TequilaFire wrote: »

I don't care if a PvEr doesn't want to PvP that's their business.
But lowering of the ranks required for vigor, clatrops, etc. is one example where PvP got nerfed for PvE.
Used to be your reward for reaching higher PvP ranks were these skills. They took them away from the higher ranks without replacing with anything other than cosmetic items.

PVP didn't get nerfed, just the number of helpless PVEers you could farm got nerfed.

ZOS designed the game so that if you want the rewards that come with experiencing 100% of the base game, you have to actually experience 100% on the base game. That includes Cyrodiil.

You want Master Angler? You have to fish in Cyrodiil.
You want Skyshard Hunter? You have to hunt in Cyrodiil AND get through four enemy gates requiring actual PVP on the part on your faction members to open the gates.
You want 100% of the dolmens? Welcome to Cyrodiil.
You want 100% of the base game quests? Welcome to Cyrodiil.

And then there's the stuff that players convince themselves they need. You need Caltrops? Welcome to PVP, the only place in the game where you will ever actually use mounted combat. You want Vigor? Welcome to PVP, the only place besides Maelstrom Arena where a stamina player can expect to be without a magicka healer. You want Warhorn for your 12-man trial team? Welcome to PVP, where we buff groups of 24. Those skills make sense in PVP - and ZOS is in no rush to change something that gets PVEers into PVP.

ZOS designed this game purposefully to get PVE players into PVP and to get PVP players into PVE. Having your playerbase experience all that the game has to offer is good game design and certainly encourages community understanding of different playstyles.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Caltrops, Vigor, and Warhorn are all PVP skills first and foremost that PVEers decided were essential to doing content. ZOS is delighted that PVEers "force" themselves into PVP in order to follow the meta.

Thats great for adding cannon fodder to the battlefield, but ultimately unhealthy for pvp and for the game in general, in my opinion. I believe PvP should be fun enough to do for its own sake. If you have to bribe players to partake, it speaks very negatively of that activity.

Nihility42 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

PVP should be optional IMO, the drive for making it more and more required is just wrong, you'll just be inviting angry PVEers that don't want to be there.

The comparing PVP to PVE on how required it is is also silly, PVP is HARD as stated by many people here, everyday there's a PVPer bragging about how hard PVP is vs PVE and it's sadly true. If PVE is so easy, then that's what should be required over PVP.

PVP is hard enough that may players can't do it, not a matter of getting better, but some literally can't do it for various reasons. Meanwhile PVE has a limit, it can be hard but not super hard and just about anyone can do it.

PVE = a annoying timesink and grind for PVP players
PVP = a likely impossible hurdle that some will never pass due to the high ceiling.

But dumbing PVP down is not the answer, the answer is make it fun, not required. Making the rewards great is not a good option because then everyone will be pressured to do something they can't

It's hard to be good at PVP. It isn't hard to level up your alliance skills or get AP. Want to be 1vX master? Yeah, that'll take a lot of skill and practice and a great build. Just want to get some rewards and stuff? You literally can do that on a naked character by following a zerg around and repairing stuff.

Right now, but people complain about wanting to change that, that's also not counting Tel Var which you can't do with a naked character and are often forced into PVP or your hard work is stolen

Hurtfan wrote: »

Keep the gold vendor up all week and maybe change the rewards available 2x a week.

the gold vender is don't like its all luck it worse rng then trying to get your shoulder from the chest

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

Keep the gold vendor up all week and maybe change the rewards available 2x a week.

the gold vender is don't like its all luck it worse rng then trying to get your shoulder from the chest

agreed... however, my idea here is for a player like me who doesn't PvE that much, maybe this is a way to get gear vs. running dungeons/trials

Edit: get some of the gear for a set you want, you still need to run stuff to get the complete set since necks, rings, and monster set stuff only is sold at the gold vendor

Ideas..

Gain + 35 stam / magic or health for each of the 50 pvp levels max would be 1750 and all points go into one of those three.

Unique mount at level 35, 45 and 50 (or just 50)

Increase exp gained in cyrodiil

Slight increase in ap gained

Increase ap from defense of keep / resource

Shorten defense ap drop timer

Add random world bosses drop weapons/armor/motifs

Would love Alliance lock and yes I’ve seen the debates for/against but still think it would be a good thing

Nihility42 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Caltrops, Vigor, and Warhorn are all PVP skills first and foremost that PVEers decided were essential to doing content. ZOS is delighted that PVEers "force" themselves into PVP in order to follow the meta.

Thats great for adding cannon fodder to the battlefield, but ultimately unhealthy for pvp and for the game in general, in my opinion. I believe PvP should be fun enough to do for its own sake. If you have to bribe players to partake, it speaks very negatively of that activity.

As a counterpoint, I hated PVP when I started. Thought it was a waste of time, horse riding sim, etc. I was there only to get caltrops and vigor. And now here I am a couple months later and I haven't even run a dungeon in a couple weeks because all I do is PVP. Sometimes people just need a taste of it to find out they like it.

This is true. I've a couple of friends who quite enjoy it after not wanting to PvP. My "tastes" weren't conducive to my wanting to stick around. From the UO PKs right on through to ESO. I give each "version" a try and the one I preferred was DAoC. I haven't been vertical long enough in ESO PVP to really decide (but hey, I've gotten to read a lot from those "here's what you should do" screens. but with such a high gankage factor, I'm not really in a hurry to do so.

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

i think there are a lot of incentives to do pvp as a pve player...which always annoys me cause i don't care about pvp and don't want to be forced...

there are the skills that are "essential" for pve (caultrops, vigor, warhorn etc.)
there are the transmute crystals
the alliance points and the rewards you get from them
there are the pvp motifs

if you want more rewards fine - but dont make pve players do pvp just for pve related necessities

This is what I was saying in another thread except reversed. If you want a particular monster helm for a pvp build youre working on, then you got to go into a vet dungeon to get it because they make it BoP.
Yeah sure we're not literally being forced... but it kind of sucks to have to miss something that may be BiS for a build.

Which now you guys have 'The Golden' selling helms and shoulders.

Motherball wrote: »

"Nihility42 wrote: »

As a counterpoint, I hated PVP when I started. Thought it was a waste of time, horse riding sim, etc. I was there only to get caltrops and vigor. And now here I am a couple months later and I haven't even run a dungeon in a couple weeks because all I do is PVP. Sometimes people just need a taste of it to find out they like it.

Not disagreeing with you, but dont you think players who are inclined to that sort of thing would find it on their own accord without being funneled into it? Imagine if the pvp was good enough that players already heard about how good it is instead of them dreading having to endure it for some skills a website says you need to be competitive in a completely different aspect of the game.

Honestly, I wouldn't have. I came to ESO from Skyrim and I was perfectly happy pretending this was a single player game. Except...I wanted Master Angler. I wanted Master Angler bad.

So I went into Cyrodiil, got ganked a few times. Ran around on that super confusing map and got slaughtered by slaughterfish. Got my first kill (A vampire ganked me on my Dunmer MagDK while I was fishing) and complained bitterly that the only fishing hole was right by the AD gates.

I left Cyrodiil saying I'd never return.

Then I wanted skyshards.
Then I wanted delving and questing achievements.

Eventually I went i to PVP to actually PVP. I got killed a lot. I found a group to run around with and eventually found the PVP guild I'm still playing with a year later.

Knowing what type of player I was, I would not have ever had the PVP experiences I have now if ZOS had not included Cyrodiil in the Master Angler requirements.

The biggest issue with low population campaigns is just that... low population. Go into any campaign in PC NA besides Vivec and the campaign will be completely one sided. Incentives will not matter a whole lot if the campaigns are so one sided that people cannot get anything worth while done

People may not like the que or lag issues in Vivec but they know at least that when they go in they will be on equal footing with the other 2 alliances. Sure the map gets dominated at times by one alliance but overall it is short lived and any of the other 2 alliances can rebound quickly.

What the game needs is a healthy enough PvP population to fill other campaigns and that no longer seems to be the case

coop500 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

i think there are a lot of incentives to do pvp as a pve player...which always annoys me cause i don't care about pvp and don't want to be forced...

there are the skills that are "essential" for pve (caultrops, vigor, warhorn etc.)
there are the transmute crystals
the alliance points and the rewards you get from them
there are the pvp motifs

if you want more rewards fine - but dont make pve players do pvp just for pve related necessities

This is what I was saying in another thread except reversed. If you want a particular monster helm for a pvp build youre working on, then you got to go into a vet dungeon to get it because they make it BoP.
Yeah sure we're not literally being forced... but it kind of sucks to have to miss something that may be BiS for a build.

Which now you guys have 'The Golden' selling helms and shoulders.

My guy have you seen what that dingus sells. Sorry I don't want to have to wait a month for something besides Nerienth, Shadowrend and Bogdan

Everyone is different. I find pvp fun because the gameplay is dynamic, Im not just repeating a rotation over and over again. Even though I still suck and die alot, its still fun to learn. I think if they could just fix the lag it would be more than enough to increase pvp population.

Now if ZoS could get rid of the DoT meta for vet dungeons I might actually feel like trying them.
I like the pve in diablo 3 because burst damage is king. I remember reading a post and someone said the 300k health test dummy you get from CWC is isnt enough health to practice longer boss fight rotations..... oh the HORROR!
Its boring. I hate rotations. If I die I know its just going to be the same enemies, in the same places, doing the same thing.
We need a pve only skill tree so we can get high burst damage aoe skills without screwing up the balance in pvp.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

i think there are a lot of incentives to do pvp as a pve player...which always annoys me cause i don't care about pvp and don't want to be forced...

there are the skills that are "essential" for pve (caultrops, vigor, warhorn etc.)
there are the transmute crystals
the alliance points and the rewards you get from them
there are the pvp motifs

if you want more rewards fine - but dont make pve players do pvp just for pve related necessities

Caltrops, Vigor, and Warhorn are all PVP skills first and foremost that PVEers decided were essential to doing content. ZOS is delighted that PVEers "force" themselves into PVP in order to follow the meta.

Now all we need is that the magicka pvp skills become essential so that MagChars have to go there as well. There's an incentive for you.

A stack of tri-pots when the campaign ends.