Many progression guilds advertise they need DPS "> 35K". Good bye sorcs?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you want to run in a raid group that pushes trial scores, you are going to have high DPS requirements. Word to the wise, dont get tied to one character (big reason a lot of us are always screaming about account wide achievements). Do you think all the guys in MC mained mNBs before they no deathed VAS+2? Of course not. DPS at that level figure out what is best each patch and play it until it gets changed. Perfect balance is an illusion in an MMO. It's an impossible standard that we as a community attempt to force on the devs, but one or two classes will always emerge as meta, especially on something as objective as a DPS meter. Admittedly, sometimes balance is better than others.

This patch, for range, it is magic nightblade. Magic sorc is perfectly viable for the vast majority of content, even when going for a leaderboard spot, and you can certainly still hit 40k on a dummy with a sorc. I will even argue that in "average" hands, sorc is going to win most DPS races, but if both players are highly skilled, mageblade is always going to win. The same could have been said about magic sorc a year ago, and magic DK a year before that. We have even seen the templar DPS meta. Like it or not, it's the age of the nightblade. If you want to play stamina, you have more options available to you, but those spots are generally harder to secure in a raid. Even though stamina rotations are generally much easier, they require a much higher level of raid awareness to play effectively.

I see three possible solutions to your problem:

1. L2P, hate to start there, but the 35k requirement you speak of is perfectly doable on a magic Sorc in Dragon Bones.
2. Except your classes fate. Maybe sorc isnt the class you should be playing this patch. Admittedly, if you cant break 35k on a sorc, I doubt you will do it on mNB as its a significantly (we are talking night and day) harder rotation. This patch is the first time I can remember where my mNB DPS has pulled ahead of mSorc DPS on the dummy for me.
3. Adjust your expectations of the groups you want to run with. Plenty of raid groups dont demand 35k.

Perfectly doable: sure. The discriminating factor is: how many in the overall playerbase skill (a Gaussian of all players skill) can do that, vs other classes? If it's 10% it's good. If it's 5%, it's a bit elitist game balance. If it's 1% the game is just tuned wrong. You know, not everybody is born an Alcast or Andy. Nor ESO selling point is hard core raiding. It's a MMO meant to be played "as you want", that is, not catering to the tiny elite.

It's not "just" class. I run a Dunmer sorc and she pulls less DPS than my Altmer sorc. When we get to the point everybody should just be a copy and paste of same class and even same race, this means the game is nuts. Of course in every game there's a "winning combo" that prevails, but that should be reserved to top end hardcore "purists". I am fine that there are guilds and players going for the extreme. But nowadays you get random "zone chat spam" guilds (usually not the top end, have you ever seen Hodor LFM new players on zone chat?) demanding 35k - close to the upper end for a magsorc - and where 1-2k racial difference just doom you to be rejected.

If by "plenty" you mean "go with basic vAA guilds" then you are totally right. But what happens when you feel like doing hm trials or even "just" vMOL? There's basically a very loud silence out there. You get classified as "want to do elite content" and thus you are pushed to go to an elite guild. Too bad, you just got pushed into lion's mouth doing so, because the first thing they'll want to check if you perform like one of them.

2. You are making an argument about racial passives. Seems off topic, but yeah, certain races are better than others. I dont think the difference between Altmer and Dunmer is 2k on a dummy, but Altmer to nord, its probably more. Race has always mattered in ES games. In this game, it matters most to a DPS. If you care about being in a top raid guild, well, min/max your race. It's no secret as to which is best, and they make it pretty easy to change. In the time spent ranting on these forums, you could have worked minimum wage for a race change token. Haha.

1 and 3 are at odds with one another. ESO can be played as you want. Will putting thought into your build help? Of course, but you dont need 35K single target DPS to clear any content in this game on Normal or Vet. Maybe a few hardmodes go smoother, and you certainly need that type of DPS to be on the top of the leaderboards, but its all perfectly doable with less.

What you cannot do, is play the way you want AND expect to be breaking leader board records, or expect a group to carry you. And when you think about it, that would be a pretty awful state of affairs if it were that way. As to your VMOL comment, we were like the 4th or 5th guild to clear VMOL HM back in the day on PC/NA. I am not sure any of us where breaking 40k ST at the time, and I honestly dont think most of us where breaking 35k ST. Now everyone is pulling more damage then they were a few years ago, but the content doesnt require those types of numbers.

Are you looking for a progression group or a carry group? Most of us had to bang our heads against VMOL for a long time before we got a clear. especially HM. No secret that when I run it now, I am sometimes not interested in bringing lower DPS along, and most groups I know are going to be selective. Those fights arent DPS checks, but they are headaches to learn. Most of us dont care to repeat that process once we have done it. Sounds like you need to find/form a group of like minded people and bang your head against it for a while. It's what most of the rest of us did.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

But one can help others get as good as him so that everyone is gud together.

At the end you (ideally) get everybody as good as the best in their circle. But it's a "local maximum", that is, if the best is mediocre, everybody become as good as a mediocre player.
What's needed is to learn from tangibly better players, this rarely happens staying within a "circle", it requires to get out and meet new people.

Right but there is also a point where better players need to stop and help try and bring other players with them. Otherwise you run into the exact thing you mentioned previously.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Or I've found guilds that just put a big "lock" and keep all but "special snowflakes" out.

Not to be rude but it seems like you want to be at the very top, running with people who are considered the best but don't wish to put in the time and commitment that they require to play with them, however you're unwilling to work with "lesser" players in bringing them to a place you're happy with.

There a loads of guilds in ESO and I am sure there will be some which match what you're looking for, a casual once a week raid but has high quality players hitting big numbers. The best you can do is create a new thread in the PC/Mac EU recruitment forums explaining what you're looking for, post some DPS parses etc. and see what offers you get.

You are putting it too much on a personal perspective. I brought the discussion on all the magsorcs, not me or my personal situation. I don't want to be at the top, I want that someone who is not me and plays a mag sorc can aspire to be at the top.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you want to run in a raid group that pushes trial scores, you are going to have high DPS requirements. Word to the wise, dont get tied to one character (big reason a lot of us are always screaming about account wide achievements). Do you think all the guys in MC mained mNBs before they no deathed VAS+2? Of course not. DPS at that level figure out what is best each patch and play it until it gets changed. Perfect balance is an illusion in an MMO. It's an impossible standard that we as a community attempt to force on the devs, but one or two classes will always emerge as meta, especially on something as objective as a DPS meter. Admittedly, sometimes balance is better than others.

This patch, for range, it is magic nightblade. Magic sorc is perfectly viable for the vast majority of content, even when going for a leaderboard spot, and you can certainly still hit 40k on a dummy with a sorc. I will even argue that in "average" hands, sorc is going to win most DPS races, but if both players are highly skilled, mageblade is always going to win. The same could have been said about magic sorc a year ago, and magic DK a year before that. We have even seen the templar DPS meta. Like it or not, it's the age of the nightblade. If you want to play stamina, you have more options available to you, but those spots are generally harder to secure in a raid. Even though stamina rotations are generally much easier, they require a much higher level of raid awareness to play effectively.

I see three possible solutions to your problem:

1. L2P, hate to start there, but the 35k requirement you speak of is perfectly doable on a magic Sorc in Dragon Bones.
2. Except your classes fate. Maybe sorc isnt the class you should be playing this patch. Admittedly, if you cant break 35k on a sorc, I doubt you will do it on mNB as its a significantly (we are talking night and day) harder rotation. This patch is the first time I can remember where my mNB DPS has pulled ahead of mSorc DPS on the dummy for me.
3. Adjust your expectations of the groups you want to run with. Plenty of raid groups dont demand 35k.

Perfectly doable: sure. The discriminating factor is: how many in the overall playerbase skill (a Gaussian of all players skill) can do that, vs other classes? If it's 10% it's good. If it's 5%, it's a bit elitist game balance. If it's 1% the game is just tuned wrong. You know, not everybody is born an Alcast or Andy. Nor ESO selling point is hard core raiding. It's a MMO meant to be played "as you want", that is, not catering to the tiny elite.

It's not "just" class. I run a Dunmer sorc and she pulls less DPS than my Altmer sorc. When we get to the point everybody should just be a copy and paste of same class and even same race, this means the game is nuts. Of course in every game there's a "winning combo" that prevails, but that should be reserved to top end hardcore "purists". I am fine that there are guilds and players going for the extreme. But nowadays you get random "zone chat spam" guilds (usually not the top end, have you ever seen Hodor LFM new players on zone chat?) demanding 35k - close to the upper end for a magsorc - and where 1-2k racial difference just doom you to be rejected.

If by "plenty" you mean "go with basic vAA guilds" then you are totally right. But what happens when you feel like doing hm trials or even "just" vMOL? There's basically a very loud silence out there. You get classified as "want to do elite content" and thus you are pushed to go to an elite guild. Too bad, you just got pushed into lion's mouth doing so, because the first thing they'll want to check if you perform like one of them.

2. You are making an argument about racial passives. Seems off topic, but yeah, certain races are better than others. I dont think the difference between Altmer and Dunmer is 2k on a dummy, but Altmer to nord, its probably more. Race has always mattered in ES games. In this game, it matters most to a DPS. If you care about being in a top raid guild, well, min/max your race. It's no secret as to which is best, and they make it pretty easy to change. In the time spent ranting on these forums, you could have worked minimum wage for a race change token. Haha.

As I have mentioned above, I have an Altmer sorc too. With gold gear and all. But I refuse to "bend down" and just follow the river like all the good fishes. I have an Altmer and I find her bland and "plastic blonde" like most Altmer. It's a (MMO)RPG game, why do I have to play a character I don't like and conform to the path of least resistance or be a pariah? If it's so, then just delete "non META" races and have this awesome MMO with 1 perfect magicka and 1 perfect stamina race and be done with it.

With all the zillion costumes and gear ZOS are selling, they should understand people care about their own characters' aesthetics as well.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What you cannot do, is play the way you want AND expect to be breaking leader board records, or expect a group to carry you.

I don't recall me asking to break any record or to expect to be carried. Feel free to ask my guildmates (all my guilds) and they'll all tell you I am the weird guy who insists keep trying beating the trial for more 2 hours than scheduled, to grind all the hm 4/12 men possible and so on.
Anyway, as I replied above, this thread is not about me - I am irrelevant in the scale of a MMO - but about thousands of players who play a class that after years of abhorrent changes, has been stripped off anything but DPS role (for trials). If a class that can only do DPS, stops delivering competitive DPS, then what's the point of it?

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Are you looking for a progression group or a carry group? Most of us had to bang our heads against VMOL for a long time before we got a clear. especially HM. No secret that when I run it now, I am sometimes not interested in bringing lower DPS along, and most groups I know are going to be selective. Those fights arent DPS checks, but they are headaches to learn. Most of us dont care to repeat that process once we have done it. Sounds like you need to find/form a group of like minded people and bang your head against it for a while. It's what most of the rest of us did.

I am not interested bringing in my own issues, but class issues. In my opinion "carry groups" should not even exist.

Azyle1 · March 2018

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

Vahrokh · March 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

Eh eh I think we got a little misunderstandment here. I thought you were to show your magsorc 40.7k DPS here (to disprove my points). You posted a 40.7k DPS nightblade parse, not only proving my point (magsorc overnerfs went too far, other classes pull "pre off-balance nerf" DPS), plus you add on top of it by admitting it was at your "first try" (meaning you can do much better with more efffort). This further proves my point.

Azyle1 · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

Eh eh I think we got a little misunderstandment here. I thought you were to show your magsorc 40.7k DPS here (to disprove my points). You posted a 40.7k DPS nightblade parse, not only proving my point (magsorc overnerfs went too far, other classes pull "pre off-balance nerf" DPS), plus you add on top of it by admitting it was at your "first try" (meaning you can do much better with more efffort). This further proves my point.

Oh sorry. I thought you wanted the NB parse. My bad.

MakeMeUhSamich · March 2018

FWIW Here’s a Crushing/Clench double lightning no-pet rotation I’ve been using that’s hitting 35k+. Gear is 5 Acuity, 3 Moondancer, 2 Illambris, AS (imperfect), & VMA. I’m still tweaking CP, but I’m on console so it’s slow and expensive lol. Apprentice Mundus and 32 in Erosion. This is down ~2k from last patch.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MakeMeUhSamich/video/45253134

getemshauna · March 2018

I'm one tricking Magblade, but somewhere in my character selection I have Magsorc, so I decided to take a look if it's already that bad.
I never played sorc seriously, I took from the depths of my bank non-perfect Asylum staff, VMA staff, Julianos, Illambris, Willpower. Pretty casual stuff, nothing actually in meta - except staves. With trial setup (Apprentice, 34 points in Spell Erosion and 75 in Thaumaturge) I somehow managed to get 34.7k on a 6 million dummy, with double inferno. Pretty random parse. I even had Absorb Magicka enchant.
I hadn't every passive and non-exped skills because I mostly do writs on that character, but 35k+ with proper setup is easily accessible, especially for someone who plays sorc frequently.

It doesn't ofcourse mean that magsorc is currently good dps - it's miles behind magblade, and his existence in raid group is only due to Asylum staves and Alkosh proc for a tank from Liquid Lightning.
I barely played other classess than Magblade for 1 year already, but when I picked that sorc I was surprised how it's hard to sustain with magicka.
Result is simple - Morrowind destroyed the game. Seriously.

Here is the parse if someone wants to see it. I used hardest possible rotation for Magsorc yelling highest dps, but ofcourse parse is far from being perfect:

https://youtu.be/5xXSh8xFPOA

Carbonised · March 2018

andy_s wrote: »

learn2cheese issue

https://youtu.be/GeZJwfERsbg

Out of interest, what's the addon being used here to track the DoTs? I've been using LUI for a good while, but I find those countdown bars that gradually diminish a lot more helpful to gauge when to recast various dots.
But which addon is it that provides this?

Vahrokh · March 2018

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

FWIW Here’s a Crushing/Clench double lightning no-pet rotation I’ve been using that’s hitting 35k+. Gear is 5 Acuity, 3 Moondancer, 2 Illambris, AS (imperfect), & VMA. I’m still tweaking CP, but I’m on console so it’s slow and expensive lol. Apprentice Mundus and 32 in Erosion. This is down ~2k from last patch.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MakeMeUhSamich/video/45253134

This is really nice, it's the first video I find, featuring a simple rotation that makes good use of a non perfected staff.

What worries me is that you would be barely allowed into a progression guild, despite your obvious effort spent into developing your character. Once you are let in, all you can improve is to get a perfected staff and then you are hard capped. Whereas any random noob with a stam / magblade is just starting his DPS upgrade, with a +10K perspective growth.

Vahrokh · March 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

I'm one tricking Magblade, but somewhere in my character selection I have Magsorc, so I decided to take a look if it's already that bad.
I never played sorc seriously, I took from the depths of my bank non-perfect Asylum staff, VMA staff, Julianos, Illambris, Willpower. Pretty casual stuff, nothing actually in meta - except staves. With trial setup (Apprentice, 34 points in Spell Erosion and 75 in Thaumaturge) I somehow managed to get 34.7k on a 6 million dummy, with double inferno. Pretty random parse. I even had Absorb Magicka enchant.
I hadn't every passive and non-exped skills because I mostly do writs on that character, but 35k+ with proper setup is easily accessible, especially for someone who plays sorc frequently.

It doesn't ofcourse mean that magsorc is currently good dps - it's miles behind magblade, and his existence in raid group is only due to Asylum staves and Alkosh proc for a tank from Liquid Lightning.
I barely played other classess than Magblade for 1 year already, but when I picked that sorc I was surprised how it's hard to sustain with magicka.
Result is simple - Morrowind destroyed the game. Seriously.

Here is the parse if someone wants to see it. I used hardest possible rotation for Magsorc yelling highest dps, but ofcourse parse is far from being perfect:
https://youtu.be/5xXSh8xFPOA

Your video, your swaps etc. shows you are evidently skilled.

However you parsed 34.7k, while in the past you'd easily have done 38k. Even 38k is still well below nightblades caps, and this is exactly why I created this thread: to prove that sorcs have been overnerfed.
I know ZOS are accustomed at overnerfing, but that does not mean nobody should point them out about their errors!

And... all of this in a parse where you had a massive amount of crystal frag progs and a crit rate above the average your gear stats show in Combat Metrics. Had you been less lucky you could easily have done less than 34k.

Now, one who is highly skilled (even if self admittedly out of practice) should not need to depend on the RNG gods to be considered worth joining a progression guild. Shouldn't he?

MakeMeUhSamich · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

FWIW Here’s a Crushing/Clench double lightning no-pet rotation I’ve been using that’s hitting 35k+. Gear is 5 Acuity, 3 Moondancer, 2 Illambris, AS (imperfect), & VMA. I’m still tweaking CP, but I’m on console so it’s slow and expensive lol. Apprentice Mundus and 32 in Erosion. This is down ~2k from last patch.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MakeMeUhSamich/video/45253134

This is really nice, it's the first video I find, featuring a simple rotation that makes good use of a non perfected staff.

What worries me is that you would be barely allowed into a progression guild, despite your obvious effort spent into developing your character. Once you are let in, all you can improve is to get a perfected staff and then you are hard capped. Whereas any random noob with a stam / magblade is just starting his DPS upgrade, with a +10K perspective growth.

Thank you, I enjoy playing it and it sustains well. It parses low to mid 40s in group tests. I’ve been in a couple of Progression Guilds (nothing too sweaty) and got my vMoL skin (no HM yet).

I share your frustration with the series of nerfs MagSorcs have endured the last few patches. However, the pendulum may swing the other way in the near future.

#buffSorcs

jakeedmundson · March 2018

Just my 2-cents...

I did a single parse last night. swapped my maelstrom lightning for a maelstrom inferno

Changed my CP to have about 50 points in thaum and added the extra to elemental damage.

hit 34k with a pet build. That was one parse... i'm sure i can push that to 35k+ if i cared to.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2018

Depends on what you consider "serious" progression. MSorc DPS is still well above and beyond what's needed to do all vet trials and all hardmodes in the game. Are you going to be pushing world record times? If yes, then sure, take a bunch of magicka nbs. But if you are just looking to complete stuff with ease, MSorc is still perfectly fine.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

I barely played other classess than Magblade for 1 year already, but when I picked that sorc I was surprised how it's hard to sustain with magicka.
Result is simple - Morrowind destroyed the game. Seriously.

This is probably the biggest issue here. While I dont agree that "morrowind destroyed the game", it certainly introduced the biggest balance problems we have seen from a PVE DPS perspective. This is only one area of the game, but admittedly, the area I have by far the most experience with. The nerfs to sustain were so bad that the only dynamic classes that survived at competitive end game were stamina builds (DW heavy attacks are quick and responsive) and magic nightblade (siphoning allows us to sustain without HAs).

Before the off balance changes in DB, sorc survived morrowind as essentially the off balance class, and the noob class. Sorc had far and away the easiest rotation to break 40k on a dummy. These parses were of course inflated because of the ridiculous off balance time, and more prevalent, because of the ease of rotation. It's further compounded by the fact that if you rewind the clock about a year, mSorc was broken OP in PVE, far more so than NBs are broken right now.

The same phenomenon of trial guilds being 7/8 of the same class/spec for DPS that we see now with mageblades was happening with mSorcs. The difference was, that WAY more people could pull it off because the rotation was so easy. In other words, when sorcs fell, a LOT more people noticed.

Rewind the clock about 2 years (whenever it was that they buffed pets) and magic sorc was the skill class. Very few people played it as competitive DPS (it was the Age of mDKs and even templars). It was basically, Streak (NA) and Yolo Wizard (EU) as a sorc on trial boards and that was about it.

I really see two issues:

1. They need to figure out a better way to help sustain in PVE. It seems that they made some efforts last patch, but its not enough. As long as mBlades and stamboys are the only class that can sustain a high DPS rotation, people are going to be upset about balance. The answer of course is not a mabeblade nerf (its probably the best designed class in the game), its a buff to other classes to make their rotations more sustainable. I am fine with a class like mageblade being more difficult with greater benefit, but the other options probably need to be a little more viable. Lets raise the floor, without lowering the ceiling (something ZOS does not have a great track record at accomplishing).

2. The other huge issue, which essentially acts as a magnifying glass to the whole problem is that a LOT of people rolled sorcs once they became the OP cheese class. I will say it again, no class as every been as broken OP from a DPS perspective as magic sorc was about a year ago, because the rotation was just so darn easy. What has happened, as that mSorc has probably seen the biggest "fall from grace" of any class in the mind of the average player, certainly the biggest fall recently. This makes the problem more visible, because more people played it.

All that said, the game is where it is. It wont be there in 1-2 patches as the wheel is always turning. Does the game need some balance adjustments and sustain buff? IMO, you bet, but that's why most serious end game players have multiple classes and adjust to the meta. I did my VO progression on a Stamblade, Did most of my early score pushing on a mDK, did my vMOLHM progression on a sorc, HOF on both mSorc and stamina (sorc and DK), and am now working VAS+2 on mNB.

There will always be a meta DPS class, because you will never get perfect balance. On something as objective as a DPS meter, people will always figure out what's best, and its going to change as patches change. I certain small percent of the player base will switch class even for a minimal DPS increase. Personally, I like that; it keeps end game interesting. What they need to avoid in the future perhaps, is making the swings so drastic, and of course, fix some other class toolkits to give them more options for the average player.

This thread probably wouldnt exist if sorc hadnt got so out of hand OP in the first place (coming from someone that road that wave).

Izaki · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Glad to see @Alcast and @andy_s, you are exactly those I was thinking about, when I wrote:

"... and end game fully geared, skilled players being able to achieve that.
It was perhaps 1% of the DPS playerbase"

Even then, it's quite telling, how mighty Andy (possibly one of the best players in the world) is parsing around the same DPS that random unknown NBs are posting on these forums.

Anyway, congrats on seemingly 100% curse uptime, I've never been able to go above 89%.

Show me some parses from these "random nobodies".

Izaki · March 2018

Btw this thread is total bull. Anyone can do the same numbers as anyone with enough practice and understanding of their own class. So just as in any of these threads the only true and correct answer is: get good.

Maybe the issue most people are seeing is the rotation. I see lots of players who just refresh their DoTs well before they expire just to have an easy rotation. Mag Sorc has DoTs of 8 seconds, 10 seconds and 12 seconds. That calls for a dynamic rotation. And as far as sustain goes, when you see that your target is off balance, sneak in a heavy attack. This happens every 10 seconds, which is the duration of your strongest DoT, so its definitely doable. Andy's parse is a perfect example of a dynamic Mag Sorc rotation. Liko is another one if you can be bothered to search up on YT.

f047ys3v3n · March 2018

All I see is more NB nerfs coming. I remember when few people started running NB around the time vSO was scaled to 160 because they figured out it's dps was o okk and off heals were strong. I got a 50% nerf to my overall heal output (less targets no dubble crits) and a ~20% cost increase to funnel (later got another 40%). That fixed that right quick. NB has never been strong very long. Historically, sorcs have been strong the longest followed by DK's. Templars and NB's have had much more fleeting moments in the light.

For what it is worth, I hope the nerf comes to relentless focus. I hate the way that works anyway. The vast majority of the error in my rotation comes from that. It was so bad I just gave up on the whole meta rotation and back barred it for a loss of a couple k.

gethemshauna wrote: »

Result is simple - Morrowind destroyed the game. Seriously.

I totally agree with this. Combat in PVE has been crap since and so has balance. After spending 3 years skill by skill balancing resource cost, dungeon mechanics (that sometimes involve drains) and different classes, you can't just cut off ~30% of resources (more for classes like NB who also lost a strong resource skill) and have things work. The big nerf also gave CE use much more of an advantage than it had before as it used to not have an edge in PVE with regards to resources as everyone could sustain with good group support.

Oreyn had a good point on mechanics skill as well. DPS accepted for raids has, in my experience, always been variable based on a players skill with handling mechanics. At no time since CE became popular have I been on the higher half of all endgame raid DPS (yes I was before) and I was raiding competitively with a few PCNA #1 leaderboard showings until Morrowind. Many raid mechanics are such that, even with CE buffed health and resistances, guys who have cheated their way to good DPS parses but are also just not that good die. Mechanics still matter more than DPS most of the time and the DPS check on trials is not 35k (maybe on vAA HM, I don't remember the number there, just that it was high due to the tank / axe resource mess).

Lastly, I still think most these (actually all of these) 40k NB parses are CE. I don't see enough DOT downtime or weave error in my rotation to explain the differences in dps from the youtubers and my own. Even the visible stat numbers in their reports often do not look legit and I suspect those that are not visible (pen for one) are even further off.

I'll just sit and wait for the NB nerf. I'm sure it will arrive before ZOS does anything about CE. My bet is that they just cost increase funnel another 30% or so and kill the class altogether since then you won't really be able to use relentless much.

clocksstoppe · March 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

NB parses are simply useless as they are all cheese

JobooAGS · March 2018

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

NB parses are simply useless as they are all cheese

Unless they are using tfs, kraghs, and/or lover, how?

clocksstoppe · March 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

NB parses are simply useless as they are all cheese

Unless they are using tfs, kraghs, and/or lover, how?

3M dummy. he is halfway through it and burned all his stamina already, because he gets it to execute range as fast as he can and then the execute deals 45k damage alone to cheese the dps meter.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

NB parses are simply useless as they are all cheese

Unless they are using tfs, kraghs, and/or lover, how?

What you are describing is honestly not cheese in my opinion. I see nothing wrong with running penetration sets on a target dummy. If you can hit X amount of DPS wearing pen sets on a dummy, in a good raid the gives you pen and allows you to wear damage sets, you will pull DPS>X in a trial. Cheese implies that you are misrepresenting your ability somehow, and pen sets simply dont do that.

In other words, a cheesed parse is a parse that results in numbers that arent realistic in a trial/group setting. If you can hit 40k going all pen on a dummy, you will hit more than 40k in a good raid wearing damage sets. If you dont have a good raid that gives you pen buffs, well, you are a fool for not wearing pen sets in actual content because its your best way to increase DPS until very close to the cap. People need to stop calling pen sets cheese, because they arent. In fact, there is a good argument that when testing, you want to simulate a raid environment (full pen) as much as you can if you want to objectively analyze your rotation and DPS results..

What is cheese is altering your rotation (usually during opening and and execute) from what you would be able to do in a trial, which is usually combined with running a rotation/build that runs out of resources. Practically speaking on a nightbalde, there are three things that cheese a dummy.

1st. 99.999% of the playerbase will not see merciless function as well in trial setting as it does on a dummy. 3 procs per cast is simple on a dummy, in trials its much more difficult. Hard to blame the player on this one, as it's more a function of the game's stability.

2nd. They get very spammy with their execute and ignore other DOTs/Buffs that arent worth the recast when your execute phase is only a couple of seconds. Treat a 2 minute burn phase like that in a real trial, and your DPS falls off a cliff while your resources run dry.

3rd. They ignore resources. This is easy on a NB, especially on a 3 million. You can cast siphoning one time pre fight, and never reapply it. You wont of much to spare in terms of resources, but one cast is all it takes (pre-combat) to get you through a 3 million.

All of these things (and there are more) misrepresent your actual trial ability. Penetration sets do not.

Azyle1 · March 2018

clocksstoppe wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

NB parses are simply useless as they are all cheese

Unless they are using tfs, kraghs, and/or lover, how?

3M dummy. he is halfway through it and burned all his stamina already, because he gets it to execute range as fast as he can and then the execute deals 45k damage alone to cheese the dps meter.

It's whatever dude. You sound upset. I can throw my Velidreth on and still hit 40K, would that make you feel better? Do you think I'm going to run out of stamina in a group with shards and other synergies? Also, I do about 55K with this set up in our group that has NO war machines yet. (New prog guild I'm running with). Then think about the ~3 - 5% more dps just from CP alone I'll get.. meaning I'll have MORE stam at the end of the dummy. So... your post just reeks of hate.

Also it's kragh. Oh boy 1,400 pen. I used no lovers, no TFS. There is nothing cheese about it. In a trial setting I have better resources and better buffs going around so there isn't anything wrong with a 3 million dummy. It shows I know how to play my class because honestly, if you think me adding a heavy attack or two here and there (That is literally all I would need to change ) is really making a huge difference, think again.

Or better yet, I'll put the other stam food on that gives less hp and stam but more recovery. Then I'll almost never get low of stam. Still perfectly viable in trials if you have half a brain.

Sky_WK · March 2018

Don't join a guild that doesn't separate mag and stam parse requirements, they won't know what they're doing.

NyassaV · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Most 40k parses have lover unless you are using War Machine/Master Architect. Lover is needed to simulate trials environment hence why you see all those 40k parses with lover

Vahrokh · March 2018

clocksstoppe wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

FYI, here is the video.

It's 40.7K DPS. Was my first try after I got home from work. So if you want another with higher DPS, then fine, but I figured that would suffice.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmBzZIGQDMPulXIg0Df6gz2BEKvm

NB parses are simply useless as they are all cheese

Unless they are using tfs, kraghs, and/or lover, how?

3M dummy. he is halfway through it and burned all his stamina already, because he gets it to execute range as fast as he can and then the execute deals 45k damage alone to cheese the dps meter.

It's a fair parse, because sorcs are doing 3M parses too, use magicka down to the last drop too and have an execute too (albeit not the best one).

Vahrokh · March 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Most 40k parses have lover unless you are using War Machine/Master Architect. Lover is needed to simulate trials environment hence why you see all those 40k parses with lover

Sadly, even borderline cheese youtubers using Lover and pulling 42K before DB, now do 36k.
Other youtubers (T3hasiangod) do 33-34k because they parse on 6M dummies.
Others like VERY famous Xynode just published his DB build and he's parsing like 33k.

We are left with "variable rotation" skill monsters like Andy, who can handle changing the rotation all the time during a fight.
Most "human beings" can't do that. Whereas there are NBs doing a more complex but not variable rotation (which is hard to pull off) doing just fine.

I recall 2015, when I quit ESO for 2 years, only 2 or so Hodor - quality sorcs were doing trials, because anyone not as good as them were just an atrocious sight.

And now the wheel turned and we'll have a year+ of garbage to endure.

Gnortranermara · March 2018

35k is easily attainable on every class in the game and it's a reasonable standard for the more challenging DLC trials.

Runefang · March 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Most 40k parses have lover unless you are using War Machine/Master Architect. Lover is needed to simulate trials environment hence why you see all those 40k parses with lover

I've seen plenty of 40k parses that don't use Lover.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Most 40k parses have lover unless you are using War Machine/Master Architect. Lover is needed to simulate trials environment hence why you see all those 40k parses with lover

Sadly, even borderline cheese youtubers using Lover and pulling 42K before DB, now do 36k.
Other youtubers (T3hasiangod) do 33-34k because they parse on 6M dummies.
Others like VERY famous Xynode just published his DB build and he's parsing like 33k.

We are left with "variable rotation" skill monsters like Andy, who can handle changing the rotation all the time during a fight.
Most "human beings" can't do that. Whereas there are NBs doing a more complex but not variable rotation (which is hard to pull off) doing just fine.

I recall 2015, when I quit ESO for 2 years, only 2 or so Hodor - quality sorcs were doing trials, because anyone not as good as them were just an atrocious sight.

And now the wheel turned and we'll have a year+ of garbage to endure.

Hard to pull off is the understatement of the century. The magic nightblades you see pulling 40k plus on 6 million health dummies are doing the same thing as you are complaining about. Their rotations are, to use your term, highly variable.

(Sidebar: Stam nightblades have more complex rotations than other stam classes, but they are still circular in nature. Its also not relevant because all stam rotations are circular in nature and no reason to compare stamblade to mSorc).

Have you actually played magic nightblade? Have you hit 40k with it on dummy? I assure you they are HIGHLY variable. mNightblades that break 40k are very few and far between, and it is far and away the most complex rotation in the game. There is essentially no order to it. You have 4 medium duration DOTs that all need to be juggled independently, a long duration buff (siphoning), again must be managed independently, and on top of all that, you have to juggle the most difficult skill to manage in the game (merciless). Oh, and when you get to execute, you have to modify most of what I just said. Combine that with the fact that your weave and bar swap canceling must be PERFECT.

If you are mad at the DPS gap between mSorc and mNB, belive me, i get it. If, on the other hand, you think that pulling high DPS on a sorc requires highly difficult rotation where as it doesnt on a mNB, you couldnt be further from the truth. mNB is the most difficult rotation (for lack of a better word) in the game, and second place isnt even close.

LZH is probably the best NB in the game, maybe the best magic DPS in the game, and this is him in full trial gear on a 6 million health dummy and the apprentice mundus stone. He pulls just under 41k, and for the love of god, look at that rotation. People doing circular rotations on NB, dont get anywhere near that. That said, very simple and circular sorc rotations can still hit high 30's with their eyes close. Yes there is a gap, but it is as much of a skill gap as anything, because even the most difficult sorc rotations just dont compare to this in terms of difficulty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lu6IOwhCMI (Dragon Bones)

And because I didnt count on the new vid he just posted (today) (Edit: just counted 79 bar swaps). Here is last patch, where he pulled around 42k. He bar swaps 74 times in this one. No other class rotation comes close to that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOH0uQ-Qgbw (CWC)