Many progression guilds advertise they need DPS "> 35K". Good bye sorcs?

frozzzen101 · March 2018

With Lover and self buffed ele drain on heavy attack circular rotation. And I haven't cleared vMoL yet, so you are wrong about only 1% of 1% being able to hit decent enough numbers. It is one of my best results but it's here mostly to make a point.

Slightly extended windows so you can see more details of the parse.
4 Moondancer 5 Necro 2 Zaan, vMA infused lightning staff backbar(berserker), infused Moondancer (fire glyph) frontbat.
56, ele expert, 34 elfborn, 43 erosion, 6 staff expert, 20 master at arms, 81 thaumaturge

So it's slightly dated CwC setup +Zaan without switching to meta relevant stuff like acuity and no perfected staves. Illambris is roughly 700 or so dps loss if you cannot use Zaan's reliably but there isn't all that many such encounters.

la LL la blockade swap la petpulse ha prey ha clench swap repeat. Reapply drain on backbar when it runs out or is close, swap ha clench part for la clench la shooting star when you get 170 ulti, start with petpulse active and drop destro ult while sending minions in combat and start your la LL so they hit all at the same time for bursty opening. <25% is applying your 3 strongest dots and spamming execute. Without Lover you will still be anywhere between high 37s and low 39s in terms of damage output depending on your skill level. I managed to break 40k on a sorc with same rotation in thief mundus grand total of one time in DB so 40k is still doable.

I mean, let's not pretend that sorc didn't get hit hard. They did, but you can still pull out decent numbes with them on a dummy. Requirements of 35k dps aren't out of reach, even if you insist on heavy attack rotation. If player of medium-high skill level in ranged dd slot wants to be effective in vet trials (ie, OP who is struggling to hit 35k) ha petsorc is still the way to go. Doing magblade rotation and executing it flawlessly is sign of leaderboard score hunter rather than progression guild who is up to clear trials for the first time. It is just that sorcs aren't on top of mag food chain anymore and NBs are best now.

Personally, I think it's the way it should be given the absurdity of magNB rotation and effort required to master that class while dealing with mechanics of the encounter, your crap PC and Africa tier internet connection. Heck, my guilds magDDs are 4 petsorcs because of simplicity of said rotation. Effort/dps ratio is still best if you are doing sorc ha rotation so stick with it and practice.

If ZoS decides to give us a bone and allow one bar for pets (6h duration summon for both sorcs and wardens) and gives them exceptions to some mechanics like permastun in HoF or chain lightning bounce in AA in the fashion they gave them immunity from Warrior's Shehai storm I think sorcs would be in really good spot for people who are progressing trough the content and ceiling would still belong to NBs.

Aria_GuildDestroyer · March 2018

I don't know many trial guilds that don't differentiate requirements between mag or stam toons. I'd say the 35k requirement you mention is usually meant for stam; usually the mag requirement is lower, around 30k. If you don't have the time to make different toons for different patches (because yeah, part of the game is having the meta change), then you probably won't be able to do certain content in certain patches (and that's just the way it is). If you've gotten your vMoL and vHoF clears than you know why those requirements are place. If you're looking for a guild to progress through those trials with, then those requirements are probably still going to be in place because a large part of completing those DLC trials in vet mode require high group dps. I know some people will never be able to complete those trials because they either don't have the time, or don't want to spend the time improving their dps. But it's an unavoidable truth in completing end-game content - DPS matters, big time.

Asardes · March 2018

vMoL and the HM were cleared with 25-30K average DPS nearly 2 years ago, when there were few sets, CP was capped to 500 and there weren't so many effects like off-balance. Yes, higher DPS does allow you to skip mechanics, and do things more straight forward, but that doesn't magically allow you to progress the trial. If everyone does 35K as melee and 30K as ranged but prioritize targets right, don't die to avoidable mechanics and stay in the right group at Twins they will finish the trial in about 35-40 minutes, give or take. The vast majority of wipes is due to people messing the mechanics and not picking the right targets, not low raw DPS. When DPS checks are failed, it's usually because people died and couldn't be resurrected in time, not because they stayed alive and haven't pulled enough due to imperfect rotation. Same goes for pretty much every trial and dungeon.

Aria_GuildDestroyer · March 2018

Asardes wrote: »

vMoL and the HM were cleared with 25-30K average DPS nearly 2 years ago, when there were few sets, CP was capped to 500 and there weren't so many effects like off-balance. Yes, higher DPS does allow you to skip mechanics, and do things more straight forward, but that doesn't magically allow you to progress the trial. If everyone does 35K as melee and 30K as ranged but prioritize targets right, don't die to avoidable mechanics and stay in the right group at Twins they will finish the trial in about 35-40 minutes, give or take. The vast majority of wipes is due to people messing the mechanics and not picking the right targets, not low raw DPS. When DPS checks are failed, it's usually because people died and couldn't be resurrected in time, not because they stayed alive and haven't pulled enough due to imperfect rotation. Same goes for pretty much every trial and dungeon.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but regardless, the group had a group dps of over 200k, and that's 25k each with mechanics, not 25k on a dummy when nothing is hitting you. For sure, knowledge of mechanics and following through on mechanics is just as great a threat to not completing; but the dps checks are still an additional barrier.

jakeedmundson · March 2018

frozzzen101 wrote: »

With Lover and self buffed ele drain on heavy attack circular rotation. And I haven't cleared vMoL yet, so you are wrong about only 1% of 1% being able to hit decent enough numbers. It is one of my best results but it's here mostly to make a point.

Slightly extended windows so you can see more details of the parse.
4 Moondancer 5 Necro 2 Zaan, vMA infused lightning staff backbar(berserker), infused Moondancer (fire glyph) frontbat.
56, ele expert, 34 elfborn, 43 erosion, 6 staff expert, 20 master at arms, 81 thaumaturge

So it's slightly dated CwC setup +Zaan without switching to meta relevant stuff like acuity and no perfected staves. Illambris is roughly 700 or so dps loss if you cannot use Zaan's reliably but there isn't all that many such encounters.

la LL la blockade swap la petpulse ha prey ha clench swap repeat. Reapply drain on backbar when it runs out or is close, swap ha clench part for la clench la shooting star when you get 170 ulti, start with petpulse active and drop destro ult while sending minions in combat and start your la LL so they hit all at the same time for bursty opening. <25% is applying your 3 strongest dots and spamming execute. Without Lover you will still be anywhere between high 37s and low 39s in terms of damage output depending on your skill level. I managed to break 40k on a sorc with same rotation in thief mundus grand total of one time in DB so 40k is still doable.

I mean, let's not pretend that sorc didn't get hit hard. They did, but you can still pull out decent numbes with them on a dummy. Requirements of 35k dps aren't out of reach, even if you insist on heavy attack rotation. If player of medium-high skill level in ranged dd slot wants to be effective in vet trials (ie, OP who is struggling to hit 35k) ha petsorc is still the way to go. Doing magblade rotation and executing it flawlessly is sign of leaderboard score hunter rather than progression guild who is up to clear trials for the first time. It is just that sorcs aren't on top of mag food chain anymore and NBs are best now.

Personally, I think it's the way it should be given the absurdity of magNB rotation and effort required to master that class while dealing with mechanics of the encounter, your crap PC and Africa tier internet connection. Heck, my guilds magDDs are 4 petsorcs because of simplicity of said rotation. Effort/dps ratio is still best if you are doing sorc ha rotation so stick with it and practice.

If ZoS decides to give us a bone and allow one bar for pets (6h duration summon for both sorcs and wardens) and gives them exceptions to some mechanics like permastun in HoF or chain lightning bounce in AA in the fashion they gave them immunity from Warrior's Shehai storm I think sorcs would be in really good spot for people who are progressing trough the content and ceiling would still belong to NBs.

This is interesting to see... i was a little surprised at how little zaan actually did in your parse. i thought you usually see illambris total up to 2.5k (lightning and flame damage)?

one question, is your front bar a lightning staff or inferno?

Danksta · March 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

frozzzen101 wrote: »

With Lover and self buffed ele drain on heavy attack circular rotation. And I haven't cleared vMoL yet, so you are wrong about only 1% of 1% being able to hit decent enough numbers. It is one of my best results but it's here mostly to make a point.

Slightly extended windows so you can see more details of the parse.
4 Moondancer 5 Necro 2 Zaan, vMA infused lightning staff backbar(berserker), infused Moondancer (fire glyph) frontbat.
56, ele expert, 34 elfborn, 43 erosion, 6 staff expert, 20 master at arms, 81 thaumaturge

So it's slightly dated CwC setup +Zaan without switching to meta relevant stuff like acuity and no perfected staves. Illambris is roughly 700 or so dps loss if you cannot use Zaan's reliably but there isn't all that many such encounters.

la LL la blockade swap la petpulse ha prey ha clench swap repeat. Reapply drain on backbar when it runs out or is close, swap ha clench part for la clench la shooting star when you get 170 ulti, start with petpulse active and drop destro ult while sending minions in combat and start your la LL so they hit all at the same time for bursty opening. <25% is applying your 3 strongest dots and spamming execute. Without Lover you will still be anywhere between high 37s and low 39s in terms of damage output depending on your skill level. I managed to break 40k on a sorc with same rotation in thief mundus grand total of one time in DB so 40k is still doable.

I mean, let's not pretend that sorc didn't get hit hard. They did, but you can still pull out decent numbes with them on a dummy. Requirements of 35k dps aren't out of reach, even if you insist on heavy attack rotation. If player of medium-high skill level in ranged dd slot wants to be effective in vet trials (ie, OP who is struggling to hit 35k) ha petsorc is still the way to go. Doing magblade rotation and executing it flawlessly is sign of leaderboard score hunter rather than progression guild who is up to clear trials for the first time. It is just that sorcs aren't on top of mag food chain anymore and NBs are best now.

Personally, I think it's the way it should be given the absurdity of magNB rotation and effort required to master that class while dealing with mechanics of the encounter, your crap PC and Africa tier internet connection. Heck, my guilds magDDs are 4 petsorcs because of simplicity of said rotation. Effort/dps ratio is still best if you are doing sorc ha rotation so stick with it and practice.

If ZoS decides to give us a bone and allow one bar for pets (6h duration summon for both sorcs and wardens) and gives them exceptions to some mechanics like permastun in HoF or chain lightning bounce in AA in the fashion they gave them immunity from Warrior's Shehai storm I think sorcs would be in really good spot for people who are progressing trough the content and ceiling would still belong to NBs.

This is interesting to see... i was a little surprised at how little zaan actually did in your parse. i thought you usually see illambris total up to 2.5k (lightning and flame damage)?

one question, is your front bar a lightning staff or inferno?

Lightning

frozzzen101 · March 2018

Yeah, lightning Moondancer staff frontbar.

Reason why Zaan is that low dps in this parse is simply because parse ended exactly before 4th Zaan proc would happen. If parse lasted roughly 10 more seconds it would almost guarantee 4th Zaan proc and then it would be ~2800-2900 dps. Illambris isn't as strong on this build because my only fire damage in entire kit is flame glyph on frontbar and burning that is applied by that glyph. So my lightning portion of Illambris is usually 1100-1300 and and fire is 400-800 and averaging 1800 or so. So if you can, I'd always recommend using Zaan over Illambris on single target when you can use Zaan to its fullest.

I'd guess Illambris would be much more reliable if you had force pulse rotation since every spamable would have chance to proc it, and when coupled with Asylum staff it would go off like crazy. Different builds different flavors.

Destruent · March 2018

Aria_GuildDestroyer wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

vMoL and the HM were cleared with 25-30K average DPS nearly 2 years ago, when there were few sets, CP was capped to 500 and there weren't so many effects like off-balance. Yes, higher DPS does allow you to skip mechanics, and do things more straight forward, but that doesn't magically allow you to progress the trial. If everyone does 35K as melee and 30K as ranged but prioritize targets right, don't die to avoidable mechanics and stay in the right group at Twins they will finish the trial in about 35-40 minutes, give or take. The vast majority of wipes is due to people messing the mechanics and not picking the right targets, not low raw DPS. When DPS checks are failed, it's usually because people died and couldn't be resurrected in time, not because they stayed alive and haven't pulled enough due to imperfect rotation. Same goes for pretty much every trial and dungeon.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but regardless, the group had a group dps of over 200k, and that's 25k each with mechanics, not 25k on a dummy when nothing is hitting you. For sure, knowledge of mechanics and following through on mechanics is just as great a threat to not completing; but the dps checks are still an additional barrier.

If your DPS in a Raid is lower than on a dummy (not in vAS) your group needs to work on groupsupport....not individual DPS.
The 25k...30k DPS we had in raidgroups when we first cleared vMoL were more like 20k...25k solo back then. And now there are even more possibilities to buff DPS, especially for stamina.
Just an example (from last patch..but still...)
Stam-Templar
solo: ~35k
+ major fracture: ~40k
+ full raidbuff: ~55k (with bugs...probably 60k+ without bugs)

pls stop with that "DPS goes down in raids blablubb"-nonsense

Joy_Division · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's some days I am looking for a decent (not necessarily top) trials progression guild.
Most of those that are above mediocre, demand DPS > 35K.

Maybe they aren't aware that before Dragon Bones, you'd have basically Youtubers (using cheese parse builds) and end game fully geared, skilled players being able to achieve that.
It was perhaps 1% of the DPS playerbase, considering an abysmally tiny amount of people run veteran+ trials anyway.

Since several months, mag sorcs have received a number of nerfs, and since Dragon Bones, mag sorcs have lost again from 2 to 5k DPS due to off-balance changes.

Basically now Youtubers barely break 36-37k - and they are still using cheese builds nobody can use in trials. What about the others? Whereas I know a LOT of nightblades in my guilds who boast their 44k+ self buffed DPS, I don'tknow A SINGLE sorc spamming anything. The average do 25k even on veteran, the good ones do 30k, the top ones 35k => an handful of them.

Coming to this forum, all you see are NBs showing their 40k DPS peformance asking how to increase it, others who post a video of their 44k+.
And plenty of "I can't get to 25k DPS" sorc threads, with people giving advice about how to scratch 30k. In the last weeks I have found all of 1 (one) guy showing a video of himself doing > 35k DPS.

So, my question is: after Dragon Bones, if you want to join a good progression guild you basically have to shelve your mag sorc and join as "stam something" or a magblade?

Because there are more progression guilds than mag sorcs able to fulfill their minimum DPS requirement.

P.S. I expect this post to get either totally ignored (@ZOS_GinaBruno please prove me wrong) or flamed.

Before you flame, prove me you are real.
Post your Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

What is it that you want?

To be invited to a high end-raiding guild even though you are not a high end player?

You're just making excuses for why other people are able to hit 35K on a target dummy and you can't. "Cheese builds"? And this nugget:

Vahrokh wrote: »

You know, not everybody is born an Alcast or Andy.

What kind of crap is that? Alcast, Andy, and nobody else was born with the ability to pull 35K on a target dummy. They get that by studying the game, practicing everyday, and perfecting their rotations. All you are doing is just denigrating the time and practice people have put into doing something you can't. It's a cheap shot.

The best way to get into a trial guild is for them to invite you. Which is perfectly and absolutely possible, not to mention likely, if you are simply a good player. I have never parsed 35K DPS on a target dummy (I don't even have one) and I often get asked to do end-game PvE trials and have gotten offers for joining their guilds. I get asked because I have done enough content with enough people who play this game for them to recognize that I know how to play the game. When you are in a 4 man content with one of the newer DLC dungeons, it is immediately obvious if the people with you know what they are doing. In short, your play speaks for itself.

Stop making excuses. Not a single character I play is the "BIS" cookie-cutter standard demanded by what you claim are elitist guilds. Even I can't pull min-max numbers, that doesn't mean I can't play well enough for other good players to appreciate that I can make a solid contribution to an end-game raid.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

frozzzen101 wrote: »

With Lover and self buffed ele drain on heavy attack circular rotation. And I haven't cleared vMoL yet, so you are wrong about only 1% of 1% being able to hit decent enough numbers. It is one of my best results but it's here mostly to make a point.

Slightly extended windows so you can see more details of the parse.
4 Moondancer 5 Necro 2 Zaan, vMA infused lightning staff backbar(berserker), infused Moondancer (fire glyph) frontbat.
56, ele expert, 34 elfborn, 43 erosion, 6 staff expert, 20 master at arms, 81 thaumaturge

So it's slightly dated CwC setup +Zaan without switching to meta relevant stuff like acuity and no perfected staves. Illambris is roughly 700 or so dps loss if you cannot use Zaan's reliably but there isn't all that many such encounters.

la LL la blockade swap la petpulse ha prey ha clench swap repeat. Reapply drain on backbar when it runs out or is close, swap ha clench part for la clench la shooting star when you get 170 ulti, start with petpulse active and drop destro ult while sending minions in combat and start your la LL so they hit all at the same time for bursty opening. <25% is applying your 3 strongest dots and spamming execute. Without Lover you will still be anywhere between high 37s and low 39s in terms of damage output depending on your skill level. I managed to break 40k on a sorc with same rotation in thief mundus grand total of one time in DB so 40k is still doable.

I mean, let's not pretend that sorc didn't get hit hard. They did, but you can still pull out decent numbes with them on a dummy. Requirements of 35k dps aren't out of reach, even if you insist on heavy attack rotation. If player of medium-high skill level in ranged dd slot wants to be effective in vet trials (ie, OP who is struggling to hit 35k) ha petsorc is still the way to go. Doing magblade rotation and executing it flawlessly is sign of leaderboard score hunter rather than progression guild who is up to clear trials for the first time. It is just that sorcs aren't on top of mag food chain anymore and NBs are best now.

Personally, I think it's the way it should be given the absurdity of magNB rotation and effort required to master that class while dealing with mechanics of the encounter, your crap PC and Africa tier internet connection. Heck, my guilds magDDs are 4 petsorcs because of simplicity of said rotation. Effort/dps ratio is still best if you are doing sorc ha rotation so stick with it and practice.

If ZoS decides to give us a bone and allow one bar for pets (6h duration summon for both sorcs and wardens) and gives them exceptions to some mechanics like permastun in HoF or chain lightning bounce in AA in the fashion they gave them immunity from Warrior's Shehai storm I think sorcs would be in really good spot for people who are progressing trough the content and ceiling would still belong to NBs.

Pretty spot on.
TLDR: If you cant hit 35K on a mSorc, no way you are doing it on a mNB.

Runefang · March 2018

Problem with pet sorcs is that you can't use them in half the fights that really matter. I know if I was a guild leader I'd insist on a 35k no pet parse.

jakeedmundson · March 2018

Runefang wrote: »

Problem with pet sorcs is that you can't use them in half the fights that really matter. I know if I was a guild leader I'd insist on a 35k no pet parse.

There's only a few boss fights where you can't use pets... but yeah it sucks when you have to switch it off mid trial.

ZOS needs to make pets "invisible" to boss fight effects. (and friendly effects like SPC from healers)
- won't proc chain lightning on mage fight
- won't attract lightning damage on St. Olms
- etc... you get the idea.

SoLooney · March 2018

good, mag sorcs needed to be shelved after how rampant they were in 2017.

nightblades actually take skill to play while mag sorcs can put a few dots down and aimlessly heavy attack

they arent dead, groups will want 1 for off balance and some cleave, but they just cant compare to magblades in terms of single target

getting 35k plus on a mag sorc btw isnt hard

Vahrokh · March 2018

SoLooney wrote: »

good, mag sorcs needed to be shelved after how rampant they were in 2017.

nightblades actually take skill to play while mag sorcs can put a few dots down and aimlessly heavy attack

they arent dead, groups will want 1 for off balance and some cleave, but they just cant compare to magblades in terms of single target

getting 35k plus on a mag sorc btw isnt hard

That has to be why there are frequent threads about people who don't reach 25k (much less 35k), including one on first page here right today.

Define "hard". If only a minority can do a thing, it could be because of 100 things. In example, you could have a car able to only go at 140 km/h. It's not hard to go 150 km/h, but with that car it's not so immediate.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's some days I am looking for a decent (not necessarily top) trials progression guild.
Most of those that are above mediocre, demand DPS > 35K.

Maybe they aren't aware that before Dragon Bones, you'd have basically Youtubers (using cheese parse builds) and end game fully geared, skilled players being able to achieve that.
It was perhaps 1% of the DPS playerbase, considering an abysmally tiny amount of people run veteran+ trials anyway.

Since several months, mag sorcs have received a number of nerfs, and since Dragon Bones, mag sorcs have lost again from 2 to 5k DPS due to off-balance changes.

Basically now Youtubers barely break 36-37k - and they are still using cheese builds nobody can use in trials. What about the others? Whereas I know a LOT of nightblades in my guilds who boast their 44k+ self buffed DPS, I don'tknow A SINGLE sorc spamming anything. The average do 25k even on veteran, the good ones do 30k, the top ones 35k => an handful of them.

Coming to this forum, all you see are NBs showing their 40k DPS peformance asking how to increase it, others who post a video of their 44k+.
And plenty of "I can't get to 25k DPS" sorc threads, with people giving advice about how to scratch 30k. In the last weeks I have found all of 1 (one) guy showing a video of himself doing > 35k DPS.

So, my question is: after Dragon Bones, if you want to join a good progression guild you basically have to shelve your mag sorc and join as "stam something" or a magblade?

Because there are more progression guilds than mag sorcs able to fulfill their minimum DPS requirement.

P.S. I expect this post to get either totally ignored (@ZOS_GinaBruno please prove me wrong) or flamed.

Before you flame, prove me you are real.
Post your Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

What is it that you want?

To be invited to a high end-raiding guild even though you are not a high end player?

You're just making excuses for why other people are able to hit 35K on a target dummy and you can't. "Cheese builds"? And this nugget:

I didn't invent the term. It's the term usually used to describe click-bait youtubers who use all kind tricks and of shortcuts to show off bloated results.

Also, as I have repeatedly stated, it's not about "me", it's my whole class that is getting nerfed since a year, has lost class signature abilities and now it's gone way beyond a fair rebalance.

The cheap shot is actually implying Alcast "just" trained and studied to become who he is. No. He would not be in Hodor if he was just a regular trained and studied guy.

SoLooney wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

You know, not everybody is born an Alcast or Andy.

What kind of crap is that? Alcast, Andy, and nobody else was born with the ability to pull 35K on a target dummy. They get that by studying the game, practicing everyday, and perfecting their rotations. All you are doing is just denigrating the time and practice people have put into doing something you can't. It's a cheap shot.

It's not a cheap shot. It's just recognizing that some people are just born natural at some things.
Then, with training and practice they get even better. Like Usain Bolt, he trained and practiced like every other athlete but... he was born a natural talent. Normal people could train and practice all their life and never come close to him.

SoLooney wrote: »

Stop making excuses. Not a single character I play is the "BIS" cookie-cutter standard demanded by what you claim are elitist guilds. Even I can't pull min-max numbers, that doesn't mean I can't play well enough for other good players to appreciate that I can make a solid contribution to an end-game raid.

It's good you are taken for your social skills. However I'd like a game where one can be taken for that... or because he has the same hard ceiling the others have.

Mister_DMC · March 2018

I feel the amount of time spent replying to this forum would have been better spent testing gear and rotations to hit the DPS requirements... Just saying.

Aria_GuildDestroyer · March 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Aria_GuildDestroyer wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

vMoL and the HM were cleared with 25-30K average DPS nearly 2 years ago, when there were few sets, CP was capped to 500 and there weren't so many effects like off-balance. Yes, higher DPS does allow you to skip mechanics, and do things more straight forward, but that doesn't magically allow you to progress the trial. If everyone does 35K as melee and 30K as ranged but prioritize targets right, don't die to avoidable mechanics and stay in the right group at Twins they will finish the trial in about 35-40 minutes, give or take. The vast majority of wipes is due to people messing the mechanics and not picking the right targets, not low raw DPS. When DPS checks are failed, it's usually because people died and couldn't be resurrected in time, not because they stayed alive and haven't pulled enough due to imperfect rotation. Same goes for pretty much every trial and dungeon.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but regardless, the group had a group dps of over 200k, and that's 25k each with mechanics, not 25k on a dummy when nothing is hitting you. For sure, knowledge of mechanics and following through on mechanics is just as great a threat to not completing; but the dps checks are still an additional barrier.

If your DPS in a Raid is lower than on a dummy (not in vAS) your group needs to work on groupsupport....not individual DPS.
The 25k...30k DPS we had in raidgroups when we first cleared vMoL were more like 20k...25k solo back then. And now there are even more possibilities to buff DPS, especially for stamina.
Just an example (from last patch..but still...)
Stam-Templar
solo: ~35k
+ major fracture: ~40k
+ full raidbuff: ~55k (with bugs...probably 60k+ without bugs)

pls stop with that "DPS goes down in raids blablubb"-nonsense

Dude he's talking about Progression guilds - not guilds that have mechanics down to a T and can compensate for poor dps. You're arguing about a circumstance that doesn't really happen in ESO anymore - you don't have low dps guilds clearing MoL, and if you do, it's taking them 3+ hours to do it. If you wanna argue that "it's possible" feel free, cause you're not wrong - it just doesn't matter when your talking to someone with low dps and a non-end-game understanding of the mechanics.

LeagueTroll · March 2018

34k potato mag sorc here. I agree it is very unfair magblade hit so much harder. But i am not seeing progression guilds want 35k mag, all i see is 35k stam req.

TimeWizard · March 2018

Mag sorcs are anywhere from dead. In fact, they are the only class with a pretty mag guarenteed spot in an optimised group. For one main reason. Conduit. The loss of conduit negatively affects the alkosh uptimes which, in turn, hurts everyone's dps. It may have gone from 4+ magsorcs per group in homestead to the 1 that it is now but they still have a place.

Also magsorcs can easily hit 35k. I run with sorcs that pull 38-42k on a 6mil with no lover. I've run in optimsed groups with some top tier dps where the magsorc outparsed their magblade counterparts. Id post parses, but I dont dps, and while I have access to parses from those I play with, I dont think I should post them here.

And yes this is a game where the meta changes every 3 months or so. Classes come and go from meta, BiS group comp changes. Magsorcs have probably had the best time out of any of them. Magdks had their glory in Homestead, but the changes in Morrowind banished them because they couldn't compete with stam. Magplars sunk in morrowind also, but emerged as a range class that could pull decent numbers but couldn't quite compete for the spots. Stam started sinking in Shadows of the Hist, and were buried for the entirety of homestead, because they couldn't survive and barely outparsed mag (if at all). Morrowind was a comeback for stam, when the changes to deadly cloak allowed them the survivability needed to competetive in trials. Magblade was barely heard of before Morrowind, and have been getting steadily better patch by patch since then. Wardens of every variety have been unable to compete for any meta group comp (with 1-2 exceptions). But you know what class has been there through everything? Magsorc.

Don't complain it's dead. It's not. Dont say it cant pull numbers. It can.

And yes the vast majority of the player base cant hit 35k on anything. Because the majority of the playerbase are not end-game raiders. If you cant pull the numbers, its not your class, its you. And you can learn, you just need acurite information, and practice.

ccfeeling · March 2018

Unfair? Lol
Mag sorc could hit 40k with more practices.

Runefang · March 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Unfair? Lol
Mag sorc could hit 40k with more practices.

Alcast has a parse with 43.6k. It was so cheesy though that Domino's called and asked if he'd be a supplier. He did say it wasn't viable build mind you, so I'm not calling him out or anything.

Destruent · March 2018

Aria_GuildDestroyer wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Aria_GuildDestroyer wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

vMoL and the HM were cleared with 25-30K average DPS nearly 2 years ago, when there were few sets, CP was capped to 500 and there weren't so many effects like off-balance. Yes, higher DPS does allow you to skip mechanics, and do things more straight forward, but that doesn't magically allow you to progress the trial. If everyone does 35K as melee and 30K as ranged but prioritize targets right, don't die to avoidable mechanics and stay in the right group at Twins they will finish the trial in about 35-40 minutes, give or take. The vast majority of wipes is due to people messing the mechanics and not picking the right targets, not low raw DPS. When DPS checks are failed, it's usually because people died and couldn't be resurrected in time, not because they stayed alive and haven't pulled enough due to imperfect rotation. Same goes for pretty much every trial and dungeon.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but regardless, the group had a group dps of over 200k, and that's 25k each with mechanics, not 25k on a dummy when nothing is hitting you. For sure, knowledge of mechanics and following through on mechanics is just as great a threat to not completing; but the dps checks are still an additional barrier.

If your DPS in a Raid is lower than on a dummy (not in vAS) your group needs to work on groupsupport....not individual DPS.
The 25k...30k DPS we had in raidgroups when we first cleared vMoL were more like 20k...25k solo back then. And now there are even more possibilities to buff DPS, especially for stamina.
Just an example (from last patch..but still...)
Stam-Templar
solo: ~35k
+ major fracture: ~40k
+ full raidbuff: ~55k (with bugs...probably 60k+ without bugs)

pls stop with that "DPS goes down in raids blablubb"-nonsense

Dude he's talking about Progression guilds - not guilds that have mechanics down to a T and can compensate for poor dps. You're arguing about a circumstance that doesn't really happen in ESO anymore - you don't have low dps guilds clearing MoL, and if you do, it's taking them 3+ hours to do it. If you wanna argue that "it's possible" feel free, cause you're not wrong - it just doesn't matter when your talking to someone with low dps and a non-end-game understanding of the mechanics.

Dude, if someone is saying DPS drops in a raid, then this is just wrong, and there is also something wrong with the group. That's it, nothing else.

TimeWizard · March 2018

When people dont understand mechanics or how to dps while doing them, then yes dps will drop in a trial. I first got into trials as a magdk back a bit before homestead. I parsed 30k on a dummy, and 23-30k on trial bosses. Not because the group was ***, but because I had a hard time doing any mechanic or moving at all while doing my rotation. Once you learn to do this then yes trial parses will be significantly higher than dummy parses. But is does take a bit of learning.

Somber97866 · March 2018

DEATH TO MAGIC! IT'S A CRUSADE! WHO CARES, LET THEM DIE DEVIL MAGIC USERS! NERF NERF NERF NERF MOOOOOOOOOOOORE NERF'S.

LiquidPony · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

You can pull 40k on any class, just need good build and practice your skill.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Before you flame, prove me you are real.
Post your Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Quoting, because being credible matters.

I know on an handful Youtube and have seen (one) on this forum, who can somehow (usually, cheesing) achieve that. I don't recall you.

Title says 35k, this says 40k. Which is it?

35k+ on a magsorc is no problemo even using a heavy attack pet build from last patch. Maybe 40k is possible with no cheese on that that type of build, but it'd be a stretch. 38k-ish is probably a reasonable target for double lightning heavy attack petsorcs.

40k+ is certainly possible for Force Pulse sorcs. Don't know if 40k is a good minimum to pick but it's probably a good goal to have.

And anyway, I wouldn't put too much stock in solo DPS requirements, which should be fluid based on class/build/gear. In-raid or 52mil parses are the real tests. There is no logical reason to compare solo DPS of magsorc to a magblade. And even then, comparing DPS from one build to another even in real-game scenarios isn't really wise. Maybe a magsorc won't parse as high as a magblade, but you have to account for the utility of Conduit (#1 Alkosh proc source), Off-Balance, Concussion, superior cleave damage, and of course in a lot of content your magsorcs with Crushing Shock are your interrupters.

Saint314Louis1985 · March 2018

Console player here. Hitting average of 38-40k on 3mil dummy with non pet sorc. Raid dummy testing 50k-ish. This is after the last patch. It is absolutely doable just takes research and practice.
I am running 23 spell erosion and apprentice mundus so no cheese here.

MakeMeUhSamich · March 2018

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

Console player here. Hitting average of 38-40k on 3mil dummy with non pet sorc. Raid dummy testing 50k-ish. This is after the last patch. It is absolutely doable just takes research and practice.
I am running 23 spell erosion and apprentice mundus so no cheese here.

Nice! Mind sharing your build?

Saint314Louis1985 · March 2018

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

Console player here. Hitting average of 38-40k on 3mil dummy with non pet sorc. Raid dummy testing 50k-ish. This is after the last patch. It is absolutely doable just takes research and practice.
I am running 23 spell erosion and apprentice mundus so no cheese here.

Nice! Mind sharing your build?

5 mechanical acuity 2 llambris 3 moondancer
Frontbar - perfect asylum inferno infused w/ flame enchant
backbar - vma lightning infused w/ spell dmg enchant

Front bar - liquid lightning, force pulse, endless fury, inner light, aegis, meteor
Backbar - blockade, haunting curse, ele drain (or shield in raid), inner light, aegis, ele storm
Rotation is: destro ult, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la, fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x1, la, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar heavy, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x 1, la curse, la, ll, la, blockade repeat

MakeMeUhSamich · March 2018

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

Console player here. Hitting average of 38-40k on 3mil dummy with non pet sorc. Raid dummy testing 50k-ish. This is after the last patch. It is absolutely doable just takes research and practice.
I am running 23 spell erosion and apprentice mundus so no cheese here.

Nice! Mind sharing your build?

5 mechanical acuity 2 llambris 3 moondancer
Frontbar - perfect asylum inferno infused w/ flame enchant
backbar - vma lightning infused w/ spell dmg enchant

Front bar - liquid lightning, force pulse, endless fury, inner light, aegis, meteor
Backbar - blockade, haunting curse, ele drain (or shield in raid), inner light, aegis, ele storm
Rotation is: destro ult, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la, fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x1, la, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar heavy, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x 1, la curse, la, ll, la, blockade repeat

Thank you! And your blue CP, please?

Saint314Louis1985 · March 2018

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

Console player here. Hitting average of 38-40k on 3mil dummy with non pet sorc. Raid dummy testing 50k-ish. This is after the last patch. It is absolutely doable just takes research and practice.
I am running 23 spell erosion and apprentice mundus so no cheese here.

Nice! Mind sharing your build?

5 mechanical acuity 2 llambris 3 moondancer
Frontbar - perfect asylum inferno infused w/ flame enchant
backbar - vma lightning infused w/ spell dmg enchant

Front bar - liquid lightning, force pulse, endless fury, inner light, aegis, meteor
Backbar - blockade, haunting curse, ele drain (or shield in raid), inner light, aegis, ele storm
Rotation is: destro ult, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la, fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x1, la, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar heavy, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x 1, la curse, la, ll, la, blockade repeat

Thank you! And your blue CP, please?

56 elfborn 23 erosion 56 ele expert 44 master 61 thaum

Runefang · March 2018

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

Console player here. Hitting average of 38-40k on 3mil dummy with non pet sorc. Raid dummy testing 50k-ish. This is after the last patch. It is absolutely doable just takes research and practice.
I am running 23 spell erosion and apprentice mundus so no cheese here.

Nice! Mind sharing your build?

5 mechanical acuity 2 llambris 3 moondancer
Frontbar - perfect asylum inferno infused w/ flame enchant
backbar - vma lightning infused w/ spell dmg enchant

Front bar - liquid lightning, force pulse, endless fury, inner light, aegis, meteor
Backbar - blockade, haunting curse, ele drain (or shield in raid), inner light, aegis, ele storm
Rotation is: destro ult, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la, fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x1, la, curse, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar heavy, la fp x2, la, ll, la, blockade, la fp x2, backbar ha, la fp x 1, la curse, la, ll, la, blockade repeat

Thank you! And your blue CP, please?

56 elfborn 23 erosion 56 ele expert 44 master 61 thaum

@Saint314Louis1985 and blue food? Or citrus fillet?