VaranisArano wrote: »

If I'm looking at my PVE damage recap based on damage done, you'd think my bow was my main weapon.

Nearly every serious stamina build uses a bow. Oh, they just use it for DOTs? At least on my stam sorc, DOTs are pretty much all I do, including with my dual wield bar. The only reason I heavy attack on my dual wield bar instead of bow is because DW is quicker and more controllable due to ZOS making bow heavy attacks fire automatically.

If I'm looking to do really good stam DPS, what do I need? A Maelstrom or a Master bow.

In PVP, bows are fantastic ranged weapons. I play a stam warden, and sure, I've got a 2handed bar, but I probably play 90% of the time on my bow bar from range. Poison Injection? Nasty. Not quite as nasty as my now dodgeable birds, but nasty.


Now, if you only use bow, yeah, you are going to be missing some damage sources from your rotation. But if you can still pull enough DPS without those to complete whatever content you are in without being carried, go for it.

+1

sharquez wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

as a Bow Main user i need to keep people AWAY from me.
eso does not provide that ability for us Bow users.
that basicly kills Bow as your main weapon.

There is Beast trap, Magnum shot, Barrage, Expedition from Dodge-roll, Bows have the tools, we are all just fools. :P

Barrage? Perhaps you mean Arrow Spray, ie Acid Spray/Bombard?

Regardless none of these take players out of gap close range so you are not going to keep anyone off you.

More importantly though I don't think keeping people away is that big of an issue. The bigger issue is snare while casting Snipe, and lower healing power because of lower weapon damage. As stated many times elsewhere the base weapon damage of bows should be brought up and skills should be adjusted to compensate. Although given the discrepancy in damage output I doubt you would really need to adjust skills.

Yeah Bombard/Acid spray that's the B word I'm looking for (Thank you). And yes gap closers exist, and can be an issue for mag toons too which is why you should try to engage on your terms and with terrain advantage. The tools are out there to make good bow builds for off meta playstyles. I think before we ask for wanton buffs/nerfs we as aplayer base should probe deeper than the skin deep meta and find builds that work for us, and learn how to use them. I have not for instance seen Dk archers taking massive advantage of the Swamp raider set, (Which i plan to at some point make a stam Dk archer but i need that dang-ol master bow first.)

Oh trust me I'm very successful with my bow builds. However certainly for PVE dps they are not really competitive, albeit entirely able to complete content. Currently the state lends itself towards stam melee dps being highly advantaged over anything else, magicka offer destro ults though which still gets them in the door.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

as a Bow Main user i need to keep people AWAY from me.
eso does not provide that ability for us Bow users.
that basicly kills Bow as your main weapon.

There is Beast trap, Magnum shot, Barrage, Expedition from Dodge-roll, Bows have the tools, we are all just fools. :P

Barrage? Perhaps you mean Arrow Spray, ie Acid Spray/Bombard?

Regardless none of these take players out of gap close range so you are not going to keep anyone off you.

More importantly though I don't think keeping people away is that big of an issue. The bigger issue is snare while casting Snipe, and lower healing power because of lower weapon damage. As stated many times elsewhere the base weapon damage of bows should be brought up and skills should be adjusted to compensate. Although given the discrepancy in damage output I doubt you would really need to adjust skills.

Yeah Bombard/Acid spray that's the B word I'm looking for (Thank you). And yes gap closers exist, and can be an issue for mag toons too which is why you should try to engage on your terms and with terrain advantage. The tools are out there to make good bow builds for off meta playstyles. I think before we ask for wanton buffs/nerfs we as aplayer base should probe deeper than the skin deep meta and find builds that work for us, and learn how to use them. I have not for instance seen Dk archers taking massive advantage of the Swamp raider set, (Which i plan to at some point make a stam Dk archer but i need that dang-ol master bow first.)

Oh trust me I'm very successful with my bow builds. However certainly for PVE dps they are not really competitive, albeit entirely able to complete content. Currently the state lends itself towards stam melee dps being highly advantaged over anything else, magicka offer destro ults though which still gets them in the door.

Buff ranged stam and mag dk/magplar for pve

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

as a Bow Main user i need to keep people AWAY from me.
eso does not provide that ability for us Bow users.
that basicly kills Bow as your main weapon.

my comment stands, it speaks the truth

In PVP, I do 90% of combat on my bow bar as a stam warden without using the bow ability with a knockback. I just stay at range or if I'm in melee, rely on line of sight and dodge rolling to stay mobile. So its less that I need to keep my enemies away and more that I need to be good at staying away from my enemies.

wanted to see a "charge" bow function, call it "overdraw", where you could hold the bow button down to charge a much more powerful attack, which you could see by your stam bar draining. Once yer stam drops below 'x' the bow would automatically discharge, if not discharged manually at some point before. Typical stam regen on a successful HA.

Obviously the downside would be interrupted attacks, the time taken to overdraw, and the affects of missing a shot and having consumed resources (dodged, broken LOS, etc.).

Here's my build, but forgive the lack of info. Saw your post and had to make a quick build from my phone . esoacademy.com/builds/bowblade/

Btw I use all Divines and think I have 7 piece medium atm.
5 NMG
1 Hundings Helmet
1 Kena/Velidreth Shoulder piece
3 Agility ROBUST with Gold weapon Enchants
2 Hundings Bows with Precise traits.
Food/Drink= Dubious Cameron Throne.
Fully self buffed I have around 3500 weapon damage and 75% Crit. I'm also using the warrior mundus stone.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

as a Bow Main user i need to keep people AWAY from me.
eso does not provide that ability for us Bow users.
that basicly kills Bow as your main weapon.

There is Beast trap, Magnum shot, Barrage, Expedition from Dodge-roll, Bows have the tools, we are all just fools. :P

Barrage? Perhaps you mean Arrow Spray, ie Acid Spray/Bombard?

Regardless none of these take players out of gap close range so you are not going to keep anyone off you.

More importantly though I don't think keeping people away is that big of an issue. The bigger issue is snare while casting Snipe, and lower healing power because of lower weapon damage. As stated many times elsewhere the base weapon damage of bows should be brought up and skills should be adjusted to compensate. Although given the discrepancy in damage output I doubt you would really need to adjust skills.

Yeah Bombard/Acid spray that's the B word I'm looking for (Thank you). And yes gap closers exist, and can be an issue for mag toons too which is why you should try to engage on your terms and with terrain advantage. The tools are out there to make good bow builds for off meta playstyles. I think before we ask for wanton buffs/nerfs we as aplayer base should probe deeper than the skin deep meta and find builds that work for us, and learn how to use them. I have not for instance seen Dk archers taking massive advantage of the Swamp raider set, (Which i plan to at some point make a stam Dk archer but i need that dang-ol master bow first.)

Oh trust me I'm very successful with my bow builds. However certainly for PVE dps they are not really competitive, albeit entirely able to complete content. Currently the state lends itself towards stam melee dps being highly advantaged over anything else, magicka offer destro ults though which still gets them in the door.

yea...thats the problem...bows should be able to be on both bars and be just as viable as magicka builds with staff on both bars

barbarian340 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

as a Bow Main user i need to keep people AWAY from me.
eso does not provide that ability for us Bow users.
that basicly kills Bow as your main weapon.

There is Beast trap, Magnum shot, Barrage, Expedition from Dodge-roll, Bows have the tools, we are all just fools. :P

Barrage? Perhaps you mean Arrow Spray, ie Acid Spray/Bombard?

Regardless none of these take players out of gap close range so you are not going to keep anyone off you.

More importantly though I don't think keeping people away is that big of an issue. The bigger issue is snare while casting Snipe, and lower healing power because of lower weapon damage. As stated many times elsewhere the base weapon damage of bows should be brought up and skills should be adjusted to compensate. Although given the discrepancy in damage output I doubt you would really need to adjust skills.

Yeah Bombard/Acid spray that's the B word I'm looking for (Thank you). And yes gap closers exist, and can be an issue for mag toons too which is why you should try to engage on your terms and with terrain advantage. The tools are out there to make good bow builds for off meta playstyles. I think before we ask for wanton buffs/nerfs we as aplayer base should probe deeper than the skin deep meta and find builds that work for us, and learn how to use them. I have not for instance seen Dk archers taking massive advantage of the Swamp raider set, (Which i plan to at some point make a stam Dk archer but i need that dang-ol master bow first.)

Oh trust me I'm very successful with my bow builds. However certainly for PVE dps they are not really competitive, albeit entirely able to complete content. Currently the state lends itself towards stam melee dps being highly advantaged over anything else, magicka offer destro ults though which still gets them in the door.

yea...thats the problem...bows should be able to be on both bars and be just as viable as magicka builds with staff on both bars

Viable isn't the right choice of words although I don't disagree with the sentiment, bow is viable it just isn't competitive in the marjority of content. If we exclude PVP for the moment for most players, and consider only PVE dps, Bow/Bow compares favorably with most magicka. Not necessarily better, just favorably there is less of a gap in most circumstances.

Bow/Bow suffers because it is stam and is the worst setup for stam for most content. Not because it's not viable, its just simply far enough behind that people don't want to bring it. In groups with optimal stam support sets ie Alkosh, NMG, Sunder and Morag Tong, Bow/Bow should perform as good or better than Magicka. It simply doesn't offer anything particularly useful, range DPS isn't necessary or even desired for the majority of content. The advantages of ranged dps are so subtle in design that the proposed inherent danger of melee appears almost mythical.


Beyond the lack of very useful support from other weapons, Hawk Eye is the killer of bow main bar. It is a good passive for people who are trying to focus bow main bar, but also forces Bow/Bow in order to not lose stacks.

JobooAGS wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

barbarian340 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

as a Bow Main user i need to keep people AWAY from me.
eso does not provide that ability for us Bow users.
that basicly kills Bow as your main weapon.

There is Beast trap, Magnum shot, Barrage, Expedition from Dodge-roll, Bows have the tools, we are all just fools. :P

Barrage? Perhaps you mean Arrow Spray, ie Acid Spray/Bombard?

Regardless none of these take players out of gap close range so you are not going to keep anyone off you.

More importantly though I don't think keeping people away is that big of an issue. The bigger issue is snare while casting Snipe, and lower healing power because of lower weapon damage. As stated many times elsewhere the base weapon damage of bows should be brought up and skills should be adjusted to compensate. Although given the discrepancy in damage output I doubt you would really need to adjust skills.

Yeah Bombard/Acid spray that's the B word I'm looking for (Thank you). And yes gap closers exist, and can be an issue for mag toons too which is why you should try to engage on your terms and with terrain advantage. The tools are out there to make good bow builds for off meta playstyles. I think before we ask for wanton buffs/nerfs we as aplayer base should probe deeper than the skin deep meta and find builds that work for us, and learn how to use them. I have not for instance seen Dk archers taking massive advantage of the Swamp raider set, (Which i plan to at some point make a stam Dk archer but i need that dang-ol master bow first.)

Oh trust me I'm very successful with my bow builds. However certainly for PVE dps they are not really competitive, albeit entirely able to complete content. Currently the state lends itself towards stam melee dps being highly advantaged over anything else, magicka offer destro ults though which still gets them in the door.

yea...thats the problem...bows should be able to be on both bars and be just as viable as magicka builds with staff on both bars

Viable isn't the right choice of words although I don't disagree with the sentiment, bow is viable it just isn't competitive in the marjority of content. If we exclude PVP for the moment for most players, and consider only PVE dps, Bow/Bow compares favorably with most magicka. Not necessarily better, just favorably there is less of a gap in most circumstances.

Bow/Bow suffers because it is stam and is the worst setup for stam for most content. Not because it's not viable, its just simply far enough behind that people don't want to bring it. In groups with optimal stam support sets ie Alkosh, NMG, Sunder and Morag Tong, Bow/Bow should perform as good or better than Magicka. It simply doesn't offer anything particularly useful, range DPS isn't necessary or even desired for the majority of content. The advantages of ranged dps are so subtle in design that the proposed inherent danger of melee appears almost mythical.


Beyond the lack of very useful support from other weapons, Hawk Eye is the killer of bow main bar. It is a good passive for people who are trying to focus bow main bar, but also forces Bow/Bow in order to not lose stacks.

So how would you make bow/bow competitive?

So one of the primary issues in the balance is the stam pen sets and how they boost stam DPS, Mag reaches pen fine due to their passives but don't have equivalent sets to boost their output. Bow/Bow is slightly behind Mag, and further behind stam in general and offer nothing unique. Bow ultimate isn't really that much better with Bow Mainhand, than back bar.

I propose changing either Hawk Eye to 3% but allow for 10 stacks instead of 5, and add a % damage done debuff to target in some form, or change Focused Aim.

I think Focused Aim would be a good option as currently Focused Aim pulls essentially the same dps as Lethal Arrow, due to the fact that Lethal Arrow always applies poison status debuff. Adding a unique debuff to Focused Aim would encourage bringing at least one Bow main hand for fully optimized groups. If the unique debuff increased all damage from beyond 10-15m then it would also serve to boost Magicka dps slightly. Not to exceed Melee setups, but certainly not to be 10k behind melee setups on group parses.