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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811

The Erstwhile Sanctuary was abandoned for a reason - A critque

ShadowHvo
ShadowHvo
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Greetings everyone.

Those of you, who know me, are well aware that I’m a vivid fan of the Dark Brotherhood in Elder Scrolls. I’m such a big fan, that I, in fact, lead my own Dark Brotherhood Roleplay guild on the EU Megaserver, surrounding the Sanctuary of Blacklight.

It is with this background that I’ll like for everyone, to take a look at the newly released Home: Erstwhile Sanctuary. This home is an abandoned Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary beneath the city of Kvatch in Cyrodiil, and least to say, as you can read by the title, the Dark Brotherhood certainly abandoned it with good reason.

Let us take a look at the entrance – which at first is brilliant. The entryway is a tight hallway leading to a small library-like room. This small room in itself is a good first sight, since you can use it for much: A library, preparation chambers, a planning hall or even an armory.

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If we then take a turn, we’re presented with a gorgeous scenery in a wide cavern hall with plentiful of beautiful waterfalls, and of course the trademark stained Dark Brotherhood glass in the far end. This first sight is a promising one that leaves an immediate impression of grandeur and adventure.
I6N8AXi.png

A grand room like this often has no other purpose, than to serve as a pathway for other places. We see this in Cheydinhall, Falkreth and Gold Coast Sanctuaries too. That also makes it difficult to build in, beyond improvements to the scenery itself – It is a place to be seen, not used.

Now unfortunately, this is where our promising start breaks to a halt. For this beautiful area only leads to a single hallway, with several small biomes. But to both sides we have two additional rooms. The first being the most sinful of them all.
gLdubmx.png

“The Trophy” room is, beyond any belief, the worst designed quarter of the entire sanctuary. The creators of this particular player home have decided to throw unmoveable Dark Brotherhood pillars halfway through the ground to create several pedestals, similar to the Night Mothers shrine in the Gold Coast Sanctuary.
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This decision alone is not only harmful to the room itself, but also to the many possible creative outcomes the room could’ve had, had it not been carelessly filled with worthless pillars that serve no purpose. I’ve had people argue that you can put dungeon statues on top, but the problem is: The pillars are more than double the size, making them awfully awkward to look at.
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This room could’ve been a brilliant planning quarter, an awesome bathing area, even a botanic garden for alchemy ingredients. Had it not been for the pillars ruining all purposes of this room, beyond that of a trophy room.

Let us proceed to the “Speaker’s” bedroom, as the description of the home itself gives it. This room is the second proper room to reside within this sanctuary. You can make anything your thoughts can think of in here. The only problem with this room is the forced bookshelves, similar to the room by the entryway. These are just more awkwardly placed.
119cFOV.png

At last, we have the big room which I tend to refer to as the Biomes. This is an area that would fit nearly perfectly for a good display of alchemy, exotic plants and creatures. It is generally speaking a nice hallway with a beautiful view over the caverns beneath Kvatch.
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With a creative room separation, you can make a nice kitchen or suitable sleeping quarters for the assassins of the brotherhood.


Now, with this said. I would like to list the type of rooms we see most often for a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.
- Planning Quarter / Preparation Room
- Shrine to the Night Mother or Sithis
- Armory / All Crafting Station
- Torture Chamber / Prison
- Sleeping Quarters
- Matron / Patron private office/quarter
- Kitchen
- Training Room
- Alchemy Room

Now, after the preview of the Erstwhile Sanctuary, it becomes incredible apparent that the Sanctuary as of whole, does not fill the needs for these quarters. There is no proper room for Sleeping Quarters, Torture Chambers, Kitchens or even a Matrons’ office.

While one naturally, can make the large biomes room into separate ones, that still only leaves the Erstwhile Sanctuary with two ordinary and proper rooms. It is just unfortunate that the bookshelves in both are unmovable, since they really limit the potential purpose of the rooms themselves.

The Dark Brotherhood abandoned Erstwhile Sanctuary, not because of the Speakers’ wall crashing down, but because the Sanctuary itself is not a fitting Sanctuary for any group of people to live and survive in, no less call their home.

The Dark Brotherhood is a family of assassins, a creed who worships an entity only few dare to. Their Sanctuary is not only a hideout, its place of worship, their way of living. It is a family home where one can rest, enjoy a good dinner while preparing alchemical elixirs, sharpening your blade or merely enjoy a good plot or chat with fellow brothers and sisters.

The Erstwhile Sanctuary is a shoddy example of a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, and that is why I hope that the Developers of ESO will reconsider bringing the Erstwhile Sanctuary to the live servers, in this condition.

I suggest the following changes so that the value and purpose of the home itself can increase drasticly.
- Make all bookshelves moveable.
- Remove every pillar from the North-Most Room behind the Stained Glass.
- Add two additional rooms to the large Biome, one to the north, and one to the east.
FH3yp0Z.jpg

With simple, and small changes like these, the Erstwhile Sanctuary could become a proper Sanctuary, one that the Dark Brotherhood could feasibly have lived within for some time, before eventually becoming abandoned. But as it currently stands, there is no reason for the Dark Brotherhood to ever, have utilized a location this bad, for a living.
Nighren - The Shadow Striker
Leader of Bloodlines
-- EU --


Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    Erstwhile Sanctuary has been on PTS for almost a month ... and you're posting this now?

    There's a very slim chance they make any desired changes next week (if it is to debut with the Update on 2/12).

    In no way does that mean the suggestions aren't good.

    The additional rooms might carry an additional price in gold and crowns ... but would add to the ambiance.

    Edited by Taleof2Cities on February 5, 2018 1:39AM
  • ixie
    ixie
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    Erstwhile Sanctuary has been on PTS for almost a month ... and you're posting this now?

    There's a very slim chance they make any desired changes next week (if it is to debut with the Update on 2/12).

    In no way does that mean the suggestions aren't good.

    The additional rooms might carry an additional price in gold and crowns ... but would add to the ambiance.

    I don't think it will be available with the update on the 12th as it wasn't mentioned in the Crown Store Showcase for this month, though I do agree they are unlikely to make any changes unfortunately.

    I like the suggestions in the OP
    PC EU

    Ixie - Breton Nightblade
    Paints-With-Frogs - Argonian Nightblade
    Swee Troll - Crafter Dragonknight
  • ShadowHvo
    ShadowHvo
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    Erstwhile Sanctuary has been on PTS for almost a month ... and you're posting this now?

    There's a very slim chance they make any desired changes next week (if it is to debut with the Update on 2/12).

    In no way does that mean the suggestions aren't good.

    The additional rooms might carry an additional price in gold and crowns ... but would add to the ambiance.

    I do doubt that it will debut with the next weeks update. If my memory serves me right, then the Tropical Island was on the PTS months before its release.

    But yes, I am too late with this thread, and I wish I could've gotten myself to make it sooner. But better late then never, I suppose?
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


    Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • newtinmpls
    newtinmpls
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    Lovely and logical critique. Thank you.
    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • Morgul667
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    I am puzzled as it looks good on paper but Im afraid it would make the cavern look even emptier
  • WakeYourGhost
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    Your use of Commas is infuriating..

    I more or less agree with the theme of your general criticism of the house - But, I also believe that this place gives a great deal of options, both aesthetic and otherwise.

    Honestly, though - I can't remember off the top of my head any Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary that had a proper "prison"

    Still, perhaps this "Sanctuary" was less for the whole of the Dark Brotherhood and more for the Speaker and a few choice Assassins.
    Hey, maybe they even reserved some inn rooms in Kavatch for the members to sleep in. Maybe the Speaker isn't a fan of bunk-mates.

    Either way, still a pretty good chance I'll get this house and use it as a staging ground for my frequent Murder-Sprees.
  • ShadowHvo
    ShadowHvo
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    Your use of Commas is infuriating..

    My apologies.
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


    Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • WakeYourGhost
    WakeYourGhost
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    ShadowHvo wrote: »
    Your use of Commas is infuriating..

    My apologies.

    It was more a joking statement - You're fine.

    Even if they don't add more rooms, do you still think it would be a worthwhile purchase? Like - If they changed the pillars to be moveable?
  • ShadowHvo
    ShadowHvo
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    ShadowHvo wrote: »
    Your use of Commas is infuriating..

    My apologies.

    It was more a joking statement - You're fine.

    Even if they don't add more rooms, do you still think it would be a worthwhile purchase? Like - If they changed the pillars to be moveable?

    Yes, the pillars is my personal pet-peeve. I can easily hide the bookshelves with rocks. But those pillars... Ough, they ruin the north room completely.

    I'll naturally prefer all three additions, but I'll take any, truly.
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


    Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • leothedino
    leothedino
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    Give this man his changes, ZoS! He'll kill us all! Sacraments will be done, lives will be taken! :O
  • Corrinos
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    This is a fantastic critique. I hope ZOS incorporates this feedback. It should be relatively straightforward given that assets probably already exist from the Gold Coast sanctuary.
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 23, 2018 2:37AM
  • necr0o
    necr0o
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    Would purchase it if said changes were made.. otherwise no chance
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Kind of the story of this game, always coming up short from it's potential. I think that's what gets some folks so upset, that "so close, but so far" feeling where you can see the good version right there at the end of your outstretched hand if just a few better decisions were made.

    Every home I've worked in so far has stories like this, where just a few different/better decisions on design would have made a huge difference in usefulness. This is why I've yet to buy any of the huge properties, and this is another one that doesn't look that great unless they make changes similar to your example.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    All the houses they have presented have some issues that some people disagree with. When the first houses were implemented with Homestead, lots of us gave feedback especially considering the claustrophobic feel and the walls that cut off almost all views.

    I do feel you're sort of nitpicking on this one. You're basically asking for more space (more rooms) and having the possibility to remove barriers from the larger, main rooms. Well, that's how it is with pretty much every house so far. We all want more room, and we all want to remove that particularly annoying rockslide, wall of pillars or whatever it is that's blocking our view or progress.

    Judging from the pictures and reviews of this particular house so far, I'd say it does exactly what it's supposed to, if you're into the sort of style that it offers. If you want a cavern with no barriers, the Coldharbour cave and the Craglorn cave would be better options.
    You can't please everyone's personal taste, but I do think the issues you bring forth are sort of minor, especially compared to some of the glaring faults of the earlier houses, that will never get mended.
  • Corrinos
    Corrinos
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    All the houses they have presented have some issues that some people disagree with. When the first houses were implemented with Homestead, lots of us gave feedback especially considering the claustrophobic feel and the walls that cut off almost all views.

    I do feel you're sort of nitpicking on this one. You're basically asking for more space (more rooms) and having the possibility to remove barriers from the larger, main rooms. Well, that's how it is with pretty much every house so far. We all want more room, and we all want to remove that particularly annoying rockslide, wall of pillars or whatever it is that's blocking our view or progress.

    Judging from the pictures and reviews of this particular house so far, I'd say it does exactly what it's supposed to, if you're into the sort of style that it offers. If you want a cavern with no barriers, the Coldharbour cave and the Craglorn cave would be better options.
    You can't please everyone's personal taste, but I do think the issues you bring forth are sort of minor, especially compared to some of the glaring faults of the earlier houses, that will never get mended.

    There is so much wrong here, all I can say is that you've missed the point.
  • ShadowHvo
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    @Carbonised

    As the good @Corrinos points out, you don't quite seem to have catched the point of the critque I provide.

    My critque does not surround itself to a "minor" removal of barrier or additions of room, but for the home to actually have spawned from a sensible Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.

    It is -the- Erstwhile Sanctuary. Not "Vile Lair", "Private Cave Hideout" or "Dark Assassin personal Batcave" but Erstwhile Sanctuary, a former Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.

    Something that in its current state, has never had any rights to be, as it does not fit the criteria and/or the needs the Dark Brotherhood has for a Sanctuary.

    My suggestions, at least from my own point of view, is far from nitpicking. Its an assement of what is currently wrong with the 'Sanctuary' and why most of its rooms (North one especially) is ruined by the addition of unmoveable bookshelves and.... those... pesky... pillars...

    My feedback, at least in my own eyes, provide an incredible simple and easy fix to this issue. Remove the pillars that provide nothing but the ruin of a room, and make the bookshelves into a furniture item so that we, can be creative in utilizing the home for our personal projects.

    The addition of the two rooms in my suggestion? Those two would only increase the value of the Sanctuary, and actually make it appear as a proper place the Dark Brotherhood could formerly have used. But as it stands now, there is no sensible reason as to why Erstwhile Sanctuary ever would've been a Sanctuary to begin with, because it clearly cannot house more than a single individual.

    While yes, its a player home for one, but then it shouldn't be a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, but some random Assassin hideout instead.
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


    Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • Grimm13
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    I do agree that the pillars in the "Trophy Room" are annoying and limits the functional choices. The pillars should be removable, they don't want to give out that many with the purchase then they should cut down the number of them and still make the ones left as removable. maybe remove the bottom tier wall to increase the space around the pool to also balance the area and the fact that less pillars could be placed.

    As far as the additional rooms to make sense of it as a facility. I think the story that it was the bedroom that fell in would be better that it was those missing room aspects that fell. If it had just been a bedroom that could have been worked around by the brotherhood. You lose the rooms you mentioned then that is a good reason to abandon the place.

    I also think that it's missing a sound and visual effect that should be present. A random rumble and dust shifting down to give the feeling that the place might still be a little unstable. Occupy at your own risk.

    The CS also needs to offer rock materials that match the coloration of the stones here when placed and have them available in the large & huge sizes.

    https://sparkforautism.org/

    Season of DraggingOn
    It's your choice on how you vote with your $

    PC-NA
  • f047ys3v3n
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    I thought the pillars in the "trophy room" were pretty *** as well. They really limit not what you can do with one of the most interesting rooms in the place but also even how you display your trophies. (Of course, after next patch you also get 6 less trophies so I guess maybe you put your storage containers up on the pedistools lol.) The rest of the place I liked with or without the OP's suggestions. Since it is crowns only it ultimately doesn't matter to me though.
    I am mostly pleased with the current state of ESO. Please do continue to ban cheaters though and you guys have to find out who is duping gold and how because the economy is currently non-functional.
  • Corrinos
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno

    I don't know if this thread fits into the existing housing feedback thread, but is it possible to incorporate this thinking somewhere? I'd hate to have this get lost in the noise.

    Thank you!
  • Kiyakotari
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    Yeah, I would probably buy it, except those pillars basically make that one room unusable. The bookcases, I can live with. The inaccessible lake area, I can live with. But those pillars, while cool to look at (and maybe something that would suit the "furnished" version as a movable set of items), are just way too restricting. So that's another sale lost, since I assume they won't be making any changes.
  • Baracuta
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    Complete and utter heresy: The Dark Brotherhood will be purged from Tamriel, and all ye scum who so worship the void will be swiftly sent to it :3

    That being said, your ideas are good for the house. Unfortunately, it's going to be one of those things ZOS won't care enough to fix.
    Outfit Slots are outrageously expensive. No, thank you.
  • Corrinos
    Corrinos
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    Kiyakotari wrote: »
    Yeah, I would probably buy it, except those pillars basically make that one room unusable. The bookcases, I can live with. The inaccessible lake area, I can live with. But those pillars, while cool to look at (and maybe something that would suit the "furnished" version as a movable set of items), are just way too restricting. So that's another sale lost, since I assume they won't be making any changes.

    Agreed. At the very least, the removal of the shelves and pillars should be trivial. I just hope there has been some receptivity to the additional space issue, too.
  • Corrinos
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    Any updates on whether or not we've been heard or when the sanctuary will be available for purchase?
  • ShadowHvo
    ShadowHvo
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    Unfortunately not, at least not to my knowledge.

    The live version of the home, while still not buyable, still has the awful pillars ruining the north room.
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


    Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • MacCait
    MacCait
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    Good critique. I agree on those points and thought simular things when I reviewed it earlier today
  • Corrinos
    Corrinos
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno - With the release in just a few days, have these critiques at least been heard?
  • ShadowHvo
    ShadowHvo
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    We can only hope, my friend.
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


    Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
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