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Two requested changes (for nightblade and templar)

Lynx7386
Lynx7386
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Everyone knows nightblades took a pretty big hit with the siphoning attacks changes pre-morrowind, specifically nightblade tanks. The new siphoning strikes system just doesnt work - it restores too few resources, and is not predictable or rewarding enough to even bother slotting as a tank. It may be decent as a dps or healer tool, but that's the end of it. Without the old siphoning strikes, nightblade tanks can no longer sustain reliably during boss fights or harder content.
Similarly, templar tanks have terrible stamina sustain: Repentance is their only tool for it, and it doesnt work when corpses arent around - that means most boss fights and whenever you have more than one templar in a group using it. Templars cannot activate the synergy from luminous/blazing shard to aid with their own stamina sustain, either.

So I'd like to suggest the addition of minor stamina steal for both of these classes. Currently minor magicka steal is provided by resto staff via siphon spirit, templars via restoring aura/radiant aura, and destruction staff via elemental drain. Similarly, minor life steal is provided by resto staff via siphon health/quick siphon, undaunted via blood altar and morphs, and wardens via leeching vines. Despite this, there are still no sources of stamina steal in the game.

For the suggested changes:

Nightblade: Dark Shades
The dark shades morph of summon shade now applies minor stamina steal for 4 seconds to enemies hit by the shades, causing attackers to restore X stamina whenever they deal damage to it.

The other morph for summon shade (shadow image) has it's uses as a ranged damage dealer, and it allows the nightblade to teleport to it's location for free (on top of the minor maim the shade applies with attacks). Dark shades, on the other hand, doesnt do any additional damage (it's cut in half due to two shades instead of one), and only applies minor maim slightly faster to groups of mobs than the single shade would (and far less quickly than 1h/sh heroic slash does). This morph is currently less useful than it should be, and adding minor stamina steal to the shades' debuffs on enemies would improve the ability for all nightblades. Tank nightblades now have a way to sustain stamina while blocking and without having to rely on light attack spam or wait 20 seconds for siphoning attacks to end and give bulk resource return (tanks already have refreshing path down, causing damage to enemies that the shades would be applying stamina steal to, thus restoring stamina - or perhaps through the shades themselves as they attack enemies). Healer nightblades now have a way to restore stamina to damage dealers in their group, allowing for better group support. stamina dps nightblades get slightly improved sustain without having to heavy attack as much.

Templar: Repentance
Alter this ability's functionality entirely. No longer requires corpses: Instead, applies minor stamina steal to all enemies in range, rather than minor magicka steal (which the other morph provides). Could either also apply minor lifesteal or have a 25m range like the opposing morph to remain on par with it (base range is 12 meters, radiant aura boosts that to 25 for magicka steal). Having the lifesteal would keep it as a health/stamina restoring ability just as it is currently, but less bursty and without the necessity for corpses.

PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Nox_Noir
    Nox_Noir
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    Sounds great. Fixes some problems for Nightblade and gives it some support capability that it desperately needs.
    Tho, I would suggest changing Malevolent offerings instead to something that adds stam steal, since it seems to be meant as a support skill but is just utterly useless the way it is implemented right now (one of the stupidest skills in the game, who needs a single target heal we have to target manually!?) Turn this into a ground circle that gives mobs stam steal and maybe a synergy, how does that sound?

    As for repentance I'm totally with you on that one, this skill is just butchered. It used to be such a great and rewarding way for healers to support the group, one of the few things DD's really noticed, now it's merely a selfish tool it's ridiculous.
    In it's current form it is almost completely useless for tanking because of how very situational it is.
    Making it a minor stamina steal version of radiant aura sounds great.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    The class based sustain changes were not balance when morrowind hit. Siphoning was butchered and made into a tool that fitted well in a nb dps rotation. It was not fine for nb tanks, so they disappeared. Some classes even managed a boost...

    Repentance also took a massive hit and that skill is also dire

    I'd rather see a change where executioner proc'd on dodge, either via blur for tanks, or dodge roll for non tanks. Right now it's buggy and does not proc anyway if you kill something with an assassination skill. Would help NB tanks a lot, and probably not make much difference to dps role. Might be easier to change it than fix...
    Edited by aeowulf on February 10, 2018 8:35AM
  • Lynx7386
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    aeowulf wrote: »
    The class based sustain changes were not balance when morrowind hit. Siphoning was butchered and made into a tool that fitted well in a nb dps rotation. It was not fine for nb tanks, so they disappeared. Some classes even managed a boost...

    Repentance also took a massive hit and that skill is also dire

    I'd rather see a change where executioner proc'd on dodge, either via blur for tanks, or dodge roll for non tanks. Right now it's buggy and does not proc anyway if you kill something with an assassination skill. Would help NB tanks a lot, and probably not make much difference to dps role. Might be easier to change it than fix...

    I dont think that'd help much, considering executioner restores your highest resource and even after the changes most nightblade tanks focus on magicka rather than stamina (because all of our tanking utility is magicka based - healing, defensive buffs, enemy debuffs, etc.)
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • aeowulf
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    thats easy to fix, you'd just restore the one with the current lowest value
  • TheNightflame
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    the addition of minor stamina steal to the game, if using the same numbers as magika steal, would necessitate a lot of tankimng balance changes though :/
  • usmcjdking
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    I like the idea of minor stamina steal but there are a multitude of stam return abilities in the game already that would make it wildly imbalanced.
    0331
    0602
  • Silver_Strider
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    I like the idea of minor stamina steal but there are a multitude of stam return abilities in the game already that would make it wildly imbalanced.

    Name them because outside of the Helping Hands passive, I can't think of 1 ability that restores Stamina that doesn't have a magic equivalent.
    Argonian forever
  • aeowulf
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    the addition of minor stamina steal to the game, if using the same numbers as magika steal, would necessitate a lot of tankimng balance changes though :/

    Ice staff uses magicka to tank, minor magicka steal exists so...
  • ascan7
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    I think that a starting point for repetance would be being able to use the proc set corpses, like the dwemer sphere from engine guardian set. I don't know why they took that away.
  • Silver_Strider
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    ascan7 wrote: »
    I think that a starting point for repetance would be being able to use the proc set corpses, like the dwemer sphere from engine guardian set. I don't know why they took that away.

    I've heard rumors that the Hunger spawned by the Defiler set can actually be Repentanced but I'm sure that's just an oversight that's likely for the chopping block at a moments notice.
    Argonian forever
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    ascan7 wrote: »
    I think that a starting point for repetance would be being able to use the proc set corpses, like the dwemer sphere from engine guardian set. I don't know why they took that away.

    I've heard rumors that the Hunger spawned by the Defiler set can actually be Repentanced but I'm sure that's just an oversight that's likely for the chopping block at a moments notice.

    It can be, just in the 1 second as it is dieing and despawning. Tested it myself. It is neat and would be at best and extra 3k Stam every 5 seconds. Nothing too huge and you have such a small window to do it, a lot of the time, you will miss it.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 11, 2018 10:19AM
  • KingExecration
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    ascan7 wrote: »
    I think that a starting point for repetance would be being able to use the proc set corpses, like the dwemer sphere from engine guardian set. I don't know why they took that away.

    I've heard rumors that the Hunger spawned by the Defiler set can actually be Repentanced but I'm sure that's just an oversight that's likely for the chopping block at a moments notice.

    It can be, just in the 1 second as it is dieing and despawning. Tested it myself. It is neat and would be at best and extra 3k Stam every 5 seconds. Nothing too huge and you have such a small window to do it, a lot of the time, you will miss it.

    I miss the days of stam and magplar being able to offer extra sustain from running engine guardian with repent, such a sweet synergy that was butchered lol.
  • victoriana-blue
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    So I'd like to suggest the addition of minor stamina steal for both of these classes. [snip]

    Nightblade: Dark Shades
    The dark shades morph of summon shade now applies minor stamina steal for 4 seconds to enemies hit by the shades, causing attackers to restore X stamina whenever they deal damage to it. [...]

    Dark shades, on the other hand, doesnt do any additional damage (it's cut in half due to two shades instead of one), and only applies minor maim slightly faster to groups of mobs than the single shade would (and far less quickly than 1h/sh heroic slash does). This morph is currently less useful than it should be, and adding minor stamina steal to the shades' debuffs on enemies would improve the ability for all nightblades. Tank nightblades now have a way to sustain stamina while blocking and without having to rely on light attack spam or wait 20 seconds for siphoning attacks to end and give bulk resource return (tanks already have refreshing path down, causing damage to enemies that the shades would be applying stamina steal to, thus restoring stamina - or perhaps through the shades themselves as they attack enemies). Healer nightblades now have a way to restore stamina to damage dealers in their group, allowing for better group support. stamina dps nightblades get slightly improved sustain without having to heavy attack as much.
    Stamina steal sounds awesome and would fit into the "restore resources by actively doing something"/"stop permablocking" model ZOS is pushing. I just don't think dark shades is the place for it. Maybe if veiled strike went to assassination we could get a designed-for-single-target ability in the shadow tree, like a stamina version of elemental drain? Or have one shade target the enemy you heavy attack while the second shade goes to the nearest enemy within 10m?

    Dark shades needs help, but I think its biggest problem is targeting: pet AI sends them at any enemy you heavy attack, and on a tank that makes dark shades an expensive single target ability. As a tank, depending on the fight you might be heavy attacking every 4 seconds, or every 20 seconds; the only way to hit 2 enemies within 4 seconds is to only heavy attack, with maybe two cancelled abilities, and no time to dodge or move around. (I don't think lightning heavies send pets to multiple targets?) And the shades are generally close enough that if one goes down to enemy aoe the other one isn't far behind, so it's not like the second shade keeps the debuff going when the first shade disappears.

    So we have two shades, but we can only use them on one enemy at a time, and changing the effect to stamina steal doesn't fix that. Maybe this is easier with a mouse & keyboard, but that doesn't help console folks.
    CP 750+
    Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account
  • Lynx7386
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    I think the bigger issue is that shades offer no utility and not significant enough damage to be a viable morph. Shadow image applies the same debuff, at range, just as frequently, and has the utility of a mobility spell that allows you to teleport. I often throw down shadow image in fights where I know movement is going to be an issue, and I can use it to teleport out of harm or to the boss when the boss moves to that location. It takes some forethought, but at least it's useful.

    Dark shades offers no extra damage (the two shades deal half damage compared to the shadow image), and no extra utility (because they often attack the same target, you're not spreading maim any faster than you would with shadow image or heroic slash).

    AI isnt the issue, it's the fact that dark shades is an absolutely useless morph right now. Nobody uses it for damage, the other morph is better for utility, and there's really no reason to use it outside of those perks.

    Maybe if the shades' attacks could proc leeching strikes, weapon enchantments, etc. - that could be useful. Make it so that the game considers the shades' attacks to be light attacks from the nightblade, so you're essentially able to mash out light attacks without dropping block or having to actually swing your own weapon. That on it's own would definitely improve the usefulness of leeching strikes, because you could then hold up block while you have two shades stabbing away at the target and giving you stamina/health back on each hit.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Domander
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    I agree the new siphoning is complete crap.
    Edited by Domander on February 12, 2018 6:03AM
  • Qbiken
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    Are we talking PvE or PvP here? I can´t talk much for the PvP part of Nightblade since I don´t play Nightblade outside bombblade on rare occasions.

    But regarding PvE magicka Nightblade got one of the best sustainability in the game right now. Siphoning attacks is a really good sustaining tool in trials and dungeons. Magblade got:

    * Cheap spammable, which also acts as a self-heal, and if choosing one morph you also act like a semi-healer (funnel health/swallow soul)
    * Hardest hitting non-ultimate/non-execute in the game (spectral bow)
    * Hardest hitting execute (Impale. Killers blade hit as hard for stambuilds)
    * Good sustaining tool (siphoning attacks/leaching strikes)

    And with todays patch NB got a buff where spectral bow charges are saved. Magblades are becoming god-blades this patch
    Immortal Redeemer - Gryphon Heart - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer - The Unchained
    And apparently still not a PvE player


    Characters:
    EU
    DC - Octius Ciel - Magicka Sorcerer - Breton
    DC - Evelina Septim - Magicka Templar - Breton
    EP - Josephine Tharn - Magicka Templar - Breton
    DC - Zireael the White Flame - Stamina Sorcerer - Bosmer
    EP - Qbi-One-Kenobi -Stamina DK - Argonian
    AD - Anconeus - Magicka Nightblade - High Elf
    EP - Cirilla Élen Riannon - Magica Dragonknight - Dark Elf
    AD - Fifty Shades of Cloak - Stamina Nightblade - Imperial
    AD - Alinare Larentius - StaminaTemplar - Redguard
    DC - The Alt-Knight - Stamina Dragonknight - Nord
    DC - Féreldir - Magicka Warden - Argonian
    AD - Kuvirá - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - 1vX Material - Stamina Warden - Orc
    EP - Fenrir the Windwalker - Stamina Sorcerer - Imperial
    EP - Q_Q Mancer Stamina Necromancer - Imperial

    NA
    EP - Sister Q - Stamina Sorcerer - Nord
    EP - Queue but the ueue is silent - Nightblade - Dark Elf

  • Lynx7386
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    Are we talking PvE or PvP here? I can´t talk much for the PvP part of Nightblade since I don´t play Nightblade outside bombblade on rare occasions.

    But regarding PvE magicka Nightblade got one of the best sustainability in the game right now. Siphoning attacks is a really good sustaining tool in trials and dungeons. Magblade got:

    * Cheap spammable, which also acts as a self-heal, and if choosing one morph you also act like a semi-healer (funnel health/swallow soul)
    * Hardest hitting non-ultimate/non-execute in the game (spectral bow)
    * Hardest hitting execute (Impale. Killers blade hit as hard for stambuilds)
    * Good sustaining tool (siphoning attacks/leaching strikes)

    And with todays patch NB got a buff where spectral bow charges are saved. Magblades are becoming god-blades this patch

    Were talking about tanking, not dps
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • aeowulf
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    ascan7 wrote: »
    I think that a starting point for repetance would be being able to use the proc set corpses, like the dwemer sphere from engine guardian set. I don't know why they took that away.

    I've heard rumors that the Hunger spawned by the Defiler set can actually be Repentanced but I'm sure that's just an oversight that's likely for the chopping block at a moments notice.

    It can be, just in the 1 second as it is dieing and despawning. Tested it myself. It is neat and would be at best and extra 3k Stam every 5 seconds. Nothing too huge and you have such a small window to do it, a lot of the time, you will miss it.

    This is pretty comparable to the same window Executioner passive has :(
  • BroanBeast1215
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    TBH they just need to revert the changes to repentance.
  • Neoauspex
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    Us: <makes reasonable suggestion>

    ZoS: <nods> "Repentance now gives minor nothing steal, which grants the caster absolutely nothing."
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