Templars & "Magic Damage" & Fixing The Issue

Nifty2g · March 2018

Magicka Templar DD toolkit is incredibly out dated in the way they deal damage, "Magic Damage". You have your Elemental Damage types; Fire, Frost and Lightning and you have Race passives that increase this damage by 4-6% and so on (Dark Elf and High Elf). Just to clarify on this I have managed to get Eric Wrobel to hear me out on this awhile ago when Jessica asked him a question on the Live show. -- This isn't a call out for Eric Wrobel, but when the question was asked he wasn't even sure what Magic Damage was and when asked if we would see passive increase to it before it was in Champion System his reply was to just increase your Magicka. This question was asked sometime during 2015.

Where as when you see the Templars Skill Abilities, "Radiant Destruction", "Burning Light", "Nova" these abilities for example deal "Magic Damage" instead of an Elemental type damage (there are a few more in the Templar abilities this is just an example), because of this in comparison to the other classes is a huge flaw in their damage and why they are barely picked in Raid scenarios because they just can't keep up, the make barely any use of the Champion System because of it, and they make barely any use of any other means to increase their damage passively.

I suggest to have their damage skills looked over and to possibly change what damage they do to most Fire damage seeing as for example "Radiant Destruction" in the tool tip calls the skill "a ray of holy fire". If not willing to change their damage types, maybe the class could have a passive in their class tree's that increases their Magic Damage by 10% at Rank 2 much like how Wardens have it, although Wardens should not have that passive at all, it was given to the wrong class.

Previous threads I have ranted about this before if you feel like reading through. Back then it wasn't needed but right now in the current state of the game, it is apparent this is needed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/275272/lets-talk-about-why-there-is-no-magic-damage-increase-passive/p1

Nifty2g · March 2018

I forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel

I hope you guys really do consider this for the upcoming update, it would help Templars in every way, whether the fire damage change or a magic damage passive somewhere.

ofSunhold · March 2018

Agree that a boost would be nice, I always feel like I'm working a lot harder for a lot less damage when I'm playing on my templar. I've wished for a while we had an added "prismatic" type damage to daedra and undead on all our skills, although that's probably not very useful to endgame DD templars, just cool.

Side note: my magden has sweet class passives. The magplar has so much envy.

Minno · March 2018

I would like to see the dmg become Mag based given that it's source is light.
But i also understand the issue with mag based dmg not having the percentage based passives that the other elements have.
I would like the templar skills to be magicka based dmg but there be passives that boost mag dmg.

Checkmath · March 2018

Magic damage gets amplified with elemental expert too if im not mistaken. But there are no racial passives like the ones from dunmer and altmer...

Elsterchen · March 2018

@Nifty2g , very important point, ty for sharing.

Imo, the neglect of any elemental or physical damage types (i.e.poison, disease) in the templars toolset create a situation where templars have only subpar access to many sets available. Hence, limiting the choice of gear (build diversity) to an unhealthy degree.

... and this is true for magplars as well as stamplars.

LiquidPony · March 2018

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

LiquidPony · March 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

@Nifty2g , very important point, ty for sharing.

Imo, the neglect of any elemental or physical damage types (i.e.poison, disease) in the templars toolset create a situation where templars have only subpar access to many sets available. Hence, limiting the choice of gear (build diversity) to an unhealthy degree.

... and this is true for magplars as well as stamplars.

Disease damage is basically useless in a PvE toolkit. Swamp Raider's about the only thing I can think of that buffs it, and it's irrelevant (although not awful) because disease damage just isn't a large enough component of a stamblade's DPS to justify not buffing Endless Hail/Caltrops and all the other physical damage sources.

Also, stamsorcs do almost exclusively physical damage and it isn't an issue. Strength of the Automaton is extremely strong on both stamsorcs and stamplars.

Maybe stamplars have some issues (although they're pretty strong and pretty desirable right now), but much like the initial point about magplars, I disagree that the type of damage they do is the reason.

Minno · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

Nifty2g · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

This is very true, I didn't take this into consideration, Nightblades and sorcs have such great ways to increase their damage passively, Dragonknights also have this. Templars do have Piercing Spear passive but with how weak Magplars are there is no need to have them in melee over a Stamina character so they lose out on that passive and hard to find a way to make that ability on both bars. Because of this Burning Light is also lower on Templars because the proc chance on Blazing Spear is lower and also it is AoE damage and could be procing on targets you don't want.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

@Nifty2g I do agree that magplars have needed buffing for a long time. But I'm pretty sure magblades do magic with most of its class abilities as well and it's sitting quite well atm. I think it's importantthey buff but I don't necessarily think this is the templars issue. Although buffing them this way would be low hanging fruit and I'm sure that would be appealing to the developers.

Edit I guess other ppl have touched on this

Minno · March 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

This is very true, I didn't take this into consideration, Nightblades and sorcs have such great ways to increase their damage passively, Dragonknights also have this. Templars do have Piercing Spear passive but with how weak Magplars are there is no need to have them in melee over a Stamina character so they lose out on that passive and hard to find a way to make that ability on both bars. Because of this Burning Light is also lower on Templars because the proc chance on Blazing Spear is lower and also it is AoE damage and could be procing on targets you don't want.

and Gilliam brings up the points in his videos that burning light is single target cooldown. It should be AOE proc but each target has their own cooldown on the proc so you can apply it to both nearest target and those that get stuck in the AOE. In pvp, Cinbri brings up that burning light is blockable but sorc's execute passive is unblockable (lol).

a few templars I know also asked for buffs while they are in their circle. I heard from one person that suggested major beserk be granted but only within the radius of the channeled focus rune (but idk how Op that could be).

Also much of the templar's abilities have better versions of themselves elsewhere:
- extended ritual's HoT is a worse healing springs/mutagen (though it's synergy is amazing).
- unstable core's burst dmg is worse than sorc's curse.
- solar barage = prox det but with a cast time.
- hasty prayer is easily replaced with healing springs
- radiant aura is instantly nulified by ele drain
- blazing spears, despite procing burning light, is worse than wall of elements. If they fix burning light to be separate target cooldowns than single target cooldown, blazing spears would be amazing.
- blazing shield is too niche and the dmg is awkwardly scaling. harness mag is better, and gives some sustain.
- javelin is too expensive and awkward to use with sweeps; destructive reach outperforms it because it has a dot that last's through the cc immunity.
- toppling charge still has an old ass secondary effect (off balance from interupts) and is slower than before morrowind. Crit rush and SnB charge outperform this along with mist form; even sprint is a better gapcloser than toppling.
- reflective light can be replaced by destructive reach. 6 second buff time is way too short when potions+inner light give you better crit timers and destructive reach adds cc flavors from the staff you pick (including a ranged root that ignores cc immunity!).
- empowering sweeps is nullified by dawnbreaker (for pvp). the cc in melee range is hard to avoid and thus better for templar. Even meteror is better for PVE content due to the AOE effect and strong single target dmg that also boosts your regen/max mag.

Etc, Etc. Templars need a fix on abilities, better synergy between them all, passive defense, spell crit/armor buffs that lasts 20+seconds and an extra dmg scaling buff.

Edit: added some text and changed some wording.

Elsterchen · March 2018

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. /edit: running in groups and getting buffed they can be aweseome, I agree on that... but on the other hand, they are not designed for group support (stamplars (usually) don't heal! and rarely apply the magic skill shards) and, again my personal perception, rely heavily on someone charging them with stam.

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

edit edit: To sum this up, I really think some sort of synergy unique to templars would be a really nice thing for the class as a whole, I am fine if its linked (and thereby limited) to some elemental/physical form of damage. Any perspective for the class is welcome, if you've read joy's latest readup on templars you may get insight to why we templars moan and groan so much. Currently it works (more or less), but it doesn't play well.

Minno · March 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:
- access to strong bleeds that also heal you
- 20% extra damage with dual weld attacks to 25% low health enemies (passive execute)
- 15% dmg bonus with dual weld against stuned/immobilzed/silenced enemies
- and the swords boost your dmg done.

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. They could use some abilities to benefit them (like when our mending passive used to boost all heals not just resto line heals, or they could get hasty prayer as a stamina morph since they can kite and it has counterplay which any healing spell attached to high dmg stamina should have).

Though for pvp, magplar can use frost staff backbar with wall of elements to help boost his "house" passively and still have access to a blocking weapon.

Nifty2g · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:
- access to strong bleeds that also heal you
- 20% extra damage with dual weld attacks to 25% low health enemies (passive execute)
- 15% dmg bonus with dual weld against stuned/immobilzed/silenced enemies
- and the swords boost your dmg done.

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. They could use some abilities to benefit them (like when our mending passive used to boost all heals not just resto line heals, or they could get hasty prayer as a stamina morph since they can kite and it has counterplay which any healing spell attached to high dmg stamina should have).

Though for pvp, magplar can use frost staff backbar with wall of elements to help boost his "house" passively and still have access to a blocking weapon.

Ontop of those damage multipliers stamplars get to make easy use of Piercing Spear Critical Hit damage for using Biting Jabs.

Nifty2g · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

Magblades have amazing passive damage multipliers compared to Magplar that is why they are top, then you have Sorc and Dragonknight, if dragonknights could sustain they too would have great passive damage and used to be the strongest.

Magplars weak damage output is the result of very outdated passive damage, and honestly quickest fix would be to make most of their damage fire damage to also make use of Engulfing Flames.

Minno · March 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:
- access to strong bleeds that also heal you
- 20% extra damage with dual weld attacks to 25% low health enemies (passive execute)
- 15% dmg bonus with dual weld against stuned/immobilzed/silenced enemies
- and the swords boost your dmg done.

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. They could use some abilities to benefit them (like when our mending passive used to boost all heals not just resto line heals, or they could get hasty prayer as a stamina morph since they can kite and it has counterplay which any healing spell attached to high dmg stamina should have).

Though for pvp, magplar can use frost staff backbar with wall of elements to help boost his "house" passively and still have access to a blocking weapon.

Ontop of those damage multipliers stamplars get to make easy use of Piercing Spear Critical Hit damage for using Biting Jabs.

Which is more consistent than vamps bane is for magplar since the melee spamable is more widely used because of our burning light passive.

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

Magblades have amazing passive damage multipliers compared to Magplar that is why they are top, then you have Sorc and Dragonknight, if dragonknights could sustain they too would have great passive damage and used to be the strongest.

Magplars weak damage output is the result of very outdated passive damage, and honestly quickest fix would be to make most of their damage fire damage to also make use of Engulfing Flames.

They could add a similar dmg boost somewhere in the dawns wraith tree. If they could make solar barrage instant cast, then apply a 10% extra dmg modifer to any enemy hit, would that solve this issue than turning all dmg sources to fire and have a DK slotted?

Just thinking of a change that would benefit both pve/pvp

Nifty2g · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:
- access to strong bleeds that also heal you
- 20% extra damage with dual weld attacks to 25% low health enemies (passive execute)
- 15% dmg bonus with dual weld against stuned/immobilzed/silenced enemies
- and the swords boost your dmg done.

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. They could use some abilities to benefit them (like when our mending passive used to boost all heals not just resto line heals, or they could get hasty prayer as a stamina morph since they can kite and it has counterplay which any healing spell attached to high dmg stamina should have).

Though for pvp, magplar can use frost staff backbar with wall of elements to help boost his "house" passively and still have access to a blocking weapon.

Ontop of those damage multipliers stamplars get to make easy use of Piercing Spear Critical Hit damage for using Biting Jabs.

Which is more consistent than vamps bane is for magplar since the melee spamable is more widely used because of our burning light passive.

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

Magblades have amazing passive damage multipliers compared to Magplar that is why they are top, then you have Sorc and Dragonknight, if dragonknights could sustain they too would have great passive damage and used to be the strongest.

Magplars weak damage output is the result of very outdated passive damage, and honestly quickest fix would be to make most of their damage fire damage to also make use of Engulfing Flames.

They could add a similar dmg boost somewhere in the dawns wraith tree. If they could make solar barrage instant cast, then apply a 10% extra dmg modifer to any enemy hit, would that solve this issue than turning all dmg sources to fire and have a DK slotted?

Just thinking of a change that would benefit both pve/pvp

They could do something unique with Dark Flare similar to Assassins Will and Crystal Fragments and also Flame Lash, every class has a proc of sorts.

They could do something with Javelin where it explodes after awhile instead of being how it is just so we have more options to get the piercing spear passive.

There is quite a lot they could do with Templars.

Elsterchen · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:<- Yes, Minno exactly my point. Their strength is utilized from a skill tree open to everyone. When i say "generic" thats what I mean. A NB can slot the same skills and profit even more from them, bc of class passives and active abilities with actual BUFFS that a templar just doesn't have access to !

...

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. I disagree, we are only stubborn enough to not just give up. And determined enough to just make it work, somehow.

They could use desperately need some abilities to benefit them (...) to have any "unique" standing.

...

edit: I partly agree.

@Nifty2g

Ontop of those damage multipliers stamplars get to make easy use of Piercing Spear Critical Hit damage for using Biting Jabs.

every class can use dual wield and get the damage multipliers from dual wield!

...a 1.1 s channel, with a frontal conal aoe, that if you hit a moving target is missing 50% of the time, is easy use (?) ... really, go PVP with that one, please! /edit: We use it bc we have nothing else to spam!

as for burning light passive (see above!)

edit edit: The general problem isn't unique to magplars, stamplars have the same basic issues: to little syngergy with anything. Our abilities and passives just do not harmonize leaving us with little options of which the generic one is in many cases even the best we can get.

On a different topic: haven't heard much about our healbots ... "tanks" ... are there any templar tanks left? Just asking.

LiquidPony · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

Minno · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

I only mention it because there are some that do care about one, the other or both.

jesus beam used to deal a redic amount of base dmg to justify casting it earlier. That dmg was nerfed and thus you don't see beams that much.

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:
- access to strong bleeds that also heal you
- 20% extra damage with dual weld attacks to 25% low health enemies (passive execute)
- 15% dmg bonus with dual weld against stuned/immobilzed/silenced enemies
- and the swords boost your dmg done.

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. They could use some abilities to benefit them (like when our mending passive used to boost all heals not just resto line heals, or they could get hasty prayer as a stamina morph since they can kite and it has counterplay which any healing spell attached to high dmg stamina should have).

Though for pvp, magplar can use frost staff backbar with wall of elements to help boost his "house" passively and still have access to a blocking weapon.

Ontop of those damage multipliers stamplars get to make easy use of Piercing Spear Critical Hit damage for using Biting Jabs.

Which is more consistent than vamps bane is for magplar since the melee spamable is more widely used because of our burning light passive.

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

Magblades have amazing passive damage multipliers compared to Magplar that is why they are top, then you have Sorc and Dragonknight, if dragonknights could sustain they too would have great passive damage and used to be the strongest.

Magplars weak damage output is the result of very outdated passive damage, and honestly quickest fix would be to make most of their damage fire damage to also make use of Engulfing Flames.

They could add a similar dmg boost somewhere in the dawns wraith tree. If they could make solar barrage instant cast, then apply a 10% extra dmg modifer to any enemy hit, would that solve this issue than turning all dmg sources to fire and have a DK slotted?

Just thinking of a change that would benefit both pve/pvp

They could do something unique with Dark Flare similar to Assassins Will and Crystal Fragments and also Flame Lash, every class has a proc of sorts.

They could do something with Javelin where it explodes after awhile instead of being how it is just so we have more options to get the piercing spear passive.

There is quite a lot they could do with Templars.

I like that jav! Though they made us having burning light as our proc $:\$

Elsterchen wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. .

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

Stamplars use dual weld:<- Yes, Minno exactly my point. Their strength is utilized from a skill tree open to everyone. When i say "generic" thats what I mean. A NB can slot the same skills and profit even more from them, bc of class passives and active abilities with actual BUFFS that a templar just doesn't have access to !

...

That's why stamplars are somewhat strong currently in various areas of the game. I disagree, we are only stubborn enough to not just give up. And determined enough to just make it work, somehow.

They could use desperately need some abilities to benefit them (...) to have any "unique" standing.

...

edit: I partly agree.

yea but compared to my magplar, those stamplars ruin my day lol. They could get morphs, im just hesitant when they gave cresant sweep to them but because dawnbreaker is so much better designed, almost none use creasant sweep (maybe a few actually admit using it, but it's hard to beat getting passive weapon damage.)

Possible Stamplar morphs:
- hasty prayer (mobile stamplar healers

)
- total dark should grant a buff stamplars can use with the heal scaling off max stat like burning light does.

Those two would allow stamplars to use all of the resto line passives and get a defensive spell from dawns wraith to help with dodge roll defense.

Nifty2g · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

Not that long ago? It's been over a year since Magplars had a spot in Raid, and it wasn't because of their non amazing single target with beam, it was because they had great AoE capabilities that made fights easy back then when it wasn't all about single target damage because they could run Dual Wield and get 5pc bonuses, running Twice Born Star with Moondancer, however this is not viable anymore at all staves got buffed too much, magplars can barely sustain in raids their circle has been nerfed too many times that it's pretty meh for sustained return as you have to move around far too much for mechanics, this is another failed attempt at outdated playstyles that ZOS never fixed with their "templar house". And fyi you only had like 2 Magplars in raid because Dragonknights were still better

Nightblades are on top because of their passives, their passives just allow great damage

Soul Harvest - While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain Ultimate.
Pressure Points - Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Refreshing Shadows - Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.
Dark Vigor - Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Catalyst - After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown

Compare it to specifically a Magicka Templar passives

Piercing Spear - Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted
Burning Light - When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal an additional [x] Physical Damage or [y] Magic Damage, whicever is higher. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.
Restoring Spirit - Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.
Illuminate (group buff) - Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
Prism - Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 3 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

So, you don't have any recovery passives you just have reduced cost by 4%, you don't get a max magicka bonus, you don't get increased critical rating, you can't compete with the crazy ultimate return. You barely get to make use of Piercing Spear just because of skill placements.

So again, the easiest fix for Magplars instead of completely overhauling them would be to change their damage type, hell even reflective light used to deal magic damage till we caused enough arguments and they changed it to fire damage. What about everything else?

LiquidPony · March 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

@LiquidPony ... I am far from beeing an expert, but NBs as well as sorcerers have easy access to buffs that help them alot in utilizing magic (and NBs also physical) damage. But I agree that I know too little to know how both classes play out.

For templars it seems to boil down to burning light (passive) which is without doubt awesome, but restricted to abilities of only one (namely the tanking!) branch of our skill tree, empower... and minor sorcery. (? that's it, right?)

As for stamplars... they are pretty generic right now, they do their part, but just ask those stamplars you deem desirable how many class skills they actually use. ... and their ability to utilize buffs from class abilities are in a very sad state, too. /edit: running in groups and getting buffed they can be aweseome, I agree on that... but on the other hand, they are not designed for group support (stamplars (usually) don't heal! and rarely apply the magic skill shards) and, again my personal perception, rely heavily on someone charging them with stam.

The way I percieve it: They used to say that leveling a NB is difficult, right? I currently do level a NB and I am amazed how easy it is to make whatever gear and weapons she finds and puts on, get to work. Yes, i am not a newbie and do try to use sets, but even after 4 years of playing stamplar ( and some hybrieplar) I am sure leveling a templar wouldn't be that easy (I've done that already!). But yeah, thats my limited perspective, only.

edit edit: To sum this up, I really think some sort of synergy unique to templars would be a really nice thing for the class as a whole, I am fine if its linked (and thereby limited) to some elemental/physical form of damage. Any perspective for the class is welcome, if you've read joy's latest readup on templars you may get insight to why we templars moan and groan so much. Currently it works (more or less), but it doesn't play well.

How is a stamplar any more generic than any other stamina build? Virtually every stam build uses: Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Razor Caltrops, Rearming Trap, Deadly Cloak, Rending Slashes, and Flawless Dawnbreaker on one bar. Some builds use the bow ulti, and the other 4 open skill slots are filled with class skills or Fighters Guild skills slotted for the weapon damage buff.

Stamsorc is by far the "most generic," with no class spammable and Bound Armaments double slotted.

Also think it's weird to say that stamplars "are not designed for group support" when every raid group runs a stamplar specifically for the unique buffs/debuffs they provide (Minor Fracture/Breach from Power of the Light, and using that skill also grants the group Minor Sorcery via the Illuminate passive).

Honestly I think if Jabs and Crescent Sweep were just tuned up a bit, stamplars would be every bit as good as stamblades (since Jabs and Crescent Sweep cleave as opposed to the pure single target Surprise Attack/Incap) or stamsorcs. Right now, a lot of raid stamplars don't do great DPS because they're in the buff role, running gear and loadouts that are better for the group than they are for the wearer. Put a stamplar in VO/Automaton using Ballista instead of Crescent Sweeps and their DPS is pretty darn close to what sorcs and NBs are doing.

Elsterchen · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

yea but compared to my magplar, those stamplars ruin my day lol. They could get morphs, im just hesitant when they gave cresant sweep to them but because dawnbreaker is so much better designed, almost none use creasant sweep (maybe a few actually admit using it, but it's hard to beat getting passive weapon damage.)

Possible Stamplar morphs:
- hasty prayer (mobile stamplar healers )
- total dark should grant a buff stamplars can use with the heal scaling off max stat like burning light does.

Those two would allow stamplars to use all of the resto line passives and get a defensive spell from dawns wraith to help with dodge roll defense.

I use that ultimate sometimes (PVE) ... its nice damage for the price, hitting even moving targets (moves along) and adds to potL... so yeah, I kind of like that one for my backbar. Running PUGs one never knows which sort of tank will come along and jabs in combination with a boss wandering around while fighting is painfully inefficient...

For PVP its a totally different story, one can use it... and yeah, its definately more effective then nova, but unless you happen to face a bunch of enemies and really can make use of that extra damage (plus have a healer pulling you through whatever the bunch throws at you) its not worth it. ... and idk about you, but I rather try to avoid facing a bunch of enemies in PVP - feels like beeing hit by a bus, too often.

As for your morph suggestions, I will try anything and see how it plays out.

LiquidPony · March 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

Not that long ago? It's been over a year since Magplars had a spot in Raid, and it wasn't because of their non amazing single target with beam, it was because they had great AoE capabilities that made fights easy back then when it wasn't all about single target damage because they could run Dual Wield and get 5pc bonuses, running Twice Born Star with Moondancer, however this is not viable anymore at all staves got buffed too much, magplars can barely sustain in raids their circle has been nerfed too many times that it's pretty meh for sustained return as you have to move around far too much for mechanics, this is another failed attempt at outdated playstyles that ZOS never fixed with their "templar house". And fyi you only had like 2 Magplars in raid because Dragonknights were still better

Nightblades are on top because of their passives, their passives just allow great damage

Soul Harvest - While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain Ultimate.
Pressure Points - Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Refreshing Shadows - Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.
Dark Vigor - Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Catalyst - After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown

Compare it to specifically a Magicka Templar passives

Piercing Spear - Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted
Burning Light - When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal an additional [x] Physical Damage or [y] Magic Damage, whicever is higher. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.
Restoring Spirit - Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.
Illuminate (group buff) - Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
Prism - Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 3 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

So, you don't have any recovery passives you just have reduced cost by 4%, you don't get a max magicka bonus, you don't get increased critical rating, you can't compete with the crazy ultimate return. You barely get to make use of Piercing Spear just because of skill placements.

So again, the easiest fix for Magplars instead of completely overhauling them would be to change their damage type, hell even reflective light used to deal magic damage till we caused enough arguments and they changed it to fire damage. What about everything else?

Sure, it's been a while ... One Tamriel through Homestead specifically is when I recall we had 4 Templars in most groups (2 healers, 2 DDs). But a bit over a year ago isn't really all that long in the grand scheme of things.

And I do completely agree that magplars are way underperforming as DPS. And perhaps you're right that changing some of their damage to flame damage would help, I just don't think the fact that they do magic damage is the cause of the problem. It's sustain, broken/nerfed skills, the decline of DW magicka builds in general, and the fact that no one wants melee magicka builds in raid when stam can do much more DPS and actually survive now.

Honest question though: maybe this is intended? The current meta as of Dragon Bones is very heavy on sorc and NB for DPS, which also happen to be the classes that don't get used (in the meta) for any roles other than DPS. So does ZOS actually want PvE templars/DKs to be able compete with sorc and NB DPS? I'm not sure they do. And I'm also not sure that's inherently a bad thing, because if you wind back the leaderboards to times when templars and DKs were top dogs in DPS, the leaderboards are just jammed full of those classes. Pre-HotR, you've got 5-6 DKs in a lot of groups. Pre-Homestead you've got 4 DKs and 4 templars in a lot of groups (and often no Nightblades at all).

Purely from a perspective of "count the number of times each class appears on the raid leaderboards," there's more "balance" right now than at any time I can remember. On the current MoL leaderboards: 289 sorcs, 258 templars, 297 nightblades, 298 DKs.

Joy_Division · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Honest question though: maybe this is intended? The current meta as of Dragon Bones is very heavy on sorc and NB for DPS, which also happen to be the classes that don't get used (in the meta) for any roles other than DPS. So does ZOS actually want PvE templars/DKs to be able compete with sorc and NB DPS? I'm not sure they do. And I'm also not sure that's inherently a bad thing, because if you wind back the leaderboards to times when templars and DKs were top dogs in DPS, the leaderboards are just jammed full of those classes. Pre-HotR, you've got 5-6 DKs in a lot of groups. Pre-Homestead you've got 4 DKs and 4 templars in a lot of groups (and often no Nightblades at all).

Purely from a perspective of "count the number of times each class appears on the raid leaderboards," there's more "balance" right now than at any time I can remember. On the current MoL leaderboards: 289 sorcs, 258 templars, 297 nightblades, 298 DKs.

I doubt ZoS intended DK/Temp DPS to be bad. They been pretty hesitant to pigeonhole DKs as tanks and templars as healers, even if those class are best suited for those roles. I think the issue was that both those classes got left behind in the whole "melee is stam range is magicka" philosophy they used to address low stam DPS.

Nifty2g · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

Not that long ago? It's been over a year since Magplars had a spot in Raid, and it wasn't because of their non amazing single target with beam, it was because they had great AoE capabilities that made fights easy back then when it wasn't all about single target damage because they could run Dual Wield and get 5pc bonuses, running Twice Born Star with Moondancer, however this is not viable anymore at all staves got buffed too much, magplars can barely sustain in raids their circle has been nerfed too many times that it's pretty meh for sustained return as you have to move around far too much for mechanics, this is another failed attempt at outdated playstyles that ZOS never fixed with their "templar house". And fyi you only had like 2 Magplars in raid because Dragonknights were still better

Nightblades are on top because of their passives, their passives just allow great damage

Soul Harvest - While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain Ultimate.
Pressure Points - Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Refreshing Shadows - Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.
Dark Vigor - Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Catalyst - After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown

Compare it to specifically a Magicka Templar passives

Piercing Spear - Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted
Burning Light - When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal an additional [x] Physical Damage or [y] Magic Damage, whicever is higher. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.
Restoring Spirit - Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.
Illuminate (group buff) - Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
Prism - Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 3 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

So, you don't have any recovery passives you just have reduced cost by 4%, you don't get a max magicka bonus, you don't get increased critical rating, you can't compete with the crazy ultimate return. You barely get to make use of Piercing Spear just because of skill placements.

So again, the easiest fix for Magplars instead of completely overhauling them would be to change their damage type, hell even reflective light used to deal magic damage till we caused enough arguments and they changed it to fire damage. What about everything else?

Purely from a perspective of "count the number of times each class appears on the raid leaderboards," there's more "balance" right now than at any time I can remember. On the current MoL leaderboards: 289 sorcs, 258 templars, 297 nightblades, 298 DKs.

Sorry but how is this accurate? You run 2 templar healers and 1 stamplar, that's typically 3 templars per raid that are not magicka templar dd's

Dual Wield magicka never made sense and with how many damage staves do, I don't see the point in using it, another problem with templars is they dont get to use fire staves with their damage being mostly aoe

Gargath · March 2018

I'd like to see some day a destro staff abilities that don't change to elemental in a moment they are put on skill bar, instead giving magic damage all the time, especially with War Maiden set. My magplar uses it and wants Wall of Elements dealing magic damage.

LiquidPony · March 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

Not that long ago? It's been over a year since Magplars had a spot in Raid, and it wasn't because of their non amazing single target with beam, it was because they had great AoE capabilities that made fights easy back then when it wasn't all about single target damage because they could run Dual Wield and get 5pc bonuses, running Twice Born Star with Moondancer, however this is not viable anymore at all staves got buffed too much, magplars can barely sustain in raids their circle has been nerfed too many times that it's pretty meh for sustained return as you have to move around far too much for mechanics, this is another failed attempt at outdated playstyles that ZOS never fixed with their "templar house". And fyi you only had like 2 Magplars in raid because Dragonknights were still better

Nightblades are on top because of their passives, their passives just allow great damage

Soul Harvest - While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain Ultimate.
Pressure Points - Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Refreshing Shadows - Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.
Dark Vigor - Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Catalyst - After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown

Compare it to specifically a Magicka Templar passives

Piercing Spear - Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted
Burning Light - When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal an additional [x] Physical Damage or [y] Magic Damage, whicever is higher. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.
Restoring Spirit - Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.
Illuminate (group buff) - Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
Prism - Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 3 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

So, you don't have any recovery passives you just have reduced cost by 4%, you don't get a max magicka bonus, you don't get increased critical rating, you can't compete with the crazy ultimate return. You barely get to make use of Piercing Spear just because of skill placements.

So again, the easiest fix for Magplars instead of completely overhauling them would be to change their damage type, hell even reflective light used to deal magic damage till we caused enough arguments and they changed it to fire damage. What about everything else?

Purely from a perspective of "count the number of times each class appears on the raid leaderboards," there's more "balance" right now than at any time I can remember. On the current MoL leaderboards: 289 sorcs, 258 templars, 297 nightblades, 298 DKs.

Sorry but how is this accurate? You run 2 templar healers and 1 stamplar, that's typically 3 templars per raid that are not magicka templar dd's

Dual Wield magicka never made sense and with how many damage staves do, I don't see the point in using it, another problem with templars is they dont get to use fire staves with their damage being mostly aoe

Not sure what you're asking exactly. Those are just counts of classes from the current MoL leaderboards at eso-leaderboards.com.

Nifty2g · March 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Magblades also do exclusively "magic damage" from class skills (Soul Harvest, Impale, Assassin's Will, Twisting/Refreshing, Crippling Grasp, Funnel, Sap Essence, Shades, etc.) But magblades are top dog in magicka DPS, and they don't have any passives that buff magic damage either.

So yeah, obviously magplars are in a sorry state in PvE but I think it's a stretch to blame it entirely on the type of damage they do.

Also, Elemental Expert buffs magic damage so I don't see how magplars get any less out of CP than anyone else.

That's because they have easy access to minor beserk and higher base dmg abilities with lower costs.

Magplar doesn't have minor beserk, lower base dmg, and generally the base cost of spells are higher.

This leads to situations where templars aren't casting as much as nightblades and thus do lesser DPS than other classes because our main spamable pales compared to stamina melee. Then you add staff builds, which sorc/nightblade do higher DPS for little sacrifice, especially when sorcs have a boost to lighting damage and an execute that deals lighting damage.

Then if you bring nCP into the mix, the minor beserk will do wonders in pvp content. Magplar receives no such dmg boost easily.

I don't really care about PvP. Specifically I'm talking about PvE raid viability, since OP mentioned that specifically. In that environment, Minor Berserk is hardly worth noting except in vAS. And again, other classes that don't have Minor Berserk are plenty viable. That's not the issue, either.

So again I would say that the type of damage done by Templars is not the issue, nor is the lack of Minor Berserk. There was a time, not that terribly long ago, that we crammed as many Jesus Beams as possible into a raid group ... despite the fact that they were doing magic damage and didn't have a built-in source of Minor Berserk.

Not that long ago? It's been over a year since Magplars had a spot in Raid, and it wasn't because of their non amazing single target with beam, it was because they had great AoE capabilities that made fights easy back then when it wasn't all about single target damage because they could run Dual Wield and get 5pc bonuses, running Twice Born Star with Moondancer, however this is not viable anymore at all staves got buffed too much, magplars can barely sustain in raids their circle has been nerfed too many times that it's pretty meh for sustained return as you have to move around far too much for mechanics, this is another failed attempt at outdated playstyles that ZOS never fixed with their "templar house". And fyi you only had like 2 Magplars in raid because Dragonknights were still better

Nightblades are on top because of their passives, their passives just allow great damage

Soul Harvest - While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain Ultimate.
Pressure Points - Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Refreshing Shadows - Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%.
Dark Vigor - Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Catalyst - After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown

Compare it to specifically a Magicka Templar passives

Piercing Spear - Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted
Burning Light - When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal an additional [x] Physical Damage or [y] Magic Damage, whicever is higher. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.
Restoring Spirit - Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.
Illuminate (group buff) - Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
Prism - Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 3 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

So, you don't have any recovery passives you just have reduced cost by 4%, you don't get a max magicka bonus, you don't get increased critical rating, you can't compete with the crazy ultimate return. You barely get to make use of Piercing Spear just because of skill placements.

So again, the easiest fix for Magplars instead of completely overhauling them would be to change their damage type, hell even reflective light used to deal magic damage till we caused enough arguments and they changed it to fire damage. What about everything else?

Purely from a perspective of "count the number of times each class appears on the raid leaderboards," there's more "balance" right now than at any time I can remember. On the current MoL leaderboards: 289 sorcs, 258 templars, 297 nightblades, 298 DKs.

Sorry but how is this accurate? You run 2 templar healers and 1 stamplar, that's typically 3 templars per raid that are not magicka templar dd's

Dual Wield magicka never made sense and with how many damage staves do, I don't see the point in using it, another problem with templars is they dont get to use fire staves with their damage being mostly aoe

Not sure what you're asking exactly. Those are just counts of classes from the current MoL leaderboards at eso-leaderboards.com.

How can this account for balance is what I'm asking, raid groups include 2 templars for their healers mostly, and 1 stamplar for the buffs for the stamina characters, just because there is 258 templars doesn't mean they are balanced because I really doubt a large numbers of those are magicka templar dd's.

There is just no point bringing a magplar at all when Stamina Templars can provide illuminate buff on their own as well as power of the light.

eserras7b16_ESO · March 2018

Magicka Templar needs adjustment and i completely agree with mostly everything discussed in this post. There's a problem though, when we complain and they look into our class they end up breaking it at some point so i'm really confused...can't see if it's a good idea to complain at this point. Honest. There has been many great ideas to bring the class up and they still come up with useless ideas wich don't end up working. The class has been needing a buff in terms of damage for a while now.

Templars &amp; "Magic Damage" & Fixing The Issue

Templars & "Magic Damage" & Fixing The Issue