Why does the developer intentionally choose not to provide good info in the game?

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

I’ve been around, probably too long but one of many observations that really have opportunities for improvement is the lack of information in the game.

Specifically I’m talking about “how things work” whether it’s skills and abilities, crown store items, housing, crafting, Champion Points, etc.

Context:
I’m very familiar with the third party websites and very informative forum, Reddit, YouTube, etc details customers take upon themselves but what the concerns are is this.....when they move on, what is the companies succession plan?

I don’t want to link a bunch of different threads, I just want to ask....why are their decisions to intentionally not provide information in the game? For PC and consoles, why?

Also, why do we have to search for information outside of your websites?

Lastly, when we do come here, why are the smart device website versions absent of things like the dev tracker or the tool bar?

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

The observations come from PTS forum topics to Live topics.....they are often the same topics repeated due to intentional lack of information.

No one expects anyone to read minds but when you notice the same posts....literally 10-50 times each PTS and each update week, wouldn’t it make sense to change the patterns?

You often feel awkward cause on top of other issues we deal with, this part is more maneagble to address.

VaranisArano · February 2018

The new Level Up Advisor seems a step in the right direction. Furthermore a lot of information is available from the Help menu that is often ignored.

Its not sufficient, but its helpful.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The new Level Up Advisor seems a step in the right direction. Furthermore a lot of information is available from the Help menu that is often ignored.

Its not sufficient, but its helpful.

@VaranisArano
I agree on the level up advisor.

Sergykid · February 2018

the game lacks deep information like how penetration works, or how much impenetrable reduces damage. Why am i forced to search important information to other sites or other players?

u said u don't wanna post links, but

here i asked for more informative tooltips
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/393020/can-we-have-better-tooltips#latest

here i asked about those two things
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/393836/impenetrable-question-and-penetration-question#latest

here i asked about resistances
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/393703/jewelry-resistances#latest

and i had many more question that the game doesn't provide information to. But ceased to it since saw no reason to.

jaye63 · February 2018

So there's a thing called job speak where you are so in tune with your job, you actually have a separate language for things other dont understand. After a long time of using those terms, you have a tenancy to speak that way to everyone and forget where layman terms and job terms separate and dont relay them as clearly as you think you are. Happens. Just gotta learn the lingo. It prevents presenting things in a manner that presents thing differently than they really are. Confuses the rest of us but... now there's a thing you know.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The new Level Up Advisor seems a step in the right direction. Furthermore a lot of information is available from the Help menu that is often ignored.

Its not sufficient, but its helpful.

It is. But then you hit the skill advisor and it all goes to hell.

The tank build had Javeline. Javeline. The templar tank build had not only javaline, but a luminescent shards.. They seem to be trying to include utility, but I dont know what their going for. I know what they suggest is def not usefull for teamplay most of the time.

ZOS's perception of what their combat system is, and what each roll does, seems to be skewed way out of wack with what the players do, and what the players want. And it's this fundemental disconnect that continues to hold the game back. This is the root of their problems, and I can bet it's due to the disconnect in vision between a few key members of staff, and the playerbase.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

@Sergykid
Those are good examples....and I’ll say this. Some of that is deeper than what I’m suggesting BUT it’s not something you or anyone else should have to spend hours looking up or hoping another player figured it out and created a guide somewhere.

To the rest of this conversation:

I wrote that because I don’t want the idea to be considered a request to dumb down the game. I came from older games where some were RPG server based games while others may have been another type of online game but in most of not all, the game did information you about functionality of what’s on the screen.

I’m not hoping to take away from the mystery in things we should figure out like quests, and boss fights. I am hoping to demystify things like, how and what is this skill, ability or effect doing to me and them.

Things like stats and effects that you can’t see unless you have PC add-ons in addition to gameplay mechanics that are reserved only to those who have this or that.

Grimm13 · February 2018

They only want to do just as much as they can get away with and rely too much on the player community to make up for their lack of support.

Take a look at the Player Guides section. They pinned what at one time a good guide but has become so out of date. Players have asked to unpin the guide as it has not been updated. The Moderators are too lazy to do even that, much less to recheck the relevance of pinned posts to see if they still apply.

We probably here some nonsense that they don't want to drive players the "joy" of discovery in the game. It's not joy one feels when trying to find out how to do something or learn how the game works on a basic level such as how damage types work together with skills.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

Grimm13 wrote: »

They only want to do just as much as they can get away with and rely too much on the player community to make up for their lack of support.

Take a look at the Player Guides section. They pinned what at one time a good guide but has become so out of date. Players have asked to unpin the guide as it has not been updated. The Moderators are too lazy to do even that, much less to recheck the relevance of pinned posts to see if they still apply.

We probably here some nonsense that they don't want to drive players the "joy" of discovery in the game. It's not joy one feels when trying to find out how to do something or learn how the game works on a basic level such as how damage types work together with skills.

@Grim13

Exactly! Stuff like that

Easy_Prey · February 2018

IMHO, I don't want to be inundated with information about what means what while playing the game. I want an immersive experience, and tutorial on advanced combat mechanics and three paragraph long tool tips while I am playing would be no blessing. Let me play with some flow and then look up stuff as needed out of game.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

jaye63 wrote: »

So there's a thing called job speak where you are so in tune with your job, you actually have a separate language for things other dont understand. After a long time of using those terms, you have a tenancy to speak that way to everyone and forget where layman terms and job terms separate and dont relay them as clearly as you think you are. Happens. Just gotta learn the lingo. It prevents presenting things in a manner that presents thing differently than they really are. Confuses the rest of us but... now there's a thing you know.

@jaye63

I completely get what you’re saying. It happens at work in my current job BUT within the rest of your comments, you point out that somewhere, someone has to look up and say. Hey! Wait, let’s make sure most of our audiences are understanding what we are hoping to communicate.

Examples are the ESO Live shows where often times the folks we see most often, fall into this lingo of things.

Personally I do recognize that @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom try to pull the guests out of their lingo but that’s not their job in the game.

I often wonder if those two are involved in the game UI discussions because they spend a lot of time on the shows trying to keep the audience in mind. Thanks ladies BTW

Androconium · February 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I don’t want to link a bunch of different threads, I just want to ask....why are their decisions to intentionally not provide information in the game? For PC and consoles, why?

That would save you time.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

Easy_Prey wrote: »

IMHO, I don't want to be inundated with information about what means what while playing the game. I want an immersive experience, and tutorial on advanced combat mechanics and three paragraph long tool tips while I am playing would be no blessing. Let me play with some flow and then look up stuff as needed out of game.

@Easy_Prey

That’s a good point. Would you agree that both can be accomplished tho with a simple show/hide on PC and a similar item on consoles?

Might help if we were all on the same UI but that’s another feedback item of mine

jaye63 · February 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

So there's a thing called job speak where you are so in tune with your job, you actually have a separate language for things other dont understand. After a long time of using those terms, you have a tenancy to speak that way to everyone and forget where layman terms and job terms separate and dont relay them as clearly as you think you are. Happens. Just gotta learn the lingo. It prevents presenting things in a manner that presents thing differently than they really are. Confuses the rest of us but... now there's a thing you know.

@jaye63

I completely get what you’re saying. It happens at work in my current job BUT within the rest of your comments, you point out that somewhere, someone has to look up and say. Hey! Wait, let’s make sure most of our audiences are understanding what we are hoping to communicate.

Examples are the ESO Live shows where often times the folks we see most often, fall into this lingo of things.

Personally I do recognize that @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom try to pull the guests out of their lingo but that’s not their job in the game.

I often wonder if those two are involved in the game UI discussions because they spend a lot of time on the shows trying to keep the audience in mind. Thanks ladies BTW

That's why I added in the part about it preventing things from being misrepresented. Altho I didnt say it that way because I was trying to post and talk to the ol lady at the same time... job speak issue =D

Hurtfan · February 2018

Every MMO I've ever played, there's never been a rule book per say. I've always wondered why this is the case, why do the mechanics and other things have to be such a mystery?

This is where the good players and the people that have time shine. They get to fool around with stuff and figure out how it works.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Hurtfan wrote: »

Every MMO I've ever played, there's never been a rule book per say. I've always wondered why this is the case, why do the mechanics and other things have to be such a mystery?

This is where the good players and the people that have time shine. They get to fool around with stuff and figure out how it works.

Even when I've seen a game with classes and tallent tree's, I could figure that out reasonibly well (As far as what they wanted me to do through looking at the tallents) than this game.

This game? You are absolutely screwed.

zaria · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The new Level Up Advisor seems a step in the right direction. Furthermore a lot of information is available from the Help menu that is often ignored.

Its not sufficient, but its helpful.

This, now we can argue about the skills recommended as in crystal blast, however they probably thought frag proc would confuse an new player, its designed for totally new players often players who has never played MMO before.
Same with the clanfear because tanking and healing over the scamp.

Nestor · February 2018

Funny how no one has mentioned the Help Menus. They are quite informative about the nuts and bolts operations of the game. But, they do lack in the Why your doing this, just give you the How to do something.

I think the Why and Strategies and Combat tactics and theory crafting should come from the community anyway.

Easy_Prey · February 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Easy_Prey wrote: »

IMHO, I don't want to be inundated with information about what means what while playing the game. I want an immersive experience, and tutorial on advanced combat mechanics and three paragraph long tool tips while I am playing would be no blessing. Let me play with some flow and then look up stuff as needed out of game.

@Easy_Prey

That’s a good point. Would you agree that both can be accomplished tho with a simple show/hide on PC and a similar item on consoles?

Might help if we were all on the same UI but that’s another feedback item of mine

I can see the use of an option. Just a crazy idea, but maybe having NPCs that you can talk to and question about details -- various masters that do more than just offer platitudes in game. Like talking to the local alchemist about ingredients for certain potions, or the battle master that can give tips on skill rotations. (Not like it's going to happen, but it would be fun if it did.)

Grimm13 · February 2018

Easy_Prey wrote: »

IMHO, I don't want to be inundated with information about what means what while playing the game. I want an immersive experience, and tutorial on advanced combat mechanics and three paragraph long tool tips while I am playing would be no blessing. Let me play with some flow and then look up stuff as needed out of game.

I am not talking about tooltips. Actually guides that you can go to and read. There is a lot of basic info that would be good to have BEFORE you make a character.

LiquidPony · February 2018

All developers intentionally choose to skimp on documentation.

Most people don't like writing documentation.

It's management's responsibility to ensure that even the stuff that no one wants to do still gets done. This is generally true in all flavors of software development.

Zer0oo · February 2018

You have to know how the game works to provide useful ingame info.

jaye63 · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

You have to know how the game works to provide useful ingame info.

Ohhh SNAP!

ChuckyPayne · February 2018

Good start, just press F1. Almost every application has a help windows. ESO has too just press F1 (default keybind, check controls menu). That is a good start.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

You have to know how the game works to provide useful ingame info.

So at first I laughed....being serious tho you are saying a lot in this comment.

-My concern...you have to know how the game works to provide useful information.

With this it would seem those creating the useful third party guides are those who know how the game works. The problem is their guides aren't utilized in the game and seemingly the developers don't find value in those enough to add the information in the game. Heck they aren't even on the website, and this is the ONLY game I've owned where an RPG doesn't have a up to date guide on the main website.

-The developer has to know how the game works to provide useful......

With this, there are times many of us question if "they" the devs know....how the game works. Being respectful, there are teams of developers so I'm not suggesting that those we see on ESO Live or who frequent the forums need to know it all......BUT...often those we see are the same "they" who have decision power and influence to what is added to the game.

This is exactly what peaked me to post this thread....why is the decision intentionally being made not to add the information? Those I'm referring to who I wont tag, are the same "they" who site beside the PR folks and see both the threads created for QnA on shows and PTS as well as the chat logs on ESO Live.

There are enough on staff individually who do know, however I don't know if one group works closely with another on a regular and ongoing basis. it would seem that they do not based on ESO Live shows. Perhaps this is something to look at, is it meaningful for them to work together more and at what intervals?

I would argue yes because with the info also comes the bugs or issues that become features outside of what the community hopes or expects as meaningful and improvements....that process consistently leads to confusion...and confusion will result in backlash, frustration, harsh threads, hard media, or a hand full of people up to maybe a guild leaving the game...whether its on their own decision or as a result of some other action.

Hurtfan · February 2018

Conspiracy theory:

no information on how things work = more time needing to be spent to play the game (time sink) = more $ (not all MMOs is this the case)

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

Hurtfan wrote: »

Conspiracy theory:

no information on how things work = more time needing to be spent to play the game (time sink) = more $ (not all MMOs is this the case)

@Hurtfan

I don't think most are going to spend time to figure it out, they may look elsewhere and keep playing if they find the info but if not.....IDK that it leads to revenue.

Lieblingsjunge · February 2018

Basic knowledge is something ESO should provide - and with the level up advisor and the information on "Help" - it covers the basics.
When you just start out in a game - you don't want to be presented with a sheet of mathematical, numeric equations that explains how much Impenetrable helps - or how much 100 block cost reduction is.

Sure - they could clarify the tooltips, but doing the introductions ad the tutorial, and you're learning a lot of the basics.

You shouldn't add all kinds of calculations and information to the basic game knowledge. Just let people,that's interested in knowing how much impenetrable lowers your damage with in terms of numbers, make those calculationsor look up the articles online.

Idk, tbh - ESO seems, in general, to do a good job of it. They even added the tip for when you should CC-break.

Psyonico · February 2018

I feel you, OP.

I have spent more time researching what damage resistance levels mean, how much damage is good, what penetration numbers mean, etc.

I'm glad that at least critical numbers show as a percentage, but wait, only in the character screen, everywhere else shows as a meaningless number

Lysette · February 2018

There is actually a help section in the client - which provides information to certain topics - F1 brings it up.