Why does Radiant Destruction carry such a high cost?

Solariken · March 2018

Radiant Destruction has a base cost of 4590 magicka. Here are the other two magicka executes in the game:

Mage's Fury: 2430 magicka
Impale: 1890 magicka

Radiant is a great skill, but it has major risks attached that the others do not: namely limited mobility and interrupt opportunity.

I think Impale has an appropriate cost since it is the most difficult to land and often has to be spammed to be effective. Mage's Fury's cost is also fine, but that thing is jam-packed with utility and is by far the easiest to use and the most dangerous in PvP (not to mention the chance to proc an additional free execute lol).

It's also worth noting that, in general, it's better game design when offensive skills carry a lower cost than defensive skills. This is obviously not the case with regard to Radiant; it has a cost that is totally out of whack and should be reduced to be more on par with its magicka counterparts. ~2900 magicka would be much more appropriate IMO.

Would anyone like to take a crack at how this cost disparity is justified?

danno8 · March 2018

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

Sixty5 · March 2018

because Radient Destruction has a duration and ticks multiple times, along with having a higher base damage.

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Each tick of radiant destruction for my templar does about the same damage (20-30k) as a single impale on my nightblade.

It also has a greater execute range, starting at 50% instead of the 25% on impale or mages fury.

Solariken · March 2018

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

WrathOfInnos · March 2018

Yes, but I would prefer if it had about half the cost, half the ticks, half the duration, just because I hate being locked into a long channel animation.

danno8 · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Well I do like that it can't be dodged, so in that way I think it has it's own utility. But I would like it to be reduced to 2 seconds, with a 33% reduction to cost because I find working other stuff in during the execute phase to be inefficient.

I think in PvE Impale is a better execute since you can LA weave.

I think in PvP RD is a better execute since it can't be dodged.

I think Mages Fury is better than either of them.

Solariken · March 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, but I would prefer if it had about half the cost, half the ticks, half the duration, just because I hate being locked into a long channel animation.

I would be on board with this.

In PvP if you don't get the kill on first tick there is a very big chance that the target will rubber band their health back above threshold. The second half of the channel is almost always wasted. This change would be a boon for PvP and basically no change for PvE.

Sixty5 · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Considerig that the skill is the strongest and potentially most efficient excute in the game when used optimaly, yes, I do.

Solariken · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Considerig that the skill is the strongest and potentially most efficient excute in the game when used optimaly, yes, I do.

I don't have the parses to prove it, but I'm pretty certain Fury is stronger and more efficient than RD when you factor in weaves and passive utility.

Mazbt · March 2018

I'm in favour of a radiant destruction cost reduction. sustain on a magplar dps isn't that amazing especially if you elect to go dual swords instead of lightning.

SaintSubwayy · March 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

3s in which you cannot do anything, cause you're channeling the damm skill, only dots are running and thats it.

Furthermore the Extradmg is bound to your current magicka...which is kinda bad design, since the skill is so dammn expensive. Maybe tie it to your max Magicka and max Spelldmg. (from a PVE Perspective ofc)
Make it breakable by dodgeroll, and blockable to make it fair in PVP and the problem should be solved

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Considerig that the skill is the strongest and potentially most efficient excute in the game when used optimaly, yes, I do.

I don't have the parses to prove it, but I'm pretty certain Fury is stronger and more efficient than RD when you factor in weaves and passive utility.

fury is really only better if there's something to hit with the splash damage, the whole strength of that ability is that it's essentially an aoe execute.

Radiant's niche is that it begins execute range at 50%, rather than 25% like others. Also, once you get down below 25%, radiant will do more damage per point of magicka (and more damage per second, unless you're an animation cancelling god) than the other ranged magicka executes. The only exception is using endless fury against enemies that are actually dying, but you'll never get that magicka return on boss fights.

Drdeath20 · March 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Considerig that the skill is the strongest and potentially most efficient excute in the game when used optimaly, yes, I do.

I don't have the parses to prove it, but I'm pretty certain Fury is stronger and more efficient than RD when you factor in weaves and passive utility.

fury is really only better if there's something to hit with the splash damage, the whole strength of that ability is that it's essentially an aoe execute.

Radiant's niche is that it begins execute range at 50%, rather than 25% like others. Also, once you get down below 25%, radiant will do more damage per point of magicka (and more damage per second, unless you're an animation cancelling god) than the other ranged magicka executes. The only exception is using endless fury against enemies that are actually dying, but you'll never get that magicka return on boss fights.

But its a dps net loss until less than 25% health and a channel

danno8 · March 2018

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

3s in which you cannot do anything, cause you're channeling the damm skill, only dots are running and thats it.

Furthermore the Extradmg is bound to your current magicka...which is kinda bad design, since the skill is so dammn expensive. Maybe tie it to your max Magicka and max Spelldmg. (from a PVE Perspective ofc)
Make it breakable by dodgeroll, and blockable to make it fair in PVP and the problem should be solved

Oh you don't have to tell me. I was only pointing out that the 4500 cost is clearly because it is 3s worth of damage, other variables notwithstanding.

Also, a big "no" on making it dodge-able. First off, it's a channel, so it would be disobeying the rules of the game. Secondly it was dodgeable for a while due to a bug, and every Templar in the game removed it from their skill bar because of how unusable it became.

Princess_Ciri · March 2018

the higher the fun the higher the cost. and jesus beaming is very, very fun.

Ankael07 · March 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

plus the high execute threshold ( 50% )

danno8 · March 2018

Ankael07 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

plus the high execute threshold ( 50% )

One thing people don't realize though is that 50% is when the scaling begins.

At 49% health you might get 5% more damage, and at the 25% health target, where all other executes get 300% damage, RD is only getting half of that, around 150%.

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Solariken · March 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

It would more be interesting if they changed the cost to a channel as well. Each tick (4 total) would cost you 1147 magicka. This way the caster wouldn't be so brutally punished for cancelling early (which you are so often forced to do). What say ye @ZOS_Wrobel?

Seraphayel · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Absolutely.

danno8 wrote: »

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Really? Feels like everybody and their grannies are using Jesus Beam at any given % (yes I know those aren't the best players but still...).

Neoauspex · March 2018

Purifying Light is your execute now.

danno8 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Really? Feels like everybody and their grannies are using Jesus Beam at any given % (yes I know those aren't the best players but still...).

Because they are bad, yes. Also sometimes it is your only ranged option, as ineffective as it can be at >50% health.

It is also a good way to agro PvP players since they will think your are a newb and target you appropriately. Better than any taunt in the game.

Minno · March 2018

There's only room for one ability at 3800-4000 cost on my bar; BoL. Everything else is useless at that cost level.

Solariken · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Absolutely.

danno8 wrote: »

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Really? Feels like everybody and their grannies are using Jesus Beam at any given % (yes I know those aren't the best players but still...).

There are 3 main reasons for that @Seraphayel, none of which mean the Templar is a potato:

1- the target was able to yo-yo his HP back above threshold before or during the cast (extremely common)

2- the target is being focused/Xv1'd and the Templar has his DOTs on the target and he is pre-executing while allies finish the job (don't be mad, Mage's Fury does this too)

3- the Templar got ***-blocked by ESO's less-than-stellar targeting system and the beam hits some full-HP bystander instead of the nearby intended execute target.

danno8 · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So you guys think the duration is enough to justify the cost, even though it has big, unique risks associated with use?

Absolutely.

danno8 wrote: »

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Really? Feels like everybody and their grannies are using Jesus Beam at any given % (yes I know those aren't the best players but still...).

3- the Templar got ***-blocked by ESO's less-than-stellar targeting system and the beam hits some full-HP bystander instead of the nearby intended execute target.

Every day, man. See a guy who has a sliver of health left, target them, fire, and it hits a guy nearly 45 degrees to the left or right.

Lynx7386 · March 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

plus the high execute threshold ( 50% )

One thing people don't realize though is that 50% is when the scaling begins.

At 49% health you might get 5% more damage, and at the 25% health target, where all other executes get 300% damage, RD is only getting half of that, around 150%.

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Radiant goes up to 330% extra at 1%. At 25% health its 165% additional damage, but it also has higher base damage than impale or mages fury.

danno8 · March 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

plus the high execute threshold ( 50% )

One thing people don't realize though is that 50% is when the scaling begins.

At 49% health you might get 5% more damage, and at the 25% health target, where all other executes get 300% damage, RD is only getting half of that, around 150%.

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Radiant goes up to 330% extra at 1%. At 25% health its 165% additional damage, but it also has higher base damage than impale or mages fury.

Yes you are right about the 330%.

But RD doesn't have a higher base value. For example, on my Templar right now:

Magicka = 38366
SD = 2627
RD = 16036 (ticks four times per cast at 0, 1, 2, 3 second marks) so it is 4009 per second

On my NB:

Magicka = 38911
SD = 2095
Impale = 4113

Both characters CP's are nearly identical. Impale has a higher value even though my NB's SD is nearly 600 less than my Templar.

So while it is true that RD will get a higher final amount from around 5% health downward, Impale will have a higher damage from 25% to 5% (not taking into account LA weaving either).

Solariken · March 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

plus the high execute threshold ( 50% )

One thing people don't realize though is that 50% is when the scaling begins.

At 49% health you might get 5% more damage, and at the 25% health target, where all other executes get 300% damage, RD is only getting half of that, around 150%.

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Radiant goes up to 330% extra at 1%. At 25% health its 165% additional damage, but it also has higher base damage than impale or mages fury.

Yes you are right about the 330%.

But RD doesn't have a higher base value. For example, on my Templar right now:

Magicka = 38366
SD = 2627
RD = 16036 (ticks four times per cast at 0, 1, 2, 3 second marks) so it is 4009 per second

On my NB:

Magicka = 38911
SD = 2095
Impale = 4113

Both characters CP's are nearly identical. Impale has a higher value even though my NB's SD is nearly 600 less than my Templar.

So while it is true that RD will get a higher final amount from around 5% health downward, Impale will have a higher damage from 25% to 5% (not taking into account LA weaving either).

Yeah maybe RD used to be > Impale but one of the recent patches brought a whopping 21% nerf to the RD base damage. It's been neutered, a cost reduction should have come with it.

Joy_Division · March 2018

I've long since dropped this from my bar and if other templars were mindful about efficiency, they have too.

People who think this ability is still powerful or that there are magplars "spamming" this all over cyrodiil either haven't been paying attention or maybe just came back to ESO after a loooooong break.

I don't even use it on my PvE healer. It's only good it 2 stages of vMA.

danno8 · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Duration? That 4500 magicka covers 3s of execute. So it is only 1500 per second.

plus the high execute threshold ( 50% )

One thing people don't realize though is that 50% is when the scaling begins.

At 49% health you might get 5% more damage, and at the 25% health target, where all other executes get 300% damage, RD is only getting half of that, around 150%.

RD only gets the full 300% damage at 1% health. This is why so many people don't use RD until the targets health is less than 10-15%. The scaling starting at 50% is just not as great as some people make it out to be.

Radiant goes up to 330% extra at 1%. At 25% health its 165% additional damage, but it also has higher base damage than impale or mages fury.

Yes you are right about the 330%.

But RD doesn't have a higher base value. For example, on my Templar right now:

Magicka = 38366
SD = 2627
RD = 16036 (ticks four times per cast at 0, 1, 2, 3 second marks) so it is 4009 per second

On my NB:

Magicka = 38911
SD = 2095
Impale = 4113

Both characters CP's are nearly identical. Impale has a higher value even though my NB's SD is nearly 600 less than my Templar.

So while it is true that RD will get a higher final amount from around 5% health downward, Impale will have a higher damage from 25% to 5% (not taking into account LA weaving either).

Yeah maybe RD used to be > Impale but one of the recent patches brought a whopping 21% nerf to the RD base damage. It's been neutered, a cost reduction should have come with it.

Yup, it has been nerfed 4 times now I think?

At first it was OP, no question. They nerfed the scaling once and it was still too strong. Then they nerfed the scaling again and made it match the same scaling as Reverse Slice. Then they nerfed the extra 40% based on magicka remaining down to 20%. Then they nerfed the base damage like you say down by 21%.

I find I play my Templar less and less now. Hard to use, hard to combo, clunky, slow. I took my Stam Sorc through vMSA for the first time yesterday and man, what a blast. I died a few times but he was so maneuverable with quick burst and responsive skills that didn't get me killed.

Only let down was the Ice Staff at the end, lol.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I've long since dropped this from my bar and if other templars were mindful about efficiency, they have too.

People who think this ability is still powerful or that there are magplars "spamming" this all over cyrodiil either haven't been paying attention or maybe just came back to ESO after a loooooong break.

I don't even use it on my PvE healer. It's only good it 2 stages of vMA.

Eh, seems fine to me honestly. Good for PvE damage beyond a certain point. Decent (But a little awkward because of the cost to usage) in PvP, generally being used for maybe 1/2 tick smites. It does still get rather infuriatingly spammed by 30k health low base damage healbots along with backlash and total dark.