Kanar wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Encountered this last night in vmol when I kept noticing my endless hail would cancel itself over and over again when I'd try to use it after a bar swap and couldn't really figure out why. Seems that both endless hail and caltrops (and possibly others) are cancelling themselves if activated immediately after a weapon swap. Any abilities used before doesn't seem to make any difference, it happens every time if you swap too fast.

Endless hail in combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCJ9Vv0LVgo
Caltrops in and out of combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sa5CqKrJfw
https://youtu.be/I7GyonrLhLE

Happens with all addons disabled too. Anyone else having this issue?

That's a nasty bug, but the better question is why are you weapon swapping with endless hail/caltrops and letting poison injection scale to your bow bar?

Poison injection is an impact bar scaling dot, so you should swap after casting this ability so that it scales off your dw bar. Furthermore, begin with hail and either:

Posion injection recalculates every tick, it takes the current bar you have on stats into account. Also why cruel flurry is junk.

See here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4456953#Comment_4456953

Not quite, it has delayed damage (similar to trap beast, also an impact bar dot). The entire scaling of this dot is effected by what bar you are on when the first tick of damage you applied.

There is a huge reddit page/tamriel foundry discussion on these 2 particular skills. I used to have them bookmarked, it seems I don't anymore. Either way a quick google will bring up alot of great info.

You're wrong; PI was fixed so that it's damage correctly ramps up as HP drops (execute bonus). This change effectively made it behave like a ground placed dot. As the linked patch note says...

Right.. it's always beem an execute. Then they broke all the executes...

And today of you test on dummy weather or not it's a current/impact scaling dot, SUPRISE, it does more damage if it's calculated from dw bar. If you were right, it would be the same damage overall.

No *** it does more damage calculated from the dw bar. The point is it calculates from your current weapon damage every tick so when you're on dw bar it does dw damage and when you're on bow bar it does bow damage.

Only point here is that you are wrong (or just are incapable of understanding what we're saying) and then try to change the discussion into "dw ticks do more than bow ticks" which of course everyone knows.

I didn't try to change anything. You're just too stupid to comprehend it.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Encountered this last night in vmol when I kept noticing my endless hail would cancel itself over and over again when I'd try to use it after a bar swap and couldn't really figure out why. Seems that both endless hail and caltrops (and possibly others) are cancelling themselves if activated immediately after a weapon swap. Any abilities used before doesn't seem to make any difference, it happens every time if you swap too fast.

Endless hail in combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCJ9Vv0LVgo
Caltrops in and out of combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sa5CqKrJfw
https://youtu.be/I7GyonrLhLE

Happens with all addons disabled too. Anyone else having this issue?

That's a nasty bug, but the better question is why are you weapon swapping with endless hail/caltrops and letting poison injection scale to your bow bar?

Poison injection is an impact bar scaling dot, so you should swap after casting this ability so that it scales off your dw bar. Furthermore, begin with hail and either:

Posion injection recalculates every tick, it takes the current bar you have on stats into account. Also why cruel flurry is junk.

See here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4456953#Comment_4456953

^ This person is correct. Per the patch notes, Poison Injection not only recalculates, but will do more damage if your stats change. Your stats definitely change when on the DW bar so whether you cast it from the bow bar and it impacts there or impacts on the other bar, it will recalculate on the next tick to do the damage of the bar you're currently on.

The old reddit linked post says exactly the same thing. Here's a quote from it:

when I cast elemental blockade on my staff bar it does 1886 damage to a hoarver, but then when I switch to my dual wield it suddenly starts doing 2216 damage.

This player is experiencing the same thing. He cast the bar on his staff bar (because that's where it casts from) and then swapping to dual wield RAISES the tick damage for the duration.

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

The entire scaling of this dot is effected by what bar you are on when the first tick of damage you applied.

Which makes this incorrect.

In typical reddit fashion, the first comment is immediately wrong having not read the patch notes.

Reddit: Single target DoTs use penetration, max stamina and weapon damage from the impact bar for damage calculation and crit chance and crit modifier from the bar you're currently on.

Which goes completely against the patch notes change.

Patch Notes: but also means the tick value can increase or decrease if your stats change while it’s active.

In short, Lightspeed is correct.

I'm pretty sure patch notes were talking about buffs like major slayer/warhorn/etc. If you haf a crappy white bow, cast poison injection, cast endless hail, and swap, you still get crappy white bow damage.

It's not hard to look and see for yourself...

Here is a comprehensive guide:

unequip all gear, except weapons. Equip lvl 3 crappy bow. Use poison injection and immediately barswap. What happens is, it is scaled to the dw. If you go back to the lvl 3 crappy bow, the damage doesn't plummet.

Doing the opposite: fire poison arrow on crappy bow, wait first tick, barswap, and behold still crappy damage. What the update DID change is that now you still get passive benefits (max resources) amd crit damage increases (templars aedric spear passive).

The scaling you see is after the base damage of the skill has been calculated. But it DOES NOT change the base value of the skill itself. So while buffs like warhorn/combat prayer/major slayer will now be actively accounted for with each tick, those ticks will still do more or less damage based on which bar the shot was calculated FROM.

P.S.

Elemental blockade is a current bar dot. What was described is exactly as you might expect. Did you not read the links before quoting them?

@Ep1kMalware @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO @Destruent

Thought I'd chime in on this Poison Injection discussion because I've *always* swapped out of that skill, and have tested in the past to confirm that was a valid choice. It's been a long time since I've tested this so thought it was worth a go.

So this is on PTS, with a Redguard stamsorc using 5 x Automaton (all armor), 5 x VO (Jewelry + DW weapons), 2 x Selene, Precise Maelstrom bow.

Buffed with Weapon Power potion stats:

Bow bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 3179
Weapon Critical: 60.3%

DW bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 4501
Weapon Critical: 57.1%

Format of results is: [initial impact non-crit/Initial impact crit], [non-crit tick/crit tick]

Stay on bow bar:
4308/7195, 1686/2816

Impact on bow bar, subsequent ticks on DW bar:
4308/7195, 1972/3294

Fire on bow bar, impact on DW bar:
4244/7088, 1972/3294

Obviously not a definitive test but I think it clearly demonstrates that the Poison Injection ticks don't change if you swap to your DW bar before impact.

The really weird thing here is the reduced damage of the impact of Poison Injection if I swap before impact. I would expect the initial impact to hit for about 5040/8420 (roughly a 17% increase) but instead I'm seeing roughly a 1.5% damage loss by doing so. Took me a minute to figure it out but this is happening because of the Bow passive Long Shots. So it appears that the initial impact of Poison Injection always calculates damage with your bow bar stats regardless of what bar you are on when it impacts that target, and the subsequent DoT ticks are always calculated dynamically regardless of what bar you are on when the initial impact occurred.

The interesting thing here is Long Shots. Even well within melee range you get a small damage buff from this passive ... it seems to me that the damage increase starts outside of about 2 meters and is roughly 1.5% there, and scaling up to the 12% boost at max range. It's also very interesting that as you move closer/further from the target while on your bow bar the DoT ticks from Poison Injection scale with Long Shots based on distance. However, if you are on your DW bar, the damage is the same every tick regardless of your distance from the target. The same is true of Endless Hail. Which means that it might technically be optimal to move away from the target while on the bow bar for a small DPS boost.

On the other hand, Razor Caltrops hits harder on the initial impact damage if you throw it on the bow bar and swap before impact, which leads me to believe that it might actually be optimal to swap out of Caltrops now (e.g., Hail-->Trap-->LA Poison Inject-->LA Caltrops swap).

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony you are still not getting it.

the main hit is not part of the dot. they are separate damage entities. the main hit is buffed by master at arm and the dot is thaumaturge.

try this, when DOT is ticking, swap back and forth, the damage WHILE the DOT portion is ticking will go up and down while you are switching. i do not have time to show you this right now but i will have something by tomorrow morning.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO huh? Still not getting what? That was my first post on this thread and as far as I understand my findings agree with what you said.

So it appears that the initial impact of Poison Injection always calculates damage with your bow bar stats regardless of what bar you are on when it impacts that target, and the subsequent DoT ticks are always calculated dynamically regardless of what bar you are on when the initial impact occurred.

Perhaps try reading more carefully before copping an attitude.

Y'all got a real problem with civility around here.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony Y'all got a real problem with civility around here.

Maybe instead of playing holier then thou card, go back and read the rest of the thread.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I literally did a series of tests and confirmed that Poison Injection behaves like you said it does, as of v3.1.7.

I sincerely apologize for going out of my way to prove you right.

And yes, I saw your "victim card" response before you edited it.

Facepalm.

I just tried this with both quick cast and targeting ground AoEs on and off. I tested Caltrops and Endless hail well as LL and WoE. All ground based AoEs continued after bar swap and after multiple bar swaps. Both the ground effect as well as actual damage as noted from an addon persisted.

Whatever issue you are experiencing it not an issue with the base game. I did have all addons off except for an addon to see DPS actually happening.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony let it go.

@Ep1kMalware

did these test on my stam sorc.

you can plainly see that the with the stat changes, poison injection dot damage also changes.

Right, all dots are going to scale based off of current max resources, weapon damage, crit chance. Were you able to determine if the dots scaled with weapon trait, set bonuses, passive buffs like dawnbreaker, 2h passive buffs (i.e. maces giving additional penetration), crit damage modifiers, proc weapon enchants, and things like that?

Typically it's these bonuses that are taken into consideration when an ability is cast. Like if you cast endless hail it's calculated from your bow bar, item sets on that bar, etc. Then mildly recalculates to account for max resources/base weapon damage when you move to dw bar.

However, some skills can be used on a backbar, like bow, and quickly swapped to dw and scale according to that bar's benefits. Like benefiting from 2 5pc sets instead of 1. I.e. sets like spriggans, automaton. It also allows the skills to benefit from passive buffs as they were already taken into the calculation. Such as flawless dawnbreaker being on your skill bar.

It seems that this is no longer the case for poison arrow. This is actually a very big nerf when you consider cruel flurry magically stopped working for this skill. Also it may not seem like a big nerf at first, but with alot if buffs and execute damage the difference end up being a pretty significant nerf.

And while you are right, the skill was changed anr now behaves differently, it is the only impact dot skill that was. If they changed trap beast to act this way it wouldn't be much of a nerf. Since poison arrow had the same damage scaling, and execute, it had a lot more damage potential that it does now.

Again, you're right. I'm merely expressing disappointment that they singled this skill out and nerfed it after it suspiciously stopped working as an execute without any patch notes stating they modified it in morrowind. Perhaps they thought it was overperforming, given the impact bar factor/vma buff it kind of was overperforming. It's not an issue atm as net dps overall has increased atm, although I thought it was worth mentioning.

Destruent wrote: »

1. Cast on bow bar (dmg-ticks) --> swap to DW-bar (DoT-Ticks1)
2. Cast on bow-bar (stay there) --> DoT-Ticks 2
3. Cast on bow bar --> quickly swap to DW (all dmg on DW) --> DoT-Ticks3

DoT-Ticks1 = DoT Ticks3; DoT-Ticks3 >DoT-Ticks2

Do you understand what that means @Ep1kMalware ? If damage is exactly the same, the chance that it scales entirely the same in both test is pretty high (~100%). If it would be, like you said it would be like: DoT-Ticks3>DoT-Tick1>DoT-Ticks2
Appaerently it isn't...

do you understand what this means? It means that an underperforming skill line (bow) got silently nerfed when it needs a buff more than anything.

Destruent wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

1. Cast on bow bar (dmg-ticks) --> swap to DW-bar (DoT-Ticks1)
2. Cast on bow-bar (stay there) --> DoT-Ticks 2
3. Cast on bow bar --> quickly swap to DW (all dmg on DW) --> DoT-Ticks3

DoT-Ticks1 = DoT Ticks3; DoT-Ticks3 >DoT-Ticks2

Do you understand what that means @Ep1kMalware ? If damage is exactly the same, the chance that it scales entirely the same in both test is pretty high (~100%). If it would be, like you said it would be like: DoT-Ticks3>DoT-Tick1>DoT-Ticks2
Appaerently it isn't...

do you understand what this means? It means that an underperforming skill line (bow) got silently nerfed when it needs a buff more than anything.

No...just no...
case 1: damage is the same as before
case 2: damage is the same as before
case 3 damage is higher than before

So it helps players who don't barswap fast enough or just don't know about that...doesn't look like a nerf to me

No it's not. Stop spewing ***. You need to shut up for a sec and actually stop farting comments. Here is a comparison before the nerf, homestead patch. Character is naked, no raid/vma buffs. In trials poison inject got near 50k ticks, how is that the same or more damage?

https://youtu.be/-06wJmBG8TQ

Once vma buff/raid buffs/all set bonuses start comming into play the damage from this skill becomes noticably gimped. You can make believe w/e the hell you want but this skill mechanic was fundamemtal with stamina dps rotations.