Animation canceling Xbox

idk · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
There is no logic behind it and there is no reaction who some1 hits you with:
Norm atk clipped->skill clipped->bash infinity
There is no logic behind:
Barrier clipped->block
Vigor clipped->rolldodge

Norm atk clipped->barrier stack

Heavy atk clipped->charge

This is not the reactive combat idea based upon ESO build it's mechanics.

Everyone can Animation cancel.
People with higher ping cannot react to the clipped animations of an opponent.
People that don't play the handful of metas do not benefit from AC

Coding is logic. What I am speaking to is the logic of the game which also extends to the logic of the discussion. Pure and simple. Ignoring this in the conversation on the topic is, by definition, illogical.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

To you find it logical that people should reply with L2P, while they themselves drive the metas, embracing AC, instead of saying "hey ZOS, AC doesn't serve everyone equally (and there is no SKILL FACTOR) so we as a community demand that you FIX it" ?

If such a stance was adopted by everyone, instead of some people farming those that have yet to watch a 5min video on YouTube, whilst mainitaining the delusion that they are SKILLED, I think that ESO would be a much better game, with a greater importance on strategic thinking, REACTION, personal taste and combat prowness, less metas, more competitive build ideas and finally less band aid nerfs/boost to the 4 classes.

Improving the concept of reaction combat would make ESO better.

BTW remove bonus damage from Max Stamina, Max Magika, in order to see hybrid builds, or fighters utilizing Class skills and Mages whatever. Break free more.

Again, another point I made is if Zos were to eliminate AC two things will happen.

1. Animations will merely be shortened so skills fire off just as fast. Reality is, more skilled players fire off skills faster than lesser skilled players. Playing field is never level. Skilled players still fire off skills faster. Those that have the delusion they are skilled fill the forums and game change of many MMOs.
2. If you have issues with meta builds you are playing the wrong genre. MMOs always have meta builds. Meta builds are by definition the more competitive builds discovered.

So if you have an issue with meta builds then you will have a sad life in any MMO. Experienced and skilled players tend to discover what works well. Complaining about meta is like complaining that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

AC requires no skill. More people quit ESO because a small portion of beta testers and forum users are interested in number crunching and min/maxing.

You have failed to address the issues I outline. You dwell on status quo not seeing the need for change to benefit all. There is an even playing field that can be achieved. Some will be winners some will be losers and AC will have nothing to do with it.

zaria · June 2017

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Tho animation cancelling is unintended feature, the devs accepted it in the game as they couldn't fix it, however it is what makes eso combat fun and you feel progress when you learn how to do it, and it is not hard to do. It is ironic what made eso combat fun is in the game by mistake.

And even if they were able to remove it, top players will stay top players, not because of cp or lvl, but because they know which skill to use at which time, they know which skills combo will work the best, they know how to use the environment, they have better situational awareness, when to block, dodge roll, and the list go on and on.. and i bet the anti-animation cancelling players will find something to complain about.

And i don't see them removing it even if they figured how, as they will need to balance the whole game, from pvp to pve, skills, sets, numbers ..etc

They could fix it, however this would require them to add casting time to all skills, yes this would include shields and healing.
Or they could not let you stop casting once you start even if staying in stupid.
Both was bad options.

idk · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

AC requires no skill. More people quit ESO because a small portion of beta testers and forum users are interested in number crunching and min/maxing.

You have failed to address the issues I outline. You dwell on status quo not seeing the need for change to benefit all. There is an even playing field that can be achieved. Some will be winners some will be losers and AC will have nothing to do with it.

@GeorgeBlack

Your true nature is showing now. LOL. Meta and number crunching are in every game. Few players that quit due to them really should never play an MMO. Most prefer to look at the meta and what is out there to find ways to improve instead of merely complaining like you are.

Further, I did not fail to address any issue you outlines. I proved the foundation of your argument false in many ways. You just choose to ignore that. I did not dwell on any status quo, you are making things up now. I merely stated facts and the reality of the games design.

The same skilled players will do best with and without AC.

zaria wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Tho animation cancelling is unintended feature, the devs accepted it in the game as they couldn't fix it, however it is what makes eso combat fun and you feel progress when you learn how to do it, and it is not hard to do. It is ironic what made eso combat fun is in the game by mistake.

And even if they were able to remove it, top players will stay top players, not because of cp or lvl, but because they know which skill to use at which time, they know which skills combo will work the best, they know how to use the environment, they have better situational awareness, when to block, dodge roll, and the list go on and on.. and i bet the anti-animation cancelling players will find something to complain about.

And i don't see them removing it even if they figured how, as they will need to balance the whole game, from pvp to pve, skills, sets, numbers ..etc

They could fix it, however this would require them to add casting time to all skills, yes this would include shields and healing.
Or they could not let you stop casting once you start even if staying in stupid.
Both was bad options.

@zaria

There is a required CD for skills as I pointed out earlier. Just people like George confuse animation with the time that should be required for a skill. It is why George does not understand what I said.

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Most mmorpgs have a variety of classes, they don't have metas.
Metas are for simple games like Dota and LoL, (in which Shuffle and procs would belong to).
Most mmorpgs are about skill in combat, not gear sets and stats. Most mmorpgs don't have a broken combat system in which skill animations don't show.

Address the points if you wanna get your point through. You just repeat this "This is how combat works in ESO", when I am saying that the system in which ESO combat is build needs to be looked at.

theamazingx · June 2017

Countcalorie wrote: »

less about skill and more about who has better connection.try block animation cancelling on Australian internet.you will never be able to do it consistently.
Beat a sorc "pro" on xbox eu? prepare for the wave of hatemail thats about to hit you.make a build to counter these players(shieldbreaker):prepare for abuse and hatemail.

@Countcalorie
There's an australian dps in my guild that weaves just fine, even in a raid environment.

That's the power of e f f o r t

idk · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Most mmorpgs have a variety of classes, they don't have metas.
Metas are for simple games like Dota and LoL, (in which Shuffle and procs would belong to).
Most mmorpgs are about skill in combat, not gear sets and stats. Most mmorpgs don't have a broken combat system in which skill animations don't show.

Address the points if you wanna get your point through. You just repeat this "This is how combat works in ESO", when I am saying that the system in which ESO combat is build needs to be looked at.

The games you mention explain much about your comments. Let me be the first to welcome you to the rich world of major MMOs.

Dota and LOL are not MMOs. They are MOBAs. Not only a different genre but both very simplistic.

Again, I addressed your main point and destroyed the foundation of your argument and your best reply complaining about metas and crunching numbers drove players away which is patently absurd.

Scroll back and look at my post. I made a number of points in multiple threads vs the blind rage replies you have made. I stick with facts that there is a CD for every skill.

CyrusArya · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

People that argue for animation cancelling are biased. The won't engage in a logical conversation.
The only argument I accept for AC, is that ZOS might mess the game should they attempt to fix it.

However ESO players should not embrace AC, thus forcing ZOS to be very diligent in fixing combat animations.

Only open to your perspective ey? The definition of ignorance. Cancelling and weaving allows for more actions over a given period of time. Ergo, it allows for faster and more responsive play, which in turn provides for more skillful play. End of story.

This all not to mention the basic fact I have to bring up every time a new generation of scrubs starts complaining about weaving. 'Cancelling' is technically a misnomer. You can only cancel abilities that are instant cast, therefore, you are not skipping anything mechanically. Instant. Cast. The devs even changed the game so the animation fully displays even if you 'cancel'. So the argument that cancelling is an exploit the devs ignore is also moot. They have fully embraced it and developed the game around it. You are wasting your breath. Get good or get out.

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

@CyrusArya
As if I will be forced to get out by a sheep like you. Keep silent if you can't grasp what I'm saying. You clearly go through posts tl;dr

I won't repeat anything to you.
2 things btw.
If you want me to accept ZOS work on combat like you have why bother posting in topics like these?
If you believe that I'm the noob and you got skillz why are you terrified of a game without AC?

AC does not make combat reactive. It's a failed attempt at making combat reactive. It must be improved.

CyrusArya · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@CyrusArya
As if I will be forced to get out by a sheep like you. Keep silent if you can't grasp what I'm saying. You clearly go through posts tl;dr

I won't repeat anything to you.
2 things btw.
If you want me to accept ZOS work on combat like you have why bother posting in topics like these?
If you believe that I'm the noob and you got skillz why are you terrified of a game without AC?

AC does not make combat reactive. It's a failed attempt at making combat reactive. It must be improved.

No one is scared of a game without it. Unlike you, I will adapt and succeed in any meta. Problem is, people like you will still get stomped and be right back here complaining about the next thing. My concern is that the fluid combat in this game is my favorite aspect of it, and i don't wanna see it ruined by people who refuse to learn or develop. Its like unemployed people demanding welfare handouts and criticizing successful people- obnoxious. You cannot cater anything to people who whine because they are low effort and weak willed people. Caving to their demands is a recipe for failure in any endeavor.

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

@CyrusArya

You have nothing new to say, your tone is different. It is bellow me. Others that support your position at least don't provoke angry replies. I will ignore you. I can continue the argument about AC without you. Don't bring inrl in a game. The world is huge.

Waffennacht · June 2017

Well we all know AC is here to stay.

Like it, Love it or Hate it, it's gonna be here.

My personal opinion?

I think if it did or didn't exist the game would be the same, just essentially better reaction times (as no AC would allow me to decide what to do next during animation)

But the overall damage per action would be same (or heal per action etc)

Some defensive stuff would become better (say Hots) because TTK would be a bit longer.

Doesn't matter though, they never planned for it (meaning if they could have removed it they would have long ago), meaning it's not going away.

I WOULD love for Proc sets to somehow be unAC-able during pvp, I mean it does skip the CD giving essentially a free WB on no CD...

But again, just pretend it's intended and has always been this way. (Like if you never knew there was no AC, you wouldn't know to be upset)

Gosh I hope this makes some sense

Demycilian · June 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Only open to your perspective ey? The definition of ignorance. Cancelling and weaving allows for more actions over a given period of time. Ergo, it allows for faster and more responsive play, which in turn provides for more skillful play. End of story.

I cant help but ponder the question whether the irony of that masterpiece was intentional. Tho seeing how the anti-competitive AC apologists in this forum seem to operate - probably not.

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Is that what your nature is?
You "destroyed my base for argument?" Ego wars and forum skillz. That's what I smell.

No you haven't address my issues one by one. I paint the big picture but you are stuck in pixels.
AC does not promote a reactive combat. It promotes numbers, stats and rotations just like MOBAS do.
MMORPGS are about which Class/role can beat which, and it requires a variety of skills from which to draw upon strategically.

AC people use the same robotic rotation whether they attack a tank or a damage dealer.
AC makes people rely on sustain for defence, and AC burst for attack, giving room for little difference between classes/roles like MMORPGS should offer.
I've played mmorgs that provide 15+ Classes from 7 races, 7 Classes from 5 Races and even a very resent massive mmorpg which gives only a handful of classes which each performs distinctively.

ESO promotes a handful of metas, and the same more or less playstyle for all.

CyrusArya · June 2017

Demycilian wrote: »

I cant help but ponder the question whether the irony of that masterpiece was intentional. Tho seeing how the anti-competitive AC apologists in this forum seem to operate - probably not.

It's not anti competetive when the ability and technique is accessble to everyone. Dumbest thing I've read all day. The only thing that is anti competetive is your mindset, for demanding the game cater to your incompetence instead of you adapting to the game like everyone else has.

kuro-dono · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Is that what your nature is?
You "destroyed my base for argument?" Ego wars and forum skillz. That's what I smell.

No you haven't address my issues one by one. I paint the big picture but you are stuck in pixels.
AC does not promote a reactive combat. It promotes numbers, stats and rotations just like MOBAS do.
MMORPGS are about which Class/role can beat which, and it requires a variety of skills from which to draw upon strategically.

AC people use the same robotic rotation whether they attack a tank or a damage dealer.
AC makes people rely on sustain for defence, and AC burst for attack, giving room for little difference between classes/roles like MMORPGS should offer.
I've played mmorgs that provide 15+ Classes from 7 races, 7 Classes from 5 Races and even a very resent massive mmorpg which gives only a handful of classes which each performs distinctively.

ESO promotes a handful of metas, and the same more or less playstyle for all.

damn well said.

Drummerx04 · June 2017

Countcalorie wrote: »

less about skill and more about who has better connection.try block animation cancelling on Australian internet.you will never be able to do it consistently.
Beat a sorc "pro" on xbox eu? prepare for the wave of hatemail thats about to hit you.make a build to counter these players(shieldbreaker):prepare for abuse and hatemail.

Shieldbreaker is *** because the set hard counters an entire class - which in short of running a pet which takes up 2-3 skill slots - does not have a reliable class heal. The set in effect becomes an unpurgeable 2-3k DOT against builds that generally run relatively low health, and NOT shielding on a magsorc really isn't an option. The only counter to shieldbreaker is to kill the person with it, LoS, dodge roll to offset some damage, or have a healer friend with you.

Imagine if you will, "cloakbreaker" whenever a stealthed player comes within 28m, or cloaks within 28m, they are immediately revealed and take 3k unresistable damage. Or "breath of life breaker", any player within 28m takes 3k unresistable damage before being healed by a morph of rushed ceremony. Low health templars could literally execute themselves by healing.

These sets would be total crap to play against and shieldbreaker is no different. Hate telling someone who runs it is arguably still pretty lame, but not nearly as lame as the set itself.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

Eh, I'd love to see them remove light attack weaving by having light and heavy attacks proc the Global Skill Cooldown. But, if they ever did that they'd have to do a few things first/at the same time:

Introduce traits/skills that reduce animation time/ reduce the GCD (of all skills or individual skills)
Tie the animations and hits together well (essentially redoing how animations/hits work with one another)
Allow resource regeneration via heavy and light attacks.
Normalize damage between heavy and light attacks while augmenting how heavy attacks apply damage. (light attacks become standard, whereas heavy attacks can be used for unique effects)

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Eh, I'd love to see them remove light attack weaving by having light and heavy attacks proc the Global Skill Cooldown. But, if they ever did that they'd have to do a few things first/at the same time:

Allow resource regeneration via heavy and light attacks.

In a different MMORPGS that I played back in 2011 the normal hits used to do precisely that. Meaningless to say that that game didn't not have such a sry excuse for AC and the combat was truly reactive with blocking, roll dodging, evasive attacks and counter attacks.

Your other points are also good.
But being realistic I know that it is too much for ZOS to do and DO properly. The community however needs to ask for changes that better the game.

idk · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Is that what your nature is?
You "destroyed my base for argument?" Ego wars and forum skillz. That's what I smell.

No you haven't address my issues one by one. I paint the big picture but you are stuck in pixels.
AC does not promote a reactive combat. It promotes numbers, stats and rotations just like MOBAS do.
MMORPGS are about which Class/role can beat which, and it requires a variety of skills from which to draw upon strategically.

AC people use the same robotic rotation whether they attack a tank or a damage dealer.
AC makes people rely on sustain for defence, and AC burst for attack, giving room for little difference between classes/roles like MMORPGS should offer.
I've played mmorgs that provide 15+ Classes from 7 races, 7 Classes from 5 Races and even a very resent massive mmorpg which gives only a handful of classes which each performs distinctively.

ESO promotes a handful of metas, and the same more or less playstyle for all.

@GeorgeBlack your comments about meta builds explains everything we have seen from you in this thread and your lack of experience in MMOs. Especially since you named dota and lol as MMOs.

in most MMOs if you don't follow the BiS rotation you will like a wet noodle, More so than in ESO.

I'd suggest studying up on good builds and practice with them. You'll get there. If your interested in continuing with MMOs you'll find them in every one.

It is laughable that you state I haven't dealt with points you presented one by one since they are all based on the first point which I destroyed which rendered the rest mostly moot. Lol.

Enjoy and have a good day.

Waffennacht · June 2017

@GeorgeBlack I'm a console player, meaning my experience with MMOs is very limited (just ESO and Neverwinter) and quite frankly Neverwinter was not at all reactive, and the rotation was the same for EVERYTHING, I ran one of each class and ranger had the best dps.

It was literally X, Y, B LT, X, Y,B, RB, etc etc against NPCs, bosses, players, everything was X, Y, B no block, no roll, no shield, no AC nothing but X, Y, B

This means, to me, ESO has a far more reactionary and in depth combat comparatively.

In Neverwinter, your gear and stats play an even more important role and really is the only way to advance the game/ only reward.

You seem to have played a plethora of MMOs, which means on PC I'll guess. PC have had the capacity for much more in-depth games more of practically everything. I can't see a fair comparison made between a PC only game and one Primarily designed around consoles and controllers (this is why ESO has such limited bars etc based around controllers and consoles bring in more money afaik)

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I said that metas and the skill Shuffle belong to games like Dota, Lol(Mobas), in which stats is what makes or breaks a victory, rather than reactive gaming.

You are using this trying to make me look like I confused mmorpgs with Mobas. At this point I think that you clearly cannot comprehend what I am saying in my posts.

You rather try to attack and discredit.

My opinion on AC stands.
I don't claim to know what players want, since not every single player is here in these forums. I do point out the flows of AC, I want it fix in order bring everyone on an even playing field. Higher ping players and lower ping players. Meta and original build users.
AC takes no skills, everyone can learn it from 5min youtube.
AC is easy to perform. More so with certain builds (eg stamNB).
AC is not easy to react to when one plays with high ping.
AC needs to be fixed as it does not promote reactive combat.
My suggestions would make combat smoother while maintaining the idea of reactive and fluid combat.

idk · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I said that metas and the skill Shuffle belong to games like Dota, Lol(Mobas), in which stats is what makes or breaks a victory, rather than reactive gaming.

You are using this trying to make me look like I confused mmorpgs with Mobas. At this point I think that you clearly cannot comprehend what I am saying in my posts.

You rather try to attack and discredit.

My opinion on AC stands.
I don't claim to know what players want, since not every single player is here in these forums. I do point out the flows of AC, I want it fix in order bring everyone on an even playing field. Higher ping players and lower ping players. Meta and original build users.
AC takes no skills, everyone can learn it from 5min youtube.
AC is easy to perform. More so with certain builds (eg stamNB).
AC is not easy to react to when one plays with high ping.
AC needs to be fixed as it does not promote reactive combat.
My suggestions would make combat smoother while maintaining the idea of reactive and fluid combat.

In ESO, and most MMORPGs, playing skill trumps most things (not including proc sets). Skill is mostly the abilty to play, but also encompasses gearing and what actual skills one uses and when they use them. That is were meta comes in. Great for getting ideas.

I am not trying to make you look confused. When you changed the discussion to complaining about meta builds I merely pointed out that meta builds are a constant in MMOs and even if someone chooses to ignore meta builds they will end up staring them down in PvP. It is you that brought up that metas are for simple games like LOL and DOTA which indicates you do not understand what meta is.

Heck, I can agree that animations should be shortened to match the CD for the skills. While it would eliminate the use of the term AC, it would not change the speed of combat. It would not level the playing field as stronger and more experienced players will still be able to fire off skills faster and will know better when to use certain skills to give them the advantage. They will still strive to equip the better gear and they will still be the one standing more often at the end of battle. Experience and skill wins most often. There is no such thing as an even playing field.

TBH, in PvE and PvP I do not use AC intentionally outside of weaving a basic attack. Only if it coincides with a bar swap do I AC. I really do not have an issue except when I faced with a more skilled player or a group. It comes down to skill and experience the most.

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I told you that you get stuck in pixels while I paint the big image.

idk · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I told you that you get stuck in pixels while I paint the big image.

LOL. Such petty replies merely take your thread further off topic.

AngelMonkey0322 · February 2018

Seems so simple. If the devs designed and tested the animation to take a certain amount of time based on its effect...or damage, and you can increase dps by shortening the length of the animation down to a separate value dictated by GCD, then they clearly wasted dev resources by designing the animation to be longer than the GCD. They designed in the damage to register at the end of the animation. They couldn't have meant for the trigger for the damage to register to also be the start of the next action. Suggesting that was the intention because you've adapted to and enjoy how it turned out is nonsense.

This could not have been intended. Calling it a feature, simply because it isn't being fixed, is a less than elegant excuse for poor design, testing and implementation.

Why take the time to animate sword swings at all or design certain animations to be longer than others if their duration is not the intended mechanic for determining dps? The fact that the length of the animation is not the determining factor is so obviously a mistake that it should not even be debatable. Waiting for a strike to finish before it registers damage is how it should be. If that means changing something about the GCD, so be it...that is for the bitflippers to figure out. What is clear is that the intended functionality was not AC or weaving or any of those skills.