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what does animation canceling even do
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
"Objectively' meaning my words are not actually false, we just have differing opinions, okay, good to know.
You called it a bug.
It is not a bug.
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭well the obvious solution is to make all animations one second long, with the current one second invisible global cooldown on abilities. This way, even if you cancel your ongoing animation, your character will sit still 0.5 seconds until next ability.
Erm ... isn't that exactly how it works right now?
If you block-cancel a skill, you still have to wait out the 1-second GCD before you can fire off your next skill.1 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
"Skill", yes. But not a light attack, Block, or Roll.LiquidPony wrote: »Erm ... isn't that exactly how it works right now?
If you block-cancel a skill, you still have to wait out the 1-second GCD before you can fire off your next skill.
The purpose of AC is to increase DPS and provide mobility, as well as options.
While I personally think its silly; (this would not fly in classical D&D settings, since Somatic Components are required for casting any spell, and interrupting them would result in the failed cast of said spell), this is not D&D.
If the Dev's ruled it as legitimate, it doesnt matter what we think.
Unless there are a large majority (51%+) of players who are willing to complain about it, it will never be changed.
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭well the obvious solution is to make all animations one second long, with the current one second invisible global cooldown on abilities. This way, even if you cancel your ongoing animation, your character will sit still 0.5 seconds until next ability.
This is essentially how works already. Its inportant to understand that some abilities when left alone have recovery animations that may animate / extend beyond the gcd. This is ultimately inconsequential since instant cast abilities resolve instantly when activated, immediately triggering the gcd. During the follow through animation (outward sway of surpise attack, back draw of puncture etc) you are free as a player to give reaction commands that do not qualify as abilities, these actions are bar swapping, blocking, roll dodge and bash. These actions are essentially off the gcd because the developers wanted to ensure player agency was always at the forefront of combat and that you would never be locked into an animation of a skill that you already successfully casted on a target. The result of this is that taking such actions cuts off the recovery animation of said skills resulting in what is perceived as a cancel.
And a small subset of misinformed uneducated players believe that this visual oddity is a bug that of which with the mystical powers of macros and exploits enable the use of multiple skills to fire off in 1 second. These people should be aptly ignored. Your initial observation is entirely accurate. Block or bar swap "canceling" etc after casting an ability does absolutely nothing for speeding up the frequency of ability use since that is specifically governed by the GCD. Weaving light attacks with abilities however is specifically desinged to function the way it does and should be practiced.Edited by exeeter702 on February 10, 2018 11:54PM6 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
"Objectively' meaning my words are not actually false, we just have differing opinions, okay, good to know.
You called it a bug.
It is not a bug.
Indeed. Bugs are the result of unintended software errors in the development stage. As it works exactly as it was programmed to, it's not a bug. It's an unintended side-effect of functioning mechanics that the developers did not foresee and its use abuses this functionality for gameplay advantages. The proper term for it would be "exploit".5 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
"Objectively' meaning my words are not actually false, we just have differing opinions, okay, good to know.
You called it a bug.
It is not a bug.
Indeed. Bugs are the result of unintended software errors in the development stage. As it works exactly as it was programmed to, it's not a bug. It's an unintended side-effect of functioning mechanics that the developers did not foresee and its use abuses this functionality for gameplay advantages. The proper term for it would be "exploit".
It's a bug in the simplest of terms if you're not being a overly picky jerk that wants to flaunt their picky ways
A bug can easily be as simple as something not working as intended. This is not working as intended.Hoping for more playable races0 -
klowdy1✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
As far as adding in extra attacks, it is. The devs coded it in to allow for defensive maneuvers, not to twitch in extra light attacks. They cannot remove it without also taking away evasiveness, which is why it is still a thing. If they could, attack weaving would be gone.0 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Animation cancelling merely triggers people who can't do it and think that being able to do it will add 10-15k DPS to their rotation (hint: it won't).
And yet the people who can do it still spend time on the forums mocking those who can’t do it, and calling them things like trash and lazy.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
As far as adding in extra attacks, it is. The devs coded it in to allow for defensive maneuvers, not to twitch in extra light attacks. They cannot remove it without also taking away evasiveness, which is why it is still a thing. If they could, attack weaving would be gone.
Weaving attacking in with abilities is specifically desinged the way it is for a reason. It is this games analogue to white attacks. "Twitching in light attacks" doesny make sense. You are only ever afforded a single light attack and 1 ability per GCD which is very specifically intended.
Light attack weaving has nothing to do with the desire to allow player freedom for defensive actions. That has to do with block dodging bar swaping and bashing being allowed at any time off the GCD and doing so cuts off the recovery animation of attacks.1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »Animation cancelling merely triggers people who can't do it and think that being able to do it will add 10-15k DPS to their rotation (hint: it won't).
And yet the people who can do it still spend time on the forums mocking those who can’t do it, and calling them things like trash and lazy.
The majority of people that "do it" started doing it without even realizing it was a thing.3 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In dont expect you tonread through this but as part of trying to fight the food fight in extinguishing the misinformation and confusion from spreading ill post this again as i have other times.
Follow me here as i really hope to make this clear for you and anyone else not in the know or trying to challenge why it shouldn't exist or that it is a simple removal. It needs to exist. And by virtue of that it can not be removed. Excuse the lengthy post.
There are 3 types of abilities in eso in regards to resolution points which the point at which the client and server communicate and resolve the ability. Basically when its criteria is met for the ability to fire. They are as follows..
Instant cast - surprise attack, flame lash, low slash
Channeled - jabs, jesus beam, soul assault
Cast timed - uppercut, crystal frags
And with these ability types there is the universal 1 second global coold down in eso. This governs all ability frequency use. It is for this reason, you canot increase the amount of skills you are able to cast within a certain time frame. This governs everything, and ability animations have nothing to do with it.
Instant cast abilities as the name implies, resolve inatantly. This means the second the ability is cast, assuming the criteria for casting the ability is met, is when you are no longer bound to or have to commit to the skill in any form. The ability resolves and then the game determines elements like projectile trajectory, crit, miss, dodge, block, damage calculation etc.
Channeled skills like in most if not all other mmos ever, have their values spread over the course of a channeld cast. At any point during the channel you can cancel it and thus lose out on its full value. Channled abilities resolve instantly in that you are charged the price of the skill instantly when the criteria to cast the ability is met. All channeled abilities are desinged and tuned to have their full duration fit evenly within the GCD or they have a .1 second modifier with a bonus damage tick at the end of the channel.
And for hard cast time abilities i will re post a statement that is entirely relevant here that i made a while back.
"
Most cast time abilites fit within the GCD and all abilities, cast time or instant will immediately trigger the GCD upon button press. What this means is cast time abilites will resolve right at the GCD refresh, this is why when you see uppercut used back to back, you never see the recovery animation (character sways back due to wepons weight) because that animation is visual flare being shown after the ability successfully completes its cast time. If you were locked into that recovery animation, you would be unfairly punished if for example you successfully aim, complete the cast and connect an uppercut on an opponent and you see a snipe flying your way and are forced to eat it because you cant block until your character finishes recovering from the animation.
So how do you address that?
Do you make the skill look ridiculous by having it not have any type of follow through visual?
Do you make it look equally ridiculous AND visually unintuitive by speeding up the existing animation of uppercut (cast time PLUS follow through animation) and squeeze it all within thr GCD resulting in the resolution point where damage is calculated being placed at the very end of the animation?
ZOS intentionally ommitted things like cast bars, channeled bars, and a GCD hot (action, ability) bar indicator for ehat can only be assumed was an attempt to distance themselves from more traditonal post wow mmos. It was important they be billed as a game that plays fundementally different from those games, which to be fair it still does, but having the aformentioned ui elements would clearly put on display the similarities to other mmos they were trying to distance themselves from. Pc addons easily reveal the truth of eso's mmo combat roots, and this is information that MANY console players are oblivious too and why such misinformation spreads around this topic.
Animation canceling is a product of ZOS's insistence with creating an active combat system familair to elderscrolls fans, and one which at any given time lets the player react to his / environment, while trying to maintian online server balance between abilities. And using this was done by binding themselves to traditional tried and true mmo online combat standards such as a governing GCD that allows abilities to be designed and blanced under an umbrella that makes sense and doesnt create a logistical nightmare when you have 40 plus players on the screen.
Its not cheating
Its not an exploit
Its not a bug
Its not an intended system or feature
It does not break the rules if eso's combat system, on the contrary, AC governs those rules5 -
KingYogi415✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Simply tapping light attack before your skills adds 3-4k dps to your rotation.
Very easy learn, hard to master.
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Lynnessa✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Its not cheating
Its not an exploit
Its not a bug
Its not an intended system or feature
Seems like I remember when it was sort of suggested by devs that it wasn't originally intended but once they found out about it it was intended. In other words, it was too late to go back and fix it but they wouldn't fix it even if they could, so so there.
Thinking about it always sort of makes me chuckle and ask myself why they don't just remove (cancellable) animations from the game, or disable them in combat, or something (thereby saving resources, maybe reducing lag, and preventing some players' frustration). A truly new player, unless they spend a lot of time outside the game doing research on the game, would have no clue about skill priority or animation cancelling--and before anyone points out that a player should research outside resources, I'd suggest that a truly well-designed game should be self-contained. Also makes me wonder if new content is balanced around animation cancelling rotations--which in my opinion would be BS.
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
Because the designers have specifically and explicitly stated that certain actions need to have priority for their vision of a fast paced reactive combat is to work effectively. Thus intended. Thus not a bug.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
As far as adding in extra attacks, it is. The devs coded it in to allow for defensive maneuvers, not to twitch in extra light attacks. They cannot remove it without also taking away evasiveness, which is why it is still a thing. If they could, attack weaving would be gone.
Now light attack weaving is bug?
Guys, light attacks essentially fulfill the purpose of the passive "auto attacks" you see in almost all other MMORPGS. The difference here is that we actively apply them between skills. It's the reason why combat in ESO (for me, at least) is more engaging than combat in standard MMORPGs. In other MMORPGs, you click skills and your auto attacks (small melee/ranged attacks that add a little bit of damage) fire off on a timer during the global cool down. Educate yourselves:
https://www.engadget.com/2008/07/10/mmo-mmonkey-comparing-active-attack-and-auto-attack/
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?435944-Autoattack-is-tragedy&p=5878136#post58781364 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Its not cheating
Its not an exploit
Its not a bug
Its not an intended system or feature
Seems like I remember when it was sort of suggested by devs that it wasn't originally intended but once they found out about it it was intended. In other words, it was too late to go back and fix it but they wouldn't fix it even if they could, so so there.
Thinking about it always sort of makes me chuckle and ask myself why they don't just remove (cancellable) animations from the game, or disable them in combat, or something (thereby saving resources, maybe reducing lag, and preventing some players' frustration). A truly new player, unless they spend a lot of time outside the game doing research on the game, would have no clue about skill priority or animation cancelling--and before anyone points out that a player should research outside resources, I'd suggest that a truly well-designed game should be self-contained. Also makes me wonder if new content is balanced around animation cancelling rotations--which in my opinion would be BS.
This was never said by the devs, go back and find wrobels comment on youtube. They never said we cant fix it so its here to stay. I know the post is long but my previous post explains exactly why you can not remove cancellable animations.
Also there is no such thing as skill priority in this game. That is another massive misconception. Defensive actions and bar swap are not abilities and do not have higher priority, they simply are off the gcd for immediate use. Outside of that, every single ability on your action bar follows the same set of rules in regards to when they can be used and when they cant.
And lastly, anyone, as was the case with myself personally, who understands how often you are allowed to cast abilities and makes sure you are casting as often as you can, and realizes you can block an incoming attack no matter what you are doing will inadvertently learn about what many call animation canceling. It is not nearly asbl deep obtuse and complex as most would like to believe. Light attack weaving as well was something you quickly realize is a thing just by playing beyond a casual level.Edited by exeeter702 on February 11, 2018 6:19PM1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
As far as adding in extra attacks, it is. The devs coded it in to allow for defensive maneuvers, not to twitch in extra light attacks. They cannot remove it without also taking away evasiveness, which is why it is still a thing. If they could, attack weaving would be gone.
Now light attack weaving is bug?
Guys, light attacks essentially fulfill the purpose of the passive "auto attacks" you see in almost all other MMORPGS. The difference here is that we actively apply them between skills. It's the reason why combat in ESO (for me, at least) is more engaging than combat in standard MMORPGs. In other MMORPGs, you click skills and your auto attacks (small melee/ranged attacks that add a little bit of damage) fire off on a timer during the global cool down. Educate yourselves:
https://www.engadget.com/2008/07/10/mmo-mmonkey-comparing-active-attack-and-auto-attack/
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?435944-Autoattack-is-tragedy&p=5878136#post5878136
Im telling you, this is a gross uphill battle.1 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
As far as adding in extra attacks, it is. The devs coded it in to allow for defensive maneuvers, not to twitch in extra light attacks. They cannot remove it without also taking away evasiveness, which is why it is still a thing. If they could, attack weaving would be gone.
Now light attack weaving is bug?
Guys, light attacks essentially fulfill the purpose of the passive "auto attacks" you see in almost all other MMORPGS. The difference here is that we actively apply them between skills. It's the reason why combat in ESO (for me, at least) is more engaging than combat in standard MMORPGs. In other MMORPGs, you click skills and your auto attacks (small melee/ranged attacks that add a little bit of damage) fire off on a timer during the global cool down. Educate yourselves:
https://www.engadget.com/2008/07/10/mmo-mmonkey-comparing-active-attack-and-auto-attack/
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?435944-Autoattack-is-tragedy&p=5878136#post5878136
Im telling you, this is a gross uphill battle.
Yeah.
I mean, I get it: due to the popularity of the Elder Scrolls series, ESO is going to pull in a lot of people who aren't familiar with MMORPGs. But seriously folks... If you don't understand the purpose of light attacking or animation cancelling, don't just wave them off as a "bug" that the devs have to "fix." Take the time to find out why they exist, and what function they serve. They're core features of the game's combat system. Light attack weaving in particular is half the reason why combat is so fun in this game. Do you have any idea how boring it is to queue up a bunch of skills and watch your cool-down timers, while your character throws in auto attacks that you have ZERO control over? I do, because I played WoW for a year and LOTRO for eight years. I could never go back to an auto-attacking combat system after playing ESO. 4 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »Animation cancelling merely triggers people who can't do it and think that being able to do it will add 10-15k DPS to their rotation (hint: it won't).
And yet the people who can do it still spend time on the forums mocking those who can’t do it, and calling them things like trash and lazy.
Mocking? Maybe, I guess.
I wouldn't call anyone who "can't" animation cancel trash, but lazy is probably appropriate if a bit rude.
I would just say that anyone who won't do animation canceling (because if you can light attack and you can bar swap, you can animation cancel) is uninterested in getting better, for whatever the reason.1 -
cbaudersub17_ESO✭✭✭.exeeter702 wrote: »Its not cheating
Its not an exploit
Its not a bug
Its not an intended system or feature
Seems like I remember when it was sort of suggested by devs that it wasn't originally intended but once they found out about it it was intended. In other words, it was too late to go back and fix it but they wouldn't fix it even if they could, so so there.
One of the first posts...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/85594/major-combat-flaw-animation-canceling-damage-stacking-devs-please-look-here
Took a better part of year to get an official response other than 'looking into it'.
Edited by cbaudersub17_ESO on February 11, 2018 11:05PM0 -
hamgatan✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »People who whine and complain about animation canceling did not arrive at that conclusion via rational thought process. They got there because they were butthurt about getting wrecked in PvP and need something to blame.
The anti-animation canceling crowd is driven by pure stupid emotion.
What an utter load of crap.
Ani cancelling has been toxic af in cyro since 2014. Removing from the game is a blessing as there will no longer be a distinct advantage for macro slicing cheats.
You're going to have more tears from trial runners whining they lose 2k dps.. Woo... BFD. I'd rather skill was returned to cyro than some hardcore trialler whining over 2k deeps on a trial they already melt with ease.
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|GM - The Bin Chicken Alliance | Aussie Dragon Slayers | Aedra | The Skooma Emporium | The Bus | The Bounty Hunters Guild |2 -
Zapzarap✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »People who whine and complain about animation canceling did not arrive at that conclusion via rational thought process. They got there because they were butthurt about getting wrecked in PvP and need something to blame.
The anti-animation canceling crowd is driven by pure stupid emotion.
What an utter load of crap.
Ani cancelling has been toxic af in cyro since 2014. Removing from the game is a blessing as there will no longer be a distinct advantage for macro slicing cheats.
You're going to have more tears from trial runners whining they lose 2k dps.. Woo... BFD. I'd rather skill was returned to cyro than some hardcore trialler whining over 2k deeps on a trial they already melt with ease.
100% you do AC aswell. even if you are the noob of the universe in this game, you do it.
THE IMPORTATN THING of AC is NOT beeing stuck in an animation if you need to block an incomming attack or something else. Just imagine beeing stuck in templar beem, or something else that takes a longer time... and than you need to block/doge.
I know, most of the people here only have one opinon which is "I can not do it as well as others, sooo. ITS A BUG!"
But just imagine that you have to do every animation till the end, before you can block, doge or something else... this game would be broken, PvP would be even worse and the dynamik combat system is gone.
Also, just a side note: They removed it for a test on a PTS patch like 2-3 years ago. 2 weeks later they put the system back in place because everyone sayed its ***.Rolle: Tank
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zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It can if you happen to block the moment you were to receive the recovery tick.
I've found block cancelling can still beneficial most of the time, but, IMO, it's not worth because of margin is so small. The benefits will be offset by a higher rate of error/fatigue for most players. I still do it out of habit, even when I don't want to.Edited by zyk on February 12, 2018 5:48PM0 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I find block cancelling (or bash cancelling, rather), useful for breaking some animations and adding some damage.
I havent analysed it deeply, it just 'works' for me, and also it gives me something to do in a fight. I play stamina and heavy attack-weave all the time though so I dont run out of stamina easily.
Also, I find that sometimes if I click block it doesnt immediately block but rather waits for an animation to finish. If I immediately bash however and keep holding the block button, the block is instant.0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭
there's a difference between canceling an animation so you can cast another ability faster, and interrupting an ability to go defensive. In that case you don't cancel the animation, you cancel the channel.THE IMPORTATN THING of AC is NOT beeing stuck in an animation if you need to block an incomming attack or something else. Just imagine beeing stuck in templar beem, or something else that takes a longer time... and than you need to block/doge.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
there's a difference between canceling an animation so you can cast another ability faster, and interrupting an ability to go defensive. In that case you don't cancel the animation, you cancel the channel.THE IMPORTATN THING of AC is NOT beeing stuck in an animation if you need to block an incomming attack or something else. Just imagine beeing stuck in templar beem, or something else that takes a longer time... and than you need to block/doge.
Except as to the first point, it is impossible to cancel a recovery animation to use anothet ability faster. To the later point, his example was not a proper one as yes in the case of templar beam or other channeled abilities you are canceling the channel to block or whatever which is not a an "animation cancel". His actual point was that it IS important to not be rooted in a recovery animation that plays out over the GCD such as uppercuts weighted backsway recovery which animates when the GCD is refreshed and the player is proper allowed to use another ability. Or when you successfully land an instant cast ability and want to block the incoming snipe from off screen but you cant because your character has to finish following through with the recovery animation.1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Mind enlightening me on why it's false? Not that i'll believe you but at least try
There are countless explanations that i personally have provided over many threads going into great detail.
I dont care to do it again. It is objectively not a bug.
"Objectively' meaning my words are not actually false, we just have differing opinions, okay, good to know.
You called it a bug.
It is not a bug.
Jury's still out on that.
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