The Education of Dungeon/Trial Mechanics?

Ajitator · March 2018

There's been something I've been working on in game, and the latest post about DireFrost has me really thinking about what the best approach to this is so I guess I'll leave it here;

To those that know the mechanics of the dungeons; How do you approach explaining these mechanics to other players that do not know. I don't generally have my headphones on and most other randoms in groups I find don't. I have a keyboard and try to type things out but in most cases people move too quickly for that.. and I'm a fast typer.

I'm not talking about "Stay out of the red stuff" but more like;
- Drodda in Direfrost where everyone needs to save enough stam to break free otherwise all the dps is a waste.
- Neidir in Tempest island where if everyone stays within melee range she doesn't do her 1 shot lunge mechanic
- First ghost boss in Vaults of Madness where he does a damage feed with the blue beam

I've actually stopped taunting that last one because I'm sick of the group burning me while the redirect damage beam is up

How do you approach this quickly enough without sounding like you're talking down to players that know the mechanics? Most won't speak up if you ask if people know the mechanics ahead of time.

Just looking for general thoughts, I've almost given up on running these things though at this point.

Admins sorry if this is in wrong forum space.

FrancisCrawford · March 2018

If the group wipes, it's easier to get people's attention at that point. If the group doesn't wipe, then the tips weren't needed.

That said -- in my limited experience with DLC dungeons, people are willing to discuss mechanics in those.

Sergykid · March 2018

people i encounter this kind of problems with don't even read the chat, and end up kicked.

in other games, this information is offered to a player that seeks it, but in this game you must from external sources like google or other players. But it's not the only info the game doesn't provide

LadyNalcarya · March 2018

Drodda is just a badly designed boss imo.

Shes not tauntable at all, and if one player has bad connection/disability/doesnt read chat or understand English, youre doomed.
As for ingame explanations, people arent paying much attention to that. Tutorial teaches us how to block or break free and yet many players fail at that, even when they have champion rank already.

P.S. Actually there is an option to show combat tips, its in settings. Im pretty sure it tells you to break free from Droda's drain when you have to. Perhaps it would be nice if they would make it "on" by default.

Yakidafi · March 2018

I usually ask at start if everyone know mechanics. Work most of the time. Sometimes players will not say no because they are afraid to be kicked I think, but that just make it more annoying when you wipe bcs of that and you have to explain after.

Robo_Hobo · March 2018

Maybe someone could make an add-on to have some quick messages for those sorts of commonly unknown mechanics, so you can just type /drodda or something and it spits out that detailed message

For consoles, maybe that could be integrated into the quick chat message system I think they have there? I dunno if there is.

Ajitator · March 2018

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

For consoles, maybe that could be integrated into the quick chat message system I think they have there? I dunno if there is.

There is,.. but it's super clunky.. I can type out the mechanics faster than it takes to go through the "quick chat menu" ( I have a USB keyboard )

VaranisArano · March 2018

I used to tell the group the mechanics beforehand. Now I only say them if the group is struggling, with a few exceptions.

My exceptions are
1. Cirenas the Shepherd (focus her, not the adds) because I've had one group burn the adds and never again.
2. Engine Guardian, because we really do need to know if we are sticking to the healer or using levers
3. The 2nd to last boss on Crypt of Hearts where you have to not overlap the circles.

With most everything else, death is the best teacher. Most people listen better after they die.

Shantu · March 2018

There are so many variables involved in dungeons group dynamics, let alone learning boss mechanics, it can be utterly overwhelming. Tanks that don't tank, healers that don't heal, dps that can't dps, players who could care less about group interaction, know-it-alls who have a zero tolerance level. It can be quite disappointing to be kicked when you're working your butt off trying to stay alive and contribute...but not doing well trying to execute hours of rotation practice on moving targets while dodging boss abilities without getting wiped. Some players understand boss mechanics and adapt quickly. Others, like myself, it can take several attempts before we get it. All the while you're "learning on the job", so to speak, dealing with a disparate group of personal agendas. Personally, I really enjoy it when I can get into a group of players that actually want to interact and teach, and have the patience to let those who want to get better learn how to do so.

To the OP's point, when there's an issue with a boss, I'd say just ask if everyone knows what's going on. Some are going to be candid and listen, some won't. But I, for one, would appreciate any input that I might leverage to be a better player.

BigBadVolk · March 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Drodda is just a badly designed boss imo. Shes not tauntable at all, and if one player has bad connection/disability/doesnt read chat or understand English, youre doomed.
As for ingame explanations, people arent paying much attention to that. Tutorial teaches us how to block or break free and yet many players fail at that, even when they have champion rank already.

P.S. Actually there is an option to show combat tips, its in settings. Im pretty sure it tells you to break free from Droda's drain when you have to. Perhaps it would be nice if they would make it "on" by default.

Or just let a big colored title show up on the middle screen screaming BREAK FREE

madchuska83 · March 2018

For people who pay attention, most boss mechanics are gone over in some small way throughout the dungeon. i.e. rifts in WGT, spice in Mazz, crystals in the new dungeon.

Granted it doesn't cover everything but will give you at least some general knowledge.

Anotherone773 · March 2018

Shantu wrote: »

There are so many variables involved in dungeons group dynamics, let alone learning boss mechanics, it can be utterly overwhelming. Tanks that don't tank, healers that don't heal, dps that can't dps, players who could care less about group interaction, know-it-alls who have a zero tolerance level. It can be quite disappointing to be kicked when you're working your butt off trying to stay alive and contribute...but not doing well trying to execute hours of rotation practice on moving targets while dodging boss abilities without getting wiped. Some players understand boss mechanics and adapt quickly. Others, like myself, it can take several attempts before we get it. All the while you're "learning on the job", so to speak, dealing with a disparate group of personal agendas. Personally, I really enjoy it when I can get into a group of players that actually want to interact and teach, and have the patience to let those who want to get better learn how to do so.

To the OP's point, when there's an issue with a boss, I'd say just ask if everyone knows what's going on. Some are going to be candid and listen, some won't. But I, for one, would appreciate any input that I might leverage to be a better player.

I agree and it seems to be worse in ESO than other games but that may be because raid mechanics are put even in normal dungeons rather than left to end game content. The dungeons themselves are hard to learn unless you specific queue for one and run it over and over until you understand it. But what new player is going to do that when they get far better rewards for random queue. You then have the problem of blitzers and elitists. You are more likely to be kicked for not knowing the dungeon mechanics or doing less than good dps than you are for being a DPS pretending to be a tank, a DPS with one heal pretending to be a healer, or just a general ass.

Its not really a friendly environment. I love running dungeons normally, but i almost cannot stand to step foot in an ESO dungeon. And sadly i would take a group of newbies who cant tank, heal, or stay out of the red than i would vet players who often dont bother to do anything but get through as fast as possible or complain your not pulling 30k plus dps in a normal dungeon. I see all below 50s in my group and i know its going to probably be a nice run. I see all CP 300 plus, and im probably not going to enjoy it.

Id rather wipe repeatedly with a bunch of newbiess in group content than deal with a bunch of vets who are efficient at getting the dungeon done. Sad but true.

kylewwefan · March 2018

It wasn’t that hard on normal.

Group finder pugs are a mixed bag. Sometimes you get a supergroup that burns stuff down so fast....then there’s some that you have to play mechanics.

I’ve been trying to get a better handle on dungeons. It’s hard to figure out what to do on Vet, when the normal runs just out DPS everything so you never see what the mechanic actually is.

jaws343 · March 2018

I assume that everyone knows what they are doing until a wipe in Vet dungeons. After a wipe, I'll direct people to the proper mechanics. But I always have my mic on in Vet dungeons. However, in harder more mechanics based fights, especially the DLC dungeons, I will ask to make sure everyone knows the mechanics before we get to the fight.

I give a fight a few attempts with players who are learning the mechanics before losing my patience. But, if a player doesn't have chat or isn't acting like they are following the mechanics as they are explained, I do not put up with that for long. I don't mind wiping, personally spent 4 hours in Vet Scalecaller the first time as myself and a PUG learned the mechanics. But I do mind players who just can't learn, don't listen in chat, or refuse to take direction when they are doing something incorrectly.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2018

As tank and tactical leader when pugging daily, it took me a long long time to refine daily and finally figure out the most efficient recipe so I'll save you a few years of trouble:

1. Ask in group chat: any questions ? If no response Ready check and start the fight till wipe (since you know your role perfect it's easy enough to watch if the others know what they are doing and identify the problems or problem persons)
2. Address people friendly but directly with their name and explain them exactly what they are doing wrong until their feedback conveys to you that after your explanation they now properly understand what to do.
3. If you see a person with no acceptable play and no communication is possible in order to change that, warn/votekick-replace that person as needed on fair basis and communicate it up front to that person and the whole group (group chat) in the most honest and mild non-offensive way. For example: "I'm sorry person X: Last chance for you to get this right, if not I will have to replace you, no offense but you are not ready for this"
4. Goto line 1

VaranisArano · March 2018

The optional miniboss in Direfrost right before the ice atronach foreshadows the health drain/break free mechanic that Drodda has.

Ajitator · March 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

As tank and tactical leader when pugging daily, it took me a long long time to refine daily and finally figure out the most efficient recipe so I'll save you a few years of trouble:

1. Ask in group chat: any questions ? If no response Ready check and start the fight till wipe (since you know your role perfect it's easy enough to watch if the others know what they are doing and identify the problems or problem persons)
2. Address people friendly but directly with their name and explain them exactly what they are doing wrong until their feedback conveys to you that after your explanation they now properly understand what to do.
3. If you see a person with no acceptable play and no communication is possible in order to change that, warn/votekick-replace that person as needed on fair basis and communicate it up front to that person and the whole group (group chat) in the most honest and mild non-offensive way. For example: "I'm sorry person X: Last chance for you to get this right, if not I will have to replace you, no offense but you are not ready for this"
4. Goto line 1

I mostly play a tank and try to take a similar route. It seems to be a rough balance of giving new players enough time to learn through trial and error and not boring or pissing off the players that know what they're doing enough to rage quit the group.

Ajitator · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The optional miniboss in Direfrost right before the ice atronach foreshadows the health drain/break free mechanic that Drodda has.

My point was that at no time does it say "When you're stuck in this CC you're refilling the bosses health by 100000".

Generally once people realize something is directly detrimental to completing the dungeon they stop doing it. Just tough to get them to realize that more than just "I can't hit my buttons so i'll break free when I can"

Androconium · March 2018

Shantu wrote: »

There are so many variables involved in dungeons group dynamics, let alone learning boss mechanics, it can be utterly overwhelming. Tanks that don't tank, healers that don't heal, dps that can't dps, players who could care less about group interaction, know-it-alls who have a zero tolerance level. It can be quite disappointing to be kicked when you're working your butt off trying to stay alive and contribute...but not doing well trying to execute hours of rotation practice on moving targets while dodging boss abilities without getting wiped. Some players understand boss mechanics and adapt quickly. Others, like myself, it can take several attempts before we get it. All the while you're "learning on the job", so to speak, dealing with a disparate group of personal agendas. Personally, I really enjoy it when I can get into a group of players that actually want to interact and teach, and have the patience to let those who want to get better learn how to do so.

To the OP's point, when there's an issue with a boss, I'd say just ask if everyone knows what's going on. Some are going to be candid and listen, some won't. But I, for one, would appreciate any input that I might leverage to be a better player.

Well.
For those power players (PVP overlords) that don't really understand the concept of "random", please read all this again.
What is described here is the mindset that most ordinary, regular players go into a dungeon with.

You can't 'git gud' with any particular boss until you actually play the same boss many times. That means that you will have a different group of players to deal with (and learn about) every time.

It never occurs to anyone that players appearing as 'fake role' are actually attempting that role for the first time, in order to develop their skill.

Most of my group-play sees me arriving last (thanks Mongolian Yurt Route). When I get there, the other 3 have already started and there is no group discussion going on. Very rarely does the Leader take that particular role seriously.

(thanks for the practical contribution to this issue)

VaranisArano · March 2018

Androconium wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

There are so many variables involved in dungeons group dynamics, let alone learning boss mechanics, it can be utterly overwhelming. Tanks that don't tank, healers that don't heal, dps that can't dps, players who could care less about group interaction, know-it-alls who have a zero tolerance level. It can be quite disappointing to be kicked when you're working your butt off trying to stay alive and contribute...but not doing well trying to execute hours of rotation practice on moving targets while dodging boss abilities without getting wiped. Some players understand boss mechanics and adapt quickly. Others, like myself, it can take several attempts before we get it. All the while you're "learning on the job", so to speak, dealing with a disparate group of personal agendas. Personally, I really enjoy it when I can get into a group of players that actually want to interact and teach, and have the patience to let those who want to get better learn how to do so.

To the OP's point, when there's an issue with a boss, I'd say just ask if everyone knows what's going on. Some are going to be candid and listen, some won't. But I, for one, would appreciate any input that I might leverage to be a better player.

Well.
For those power players (PVP overlords) that don't really understand the concept of "random", please read all this again.
What is described here is the mindset that most ordinary, regular players go into a dungeon with.

You can't 'git gud' with any particular boss until you actually play the same boss many times. That means that you will have a different group of players to deal with (and learn about) every time.

It never occurs to anyone that players appearing as 'fake role' are actually attempting that role for the first time, in order to develop their skill.

Most of my group-play sees me arriving last (thanks Mongolian Yurt Route). When I get there, the other 3 have already started and there is no group discussion going on. Very rarely does the Leader take that particular role seriously.

(thanks for the practical contribution to this issue)

There's a distinct difference between a learning tank, who when asked if they've got a taunt actually listens and equips a taunt, and a fake tank who's response is "LOL, its normal u don't need a tank".

I main a tank. When I'm on my dps or healer, I can tell the difference between a tank who's trying but has no clue and a DPS who queued as a tank with zero interest in actually performing the role of a tank.

Healers tend to get the same thing. Most noon healers do okay as long as they have actual heals equipped. Then there's the "if the boss is dead it cant hurt you so I'm just going to kill the boss" dps who queued as a healer, who might have Vigor but probably isn't going to help the group with actual healing.

DDs on the other hand...there's just good dps and bad dps, and players need practice. I get that, and unless the dps is really terrible and literally cannot beat boss mechanics, I'm not going to complain.

QuebraRegra · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

I used to tell the group the mechanics beforehand. Now I only say them if the group is struggling, with a few exceptions.

My exceptions are
1. Cirenas the Shepherd (focus her, not the adds) because I've had one group burn the adds and never again.
2. Engine Guardian, because we really do need to know if we are sticking to the healer or using levers
3. The 2nd to last boss on Crypt of Hearts where you have to not overlap the circles.

With most everything else, death is the best teacher. Most people listen better after they die.

#2 and #3 for sure... I often find that the PUG AOE stuff unintentionally kills Cirenas adds anyway

LOL, that engine guardian thing in an uncoordinated group is a guaranteed fail.

As for the Crypt of heart boss... That circles phase doesn't usually kick in until the boss is burned as much as halfway down (groups DPS depending). From there, as the healer, I hope to survive that first circle event, if not hopefully someone picks me up... from there, I find it easier to just let anyone who dies stay unrez'd, then usually just I and the tank finish the job. In many cases, I'm the last one remaining, so I switch into DPS and survival mode and just finish the boss solo (if I try and pick up the tank I'll often be killed in the time it takes to rez them). I usually have to explain why I didn't rez anyone afterward (as they are more a liability while they are moving, and they already contributed sufficient initial damage for me to safely finish for us. The benefit of running a MAGBLADE healer, etc.