp.

Morgul667 wrote: »

I agree stam sorc would need a little something

I like your idea

Addind snare immunity to bound aegis would not help as it need to be on both bars

Other buff could considered if this one is considered putting much on hurricane

Another way is a passive that grants snare immunity everytime you use a class stamina skill for x seconds or something else

that's why i said a reworked aegis that isn't a toggle anymore

Sixty5 wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

It would really help if people labeled their threads with [PvE] or [PvP].

It's a general class buff rather than a focused one, though I will admit that it would have a greater impact in pvp.

You have only mentioned PvP aspects. Snare immunity does not affect PvE much, if at all. Bleed builds are also purely PvP oriented.

I mean, sure, you can say that it's an overall class buff, but this is clearly a PvP discussion, so it would help if you labeled it as such so that you get input from your targeted audience.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

It would really help if people labeled their threads with [PvE] or [PvP].

It's a general class buff rather than a focused one, though I will admit that it would have a greater impact in pvp.

You have only mentioned PvP aspects. Snare immunity does not affect PvE much, if at all. Bleed builds are also purely PvP oriented.

I mean, sure, you can say that it's an overall class buff, but this is clearly a PvP discussion, so it would help if you labeled it as such so that you get input from your targeted audience.

I see where you are going with this. Like if there was a entire subcategory dedicated to PvP and how combat and skills work in the PvP area... Oh wait, there is, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/PvP-combat-skills.

I agree with you on the fact this is a PvP buff and does nothing for pve. So the op ought to have posted this in the PvP section.

By the same logic do you request all PVE post to have a related PVE threader [PVE]?

Ladislao wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Stam Sorc is in a pretty awkward place where it is doing alright because of how well it works with Bleed Builds, but the class as a whole tends to be in a not so great position.

Stam Sorc is meant to be the speedy boi class, but with all the snares that are being thrown round these days, you don't really feel it anymore. Thinking in regards to potential buffs, one thing that has stuck in my mind as what seems like a pretty decent option, is adding snare immunity to Hurricane.

Basically this means that you don't need Shuffle or Forward momentum, either freeing up a bar slot, or giving you acess to a burst heal. You'd still be subject to other forms of CC, but being able to 100% ignore snares would feel pretty damn good.

Anyways, let me know what you think, good idea, or am I just sleep deprived.

Is it a troll post inspired by the topics about DK and Templars?

I would like to remind you that snares are common problem for all classes. And each class has access to Shuffle, Forward momentum, Purge, vampirism, item sets, etc. So let's not discuss this as a problem of any particular class.

As for the buffs. Since IC patch, there was not a single update in which stamsorcs were weak. In different patches, they were stronger and weaker, but in general they were always in a very good position. The current patch is no exception. The main reason for this is the incredible flexibility of the class. Perhaps this class just does not suit you.

I would, to the contrary, suggest discussing a potential stamsorc nerf. But since it is my main character, it's hard for me to offer anything specific on this. Perhaps you should start with passive abilities, for example, Daedric Protection, Expert Mage or Implosion. Up to you.

Lol for the troll

Is your next move to propose a nb buff ? :-D

Morgul667 wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Stam Sorc is in a pretty awkward place where it is doing alright because of how well it works with Bleed Builds, but the class as a whole tends to be in a not so great position.

Stam Sorc is meant to be the speedy boi class, but with all the snares that are being thrown round these days, you don't really feel it anymore. Thinking in regards to potential buffs, one thing that has stuck in my mind as what seems like a pretty decent option, is adding snare immunity to Hurricane.

Basically this means that you don't need Shuffle or Forward momentum, either freeing up a bar slot, or giving you acess to a burst heal. You'd still be subject to other forms of CC, but being able to 100% ignore snares would feel pretty damn good.

Anyways, let me know what you think, good idea, or am I just sleep deprived.

Is it a troll post inspired by the topics about DK and Templars?

I would like to remind you that snares are common problem for all classes. And each class has access to Shuffle, Forward momentum, Purge, vampirism, item sets, etc. So let's not discuss this as a problem of any particular class.

As for the buffs. Since IC patch, there was not a single update in which stamsorcs were weak. In different patches, they were stronger and weaker, but in general they were always in a very good position. The current patch is no exception. The main reason for this is the incredible flexibility of the class. Perhaps this class just does not suit you.

I would, to the contrary, suggest discussing a potential stamsorc nerf. But since it is my main character, it's hard for me to offer anything specific on this. Perhaps you should start with passive abilities, for example, Daedric Protection, Expert Mage or Implosion. Up to you.

Lol for the troll

Is your next move to propose a nb buff ? :-D

I'm more inclined to think that nightblades should also be nerfed. But since I play relatively little on them, I can not firmly assert this.

But I have been playing stamsorc for more than two years. So I am competent enough in this.

Ladislao wrote: »

Is it a troll post inspired by the topics about DK and Templars?

I would like to remind you that snares are common problem for all classes. And each class has access to Shuffle, Forward momentum, Purge, vampirism, item sets, etc. So let's not discuss this as a problem of any particular class.

As for the buffs. Since IC patch, there was not a single update in which stamsorcs were weak. In different patches, they were stronger and weaker, but in general they were always in a very good position. The current patch is no exception. The main reason for this is the incredible flexibility of the class. Perhaps this class just does not suit you.

I would, to the contrary, suggest discussing a potential stamsorc nerf. But since it is my main character, it's hard for me to offer anything specific on this. Perhaps you should start with passive abilities, for example, Daedric Protection, Expert Mage or Implosion. Up to you.

Why? The Stam Sorc doesn't even truly benefit from most of the passives as is. Even those three in particular shouldn't be entirely necessary to change. Daedric Protection is the primary means of a stamsorc possessing any means of sustain outside of Dark Deal, which is largely useless in PVE. And the main way to benefit from this is taking the shoehorned Bound Armaments that's barely even worth its double-slotted state. It's Health Recovery bonus is prevalent in PVP for some builds, but that same stat is entirely useless in PVE. I almost see it balancing itself out. Expert Mage also isn't that much of a benefit for a stamsorc versus a magsorc. I believe PVP might use more skills than PVE, but I don't imagine that's a lot. I'd say in most cases, the average they'd benefit from would be 6% Weapon/Spell Damage, which is equal to the Templar's weapon damage increase, except they get it without conditions. I kind of understand the issue with Implosion at least in PVP, but ultimately, if one's health gets low enough to enter that threshold, then that's that. Not that I'm saying the player fighting against the stamsorc should 'git gud' and not get so low in the first place, but their death is highly likely from that point regardless. It's just a matter of luck not being in their favor, which I acknowledge is kind of the issue when skill should be emphasized, but RNG does play a part in all of combat.

Ladislao wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Stam Sorc is in a pretty awkward place where it is doing alright because of how well it works with Bleed Builds, but the class as a whole tends to be in a not so great position.

Stam Sorc is meant to be the speedy boi class, but with all the snares that are being thrown round these days, you don't really feel it anymore. Thinking in regards to potential buffs, one thing that has stuck in my mind as what seems like a pretty decent option, is adding snare immunity to Hurricane.

Basically this means that you don't need Shuffle or Forward momentum, either freeing up a bar slot, or giving you acess to a burst heal. You'd still be subject to other forms of CC, but being able to 100% ignore snares would feel pretty damn good.

Anyways, let me know what you think, good idea, or am I just sleep deprived.

Is it a troll post inspired by the topics about DK and Templars?

I would like to remind you that snares are common problem for all classes. And each class has access to Shuffle, Forward momentum, Purge, vampirism, item sets, etc. So let's not discuss this as a problem of any particular class.

As for the buffs. Since IC patch, there was not a single update in which stamsorcs were weak. In different patches, they were stronger and weaker, but in general they were always in a very good position. The current patch is no exception. The main reason for this is the incredible flexibility of the class. Perhaps this class just does not suit you.

I would, to the contrary, suggest discussing a potential stamsorc nerf. But since it is my main character, it's hard for me to offer anything specific on this. Perhaps you should start with passive abilities, for example, Daedric Protection, Expert Mage or Implosion. Up to you.

+1 for effort

But really, there were patches I didn't even see more than a handful stam sorcs in cyro. And that includes my own.

For a class that is designed around mobility not having inherent snare removal is a bit questionable. But whatever, universal gap closers counter streak anyway, so that's that with the mobility.

But can you please tell me more about the flexibilty you mentioned? Do you mistake that they barely use any class skills and therefore doesn't really profit from being that class with being flexible?

It was already mentioned, but how many class abilites do you actually use on your stam sorc? Hurricane, Streak, Dark Deal. Maybe Surge and Overload. All on your offensive bar? My guess is that you probably put no more than 2 of them on your front bar, that means expert mage grants you amazing 4% weapon dmg.
Daedric Protection forces you to either double slot bound armor, which is another skill of questionable worth for it's space consumption, or atronach, which is rather situational in PvP.
Implosion sure isn't fun for the one recieving it, and it's not reliable for the sorc. But if you're at 15% health (read: 3,75k health with 25k max h.) every non-dot would kill you anyway.

But let's go ahead and see what stam sorcs have to offer:

Unholy Knowledge: great passive
Blood Magic: with what should I proc that? Rune? And 8% max health is 4% in pvp, means 1k heal with 25k max h.. Useless.
Persistance: only buffs rune and negate, so not a bummer but not great either
Exploitation: nice for my group but useless to me.

Rebate: useless
Power Stone: second great passive
Daedric Protection: as mentioned above, either double slot BA or situational atronach (and loose 3rd skill bar)
Expert Summoner: see Rebate, only way to use this is atro

Capacitator: okayish passive, what's 10% of the base mag regen?
Energyzed: third great passive
Implosion: see above, no fun for anyone involved, should change to something reliable and non-rng like
Expert Mage: see above, grants mostly 4% weapon dmg, so it's nice

So we have 3 great passives, 2-3 okay ones and Implosion, the rest is borderline useless. Better nerf the crap out of that.

Celestro wrote: »

Why? The Stam Sorc doesn't even truly benefit from most of the passives as is. Even those three in particular shouldn't be entirely necessary to change. Daedric Protection is the primary means of a stamsorc possessing any means of sustain outside of Dark Deal, which is largely useless in PVE. And the main way to benefit from this is taking the shoehorned Bound Armaments that's barely even worth its double-slotted state. It's Health Recovery bonus is prevalent in PVP for some builds, but that same stat is entirely useless in PVE. I almost see it balancing itself out. Expert Mage also isn't that much of a benefit for a stamsorc versus a magsorc. I believe PVP might use more skills than PVE, but I don't imagine that's a lot. I'd say in most cases, the average they'd benefit from would be 6% Weapon/Spell Damage, which is equal to the Templar's weapon damage increase, except they get it without conditions. I kind of understand the issue with Implosion at least in PVP, but ultimately, if one's health gets low enough to enter that threshold, then that's that. Not that I'm saying the player fighting against the stamsorc should 'git gud' and not get so low in the first place, but their death is highly likely from that point regardless. It's just a matter of luck not being in their favor, which I acknowledge is kind of the issue when skill should be emphasized, but RNG does play a part in all of combat.

First of all, I would like to clarify that I'm talking more about PVP. Simply because in PVE all classes can give decent DPS. In terms of numbers and parses, developers know better how and what needs to be changed.

Continuing the conversation about PVP, I understand and agree with you. All of these skills and passives are not imbalance. But in summary they make stamsorcs too strong and flexible in comparison with other classes.

I did not give concrete proposals on nerfs, but only directions for thinking.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But really, there were patches I didn't even see more than a handful stam sorcs in cyro. And that includes my own.

You know, two years ago people generally considered stamsorcs a joke. But this did not stop them from existing and quite successfully. Population is a very relative indicator of the power of the class.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

For a class that is designed around mobility not having inherent snare removal is a bit questionable. But whatever, universal gap closers counter streak anyway, so that's that with the mobility.

Perhaps, in your understanding of mobility, they are not mobile. But in comparison with other classes they are among the most mobile. Everything is relative.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But can you please tell me more about the flexibilty you mentioned? Do you mistake that they barely use any class skills and therefore doesn't really profit from being that class with being flexible?

I mean I can take any type of weapon or playstyle and get full benefit from my class abilities. I played burst, tanky, proc, dot, ww, aoe in solo, duo, smallscales, and it all perfectly synergized with my abilities. Of the variety of abilities I have not used, perhaps, only those that are highly dependent on magic and do not have utility.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

It was already mentioned, but how many class abilites do you actually use on your stam sorc? Hurricane, Streak, Dark Deal. Maybe Surge and Overload. All on your offensive bar? My guess is that you probably put no more than 2 of them on your front bar, that means expert mage grants you amazing 4% weapon dmg.
Daedric Protection forces you to either double slot bound armor, which is another skill of questionable worth for it's space consumption, or atronach, which is rather situational in PvP.
Implosion sure isn't fun for the one recieving it, and it's not reliable for the sorc. But if you're at 15% health (read: 3,75k health with 25k max h.) every non-dot would kill you anyway.

As I said above to another person, I did not give concrete proposals on nerfs. I apologize for not expressing this correctly.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Unholy Knowledge: great passive
Blood Magic: with what should I proc that? Rune? And 8% max health is 4% in pvp, means 1k heal with 25k max h.. Useless.
Persistance: only buffs rune and negate, so not a bummer but not great either
Exploitation: nice for my group but useless to me.

Rebate: useless
Power Stone: second great passive
Daedric Protection: as mentioned above, either double slot BA or situational atronach (and loose 3rd skill bar)
Expert Summoner: see Rebate, only way to use this is atro

Capacitator: okayish passive, what's 10% of the base mag regen?
Energyzed: third great passive
Implosion: see above, no fun for anyone involved, should change to something reliable and non-rng like
Expert Mage: see above, grants mostly 4% weapon dmg, so it's nice

So we have 3 great passives, 2-3 okay ones and Implosion, the rest is borderline useless. Better nerf the crap out of that.

And you think that this is not enough? Given the fact that almost all of them give you useful bonuses regardless of the playstyle.

You can compare, for example, with Templars, in which some of the passive abilities work only with the skills of their skilllines. And most of the active skills do not have useful properties for the stamplars.
Or with dragonknights, which each patch discuss about how useless their skills are.
Even Nightblades have a very mediocre set of passive skills. Their strength is active skills, to which they are strongly attached.


Once again.
I think that stamsorcs need a little nerf. Just a little. Just because they are too distinguished by their flexibility against the background of other classes, without losing anything. In my opinion, as a person who plays stamsorc most of the time, it's too unfair for other classes. Your right to disagree with me.
But I hope that you will agree with me that they do not need a buff.

Ladislao wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But can you please tell me more about the flexibilty you mentioned? Do you mistake that they barely use any class skills and therefore doesn't really profit from being that class with being flexible?

I mean I can take any type of weapon or playstyle and get full benefit from my class abilities. I played burst, tanky, proc, dot, ww, aoe in solo, duo, smallscales, and it all perfectly synergized with my abilities. Of the variety of abilities I have not used, perhaps, only those that are highly dependent on magic and do not have utility.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Unholy Knowledge: great passive
Blood Magic: with what should I proc that? Rune? And 8% max health is 4% in pvp, means 1k heal with 25k max h.. Useless.
Persistance: only buffs rune and negate, so not a bummer but not great either
Exploitation: nice for my group but useless to me.

Rebate: useless
Power Stone: second great passive
Daedric Protection: as mentioned above, either double slot BA or situational atronach (and loose 3rd skill bar)
Expert Summoner: see Rebate, only way to use this is atro

Capacitator: okayish passive, what's 10% of the base mag regen?
Energyzed: third great passive
Implosion: see above, no fun for anyone involved, should change to something reliable and non-rng like
Expert Mage: see above, grants mostly 4% weapon dmg, so it's nice

So we have 3 great passives, 2-3 okay ones and Implosion, the rest is borderline useless. Better nerf the crap out of that.

And you think that this is not enough? Given the fact that almost all of them give you useful bonuses regardless of the playstyle.

You can compare, for example, with Templars, in which some of the passive abilities work only with the skills of their skilllines. And most of the active skills do not have useful properties for the stamplars.
Or with dragonknights, which each patch discuss about how useless their skills are.
Even Nightblades have a very mediocre set of passive skills. Their strength is active skills, to which they are strongly attached.


Once again.
I think that stamsorcs need a little nerf. Just a little. Just because they are too distinguished by their flexibility against the background of other classes, without losing anything. In my opinion, as a person who plays stamsorc most of the time, it's too unfair for other classes. Your right to disagree with me.
But I hope that you will agree with me that they do not need a buff.

Indeed, you get full benefit from your passives when playing any weapon. But that's because sS passives are very generic and almost flavourless. Around half the passives are okay or good, yes, but they feel really bland. Combine that with only one real damage dealing class ability and you get a class that might feels nice for their mobility but in terms of offense feels too bland. Almost our entire skill bars consist of nothing but non-class abilites. Sure, stam classes in general utilize less class skills but stam sorcs feels especially flavourless.

And on the passives, yes, the ones that they can use are good to have. But I'd like to see class passives benefit the entire class, not just one resource or even then only a subpart. And yes, DKs have it worse, but we shouldn't put the bar at the lowest level and measure it with that. I'm all for revamping DK passives. However, I can't agree on your statement that NBs have only mediocre passives. They are almost all at least good, if not great. They grand big resource boni for just slotting some abilites from a specific tree (magick flood, dark vigor or even refreshing shadows which requires nothing) instead of double slotting a toggle and I can't think of one NB passive that is useless for any NB. That is where we should put the bar, on a well thought through and well designed class, not on a class that is in a weak state.

For your last paragraph. I don't think they need a nerf. They are mid tier at the moment, that doesn't justify a nerf. For what reason? They aren't on top of anything. Neither in PvE nor in PvP. The main strenght of bleed build stam sorcs is the bleed, not the stam sorc. What's left of the class after many nerfs (e.g. to streak, surge, dark deal, hurricane) just synergyzes well with DoTs in general. A non-bleed dot build on a sS is arguably much weaker (but not necessary weak), that should make us think where the power really comes from. Stamplars and Stamblades make good bleed builds as well.

I'm not necessary arguing for a buff, even if it would be nice to have one. What I want is a redesign of the whole class (both resources) to add a little flavour to stam sorcs and to get rid of the shieldstacking meta.

Honestly, if it weren't for streak, most of the times I wouldn't even notice that I don't play a classless template.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Not hurricane, but Ball of Lightning.

This gives you a clear escape vs Offense choice and makes Ball a competitive option while not making the class snare immune.

I like this a lot more, but it also sounds too dangerous to just throw snare immunity left and right.

Snares are exactly meant to be used on a class like sorc, and if they have too easy access to snare immunity then they will be like how nbs currently are. (a.k.a. takes no risk to play)

Problem is that e.g. mag sorcs don't have any viable option to remove snares. Besides mist form but I've never seen any mS use that. Eff Purge is too unreliable (only 2 effects). Since streak is easily countered by anyone with a gap closer they are forced into shield stacking. And nobody likes that, not the opponent and the caster neither. Besides that, mS are a bit forced into specific abilites/ weapons and it's hard to add another skill into that.

However, if a class is designed around mobility and speed, why not let them have that mobility? It's not like snares are useless against anyone else. On top of that Bolt of Lightning/ Streak have a fatigue. If you make the immunity short enough they won't keep the immunity up permanently, but it would allow them to escape with their escape skill.

However, I'd be satisfied if streak/BoL gave a short gap closer immunity.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Not hurricane, but Ball of Lightning.

This gives you a clear escape vs Offense choice and makes Ball a competitive option while not making the class snare immune.

I like this a lot more, but it also sounds too dangerous to just throw snare immunity left and right.

Snares are exactly meant to be used on a class like sorc, and if they have too easy access to snare immunity then they will be like how nbs currently are. (a.k.a. takes no risk to play)

Problem is that e.g. mag sorcs don't have any viable option to remove snares. Besides mist form but I've never seen any mS use that. Eff Purge is too unreliable (only 2 effects). Since streak is easily countered by anyone with a gap closer they are forced into shield stacking. And nobody likes that, not the opponent and the caster neither. Besides that, mS are a bit forced into specific abilites/ weapons and it's hard to add another skill into that.

However, if a class is designed around mobility and speed, why not let them have that mobility? It's not like snares are useless against anyone else. On top of that Bolt of Lightning/ Streak have a fatigue. If you make the immunity short enough they won't keep the immunity up permanently, but it would allow them to escape with their escape skill.

However, I'd be satisfied if streak/BoL gave a short gap closer immunity.

considering streak has a stacking cost, giving it a short snare immunity might not be so bad after all. Ideas like this is what PTS should be used for.

DDuke wrote: »

I'd really like to see a stam morph of mines some day, would help stam sorcs kite & possibly set up some interesting plays.

not a perfect replacement but stamsorcs do use caltrops/rearming trap in the overload bar to buy time while kiting.
Its not perfection but stamsorc is not out of options like some people claim it is.

I would say buffing rearming trap to allow having 2-3 traps at different locations, could probably a better move.

Edit: actually considering rearming trap is the PvE morph, It would be a better idea to use lightweight trap for such a change.