Many progression guilds advertise they need DPS "> 35K". Good bye sorcs?

Vahrokh · March 2018

It's some days I am looking for a decent (not necessarily top) trials progression guild.
Most of those that are above mediocre, demand DPS > 35K.

Maybe they aren't aware that before Dragon Bones, you'd have basically Youtubers (using cheese parse builds) and end game fully geared, skilled players being able to achieve that.
It was perhaps 1% of the DPS playerbase, considering an abysmally tiny amount of people run veteran+ trials anyway.

Since several months, mag sorcs have received a number of nerfs, and since Dragon Bones, mag sorcs have lost again from 2 to 5k DPS due to off-balance changes.

Basically now Youtubers barely break 36-37k - and they are still using cheese builds nobody can use in trials. What about the others? Whereas I know a LOT of nightblades in my guilds who boast their 44k+ self buffed DPS, I don'tknow A SINGLE sorc spamming anything. The average do 25k even on veteran, the good ones do 30k, the top ones 35k => an handful of them.

Coming to this forum, all you see are NBs showing their 40k DPS peformance asking how to increase it, others who post a video of their 44k+.
And plenty of "I can't get to 25k DPS" sorc threads, with people giving advice about how to scratch 30k. In the last weeks I have found all of 1 (one) guy showing a video of himself doing > 35k DPS.

So, my question is: after Dragon Bones, if you want to join a good progression guild you basically have to shelve your mag sorc and join as "stam something" or a magblade?

Because there are more progression guilds than mag sorcs able to fulfill their minimum DPS requirement.

P.S. I expect this post to get either totally ignored (@ZOS_GinaBruno please prove me wrong) or flamed.

Before you flame, prove me you are real.
Post your Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Turelus · March 2018

As I said in another thread just a moment ago if you're looking to be a serious end game progression player part of that is accepting your favourite class might spend time on the shelf during some patches.

You could also look for guilds which are not so focused on crazy and inflated numbers (or start your own), but if you're trying to be a true end game player who wants to push for things you need to accept sometimes some classes or builds are not up to par with what's best during that patch.

Now imagine how everyone who mains a Warden has felt since their release. I'm also not sure what you want ZOS (Gina) to do about this? It seems your issue is with how the community and a number of guilds handle things, unless you're asking for a Mag Sorc buff (in which case it's Wrobel you want to speak with).

Also I play a MagNB and get 20k DPS average, I lack the player skill for more.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

As I said in another thread just a moment ago if you're looking to be a serious end game progression player part of that is accepting your favourite class might spend time on the shelf during some patches.

You could also look for guilds which are not so focused on crazy and inflated numbers (or start your own), but if you're trying to be a true end game player who wants to push for things you need to accept sometimes some classes or builds are not up to par with what's best during that patch.

Now imagine how everyone who mains a Warden has felt since their release. I'm also not sure what you want ZOS (Gina) to do about this? It seems your issue is with how the community and a number of guilds handle things, unless you're asking for a Mag Sorc buff (in which case it's Wrobel you want to speak with).

Also I play a MagNB and get 20k DPS average, I lack the player skill for more.

I am not searching for an "Hodor quality" guild. I don't have the skill and - most of all - I can only play few hours a day tops.
Now, what you say is allright but you cannot just "shelve" a character and play another, unless you are unemployed or similar.
Gearing up an "incompatible" (gear wise) character, in example, a stamblade takes months, not days.

Heck, after 4 years I still miss 2 pieces of gear for my main, thanks to ESO's "RNG" loot system!

Turelus · March 2018

Try looking for a guild which does progression trials at your level and expectations then, you should also be able to find a guild which can help you gear up by trading you any pieces of gear which drop in dungeons/trials or buy/farm bad trait ones and transmute them.

If you're on PC EU then you could look up the guild Unholy Legacy which had a great friendly community and is working to push better groups/trials teams right now.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Try looking for a guild which does progression trials at your level and expectations then, you should also be able to find a guild which can help you gear up by trading you any pieces of gear which drop in dungeons/trials or buy/farm bad trait ones and transmute them.

If you're on PC EU then you could look up the guild Unholy Legacy which had a great friendly community and is working to push better groups/trials teams right now.

I am looking for a guild that does not demand people to join after they don't even need gear any more. What's the point? I've looked so much for a guild where one can get somebody else to help them get "perfect" in their performance and so on. So far I've only found "relaxed guilds" with people who - despite their best intentions - are not better than me enough to teach me how to improve further. Or I've found guilds that just put a big "lock" and keep all but "special snowflakes" out.

If the guild you state can do what I'd like... how do I get in contact with them?

Marabornwingrion · March 2018

You can pull 40k on any class, just need good build and practice your skill.

TelvanniWizard · March 2018

We all know what is really needed to bring back the tamrielic equilibrium: Buff sorcs! Let´s make sorcs great again!

Turelus · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Try looking for a guild which does progression trials at your level and expectations then, you should also be able to find a guild which can help you gear up by trading you any pieces of gear which drop in dungeons/trials or buy/farm bad trait ones and transmute them.

If you're on PC EU then you could look up the guild Unholy Legacy which had a great friendly community and is working to push better groups/trials teams right now.

I am looking for a guild that does not demand people to join after they don't even need gear any more. What's the point? I've looked so much for a guild where one can get somebody else to help them get "perfect" in their performance and so on. So far I've only found "relaxed guilds" with people who - despite their best intentions - are not better than me enough to teach me how to improve further. Or I've found guilds that just put a big "lock" and keep all but "special snowflakes" out.

If the guild you state can do what I'd like... how do I get in contact with them?

You can look for Unholy Legacy ESO in Google (or these forums search) and it should hit up a result, you can also send a PM to @Flaminir who is the GM.
Might be worth having a chat with Flaminir first to see if this is the guild for you and both sides would be happy with the match, but there should be a guild out there that works for you. If not you can always try building one around you beliefs and get similar minded people to join in.

Masel · March 2018

Together with a friend, I lead a trial guild on PC EU and to be fair, doing 40k on a 3 million dummy doesn't mean anything other than farming for a lucky parse with crit luck and ignoring sustain completely. I never take these as examples and do not accept applications that only include these because they are simply not saying anything about sustainable damage in a real trial scenario.

I for myself struggle to get good numbers on my sorcerer too, because their sustainable dps is lower than a magblades for example, due to the limited usefulness of off-balance. The second reason why magblades are so much better than the others is obviously minor berserk and a cheap spammable that is fully ranged.

The other classes' spammables are at least 40% more expensive, without any reason. Sorcerers have to use force pulse or heavy attacks. Heavy attacks took a large hit, and in order to sustain force pulse, you have to invest so much into regen that it'd be better to just use a magblade. Sorcs were important to have prior to dragon bones because they enabled minor vulnerability and off-balance passively.

On top of that, magblades have a skill that gives them at leat 200 magicka per second, up to 300 with good weaving. Sorcs have cost reduction. But nothing else that lets them sustain better than other classes. No-one uses dark conversion in a raid.

Also, think about the enchantments that many players use on their characters: most use shock or fire to get a bigger uptime in status effects by themselves, inflating the parses, especially on magblades. You'll see higher parses on magblades, but the ceiling they can reach is not that far off from where Sorcs can get. Sorcs have the issue that they rely too much on pets nowadays, and these are simply impractical in a lot of the new content they design. They get stunned permanently in HoF and get the storm of heavens in vAS, making them a burden on the group in many scenarios.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

You can pull 40k on any class, just need good build and practice your skill.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Before you flame, prove me you are real.
Post your Dragon Bones, non cheese, non Lover stone 40K DPS video on your sorc and then come school me.

Quoting, because being credible matters.

I know on an handful Youtube and have seen (one) on this forum, who can somehow (usually, cheesing) achieve that. I don't recall you.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Try looking for a guild which does progression trials at your level and expectations then, you should also be able to find a guild which can help you gear up by trading you any pieces of gear which drop in dungeons/trials or buy/farm bad trait ones and transmute them.

If you're on PC EU then you could look up the guild Unholy Legacy which had a great friendly community and is working to push better groups/trials teams right now.

I am looking for a guild that does not demand people to join after they don't even need gear any more. What's the point? I've looked so much for a guild where one can get somebody else to help them get "perfect" in their performance and so on. So far I've only found "relaxed guilds" with people who - despite their best intentions - are not better than me enough to teach me how to improve further. Or I've found guilds that just put a big "lock" and keep all but "special snowflakes" out.

If the guild you state can do what I'd like... how do I get in contact with them?

You can look for Unholy Legacy ESO in Google (or these forums search) and it should hit up a result, you can also send a PM to @Flaminir who is the GM.
Might be worth having a chat with Flaminir first to see if this is the guild for you and both sides would be happy with the match, but there should be a guild out there that works for you. If not you can always try building one around you beliefs and get similar minded people to join in.

Thank you!
I've been a guild master in other MMOs. It can be really though and time intensive. I know with my current IRL committments I would not be able to achieve a minimum of quality and achievements in ESO.

Sixty5 · March 2018

Any guild I have been a part of has only had a dps requirement of 25k self buffed to get into vet trials. Though those were just the Craglorn ones.

Other trials you are going to need more dps, but that's progression.

Emma_Overload · March 2018

My guild only requires 25K to do trials, so I know there are mellow guilds out there. It is also possible to make a Sorc dps that doesn't depend on off-balance or dots at all. I made a direct damage build based on Torugs, Slimecraw and Netch (on backbar for AOE) that does 27K-30K reliably, even if the tank sucks and the boss runs all over the place.

Illurian · March 2018

I don't think that that many guilds require 35k+ dps to join trials. I'm a healer main, so I might have skewed experiences, but I'm in 3 trials guilds on PC EU myself and all of my dps characters (4 of them) barely pull 33k self buffed.

There are many other guilds that run training runs for vet trials and don't have such stringent dps requirements.

Although, on the other hand, I feel that 35k+ dps is not too small a goal post to aim for. While I'm sure it's entirely possible (I'm not a pro player) for sorcs to hit 40k+ dps self buffed, I'm only pulling about 32k - 33k on both my stamsorc and magsorc self buffed. Neither of my sorcs are fully optimized, so even for my skill level I'd expect to hit close to 35k - 36k when I finally optimize them.

You say that you don't have too much time to play - perhaps it would be better if you joined a guild that ran more training runs than leader board runs. While you would still need decent dps (I'd say at least ~25k+) to have a chance to complete some vet trials, the difference between 25k and 35k dps is huge in terms of rotation smoothness.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

The difference between a 30k and a 35k parse is proper weaving and timing but the difference between 35k and 40k is proper gear. I'm not a mag dps main myself so I can't speak exactly to magsorc but I know our magsorcs pull more then 35k, it's closer to 38k or 40k. Additionally even tho sorc dps is lower then magblade they're still good for helping keep high uptimes with alkosh. There real issue with dps in this game is that a vast majority of guilds think they know what is best in slot but that information is what is provided by guilds getting the highest scores, and they keep the real bis setups for themselves.

Runefang · March 2018

35k+ DPS is a pretty fair mark for vMoL/vAS HM and vHoF. You definitely don't need that for vAA/HRC/SO though, 25k will do there.

It's frustrating for me since the only class I hit 35k+ on is my Pet Sorc and they're just bad in too many boss fights so qualifying for the core trial group with a Pet Sorc is stupid. I can still hit 35k+ DPS on my pet Sorc by the way, even in Dragon Bones.

Without any sort of cheese I hit 33-34k on all my other characters so it's not much of a stretch to be hitting 35k with more practice. If I cheesed with Zaan, Lover, Ghastly Eye Bowl etc then who knows

Alcast · March 2018

@andy_s

andy_s · March 2018

learn2cheese issue

https://youtu.be/GeZJwfERsbg

Vahrokh · March 2018

Glad to see @Alcast and @andy_s, you are exactly those I was thinking about, when I wrote:

"... and end game fully geared, skilled players being able to achieve that.
It was perhaps 1% of the DPS playerbase"

Even then, it's quite telling, how mighty Andy (possibly one of the best players in the world) is parsing around the same DPS that random unknown NBs are posting on these forums.

Anyway, congrats on seemingly 100% curse uptime, I've never been able to go above 89%.

cooper16 · March 2018

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

Illurian · March 2018

cooper16 wrote: »

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

A video on your rotation would probably be the most efficient way to help.

Vahrokh · March 2018

cooper16 wrote: »

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

Look at the video above, at 0.25% speed. Learn each photogram. Then repeat it. Even then, you'll never get to his numbers, exaclty for the same reason 99.999% humanity cannot run faster than Usain Bolt.

exiars10 · March 2018

This night I saw ad in zone chat in Grahtwood that some guild with 200+ members seeks for the new members andwith special notice that if you are DD, you need to do at least 35+k DPS.

Wow. They exist.

Draxys · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

cooper16 wrote: »

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

Look at the video above, at 0.25% speed. Learn each photogram. Then repeat it. Even then, you'll never get to his numbers, exaclty for the same reason 99.999% humanity cannot run faster than Usain Bolt.

Dude. It’s a computer game. There’s a solid chance anyone can achieve this level of button mashing, unlike humanity trying to match Usain.

Princess_Ciri · March 2018

40k is doable on any class, even the ultra potato magicka warden. Ofc it requires the player to be capable of pressing buttons in the correct order and clicking when they should.

datgladiatah · March 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Together with a friend, I lead a trial guild on PC EU and to be fair, doing 40k on a 3 million dummy doesn't mean anything other than farming for a lucky parse with crit luck and ignoring sustain completely. I never take these as examples and do not accept applications that only include these because they are simply not saying anything about sustainable damage in a real trial scenario.

I for myself struggle to get good numbers on my sorcerer too, because their sustainable dps is lower than a magblades for example, due to the limited usefulness of off-balance. The second reason why magblades are so much better than the others is obviously minor berserk and a cheap spammable that is fully ranged.

The other classes' spammables are at least 40% more expensive, without any reason. Sorcerers have to use force pulse or heavy attacks. Heavy attacks took a large hit, and in order to sustain force pulse, you have to invest so much into regen that it'd be better to just use a magblade. Sorcs were important to have prior to dragon bones because they enabled minor vulnerability and off-balance passively.

On top of that, magblades have a skill that gives them at leat 200 magicka per second, up to 300 with good weaving. Sorcs have cost reduction. But nothing else that lets them sustain better than other classes. No-one uses dark conversion in a raid.

Also, think about the enchantments that many players use on their characters: most use shock or fire to get a bigger uptime in status effects by themselves, inflating the parses, especially on magblades. You'll see higher parses on magblades, but the ceiling they can reach is not that far off from where Sorcs can get. Sorcs have the issue that they rely too much on pets nowadays, and these are simply impractical in a lot of the new content they design. They get stunned permanently in HoF and get the storm of heavens in vAS, making them a burden on the group in many scenarios.

I don't think it's really fair to point out things that the MagNB has had since 1.6 as reasons they're doing so well. Their spammable cost was just increased a few patches ago and a good raid group always gives a decent uptime on combat prayer. And siphoning attacks was nerfed to its current form in terms of sustain, and even when it was MUCH better, with all of this added up, their DPS has never been as good as it is now. It's 100% based on Mechanical Acuity/Master Architect. There's no reason to nerf or look into other things this class has because that's not what's making them good, because just a patch ago they were just below the magsorc. Look into the sets that's making them reach 50k+ with ease. Their synergy with it is objectively better than with most classes due to crit damage and their cheap damage amp ultimate.

Runefang · March 2018

cooper16 wrote: »

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

It's 100% just rotation.

LA > Blockade > LA > Liquid Lightning > BS
HA > Scamp > HA > Curse > LA > Clench > BS
Repeat

It should take you ~8 seconds to do. The quicker you're doing it while still hitting all of your heavy and light attacks the better your dps.

Don't forget the things people do to help their dummy parses:

Potions that provide Major Sorcerery, Prophecy and Intellect. They should have 100% up time (you need the Alchemy passive).
Drop an ultimate right at the start of the fight.
Use Inner Light prior to dropping your ultimate to Empower it
Activate your pet ability prior to dropping your ultimate
Elemental Suspectibility on a Pet Sorc is fantastic since regen isn't a problem. For the best effect cast it from your back bar and then replace with Inner Light before starting combat, this is cheesing your parse though
Lover Mundus is considering cheesing but it will help your parse a bit
Depending on your ulti and if I have a Fire staff you can fully charge a heavy attack to start the fight. It will work with the Storm Atro (cast him off to the side so he doesn't start combat) or Shooting Star (since it will take ~2 seconds to arrive giving you time to charge the heavy)

There are loads of little things people do to make their parse look good. You've got to take a lot of them with a grain of salt.

ccfeeling · March 2018

Good connection , right build , practices are key factors .

35k is the bottom line if your guild wanna go deeper in PVE content . 30k is also OK if you guys have good teamwork ...

No change even off balance nerfed .

Vahrokh · March 2018

cooper16 wrote: »

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

Look at the video above, at 0.25% speed. Learn each photogram. Then repeat it. Even then, you'll never get to his numbers, exaclty for the same reason 99.999% humanity cannot run faster than Usain Bolt.

exiars10 wrote: »

This night I saw ad in zone chat in Grahtwood that some guild with 200+ members seeks for the new members andwith special notice that if you are DD, you need to do at least 35+k DPS.

Wow. They exist.

Well, now NBs have raised the bar, it becomes "natural" for guilds to demand higher DPS from new members.

Vahrokh · March 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Good connection , right build , practices are key factors .

35k is the bottom line if your guild wanna go deeper in PVE content . 30k is also OK if you guys have good teamwork ...

No change even off balance nerfed .

Ok, could you please post your video to show us how it's done?

Vahrokh · March 2018

Draxys wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

cooper16 wrote: »

Throw me a bone. How can I get my pet sorc 25k to 35k? Have BIS armour and VMA staff. Are there tips on what I am likely not doing correctly?

Look at the video above, at 0.25% speed. Learn each photogram. Then repeat it. Even then, you'll never get to his numbers, exaclty for the same reason 99.999% humanity cannot run faster than Usain Bolt.

Dude. It’s a computer game. There’s a solid chance anyone can achieve this level of button mashing, unlike humanity trying to match Usain.

So, you have a magsorc to show us how it's done?