The permanent costume of ungrouped players in Cyrodiil [Wizard's Riposte Rant]

Derra · March 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I dislike it aswell.

I think however that it´s just a symptom of the overall problematic situation where defensive sets outperform offensive ones.

Why is spinner 3450 pen (only for spell mind you) but brass gives you 5170 of both resistances.
Why is there no set giving me 15% increased dmg if i crit my target.

If people had legitimate offensive counters to overperforming defense it wouldn´t be as much of a problem (the problem being boring gameplay with noone dying) if offense wasn´t as gutted as it currently is.

Every time we get a decent offensive set, people post on these forums to get it nerfed and won't stop until Zos obliges.

So I wouldn't count on that changing soon.

Sheep no likey sharpy toothies - so they cry for nerf.
Sheep much likey more woolharness as protection from the bitey.

zyk · March 2018

Anazasi wrote: »

Don't forget NB fear. While it fears only 2 now the secondary minor maim still hits 6 every time. It's purgable and can be cleansed. Sound like this whole thread is based on l2p issues.

Minor Maim from nb fear only has a duration of 4 seconds which is consistent with minor maim applied by nb shades and what I am suggesting for Wizard's Riposte.

Xsorus wrote: »

Light armor users would just switch to Brass

Right now I'm fighting players wearing Brass and other defensive sets while dealing with Minor Maim via Riposte from other opponents. So that would be quite a lot better.

Derra wrote: »

I dislike it aswell.

I think however that it´s just a symptom of the overall problematic situation where defensive sets outperform offensive ones.

I think it's partly because of undaunted burst proc sets. It would be impossible to achieve the kind of burst they add to combos with conventional stat boosts. It would probably require the equivalent of cruel flurry for direct damage.

But I think it goes a bit further than that and into the business model....

Joy_Division wrote: »

Every time we get a decent offensive set, people post on these forums to get it nerfed and won't stop until Zos obliges.

I don't put it on the players ever. We're the peanut gallery. If they're making important gameplay decisions merely because we demand it, that is a problem of theirs. The inmates cannot run the asylum and are not responsible for the terrible outcomes if they were allowed to.

I think ZOS creates powerful new sets to compel PVP only players to sub/buy DLCs, but at the same time give everyone the tools to counter them through via tradable sets like Wizard's Riposte. This cycle is part of how they monetize PVP.

The problem with this approach is that it's created really bad gameplay with tanky builds everywhere and unsatisfying fights--win or lose. I avoided proc sets until 3.2 and found my kills with them to be very meh during my recent experiments. I'm pretty sure a dislike of this is pretty common.

Gameplay design should be completely separate from the business model. I expect new sets should be added with new content, but the primary motive to subscribe should not be because of overtly OP sets.

ZOS should instead monetize PVP through essential ESO Plus features for PVP players such as a siege bag, PVP specific gear profiles to make it easier to switch between PVP and PVE, etc..

OdinForge · March 2018

This is a pretty funny post, I've become so used to having that debuff on me.

Although I'm not sure what the right change would be, I've previously been of the opinion that it shouldn't be changed.

ofSunhold · March 2018

This super-strong defensive meta is... really something. The game imposes no penalties on death but time inconvenience - and losing, at least for the moment - yet it seems everybody's just terrified they might die. Wizard's Riposte doesn't even stand out.

Let's see some love for those willing to risk themselves, ZOS. The gameplay could only improve.

Minalan · March 2018

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

That thing is way too common and I'm tired of purging it. Please nerf. Cut the amount or duration, make it only proc on direct damage and not every aoe/dot tick, whatever.

Direct damage sounds fair enough. I use it now and then, and I admit it’s absolute cancer on Sorcs and Magplars (99% of the guys using it, let’s be honest) because AOE and caltrops applies it.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The better change imo is reducing Minor Maim to 8% damage reduction, to mirror similar buffs and debuffs such as Minor Berserk (Maim's intended direct mirror), Minor Vulnerability, and Minor Protection, all of which modify damage taken or dealt by 8%.

You could implement that change and reduce Riposte's duration to 8 seconds, and the set would still be strong and see plenty of use. Further reducing the duration would raise questions, but the set would still be viable in many uses.

Teargrants was telling me that (from testing) minor maim is actually only about 10% damage reduction in a CP campaign or duel because of how damage/CP gets applied. So it’s close enough to that. In No-CP, it’s full 15%. Heaven knows what a nerf to 8% will actually do, 6%?

8 seconds though, I don’t have a problem with the duration when you can already get permanent minor berserk with a two piece set (slimecraw).

VaranisArano · March 2018

ofSunhold wrote: »

This super-strong defensive meta is... really something. The game imposes no penalties on death but time inconvenience - and losing, at least for the moment - yet it seems everybody's just terrified they might die. Wizard's Riposte doesn't even stand out.

Let's see some love for those willing to risk themselves, ZOS. The gameplay could only improve.

If I die in game, I die in real life, right?

ofSunhold · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

This super-strong defensive meta is... really something. The game imposes no penalties on death but time inconvenience - and losing, at least for the moment - yet it seems everybody's just terrified they might die. Wizard's Riposte doesn't even stand out.

Let's see some love for those willing to risk themselves, ZOS. The gameplay could only improve.

If I die in game, I die in real life, right?

Well, yeah. Eventually.

Minno · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

That thing is way too common and I'm tired of purging it. Please nerf. Cut the amount or duration, make it only proc on direct damage and not every aoe/dot tick, whatever.

Direct damage sounds fair enough. I use it now and then, and I admit it’s absolute cancer on Sorcs and Magplars (99% of the guys using it, let’s be honest) because AOE and caltrops applies it.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The better change imo is reducing Minor Maim to 8% damage reduction, to mirror similar buffs and debuffs such as Minor Berserk (Maim's intended direct mirror), Minor Vulnerability, and Minor Protection, all of which modify damage taken or dealt by 8%.

You could implement that change and reduce Riposte's duration to 8 seconds, and the set would still be strong and see plenty of use. Further reducing the duration would raise questions, but the set would still be viable in many uses.

Teargrants was telling me that (from testing) minor maim is actually only about 10% damage reduction in a CP campaign or duel because of how damage/CP gets applied. So it’s close enough to that. In No-CP, it’s full 15%. Heaven knows what a nerf to 8% will actually do, 6%?

8 seconds though, I don’t have a problem with the duration when you can already get permanent minor berserk with a two piece set (slimecraw).

@Taylor_MB did the math for us for CP setups in his thread. I can't remember the full percentage anymore but it's lower than 15% after battlespirit+CP mitigation.

The basic rundown was it is so similar to transmutation for defense that your only determination in selection of either set was if you needed mag Regen or not.

Minno · March 2018

zyk wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

High uptime on Minor Maim isn't anything new: if you've fought a NB with Shadow Image or a S&B build with Heroic Slash, you've already been in a fight where Minor Maim was almost always on you. The only thing Riposte does is make it easier to apply when outnumbered, and you're sacrificing a 5pc for that.

And it's not saving you from CC+burst anyway. Even with major protection my templar ass is getting burst left and right.

Compared to abilities that absorb/dodge entire attacks or compared to high crit resist that nullify crit burst; id rather have those defenses than reposte.

Regardless of whether you think Riposte has value (it does), after I attack your teammate in Riposte and then switch targets, my damage is reduced by 15% for 15 seconds against you and the defenses from the sets you think are better. It is an extremely common set (at least among EP and DC), so this is a persistent routine that goes on all night.

15% damage reduction basically nullifies the damage added by the 5th bonus of 2.5-3 offensive sets. Consider that 300 weapon damage might only buff your overall damage by less than 4%. It is significant.

If we use the DMG mitigation calculator:
With 20% Ironclad, 10% Hardy and 20k physical resists, your total mitigation is around 74% against a 20k tooltip attack before empower. This is also before armor debuffs.

With minor maim your total mitigation is 76%. Also before armor debuffs.

If your target has 10k penetration, but you have the same CP setups as above, your looking at 69% total mitigation. With minor maim it's at 71%.

Minor maim only increases your total mitigation by like 2% with typical CP setups. CP + battlespirit+ armor higher than 19k are doing more DMG reduction than minor main maim.

Derra · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Teargrants was telling me that (from testing) minor maim is actually only about 10% damage reduction in a CP campaign or duel because of how damage/CP gets applied. So it’s close enough to that. In No-CP, it’s full 15%. Heaven knows what a nerf to 8% will actually do, 6%?

8 seconds though, I don’t have a problem with the duration when you can already get permanent minor berserk with a two piece set (slimecraw).

Yes minor maim as diminishing returns in CP environment bc it´s additive to other % dmg modification. I don´t really think that´s a real issue as dmg is so low at the moment anyway. 10% is still more than 500spell/weapondmg provide for most builds.

I also think maim has no direct "counterbuff" on the offensive side of things.
The counter to berserk is protection.
Protection is between 5 and 6% mitigation.

I´d personally rework the set to provide empower for 2s/next attack when being crit. Begone with the defensive nonsense. Riposte is a counterattack not some random debuff.

@Minno you can´t really look at riposte that way though. You have to look at the absolute dmg reduction it provides on an actual attack. When i attack a player with 11% elemental defender and 19% thick skinned my dmg will go down by 11% - 887 vs 998dmg with a lightattack (0 resistances bc shields).
Whereas loosing 520 spelldmg only results in 9% dmg loss - 14800 vs 13600 tooltip value of fragments (i know i should have tested with the same ability but the player i tested with went offline).

Now if you figure in that 520spd is unobtainable as an offensive setbonus with the same uptime as riposte has and riposte is able to affect an unlimited amount of enemy players aswell i think it kinda paints a very clear picture of an overperforming 5p setbonus.

Minalan · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

High uptime on Minor Maim isn't anything new: if you've fought a NB with Shadow Image or a S&B build with Heroic Slash, you've already been in a fight where Minor Maim was almost always on you. The only thing Riposte does is make it easier to apply when outnumbered, and you're sacrificing a 5pc for that.

And it's not saving you from CC+burst anyway. Even with major protection my templar ass is getting burst left and right.

Compared to abilities that absorb/dodge entire attacks or compared to high crit resist that nullify crit burst; id rather have those defenses than reposte.

Regardless of whether you think Riposte has value (it does), after I attack your teammate in Riposte and then switch targets, my damage is reduced by 15% for 15 seconds against you and the defenses from the sets you think are better. It is an extremely common set (at least among EP and DC), so this is a persistent routine that goes on all night.

15% damage reduction basically nullifies the damage added by the 5th bonus of 2.5-3 offensive sets. Consider that 300 weapon damage might only buff your overall damage by less than 4%. It is significant.

If we use the DMG mitigation calculator:
With 20% Ironclad, 10% Hardy and 20k physical resists, your total mitigation is around 74% against a 20k tooltip attack before empower. This is also before armor debuffs.

With minor maim your total mitigation is 76%. Also before armor debuffs.

If your target has 10k penetration, but you have the same CP setups as above, your looking at 69% total mitigation. With minor maim it's at 71%.

Minor maim only increases your total mitigation by like 2% with typical CP setups. CP + battlespirit+ armor higher than 19k are doing more DMG reduction than minor main maim.

I think the effect is most pronounced on light armour builds and Shields (which have no armor) should see the biggest benefit. Even then it caps at 10.something percent.

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Teargrants was telling me that (from testing) minor maim is actually only about 10% damage reduction in a CP campaign or duel because of how damage/CP gets applied. So it’s close enough to that. In No-CP, it’s full 15%. Heaven knows what a nerf to 8% will actually do, 6%?

8 seconds though, I don’t have a problem with the duration when you can already get permanent minor berserk with a two piece set (slimecraw).

Always test things yourself. Always.

Yes minor maim as diminishing returns in CP environment bc it´s additive to other % dmg modification.
On an offensive light armor build however i´ve never been able to get it to provide less than 11% raw mitigation myself. It could be less on classes with minor protection as an available buff or with high armor mitigation (iE brass + riposte).

I also think maim has no direct "counterbuff" on the offensive side of things.
The counter to berserk is protection.

I´d personally rework the set to provide empower for 2s/next attack when being crit. Begone with the defensive nonsense. Riposte is a counterattack not some random debuff.

They need to fire their terrible, short-sighted and not too terribly bright set designers - and then hire you.

Derra · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Teargrants was telling me that (from testing) minor maim is actually only about 10% damage reduction in a CP campaign or duel because of how damage/CP gets applied. So it’s close enough to that. In No-CP, it’s full 15%. Heaven knows what a nerf to 8% will actually do, 6%?

8 seconds though, I don’t have a problem with the duration when you can already get permanent minor berserk with a two piece set (slimecraw).

Always test things yourself. Always.

Yes minor maim as diminishing returns in CP environment bc it´s additive to other % dmg modification.
On an offensive light armor build however i´ve never been able to get it to provide less than 11% raw mitigation myself. It could be less on classes with minor protection as an available buff or with high armor mitigation (iE brass + riposte).

I also think maim has no direct "counterbuff" on the offensive side of things.
The counter to berserk is protection.

I´d personally rework the set to provide empower for 2s/next attack when being crit. Begone with the defensive nonsense. Riposte is a counterattack not some random debuff.

They need to fire their terrible, short-sighted and not too terribly bright set designers - and then hire you.

Now i have sth to do for later. Testing how different offensive and defensive CP loadouts affect wizards. In theory you offensive CPs should have a greater effect on ripostes efficiency than your enemys def.
Also edited my post bc i´ve not looked into riposte outside of my own builds which don´t get below 11%dmg reduction but others sure might.

zyk · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Minor maim only increases your total mitigation by like 2% with typical CP setups. CP + battlespirit+ armor higher than 19k are doing more DMG reduction than minor main maim.

I do not believe this is accurate. It is not consistent with my experiences. We don't really need to rely on calculators or theory because we can easily test this practically.

Before the server went down, I tested quickly on a mudcrab. I used an unbuffed LA 5-1-1 (divines julianos+spinners+groth) nb with 23% ironclad and 9% hardy. The mudcrab's damage was reduced 15% by minor maim.

Obviously it would be best to test in Cyrodiil, but I think that test shows the effectiveness of minor maim is not being reduced by ironclad or hardy.

Whether damage is reduced by 15% or 10% at a practical level isn't really the point. The point is that the design results in a ridiculous battlefield condition for ungrouped players without a purge.

I think I am going to tell AD zone chat: "if you don't know how to play, just wear durok's or riposte and you'll be a huge help"

Derra · March 2018

zyk wrote: »

Before the server went down, I tested quickly on a mudcrab. I used an unbuffed LA 5-1-1 (divines julianos+spinners+groth) nb with 23% ironclad and 9% hardy. The mudcrab's damage was reduced 15% by minor maim.

Maim is additive to the victims offensive CP afaik which would mean with more % modifiers you have (cp, berserk, flamestaff) maim becomes less effective.

This also explains why it would have no effect on the mudcrab.

Rowjoh · March 2018

I have no problem with any sets nor any issues with PVP at all.

I kill many, I die occasionally, regardless of who's running what set-up and as a solo stealth player I have complete freedom to do and go wherever I want.

Great fun!

Minno · March 2018

zyk wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minor maim only increases your total mitigation by like 2% with typical CP setups. CP + battlespirit+ armor higher than 19k are doing more DMG reduction than minor main maim.

I do not believe this is accurate. It is not consistent with my experiences. We don't really need to rely on calculators or theory because we can easily test this practically.

Before the server went down, I tested quickly on a mudcrab. I used an unbuffed LA 5-1-1 (divines julianos+spinners+groth) nb with 23% ironclad and 9% hardy. The mudcrab's damage was reduced 15% by minor maim.

Obviously it would be best to test in Cyrodiil, but I think that test shows the effectiveness of minor maim is not being reduced by ironclad or hardy.

Whether damage is reduced by 15% or 10% at a practical level isn't really the point. The point is that the design results in a ridiculous battlefield condition for ungrouped players without a purge.

I think I am going to tell AD zone chat: "if you don't know how to play, just wear durok's or riposte and you'll be a huge help"

Well yes it's still 15% DMG off. But after battlespirit and CP, it's 15% off 6k instead off 20000 based on my example above. Total mitigation is your mitigation with all sources calculated; and this proves minor maim isn't overperforming like everyone is saying but that you are seeing the effects of battlespirit + your CP watering down DMG. So in your example, your CP already reduced the DMG, minor maim is taking the last chunk out.

You still have empower+ crit boosting that DMG too. That plus cc attempts are what will kill you (of which mudcrabs can't do).

badmojo · March 2018

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

Minalan · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minor maim only increases your total mitigation by like 2% with typical CP setups. CP + battlespirit+ armor higher than 19k are doing more DMG reduction than minor main maim.

I do not believe this is accurate. It is not consistent with my experiences. We don't really need to rely on calculators or theory because we can easily test this practically.

Before the server went down, I tested quickly on a mudcrab. I used an unbuffed LA 5-1-1 (divines julianos+spinners+groth) nb with 23% ironclad and 9% hardy. The mudcrab's damage was reduced 15% by minor maim.

Obviously it would be best to test in Cyrodiil, but I think that test shows the effectiveness of minor maim is not being reduced by ironclad or hardy.

Whether damage is reduced by 15% or 10% at a practical level isn't really the point. The point is that the design results in a ridiculous battlefield condition for ungrouped players without a purge.

I think I am going to tell AD zone chat: "if you don't know how to play, just wear durok's or riposte and you'll be a huge help"

Well yes it's still 15% DMG off. But after battlespirit and CP, it's 15% off 6k instead off 20000 based on my example above. Total mitigation is your mitigation with all sources calculated; and this proves minor maim isn't overperforming like everyone is saying but that you are seeing the effects of battlespirit + your CP watering down DMG. So in your example, your CP already reduced the DMG, minor maim is taking the last chunk out.

You still have empower+ crit boosting that DMG too. That plus cc attempts are what will kill you (of which mudcrabs can't do).

See above. Derra has the math right, being smarter than any of the halfwit ZOS devs. (If any of you are reading ZOS, most third graders toddlers are much smarter that you too! “High damage proc sets bad” and “15% damage reduction” are pretty simple concepts.)

ofSunhold · March 2018

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

Yeah. With purge so important and so expensive, it needs to not be restricted to groups. They clearly don't need further empowerment.

Temporary solution as usual: hug a templar.

Hempyre · March 2018

15 seconds is too long considering damn near everybody is wearing this set. It needs to be reduced to 8 seconds.

Minno · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minor maim only increases your total mitigation by like 2% with typical CP setups. CP + battlespirit+ armor higher than 19k are doing more DMG reduction than minor main maim.

I do not believe this is accurate. It is not consistent with my experiences. We don't really need to rely on calculators or theory because we can easily test this practically.

Before the server went down, I tested quickly on a mudcrab. I used an unbuffed LA 5-1-1 (divines julianos+spinners+groth) nb with 23% ironclad and 9% hardy. The mudcrab's damage was reduced 15% by minor maim.

Obviously it would be best to test in Cyrodiil, but I think that test shows the effectiveness of minor maim is not being reduced by ironclad or hardy.

Whether damage is reduced by 15% or 10% at a practical level isn't really the point. The point is that the design results in a ridiculous battlefield condition for ungrouped players without a purge.

I think I am going to tell AD zone chat: "if you don't know how to play, just wear durok's or riposte and you'll be a huge help"

Well yes it's still 15% DMG off. But after battlespirit and CP, it's 15% off 6k instead off 20000 based on my example above. Total mitigation is your mitigation with all sources calculated; and this proves minor maim isn't overperforming like everyone is saying but that you are seeing the effects of battlespirit + your CP watering down DMG. So in your example, your CP already reduced the DMG, minor maim is taking the last chunk out.

You still have empower+ crit boosting that DMG too. That plus cc attempts are what will kill you (of which mudcrabs can't do).

See above. Derra has the math right, being smarter than any of the halfwit ZOS devs. (If any of you are reading ZOS, most third graders toddlers are much smarter that you too! “High damage proc sets bad” and “15% damage reduction” are pretty simple concepts.)

Just saw. Idk why I bother lol.

VaranisArano · March 2018

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

ofSunhold · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

It would make a lick of difference to everybody not in your ball group, though. Fair point that it wouldn't compare to what an organized group can do, but it would certainly be better than the big fat nothing it does right now unless each person is carrying it individually.

Nobody is trying to steal your cookies, but it might be nice if there were a few more for everybody else.

Minalan · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

I think you’re missing the complaint entirely. The issue people have is that riposte is pretty much a permanent debuff with no cooldown or proc chance when you fight anyone with this set.

You hit someone with riposte. You’re maimed. You purge it. Someone with riposte walks into your caltrops. You’re maimed again. You purge it, or wait 15 seconds. Repeat forever. Purge doesn’t fix the issue at all, whether you have it or not.

Personally I just don’t feel bad for the stamina guys dealing with it. I agree with Derra though, “riposte” implies a counter attack of some kind, not a defense.

VaranisArano · March 2018

ofSunhold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

It would make a lick of difference to everybody not in your ball group, though. Fair point that it wouldn't compare to what an organized group can do, but it would certainly be better than the big fat nothing it does right now unless each person is carrying it individually.

Nobody is trying to steal your cookies, but it might be nice if there were a few more for everybody else.

That's fair, I was pretty confused as to what the complaint was. As I said, I wouldn't mind being able to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing. Its just that unless someone habitually runs right alongside an organized group, they wouldn't really get the benefit of Purge hitting everyone - so that would seem to encourage zerging, whereas the current set-up encourages being in an organized group.

badmojo · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

It would make a lick of difference to everybody not in your ball group, though. Fair point that it wouldn't compare to what an organized group can do, but it would certainly be better than the big fat nothing it does right now unless each person is carrying it individually.

Nobody is trying to steal your cookies, but it might be nice if there were a few more for everybody else.

That's fair, I was pretty confused as to what the complaint was. As I said, I wouldn't mind being able to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing. Its just that unless someone habitually runs right alongside an organized group, they wouldn't really get the benefit of Purge hitting everyone - so that would seem to encourage zerging, whereas the current set-up encourages being in an organized group.

Interesting point of view.... that ball groups arent zerging. But solo players working towards a common goal are zerging, which is something that should be discouraged through nerfing their abilities. I dont agree, but its interesting to see how people justify purge being group only.

I am confused why it matters if a solo players purge "hits everyone". I just want a purge that hits anyone. So when I show up to help at a keep being sieged, I can hop on the ram with other small group/solo players and purge the oils that fall on our heads.

Cyrodiil is objective based, so players are constantly close to each other without solo players having to intentionally follow groups around. I find it insulting that you would imply solo players are simply tag along players who dont need to be taken seriously or given tools equal to the ball group "master race".

rfennell_ESO · March 2018

They ought change the set to a lower duration and only versus Direct Damage attacks.

The problem you see with it are mostly because any dot damage (which is going to crit eventually) is setting it off.

If you use any aoe (with a dot component) or put any ground effects down (with a dot component) or any damage ability (with a dot component) or just any old damage over time ability... you will have the debuff up perpetually.

It's also pretty unlikely that all these calculations regarding this one set don't create lag.

VaranisArano · March 2018

badmojo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

It would make a lick of difference to everybody not in your ball group, though. Fair point that it wouldn't compare to what an organized group can do, but it would certainly be better than the big fat nothing it does right now unless each person is carrying it individually.

Nobody is trying to steal your cookies, but it might be nice if there were a few more for everybody else.

That's fair, I was pretty confused as to what the complaint was. As I said, I wouldn't mind being able to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing. Its just that unless someone habitually runs right alongside an organized group, they wouldn't really get the benefit of Purge hitting everyone - so that would seem to encourage zerging, whereas the current set-up encourages being in an organized group.

Interesting point of view.... that ball groups arent zerging. But solo players working towards a common goal are zerging, which is something that should be discouraged through nerfing their abilities. I dont agree, but its interesting to see how people justify purge being group only.

I am confused why it matters if a solo players purge "hits everyone". I just want a purge that hits anyone. So when I show up to help at a keep being sieged, I can hop on the ram with other small group/solo players and purge the oils that fall on our heads.

Cyrodiil is objective based, so players are constantly close to each other without solo players having to intentionally follow groups around. I find it insulting that you would imply solo players are simply tag along players who dont need to be taken seriously or given tools equal to the ball group "master race".

I define a zerg as one or more organized raids + PUGs. Alternatively, a zerg can be a massed of ungrouped players, but I rarely see zergs of purely ungrouped players - there's usually some organized core. See, when Cyrodiil is currently designed for groups of 2 to 24 players and was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, I find it really hard to call a ball group of 24 players a zerg.

So by my definition, a ball group by themselves isn't a zerg. A ball group +PUGs or other ungrouped players is a zerg. Purge only effecting the group encourages grouping. Purge effecting random nearby players encourages sticking close to the ball group, aka zerging. Or it encourages ungrouped players just stay near each other instead of grouping.

I'm not sure that how I think it should be, since I'd also like to be able to Purge other people when I'm solo zerg-sufing, but that's why I'm describing it the way I have been.

Finally, no offense to the way you solo play, but when I solo zerg-surf, I absolutely am a tag-along player to the zerg even as a healer. If I wanted to be leading or driving the zerg and the action, I'd have grouped up with other people (like I do when I'm actually with my organized raid). Given that Cyrodiil is designed currently for groups of 2 to 24 players (says so on the tool-tip, anyway), I'm not terribly bothered by being slightly less effective when I'm solo zerg-surfing. I don't think it'd be a bad change, necessarily, though I'm sure that some group healers would prefer to be healing their group members first instead of wasting Purge on a random player who's not with their group. Maybe a 'smart" Purge that gives priority to group members would be the solution?

Emma_Overload · March 2018

This is one of the very FEW sets that synergize well with mag sorcs. Everybody else has tons of sets that boost armor or healing.

So NO, you can't nerf it! Furthermore, Pirate shoulder set should be UN-nerfed so that sorcs can use it again.

badmojo · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Yet another example of why making purge group only has huge effects on the way battles play out. That organized group doing laps of your keep dont care if they get hit by this debuff since they have a dedicated player constantly purging everything. But any player who tries to throw down an AOE in their path gets hit with it.

Expecting every stamina player to slot purge is stupid game design, especially when they are almost always next to a magicka healer. Those chevrons over players heads are supposed to give organization to groups, not special powers.

So...having healers in my group who slot Purge is giving my group special powers as opposed to a feature of us being organized enough to have healers who slot purge?

Interesting.

Purge is plenty effective on a solo magicka player. Your complaint appears to be that there is no stamina equivalent to purge, rather than that groups are the only people allowed to use Purge (at least, I hope so because Purge is not, in fact, restricted to groups). Unless your complaint is that Purge is only really effective in groups, in which case I remind you that Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. Having healers in the group running Purge when needed is a benefit of being an organized group. It doesn't happen by accident.

Or is your complaint that Purge only effects those in your group? I'm pretty confused about what you are trying to complain about, clearly. I guess that I'd say that Purge could easily be spread out among players in range like any other healing spell, but (A) that's not going to make a lick of difference to a ball group, and (B) Cyrodiil favors organized groups over disorganized zergs, and a disorganized zerg is the only time you'd need to be benefiting from someone's Purge who isn't in your group. I'd love to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing, but I'm not sure that'd make a big difference, nothing compared to using Purge with an organized group.

It would make a lick of difference to everybody not in your ball group, though. Fair point that it wouldn't compare to what an organized group can do, but it would certainly be better than the big fat nothing it does right now unless each person is carrying it individually.

Nobody is trying to steal your cookies, but it might be nice if there were a few more for everybody else.

That's fair, I was pretty confused as to what the complaint was. As I said, I wouldn't mind being able to Purge other players when I'm solo zerg surfing. Its just that unless someone habitually runs right alongside an organized group, they wouldn't really get the benefit of Purge hitting everyone - so that would seem to encourage zerging, whereas the current set-up encourages being in an organized group.

Interesting point of view.... that ball groups arent zerging. But solo players working towards a common goal are zerging, which is something that should be discouraged through nerfing their abilities. I dont agree, but its interesting to see how people justify purge being group only.

I am confused why it matters if a solo players purge "hits everyone". I just want a purge that hits anyone. So when I show up to help at a keep being sieged, I can hop on the ram with other small group/solo players and purge the oils that fall on our heads.

Cyrodiil is objective based, so players are constantly close to each other without solo players having to intentionally follow groups around. I find it insulting that you would imply solo players are simply tag along players who dont need to be taken seriously or given tools equal to the ball group "master race".

I define a zerg as one or more organized raids + PUGs. Alternatively, a zerg can be a massed of ungrouped players, but I rarely see zergs of purely ungrouped players - there's usually some organized core. See, when Cyrodiil is currently designed for groups of 2 to 24 players and was originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, I find it really hard to call a ball group of 24 players a zerg.

So by my definition, a ball group by themselves isn't a zerg. A ball group +PUGs or other ungrouped players is a zerg. Purge only effecting the group encourages grouping. Purge effecting random nearby players encourages sticking close to the ball group, aka zerging. Or it encourages ungrouped players just stay near each other instead of grouping.

I'm not sure that how I think it should be, since I'd also like to be able to Purge other people when I'm solo zerg-sufing, but that's why I'm describing it the way I have been.

Finally, no offense to the way you solo play, but when I solo zerg-surf, I absolutely am a tag-along player to the zerg even as a healer. If I wanted to be leading or driving the zerg and the action, I'd have grouped up with other people (like I do when I'm actually with my organized raid). Given that Cyrodiil is designed currently for groups of 2 to 24 players (says so on the tool-tip, anyway), I'm not terribly bothered by being slightly less effective when I'm solo zerg-surfing. I don't think it'd be a bad change, necessarily, though I'm sure that some group healers would prefer to be healing their group members first instead of wasting Purge on a random player who's not with their group. Maybe a 'smart" Purge that gives priority to group members would be the solution?

Heals encourage sticking close to friendly players. Should heals be made group only to encourage the non-grouped players to group up? What about buffs like spell power cure? Or the purify synergy? Stendarr set? Should those be group only? Why does purge get special treatment?

Smart purge? Yeah that's fine too, but I think the amount of times a non-group member would steal a purge is highly exaggerated. And large groups usually have a person who can literally sit there and purge-heal-purge-heal-purge on a constant rotation, and purge already only purges people who need it, so if a random gets a purge, is that such a huge deal for a large group to deal with?