ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Two ticks deals about 3k to me in noCP. About the same as viper. Then slap a 18cd on it.

The one place I have come across that I can't react straight away when Zaan'd is when being feared, because of fears dodgy 2 step animation, before you can break free.

Do you actually listen to what you are saying? Cause it seems like you dont.

In one of the best case scenarios you take as much dmg as viper. Viper was OP, Zaan is balanced. Wut?

Now its the cd of viper that was the issue and not that it was doing free dmg? Are you seriously telling me that the issue with procs is their cd and not what they actually do? So earthgore is balanced according to you cause it has a 35sec cd.

And 18sec cd? You do realise that you are talking about best case scenario right? 2 ticks are not the potential dmg of the set. You take 1 more tick and now you have 2 viper procs. Take the full dmg and you have 5+ viper procs.

You keep mentioning tho things like "these classes dont have easy counterplay" or "the one place i cant react straight away" and yet you keep considering the set balanced. You are literally explaining cases where the set is OP and you conclude that the set is balanced. So again, according to you earthgore is balanced because its not OP in every possible scenario.

Putting on a 2 piece set, you sacrifice a lot but putting on a 5 piece set you dont sacrifice anything? Ok, makes sense.

I am going to take a second to laugh at bolded. Not even best case. Best case would be that since its a rng proc I see it and purge, cloak, streak. mist etc. And yeah, 4k damage, tragic. But saying its the same as viper isn't true. You even go on to say how it isn't.

Earthgore is unbalanced in nearly every scenario, not just because of the big heal, because for the final time. It has no counters. If I could interrupt earthgore, It'd be balanced. You take one point and beat it to death jesus christ.

TL;DR: Viper to Zaan are so apples to oranges in many ways. Counters+Limits (Slots, High CD, ST, etc) = balance. Viper had low limits, (4s, melee damage, 5pc so can be 1 bar, and used with other sets) and low counters, as such it was OP.

Explaination:

Zaans 2 ticks. Which I will only take fully when CCd. Deals the same as viper. Viper deals it instantly, without counter. (Other than don't get hit of course) Every 4s. Now, you must be smart enough to realize that is a massive difference. If you do somehow take the full 5s zaan proc. Then you are doing something wrong.* It may be 5 vipers, but it is like sitting and taking 2 snipes, (Less counters, and high near spammable damage, and a 41m range) and complaining, oh, why am I taking damage?

The monster slot deal is a large part too. For the most part 5pc sets in this game are honestly a bit dull, and can be worn in differing orientations. So when you get something that allows you change up your gameplay a lot then many people take it.
Monster sets have many unique effects at the cost of being a set two slots., they provide unique effects comparable to a 5pc set. Bloodspawn, valkyn, troll king, of course earthgore, are forgone for it.

If you want to say, oh, not every class has a counter, well then, change that. Don't nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Ye no point to go over it all again. You are cherry picking arguments to prove ur point. This thing is OP because of that but this one is not OP because of the same reason. And yes obviously Earthgore is very OP in a 1v1 and in 1vX. It has a whooping 8% uptime. And you dont sacrifice anything for it. Not like Zaan where you actually sacrifice a monster set.

Im laughing too tho. Cause defending potential 30k+ death recaps by a 2 piece set and saying you sacrifice a lot is just for laughs.

But its ok now i understand where you are coming from. The issue is that Zaan is not a 5 piece. Yeah ZOS, why u do this to me. Why do you make me sacrifice my procs with unique effects to use other procs. Its not fair. Make Zaan a 5 piece set, then buff flame blossom too so i can use all 3 of them and fulfill my dream of one shotting people with my proc skills. Stamina builds had their proc meta so a magicka proc meta would only make things balanced.

8% up time, but a near total fight reset. Even in 1v1. A 1vX is a little different, but I have seen people use it on more slippery builds. Zaan is trash on a 1vX.

You seem to be angry now that I disproved you silly comparisons. I don't know who you are oneshotting with zaan. That 20% proc rate really kills me in one hit, wowee. If you do want a proc I think is imbalanced, look at caluurion. Melee magblade buffs and hits you with concealed, then harvest/incap (noCP) and caluurion hits you the next second for around 7k. Its pretty strong on my MDK too, but not my style.

Key word. Potential. If you l2p then the its a wasted set on the enemy.

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Blobs is running 5 wizards 5 lich and 2 Zaan on his mageblade in BGs. He's been very successful at killing people with Zaan procs while using a defensive set and recovery set.

Wouldn't call it "hot garbage"

Vermintide wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Shadow image is fixed and you’re building around a 5 second burst window, I don’t think the defensive set is needed

I think the fundamental mistake people are making is thinking of Zaan as burst, when it's not. It's a dot, which has to stay up fully to do the most damage; it's pressure. It forces an opponent to waste resources either spamming healing or trying to get out of the radius. That leaves them vulnerable.

I mean sure I've had cheesy lucky kills with it but most wouldn't have happened if I just stood there and let the proc do it. It always still needs a will/incap/CC etc to secure the kill.

Either way, I can't agree with the line of thought that image/fear make Riposte redundant on a magblade. In my opinion it's the best set you can have on one. That's just a difference in preference I guess.

Vermintide wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I’m saying on a mageblade built solely around zaan(or zaan+Caluurion) kills that no defensive set is required because proc sets don’t scale on max stat damage. This means he can instead of running wizards just run 30k health and spinners, have higher proc based damage and similar survival. The shadow image being fixed comment has nothing to do with its source of minor maim that’s useless outside of 1v1s, it’s more about the fact that you can now kite to your full potential and therefore you get “mitigation” by just not being focused.

I agree that defensive sets are strong on mageblade. But if you’re building around zaan there’s no penalty for pushing 30k health as a defensive mechanic instead of relying on wizards. Furthermore, I’d argue that the trap morph of fear is a superior choice for this setup and since it applies maim to 5 targets per trap you would see dimishing returns moreso than on a typical mageblade build.

Well that's fair enough, I can't fault your reasoning.

I mean my overall point is that relying on proc damage is going to be a very bad way to put together a build regardless, especially with a set like Zaan. It's only useful if you can trap your foe inside your 10m cheese radius, so you still need to play like a regular magblade at all other times. This is why we've had people saying they're just gonna stick to Skoria.

TL;DR no way *** wizards riposte on every build forever

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I’m saying on a mageblade built solely around zaan(or zaan+Caluurion) kills that no defensive set is required because proc sets don’t scale on max stat damage. This means he can instead of running wizards just run 30k health and spinners, have higher proc based damage and similar survival. The shadow image being fixed comment has nothing to do with its source of minor maim that’s useless outside of 1v1s, it’s more about the fact that you can now kite to your full potential and therefore you get “mitigation” by just not being focused.

I agree that defensive sets are strong on mageblade. But if you’re building around zaan there’s no penalty for pushing 30k health as a defensive mechanic instead of relying on wizards. Furthermore, I’d argue that the trap morph of fear is a superior choice for this setup and since it applies maim to 5 targets per trap you would see dimishing returns moreso than on a typical mageblade build.

Well that's fair enough, I can't fault your reasoning.

I mean my overall point is that relying on proc damage is going to be a very bad way to put together a build regardless, especially with a set like Zaan. It's only useful if you can trap your foe inside your 10m cheese radius, so you still need to play like a regular magblade at all other times. This is why we've had people saying they're just gonna stick to Skoria.

TL;DR no way *** wizards riposte on every build forever

I think that there’s 2 schools of thought.

You build a complete build and use the proc set for added Burt/pressure(Skoria/groth/Selene ).

You build around the proc set as your main killing power(zaan, old viper, old red mountain).

I don’t think the second choice should ever be viable. A damage proc should never be strong enough that it can be relied on as your main source of killing potential, but zaan, like those old sets is capable of providing exactly that.

I guarantee if someone tries using zaan as their only kill potential in OW, they will be severely saddened.

One thing I agree with is that the set is awfully designed, as are many proc sets. They are intended to change playstyles and combat, functioning as an active passive, but RNG and this lazy "procs" give a potential to kill without skill involved, despite counterplay. That translates to a real hit or miss set.

I don't think it is imbalanced at all for what it does, and ZOS offered many decent counters,* I just think its poorly designed and doesn't add enough to combat. If it rewards you for staying close to one enemy, it should proc that way. Like X melee attacks in a row.

*Inb4 soul assault comparisons. That was death for nearly all builds bar NB since it had low counterplay.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I’m saying on a mageblade built solely around zaan(or zaan+Caluurion) kills that no defensive set is required because proc sets don’t scale on max stat damage. This means he can instead of running wizards just run 30k health and spinners, have higher proc based damage and similar survival. The shadow image being fixed comment has nothing to do with its source of minor maim that’s useless outside of 1v1s, it’s more about the fact that you can now kite to your full potential and therefore you get “mitigation” by just not being focused.

I agree that defensive sets are strong on mageblade. But if you’re building around zaan there’s no penalty for pushing 30k health as a defensive mechanic instead of relying on wizards. Furthermore, I’d argue that the trap morph of fear is a superior choice for this setup and since it applies maim to 5 targets per trap you would see dimishing returns moreso than on a typical mageblade build.

Well that's fair enough, I can't fault your reasoning.

I mean my overall point is that relying on proc damage is going to be a very bad way to put together a build regardless, especially with a set like Zaan. It's only useful if you can trap your foe inside your 10m cheese radius, so you still need to play like a regular magblade at all other times. This is why we've had people saying they're just gonna stick to Skoria.

TL;DR no way *** wizards riposte on every build forever

I think that there’s 2 schools of thought.

You build a complete build and use the proc set for added Burt/pressure(Skoria/groth/Selene ).

You build around the proc set as your main killing power(zaan, old viper, old red mountain).

I don’t think the second choice should ever be viable. A damage proc should never be strong enough that it can be relied on as your main source of killing potential, but zaan, like those old sets is capable of providing exactly that.

I guarantee if someone tries using zaan as their only kill potential in OW, they will be severely saddened.

One thing I agree with is that the set is awfully designed, as are many proc sets. They are intended to change playstyles and combat, functioning as an active passive, but RNG and this lazy "procs" give a potential to kill without skill involved, despite counterplay. That translates to a real hit or miss set.

I don't think it is imbalanced at all for what it does, and ZOS offered many decent counters,* I just think its poorly designed and doesn't add enough to combat. If it rewards you for staying close to one enemy, it should proc that way. Like X melee attacks in a row.

*Inb4 soul assault comparisons. That was death for nearly all builds bar NB since it had low counterplay.

In your mind is it ok that zaan, even open world, offers 100% area denial against a single opponent?

Wat.

100% area denial. For a normal build 5s max up, 12s+ down. So no. Not a 100% area denial. You break it, in whatever way you choose and its even less. Your dots will tick, a ranged build can keep damage.

This is a little asspully of an excuse. Because its not true. Also, look to blessed. It can be onebarred and kills single builds. It has little counter, (IIRC it can be purged) and has a 50%ish uptime.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I’m saying on a mageblade built solely around zaan(or zaan+Caluurion) kills that no defensive set is required because proc sets don’t scale on max stat damage. This means he can instead of running wizards just run 30k health and spinners, have higher proc based damage and similar survival. The shadow image being fixed comment has nothing to do with its source of minor maim that’s useless outside of 1v1s, it’s more about the fact that you can now kite to your full potential and therefore you get “mitigation” by just not being focused.

I agree that defensive sets are strong on mageblade. But if you’re building around zaan there’s no penalty for pushing 30k health as a defensive mechanic instead of relying on wizards. Furthermore, I’d argue that the trap morph of fear is a superior choice for this setup and since it applies maim to 5 targets per trap you would see dimishing returns moreso than on a typical mageblade build.

Well that's fair enough, I can't fault your reasoning.

I mean my overall point is that relying on proc damage is going to be a very bad way to put together a build regardless, especially with a set like Zaan. It's only useful if you can trap your foe inside your 10m cheese radius, so you still need to play like a regular magblade at all other times. This is why we've had people saying they're just gonna stick to Skoria.

TL;DR no way *** wizards riposte on every build forever

I think that there’s 2 schools of thought.

You build a complete build and use the proc set for added Burt/pressure(Skoria/groth/Selene ).

You build around the proc set as your main killing power(zaan, old viper, old red mountain).

I don’t think the second choice should ever be viable. A damage proc should never be strong enough that it can be relied on as your main source of killing potential, but zaan, like those old sets is capable of providing exactly that.

I guarantee if someone tries using zaan as their only kill potential in OW, they will be severely saddened.

One thing I agree with is that the set is awfully designed, as are many proc sets. They are intended to change playstyles and combat, functioning as an active passive, but RNG and this lazy "procs" give a potential to kill without skill involved, despite counterplay. That translates to a real hit or miss set.

I don't think it is imbalanced at all for what it does, and ZOS offered many decent counters,* I just think its poorly designed and doesn't add enough to combat. If it rewards you for staying close to one enemy, it should proc that way. Like X melee attacks in a row.

*Inb4 soul assault comparisons. That was death for nearly all builds bar NB since it had low counterplay.

In your mind is it ok that zaan, even open world, offers 100% area denial against a single opponent?

Wat.

100% area denial. For a normal build 5s max up, 12s+ down. So no. Not a 100% area denial. You break it, in whatever way you choose and its even less. Your dots will tick, a ranged build can keep damage.

This is a little asspully of an excuse. Because its not true. Also, look to blessed. It can be onebarred and kills single builds. It has little counter, (IIRC it can be purged) and has a 50%ish uptime.

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. When zaan procs on you then you must leave the area or die. The uptime is irrelevant because you build to accommodate the times when the proc isn’t present.

You’re ignoring my question and instead ranting about some straw man you constructed. I think it’s time to call it on this thread

But no, you don’t have to leave the area. Although, it would help in ending the proc sooner rather than later. I’ve encountered both magicka and stamina builds alike who have been able to stay right in front of me with Zaan going off just fine. As they were able to heal through it. Nightblades, Wardens, Dragonknights, etc. All able to withstand the damage, and simply heal through it. Magicka or stamina based. Notice by the way the way that I intentionally left out Sorcerers and Templars, as to them it is as if I’m not even wearing Zaan. But, I’m sure you get the point.

zParallaxz wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I’m saying on a mageblade built solely around zaan(or zaan+Caluurion) kills that no defensive set is required because proc sets don’t scale on max stat damage. This means he can instead of running wizards just run 30k health and spinners, have higher proc based damage and similar survival. The shadow image being fixed comment has nothing to do with its source of minor maim that’s useless outside of 1v1s, it’s more about the fact that you can now kite to your full potential and therefore you get “mitigation” by just not being focused.

I agree that defensive sets are strong on mageblade. But if you’re building around zaan there’s no penalty for pushing 30k health as a defensive mechanic instead of relying on wizards. Furthermore, I’d argue that the trap morph of fear is a superior choice for this setup and since it applies maim to 5 targets per trap you would see dimishing returns moreso than on a typical mageblade build.

Well that's fair enough, I can't fault your reasoning.

I mean my overall point is that relying on proc damage is going to be a very bad way to put together a build regardless, especially with a set like Zaan. It's only useful if you can trap your foe inside your 10m cheese radius, so you still need to play like a regular magblade at all other times. This is why we've had people saying they're just gonna stick to Skoria.

TL;DR no way *** wizards riposte on every build forever

I think that there’s 2 schools of thought.

You build a complete build and use the proc set for added Burt/pressure(Skoria/groth/Selene ).

You build around the proc set as your main killing power(zaan, old viper, old red mountain).

I don’t think the second choice should ever be viable. A damage proc should never be strong enough that it can be relied on as your main source of killing potential, but zaan, like those old sets is capable of providing exactly that.

I guarantee if someone tries using zaan as their only kill potential in OW, they will be severely saddened.

One thing I agree with is that the set is awfully designed, as are many proc sets. They are intended to change playstyles and combat, functioning as an active passive, but RNG and this lazy "procs" give a potential to kill without skill involved, despite counterplay. That translates to a real hit or miss set.

I don't think it is imbalanced at all for what it does, and ZOS offered many decent counters,* I just think its poorly designed and doesn't add enough to combat. If it rewards you for staying close to one enemy, it should proc that way. Like X melee attacks in a row.

*Inb4 soul assault comparisons. That was death for nearly all builds bar NB since it had low counterplay.

In your mind is it ok that zaan, even open world, offers 100% area denial against a single opponent?

Wat.

100% area denial. For a normal build 5s max up, 12s+ down. So no. Not a 100% area denial. You break it, in whatever way you choose and its even less. Your dots will tick, a ranged build can keep damage.

This is a little asspully of an excuse. Because its not true. Also, look to blessed. It can be onebarred and kills single builds. It has little counter, (IIRC it can be purged) and has a 50%ish uptime.

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. When zaan procs on you then you must leave the area or die. The uptime is irrelevant because you build to accommodate the times when the proc isn’t present.

You’re ignoring my question and instead ranting about some straw man you constructed. I think it’s time to call it on this thread

But no, you don’t have to leave the area. Although, it would help in ending the proc sooner rather than later. I’ve encountered both magicka and stamina builds alike who have been able to stay right in front of me with Zaan going off just fine. As they were able to heal through it. Nightblades, Wardens, Dragonknights, etc. All able to withstand the damage, and simply heal through it. Magicka or stamina based. Notice by the way the way that I intentionally left out Sorcerers and Templars, as to them it is as if I’m not even wearing Zaan. But, I’m sure you get the point.

Because you’re not built to maximize zaan. You have about 0 other damage and no buffs that effect its tooltip OR increase your penetration. Of course it doesn’t perform to lethal levels for you.

Try zaan on a mageblade that’s got access to enough stacking damage buffs and penetration to really push the zaan proc damage.

Lol I can tell u don’t play dk. Dark elf magdks can buff Zaan far more than a magblade.