Tanks Are The Only Role That Can’t Reliably/Consistently Do Their Job… And That Needs To Be Fixed.

Woefulmonkey · March 2018

NOTE: I am not calling for nerfs on other classes or trying to debate the value of DPS VS Healer VS Tank. My argument here is that Tanks are the only role that can have their fundamental role defining abilities interfered with by other players. I am not saying other players do this on purpose just that it can and often does happen.

There are 3 basic roles in ESO, DPS, Healer, and Tank.

DPS are supposed to do damage… they can always do damage… they don’t get blocked from doing damage because some other player is also doing damage.

Healer are supposed to ‘heal’…. They can always heal… they don’t stop being able to heal because some other player in a different role has a healing ability and uses it.

What is a ‘Tank’ supposed to do?.... They are supposed to keep mob focus and take the brunt of the attacks so other classes can do their jobs….

However, a Tank can’t always keep focus….

If another non-tank player is using a Frost staff and has select specific setting for their destruction staff abilities they can take focus off the Tank.

If another player gets the ‘Inner Fire’ ability they can also ‘acquire’ focus… but when 2 or more people are trying to acquire focus on the same target, it can become immune.

So, unlike the other roles, if multiple players are also using ‘Taunt’ abilities they stop being able to ‘Taunt’.

Ok… So what is a solution to this issue?

1.) If multiple players are ‘Taunting’ at the same time… don’t make the target immune… just make it so only 1 player can have focus at a time and they can’t loose it until the effect wares off. Any ‘new’ taunt attempts should ‘Fail’ including attempt to ‘re-new’ focus from the current Tank who has focus.
2.) Make an obvious 'Graphic' that players see when the 'Acquire' focus and when they 'Fail To Acquire' focus.

The second one is to ensure players know when they are 'accidently' acquiring focus and to let the Tank know when it his consistently being blocked from acquiring focus.

SquareSausage · March 2018

I don't see a problem really.

If someone in a pug is using a frost staff and taunting by mistake then either tell them what they are doing or vote kick. If they are griefing then again vote kick.

Some fights require boss swapping so all chars need to be able to acquire the taunt of the boss if need be.

Defilted · March 2018

Only the players can fix this issue. All the roles are defined correctly. They are the same 3 rolls we have had in games like this since D&D, then MMO's later. Players must know what role they want to perform and then research how to achieve this. ZOS cannot do this for you.

More than enough information out there.

Woefulmonkey · March 2018

@SquareSausage

I am not saying other classes 'can't have/use taunts.

I am saying players should be better notified when the taunt or fail to taunt and that targets should not become immune because multiple players are over taunting.

In 'Random' dungeons people most players don't even understand how Taunt works or that they are doing something at prevents the "Tank' form doing their job.

The idea that the 'Tank' should just have to give a preamble in every group explaining how to 'Not Interfere' with their ability is not a 'Solution' it is a 'Work Around'.

If you are a DPS how would you feel if every time you played you had to make a speech to your group member explaining that if they do damage at the same time you do damage your damage gets 'Blocked'.

Woefulmonkey · March 2018

@Defilted

OK... So how would you feel if your main healer could not heal because a Knight Blade was casting a siphon ability to heal themselves?

Would that be acceptable and seen as just something you should 'deal' with for the healer role?

Royaji · March 2018

And what if we assume for a quick moment that guys at ZOS are not absolutely stupid and there is a reason why taunt immunity is in the game?

Immunity prevents two people from kiting melee-oriented bosses back and forth in a large room. If the boss is taunted just before he reaches the first player he will just run back to the second one. After that the first player does the same trick. So instead of attacking boss just runs around... Yep, very engaging and fun mechanics.

The_Lex · March 2018

I pug tanked DS1 last night. Sure enough, the healer - yep, the Templar healer - was heavy attacking with a frost staff. I tried to tell him about ice staff taunting but he refused to stop. So I just let the boss chase him around.

Defilted · March 2018

As a healer I am completely fine with a player healing themselves. Gives me more chance to buff/debuff and deal damage to the boss/Mob.

In a PUG you are going to find different level of players and you are going to have to do more or less. DPS not healing themselves to some degree is normally a sign of a inexperienced DPS player.

In a good group a healer in this game is going to focus on buff/debuff and healing the tank. In some instances there will be time that the entire groups needs big heals, but this is not the norm from fight to fight.

I do not see how a DPS casting one ability would stop me from healing.

Woefulmonkey · March 2018

@Royaji

Ok... so I never attacked ESO or said they were stupid or claimed players were stupid or that their should not be a way to 'Over Taunt'.

I just said players should be better notified when the 'Taunt or Fail To Taunt' and that simply have 2 players Taunt the same target should not make it immune.

There are ways to detect 'Ping Pong' taunting that require that making it so Tanks have to explain 'how to play with a tank' to ever group they encounter.

No... I don't like the idea of 'Ping Pong' taunts...

But you know what I also don't like... Stupid AOE kiting mobs in a big circle to bypass any dungeon mechanics.

That still exists... so are you saying that is what ESO intended?

Woefulmonkey · March 2018

@Defilted

Read what I wrote... it not that long.

I am not saying players should not be able to heal themselves.

I am saying how would you as a healer feel if your 'Heals We Being Blocked' because someone was healing themselves.

That is what is happening to tanks.

Gnortranermara · March 2018

We can read your text just fine without the boldface. That doesn't make your idea more valid. This is not a problem with the game, nor is it a widespread pervasive problem with the majority of the player base. It's a tiny problem with a small handful of players, who simply need to be educated one time. One and done. Simple. And if you can't communicate with other players on a social MMO, that's more of a personal problem than anything else. The current game design is working perfectly fine and can't be changed (with all of the consequences such changes bring) simply so you don't have to communicate with your pugs.

Royaji · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

@Royaji

Ok... so I never attacked ESO or said they were stupid or claimed players were stupid or that their should not be a way to 'Over Taunt'.

I just said players should be better notified when the 'Taunt or Fail To Taunt' and that simply have 2 players Taunt the same target should not make it immune.

There are ways to detect 'Ping Pong' taunting that require that making it so Tanks have to explain 'how to play with a tank' to ever group they encounter.

No... I don't like the idea of 'Ping Pong' taunts...

But you know what I also don't like... Stupid AOE kiting mobs in a big circle to bypass any dungeon mechanics.

That still exists... so are you saying that is what ESO intended?

Taunt immunity is not an issue. Stupid people are. Someone prevents you from taunting? Don't taunt. There is a very easy rule to follow as a tank: "you pull it, you tank it".

This DD loves his ice staff and keeps on heavy attacking? You can start by explaining politely how it works. He doesn't listen? Not your problem, let the boss maul him to death. It's that simple.

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Taunt immunity is there to prevent abuse of mechanics where multiple players could bounce a boss back and forth and never take damage

AcadianPaladin · March 2018

I see quite a bit of this with my tank doing WBs - typically not grouped, just a handful of folks doing the same thing at the same time. I've had quite a few squishies pull the boss from me and commit suicide by frost staff. I've also had a few dps pull the boss from me using puncture because they didn't know it was a taunt (!). Cross taunting doesn't seem to be a problem with two tanks as we understand how it works - if one tank has aggro, don't pull it from them - unless their health goes below half - then I pull the boss and take the heat so the other tank can recover.

While I don't want tanks to have the ability to ping pong bosses between them, I wouldn't mind minor rework of taunt to help clarify/prevent ignorant taunting. Not sure what the solution is but I do agree that there is a bit of a problem - especially with players trying to work together for one event without being grouped.

WrathOfInnos · March 2018

As a DPS, a tank can prevent me from doing my job by moving enemies out of AoEs constantly.

As a healer, a DPS can prevent me from doing my job by moving behind me, or more than 28m away on any direction so they can spam snipe from a "safe place".

kojou · March 2018

This post wasn't at all what I expected...

Nobody should use Ice staves unless it works for a niche PvP build. That's just a L2P issue.

Using Inner Fire for DPS is a rookie mistake. Anybody that makes it will learn not to on their first dungeon.

Moving along...

crobarXIII · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

@Defilted

OK... So how would you feel if your main healer could not heal because a Knight Blade was casting a siphon ability to heal themselves?

Would that be acceptable and seen as just something you should 'deal' with for the healer role?

Are you being serious? A magblade's main spammable has a hot. elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Strife

Sixty5 · March 2018

If someone else is taunting a boss, it's the fault of the other person not doing their job correctly

If a Healer doesn't do their job correctly then people die.

If the Tank doesn't do their job then group DPS will drop, and people will probably die

If the DPS don't do their job then nothing dies.

A trashcan can ruin a run no matter what role you are playing.

malicia · March 2018

I have no problem with taunting as is. In vMoL the off-tank needs to be able to steal taunt when the main tank is cursed. In vDSA the healer or a DD needs to steal taunt to grab the final boss while the tank draws the mini bosses away. Taunt switching is a valid strategy that adds value to the game. Makes it more fun and more interesting.

Nightfall12 · March 2018

Here I was thinking that YES Finally someone agrees, that the random Insta-Kill mechanics in vet dungeons bypass the tank role!

but no this is an anti ice staff thread

Slick_007 · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

@Defilted

OK... So how would you feel if your main healer could not heal because a Knight Blade was casting a siphon ability to heal themselves?

Would that be acceptable and seen as just something you should 'deal' with for the healer role?

lol. what is wrong with you? the 'main healer' can still heal regardless of other people healing. methinks your issue in groups may not be other people.

Gulkrim-mur · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

NOTE: I am not calling for nerfs on other classes or trying to debate the value of DPS VS Healer VS Tank. My argument here is that Tanks are the only role that can have their fundamental role defining abilities interfered with by other players. I am not saying other players do this on purpose just that it can and often does happen.

There are 3 basic roles in ESO, DPS, Healer, and Tank.

DPS are supposed to do damage… they can always do damage… they don’t get blocked from doing damage because some other player is also doing damage.

Healer are supposed to ‘heal’…. They can always heal… they don’t stop being able to heal because some other player in a different role has a healing ability and uses it.

What is a ‘Tank’ supposed to do?.... They are supposed to keep mob focus and take the brunt of the attacks so other classes can do their jobs….

However, a Tank can’t always keep focus….

If another non-tank player is using a Frost staff and has select specific setting for their destruction staff abilities they can take focus off the Tank.

If another player gets the ‘Inner Fire’ ability they can also ‘acquire’ focus… but when 2 or more people are trying to acquire focus on the same target, it can become immune.

So, unlike the other roles, if multiple players are also using ‘Taunt’ abilities they stop being able to ‘Taunt’.

Ok… So what is a solution to this issue?

1.) If multiple players are ‘Taunting’ at the same time… don’t make the target immune… just make it so only 1 player can have focus at a time and they can’t loose it until the effect wares off. Any ‘new’ taunt attempts should ‘Fail’ including attempt to ‘re-new’ focus from the current Tank who has focus.
2.) Make an obvious 'Graphic' that players see when the 'Acquire' focus and when they 'Fail To Acquire' focus.

The second one is to ensure players know when they are 'accidently' acquiring focus and to let the Tank know when it his consistently being blocked from acquiring focus.

I read 1st paragraph stop running with plebs. If anyone besides a tank is using agro skills you group has a problem. Solutions get a good team

Arkray · March 2018

While you are at it add a self root to the taunt skills so the tanks can't move while they have the attention of the boss, that way maybe they stop moving bosses outside the destro ultimate range everytime I use it

Now seriously, anyone can have their role interfered by other players, if a tank keeps moving the boss outside of the DD's ground dots they lose half of their dps the same way that you lose the attention of a boss half of the time if other people taunts it, in fact if a DD or a Healer is taunting the boss they are probably screwing up the other DD too because they are moving it. And healers? If people were doing things perfectly, they would heal everything with healing springs or combat prayer alone and they wouldn't even need much recovery, in reallity they have to have some emergency heals and a lot of recovery because people is going to make them cast buffs and heals twice or thrice.

If you have issues with any member of your group just communicate with them and let them now, some may not know that they were doing something odd, if they don't listen and it's such a big deal you can always kick them or leave.

Asardes · March 2018

I have a simpler solution: if a 2nd player taunts an already taunted enemies within 10s of the taunt by the initial player, that enemy comes after them with enrage damage bonus +200% and one-shots them; humanoid bosses will also teabag the corpse for 5s and call them derogatory terms such as "scrub, noob" etc. That should teach the frost staff magicka DDs and sword & board stamina ones spamming ransack a thing or two

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

NOTE: I am not calling for nerfs on other classes or trying to debate the value of DPS VS Healer VS Tank. My argument here is that Tanks are the only role that can have their fundamental role defining abilities interfered with by other players. I am not saying other players do this on purpose just that it can and often does happen.

There are 3 basic roles in ESO, DPS, Healer, and Tank.

DPS are supposed to do damage… they can always do damage… they don’t get blocked from doing damage because some other player is also doing damage.

Healer are supposed to ‘heal’…. They can always heal… they don’t stop being able to heal because some other player in a different role has a healing ability and uses it.

What is a ‘Tank’ supposed to do?.... They are supposed to keep mob focus and take the brunt of the attacks so other classes can do their jobs….

However, a Tank can’t always keep focus….

If another non-tank player is using a Frost staff and has select specific setting for their destruction staff abilities they can take focus off the Tank.

If another player gets the ‘Inner Fire’ ability they can also ‘acquire’ focus… but when 2 or more people are trying to acquire focus on the same target, it can become immune.

So, unlike the other roles, if multiple players are also using ‘Taunt’ abilities they stop being able to ‘Taunt’.

Ok… So what is a solution to this issue?

1.) If multiple players are ‘Taunting’ at the same time… don’t make the target immune… just make it so only 1 player can have focus at a time and they can’t loose it until the effect wares off. Any ‘new’ taunt attempts should ‘Fail’ including attempt to ‘re-new’ focus from the current Tank who has focus.
2.) Make an obvious 'Graphic' that players see when the 'Acquire' focus and when they 'Fail To Acquire' focus.

The second one is to ensure players know when they are 'accidently' acquiring focus and to let the Tank know when it his consistently being blocked from acquiring focus.

Your suggested fix would cause serious issues for tanks in vmol and vhof were they have to pass taunt from time to time. I understand your frustration but it quite literally only affects pugs and if you see thus going on ask them to stop. Otherwise two boss fights would become impossible to complete.

VaranisArano · March 2018

Its a pretty easy fix. When you DPS or healer steals your aggro with a taunt, you ask them "Hey did you know that using Puncture/ice staff heavy attack with Trifocus/charge with the Tormentor set/Inner Fire has a taunt? Please stop."

Most DPS and Healers don't want boss aggro. They'll stop, because most times it was an accident or they didn't know that something was a taunt.

If they don't stop, I fall back on a simple phrase. "You taunt it? You tank it.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its a pretty easy fix. When you DPS or healer steals your aggro with a taunt, you ask them "Hey did you know that using Puncture/ice staff heavy attack with Trifocus/charge with the Tormentor set/Inner Fire has a taunt? Please stop."

Most DPS and Healers don't want boss aggro. They'll stop, because most times it was an accident or they didn't know that something was a taunt.

If they don't stop, I fall back on a simple phrase. "You taunt it? You tank it.

^^^^^^This ^^^^^^

Greydir · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

...
DPS are supposed to do damage… they can always do damage… they don’t get blocked from doing damage because some other player is also doing damage.

Healer are supposed to ‘heal’…. They can always heal… they don’t stop being able to heal because some other player in a different role has a healing ability and uses it.

What is a ‘Tank’ supposed to do?.... They are supposed to keep mob focus and take the brunt of the attacks so other classes can do their jobs….

However, a Tank can’t always keep focus….

If another non-tank player is using a Frost staff and has select specific setting for their destruction staff abilities they can take focus off the Tank.

If another player gets the ‘Inner Fire’ ability they can also ‘acquire’ focus… but when 2 or more people are trying to acquire focus on the same target, it can become immune.

So, unlike the other roles, if multiple players are also using ‘Taunt’ abilities they stop being able to ‘Taunt’.

Ok… So what is a solution to this issue?

1.) If multiple players are ‘Taunting’ at the same time… don’t make the target immune… just make it so only 1 player can have focus at a time and they can’t loose it until the effect wares off. Any ‘new’ taunt attempts should ‘Fail’ including attempt to ‘re-new’ focus from the current Tank who has focus.
2.) Make an obvious 'Graphic' that players see when the 'Acquire' focus and when they 'Fail To Acquire' focus.

The second one is to ensure players know when they are 'accidently' acquiring focus and to let the Tank know when it his consistently being blocked from acquiring focus.

There are a few very distinct problematic things, that you seem to overlook:
1. Other Players can interfere with healers since Healing Springs (the most improtant skill for a healer in regards to group heal in trials) can only hit 6 players at a time. This leads to deaths if communication errors occure and one healing spring contains 7 players and the other 5. Tanks can also interfere with healers since some enemys cast serious healing debuffs on players, which will disable a healers option to heal this player if placed wrong.
2. In some Trials it is vitaly important to have the ability to switch aggro. VHoF 4th Boss is impossible to play if tanks can not switch aggro. So making taunt attempts fail is not an option in line with current game mechanics.
3. The best solution is a good communication with your teammates. If mishaps occur inform them of the reasons. If they do not want to listen, than leave.

aeowulf · March 2018

Can't force people to play the way you want them, but you're a tank - drop group, finder queue is instant

Defilted · March 2018

Woefulmonkey wrote: »

@Defilted

Read what I wrote... it not that long.

I am not saying players should not be able to heal themselves.

I am saying how would you as a healer feel if your 'Heals We Being Blocked' because someone was healing themselves.

That is what is happening to tanks.

I read your comments. Your heals cannot be blocked. Is it possible you are healing a target that already healed themselves? Yes. I still do not understand why this is an issue. Happens a few times and move on to healing others or doing damage because your heals in the particular fight are not needed.

For example there is a 5 price bonus that wants you to throw heals at full health players to proc the set. So it really depends on you and your choice of setup.

If I am a healer and the group is so self sufficient I do not need to primary heal, this is a good thing in my book.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

All I can say is this a really bad suggestion. I can only assume you've never tanked vmol or vhof