Nightblade tanks need some love

ccfeeling · February 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

In dungeons I can only recommend vicious ophidian on a tank.

Despite the tooltip saying that it restores stamina when you kill something, it also restores it when a group member kills something, making it give basically infinite stamina as long as something dies every once in a while...

Non DLC Hm , yes, even no tank

Its not work in DLC HM big fight unless u have orb n shard support at all time

Non trial*
Real good tank has to control everything alone without anyone support, this is the sustain abilities stress combat
Thats the real difference between dk/warden and Non dk/warden

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Arobain wrote: »

nightblade tanks are completely fine, it just seems you arent too creative, thats ok though, not everyone is

You're posting nerf threads about beetles, I'm not really going to take your word on anything.

Arobain · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

nightblade tanks are completely fine, it just seems you arent too creative, thats ok though, not everyone is

You're posting nerf threads about beetles, I'm not really going to take your word on anything.

alright, i had my opinion, you have your opinion now, i'm fine with that, my nightblade tank works great, sorry you dont believe me

its just a shame that to you i'm completely un trustworthy because my opinion was and is different than yours

ccfeeling · February 2018

Arobain wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

nightblade tanks are completely fine, it just seems you arent too creative, thats ok though, not everyone is

You're posting nerf threads about beetles, I'm not really going to take your word on anything.

alright, i had my opinion, you have your opinion now, i'm fine with that, my nightblade tank works great, sorry you dont believe me

its just a shame that to you i'm completely un trustworthy because my opinion was and is different than yours

It's alright Aro , would you mind to share your build please , let's discuss together

Actually we are focusing on PVE enviroment , I hope you understand .

aeowulf · February 2018

Arobain wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

nightblade tanks are completely fine, it just seems you arent too creative, thats ok though, not everyone is

You're posting nerf threads about beetles, I'm not really going to take your word on anything.

alright, i had my opinion, you have your opinion now, i'm fine with that, my nightblade tank works great, sorry you dont believe me

its just a shame that to you i'm completely un trustworthy because my opinion was and is different than yours

It's not just one person your opinion is different than, it's a ton of people and you have not told us why. Until you do we cannot be educated. There are hundreds of posts about NB tanks being in a bad way, and you're disagreeing with them all without explanation. (this is fine, but you won't convince anyone to change their mind with that)

I too am also curious about the build and what content is being completed with it. I am going from my personal experience, particularly comparing to my DK & warden tanks, not having seen a single NB tank in finder in at least 6 months and the class polls that showed only 3% of NB's were tanks. Admitedly neither of the latter are proof, but they are indications of the state of the class.

There are a also few NB tank builds starting to crop up, from good sources like @woeler and @Alcast , with a disclaimer of 'only suitable for dungeons'. These guys spent a lot of time with tanking & builds respectively and you're going against what they have said, also without any explanation.

Honestly i'd love to be wrong about the class, and would love to be educated why NB tanks are fine, but education needs a 'why' as well otherwise it's brainwashing and can lead to false information. Also consider NB have always been in a bad place re crowd control and group utility, and have to rely on sets for these, but they had good (albeit somewhat random) resource management. Then the latter was taken away from NB tanks.

Datthaw · February 2018

Arobain wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

nightblade tanks are completely fine, it just seems you arent too creative, thats ok though, not everyone is

You're posting nerf threads about beetles, I'm not really going to take your word on anything.

alright, i had my opinion, you have your opinion now, i'm fine with that, my nightblade tank works great, sorry you dont believe me

its just a shame that to you i'm completely un trustworthy because my opinion was and is different than yours

"I do good" says arobain while breathing heavily from mouth and dragging knuckles.

kylewwefan · February 2018

I tried nightblade tanking for awhile. I thought it was just me being bad at tanking, but then I got my DK leveled up to tank. DK tank is indeed easy mode.

When further nerfs were made to Nightblades for tanking purposes I really didn’t care so much as it was already apparent DK is by far superior to any other class for tank.

I’ve seen a small handful of frost staff tanks....fine for normal content. Templar tanks I’ve seen video of them doing amazing things, but having to work way harder to achieve. Likewise with Sorc tank. Warden tank is close to DK, but you won’t find many that can use it that effectively.

You can keep on trying your best to make it work, but I chose the most successful path of least resistance.

I’d suggest most players should do the same, cause when the tank fails everyone sees it.

Azurya · February 2018

my NB tank is doing fine in pledges, but not in trials
and that is the point
NB was general nerfed below the grasslevel
we need a few buffs and tweaks here and there
then I can make it happen
once again!

Arobain · February 2018

my nightblade tank isn't finished, but i will share what i have when i get home later today, it would also be fair to mention, that i chose for this character to not be a full tank, but a tank/dps, so it isnt going to be able to tank everything that a true tank could, but based on my testing so far, it seems to work great for what its made to do, which would be: PvP and 1v1 fights in general, its not the as good as it can be because it isnt finished, but i'll share what i have later

but considering how nightblades have the most different way of tanking compared to every other class, with bolstering darkness you can decrease damage taken by 60% for like 15 seconds in an area, with your shades you can apply minor maim, and in pvp these can help by obscuring the view of your enemy, especially at ranged enemies, because the shades ( if you choose the double option ) get right in their face. i also really like the nightblades easy ability to get the dodge chance, and the minor resistance buffs, as well as the passive way of getting the major resistance buffs by just casting a shadow ability, on top of that, nightblades have very good self healing capabilities ( if mag )

i feel a big reason people may feel that nightblades may not be good tanks is because you have to tank differently somewhat, on a nightblade compared to the other classes, and a mag nightblade tank is much more favored based on abilities and passives, than a stam nightblade tank

thedude33 · February 2018

Arobain wrote: »

my nightblade tank isn't finished, but i will share what i have when i get home later today, it would also be fair to mention, that i chose for this character to not be a full tank, but a tank/dps, so it isnt going to be able to tank everything that a true tank could, but based on my testing so far, it seems to work great for what its made to do, which would be: PvP and 1v1 fights in general, its not the as good as it can be because it isnt finished, but i'll share what i have later

but considering how nightblades have the most different way of tanking compared to every other class, with bolstering darkness you can decrease damage taken by 60% for like 15 seconds in an area, with your shades you can apply minor maim, and in pvp these can help by obscuring the view of your enemy, especially at ranged enemies, because the shades ( if you choose the double option ) get right in their face. i also really like the nightblades easy ability to get the dodge chance, and the minor resistance buffs, as well as the passive way of getting the major resistance buffs by just casting a shadow ability, on top of that, nightblades have very good self healing capabilities ( if mag )

i feel a big reason people may feel that nightblades may not be good tanks is because you have to tank differently somewhat, on a nightblade compared to the other classes, and a mag nightblade tank is much more favored based on abilities and passives, than a stam nightblade tank

Giving opinions on a class based on theory crafting?

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Yea,

thedude33 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

my nightblade tank isn't finished, but i will share what i have when i get home later today, it would also be fair to mention, that i chose for this character to not be a full tank, but a tank/dps, so it isnt going to be able to tank everything that a true tank could, but based on my testing so far, it seems to work great for what its made to do, which would be: PvP and 1v1 fights in general, its not the as good as it can be because it isnt finished, but i'll share what i have later

but considering how nightblades have the most different way of tanking compared to every other class, with bolstering darkness you can decrease damage taken by 60% for like 15 seconds in an area, with your shades you can apply minor maim, and in pvp these can help by obscuring the view of your enemy, especially at ranged enemies, because the shades ( if you choose the double option ) get right in their face. i also really like the nightblades easy ability to get the dodge chance, and the minor resistance buffs, as well as the passive way of getting the major resistance buffs by just casting a shadow ability, on top of that, nightblades have very good self healing capabilities ( if mag )

i feel a big reason people may feel that nightblades may not be good tanks is because you have to tank differently somewhat, on a nightblade compared to the other classes, and a mag nightblade tank is much more favored based on abilities and passives, than a stam nightblade tank

Giving opinions on a class based on theory crafting?

you can't go and say "I tank just fine on nb" when your build clearly doesn't handle trials or vet dlc dungeons and isn't even 'finished' yet.

Yes you can get 60% Dr from bolstering darkness, but as a 200 cost ultimate you won't have anywhere close to 100% uptime on it, you're losing warhorn for the team by using that instead, and it still won't help your stamina sustain when blocking a volley of incoming attacks. If it can't handle axes, it isn't a viable tank build.

kylewwefan · February 2018

Bolstering darkness looks good on paper, but you’ll probably find yourself using the S/B ultimate to get some heavy attacks in for resource management.

aeowulf · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

If it can't handle axes, it isn't a viable tank build.

Probably one of the best definitions of an 'ESO viable' tank I've read.

Kolzki · February 2018

A couple of classes can gear entirely for group support without making big compromises on their sustain or on functionality. Nightblades are not currently one of those classes.

aeowulf · February 2018

At the end of the day, we are where we are. Do they need love? Probably, but this love does not need to be in the form of changes to skills. We don't actually know - ESO is not like other MMO's where you get all skills on a cooldown. Maybe NB tanks are meta and they are <the best tanks in the game> but literally no one has figured this out yet. If this is the case, ZoS, please point us in the right direction, tell us how you want us to play NB tank. In fact you don't even need to tell us, just pop a video up of an NB tank in some tough content, like vBF, we can probably work out the rest. At least let the NB tank community know where they stand. (Might be nice to use a DK healer for that group and 2 stamplar DPS)

The most irritating bit is feeling ignored. I get the feeling they know something's wrong as there are no NB tanks, that much is painfully obvious. It's a year after the chages went live, and their removal. There have been two attempts to help NB tanks out, one was duration tweaking which really did nothing, the other broke executioner passive, impacting mostly DPS (But it seems none noticed anyway as they can rely on Siphoning Strikes). Had either change done something to help NB tanks, they would be back on the scene. They have a passionate and loyal following, still, a year later. I don't think this issue wil go away soon, least not whilst people can rememeber the fun they had playing them.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

I agree with you - my Nightblade Tank took a major hit as well. Haven't played him much since. I likewise feel like they need to do something with the general fun of the Templar class. Templar has been sucked through the fun extractor, and all that is left is a lifeless gray husk. By the way Repentance sucks, don't let anyone fool you. Two Templars should not have to compete for corpses.

Arobain · February 2018

in response to the replies to my comment, the build is not finished yes, but that does not mean it does not work, the build is not made for trials, and NONE of my builds are, i don't enjoy trials, and i have tried them

i was going to say that i dont think it would be able to tank vet dlc dungeons, but then i thought a little longer about it, and i'm unsure, based one what it has done so far, it should be able to do it fine

the tank build does perfectly fine as i said, for the content i myself play,(PvP and some pve) and what i have tested it so far on: ( Duels, Cyrodiil, a few vet dungeons, most normal dungeons )

all of my builds go through very intensive testing, so i'm not going to say its finished unless i'm absolutely sure, its looking very good, and if i had more time to play lately, it would probably be finished, but i do plan to bring it to vet dlc dungeons like bloodroot forge, and others when i have the time, and i feel its ready and works great in every other test i put it through before

now i was asked to share what i have so i will do that, i rarely show the entirety of a build i make but i'll share some of it

role: tank/dps ( leaning more towards tanking )
how: self healing, pets, large amounts of damage negation by percentage buffs ( minor/major protection) as well as cloak to disengage and recover if needed

front bar: refreshing path, invigorating drain, dark cloak, baleful mist, inner light ---- ULT > soul tether

because i'm completely paranoid for no reason at certain things, thats all i will share, i just want to state that the back bar does play an important role besides just buffs

aeowulf · February 2018

I know. it's awful (but at least pretty cool!) - I asked for a review of the way that skill proc'd a few weeks ago in another thread too, and that other issue wrt to that skill. being cool does not help in the real world though

Not as bad as executioner, where in a trial you were literally competing against 11 others of any class for the killing blow to get back resources^^. That has been tweaked now, to just damage it with an assination skill in the last 2 seconds of the mobs life with a skill that costs more than the return, but won't return if you get the killing blow or under some other unknown circumstances

Have to chuckle ^^

Completely agree wrt templar tanks too - there are far too many underplayed class/role combinations in this game. I feel templars may have the option of going the ice staff route and a nice healing line, but I am not an expert on that class/role combination (even though I have one - my partner plays templar, and she's kinda banned me from playing one seriously^^). They are certainly not up to par with DK/Warden, and all classes should be atleast vaguely competitive with each other in each role. I feel the classes ZoS needs to look at the most, are the ones you never see in finder. The community are showing ZoS by literally not playing the bad. They worry too much about a 1% change in dps for x class under exact meta circumstances.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

I did notice one interesting bug last night:

Hemorrhage in the assassination tree passives says it grants minor savagery to you and your group whenever you deal critical damage, however it will also proc off of critical healing from refreshing path (and possibly other abilities). I was able to proc it just casting path in elden root on other players

ccfeeling · February 2018

Innate Axiom
Daedric Trickery
Twice-Born Star
Pelinal's Aptitude
Aspect of Mazzatun
Tava's Favor
Hunt Leader
Leeching Plate
Desert Rose
Infallible Mage
Necropotence
Shroud of the Lich
Shadow Walker
Vicious Serpent
Armor of the Trainee
Defending Warrior
Ebon Armory
Eternal Warrior
Plague Doctor

All monster sets
Vdsa and Vma weapons

In the past 6 months, i spent a lot time a lot golds to test different sets above, skills , CP combination to utilize my NB tank, most of my friends asked me better change to dk and i rejected, i would like to prove the diversity of eso. This is the cored content I believe.

But he is still bad in hard contents, quiet bad.

I Didn't login for few days, i lost all my passion.
I've tried my best at least

To the rest of u, don't give up
We will be strong one day

Lynx7386 · February 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Innate Axiom
Daedric Trickery
Twice-Born Star
Pelinal's Aptitude
Aspect of Mazzatun
Tava's Favor
Hunt Leader
Leeching Plate
Desert Rose
Infallible Mage
Necropotence
Shroud of the Lich
Shadow Walker
Vicious Serpent
Armor of the Trainee
Defending Warrior
Ebon Armory
Eternal Warrior
Plague Doctor

All monster sets
Vdsa and Vma weapons

In the past 6 months, i spent a lot time a lot golds to test different sets above, skills , CP combination to utilize my NB tank, most of my friends asked me better change to dk and i rejected, i would like to prove the diversity of eso. This is the cored content I believe.

But he is still bad in hard contents, quiet bad.

I Didn't login for few days, i lost all my passion.
I've tried my best at least

To the rest of u, don't give up
We will be strong one day

For the moment I've settled on:
5 bahraha's curse (jewelry, 1h, and light belt
5 livewire (Chest, legs, hands, feet, shield, and resto staff on back bar)
1x might chudan (medium shoulder)
1x bone pirate (heavy helm)

Self buffed this puts him at 32k physical and spell resists, and around 35k health. I get reliable and constant self healing from both armor sets, and that healing scales up with more enemies (slightly less reliable on single bosses). I also have self healing coming from refreshing path, funnel health, mutagen, healing springs (for emergencies), and spirit siphon on bosses (magicka and life steal). Dark shades debuff enemies, shadow ward gives major resolve and ward, mirage gives major evasion and minor resolve and ward. Sap essence for an aoe group heal, major brutality, and major sorcery.

The build provides constant minor savagery and healing to the group at no extra cost. Between heroic slash, soul harvest on the front bar, and siphoning passives ultimate builds very quickly so I can keep aggressive warhorn going to buff group damage.

Obviosuly this build wouldn't work in trials except as an offtank/healer, but the set up above allows me to almost entirely forgo blocking in vet dungeons. Block is reserved for heavy attacks and boss abilities that require blocking, and the rest of the time the capped resistances and constant healing keep me alive well enough that I can heavy attack to sustain stamina.

This is about the best set up I've found for nb tanking, and it still can't handle the hardest content at all. If we had some more group utility and a viable source of stamina sustain while blocking the story might be different.

svaboss · February 2018

efster wrote: »

NB tanks don't have any class-based ways to:

- convert mag to stam (as OP has already detailed);
- burst self-heal (HoTs are not going to save you on execute phase for 4th boss of vHoF, backroom tanking Mantikora in the last vSO fight, against vAA axes, or the Olms fight in vAS, especially with any pluses)
- shield (Blur doesn't count; it absorbs 0 damage)

We have in fact never had class shields or burst heals, but we did have SA, which was arguably the cornerstone of NB tanking, which was what enabled those of us who ventured there to succeed in vet trials.

Life hacks like using Absorb Magicka for shields (gone now unless you're an SPC "tank" running ice/lightning), running Rkugamz, using Bone Shield, Vigor, etc are not class abilities and so don't belong in a discussion that compares NBs as a class to the other classes in a particular role.

Yes, NB tanks are in a bad place. If you think otherwise and believe your NB tank is doing just fine, you've never tanked anything that requires you to survive without a healer babysitting you. That is not to say NB tanking is "dead" or "impossible" -- of course not. You can tank on a NB now and in the coming update, obviously, a lot -- nearly everything -- in this game is accessible to a group with an experienced NB tank (unless going for leaderboard scores), but there's no good reason besides friendship to bring a NB tank to anything when DKs and wardens are in abundance.

NB tanks are not "strong". We were strong when Siphoning Attacks returned both stam and mag and procced off every tick of Caltrops. We're barely adequate. So yeah, NB tanks do in fact need help, not that I'm holding my breath for the devs to do anything about it. That would require imagination.

first i want to say your post is awesome. i agree on everything. the only thing that made us special from other classes in tanking was the: i dont have to worry about resources ever. it was so till the changes to shiponing strikes. yes you can run sets for the self heals you need, or the dmg shield but you also need to give up alot on group support to do so. the major evasion from mirage is a joke in PVE and since i dont see anyone in PVP using it either its also a joke over there. (ok some NBs CP1-200 AWR Tyro also runns it here and there untill they see its a waist of a skill slot). sap tanking, i remember this one. it was the most fun think in this game i have done in 4 years playing it. it was amazing, and now its butchered by the devs. yes you can tank everytink in this game as a NB tank but to do it so you really need a group (especially for vet trials) that will hold you like a child by your hand and babysitting you the whole run. i have done till todays all the vet hardmode dungeons and vDSA on my NB tank but it was really painfull sometimes when you compare it to other classes tanking (looks at DKs). i can only be happy that i have enough friends who are really great players and who dont mind to take a NB tank into some HM stuff because of the friendship and because of the lack of any kind of tanks in this game in general. if i get in a PUG group ppl dont like to see a NB tank but since its really hard to find a tank they always give me a chance and dont kik me (they also can see my max CP, dung achivement title etc) but if you could ask them to choose between me who knows the dungeon and a DK tank who might not know the dung, alot of them would choose the DK just becuse of the fact that i am a NB tank. i would like to add a list of skills and passives from a NB and a DK used for tanking (yes i always go back to DK and not to other classes because i have only a DK tank besides my NB tank so i dont want to speak of classes i dont have exp in tanking), but knowing ZOS i rather dont list anything to compare skills between NB and DK. why? becuse one class would seem so overpowered that ZOS would trow a nerf nuke in the next patch till monday. no, im not joking. all together NB tanks need ALOT of love but not the copy past kind of love. give them something unique like the sap tank was. sry for the bad english but youll get the point.

aeowulf · February 2018

@svaboss your English is fine. There's a lot of great stuff in this thread. Whether or it's acted on is another thing entirely

these type of posts go back pre-morrowind, and there's been borderline nothing to help NB tanks - aka 'The most fun class that was' I doubt they will ever get that back, and that really makes me sad. @Joy_Division did an excellent post at the time regarding Templar fun, there is a lot of similarities between that and NB tank in the fun department

RavenSworn · February 2018

I'm guessing we need another slight rework of the passives, especially in the shadow tree as you had pointed out @Lynx7386.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure it has to be tied to dodge. The night blade, by design is based on quick hits ( merciless resolve), resource return (original siphoning strikes), dodging (mirage) and harassment (shades, path, crippling grasp, etc).

We already have stamina recovery under relentless focus and the new siphoning strikes give resource returns based on its stamina / magicka morph. Now the other class that has an internal dodging mechanic is the warden (deceptive predator) but the warden also has a very good resource return (Netch).

I propose 4 changes:

1) to swap the cost of leeching strikes and siphoning attacks ie leeching strikes now cost magicka, and siphoning to cost stamina.

2) to add a "each time you successfully dodge an attack, gain x stamina or magicka, whichever is higher" to the Dark vigor passive. Swap its position with Dark Veil passive, so it's a 'high end' passive in conjunction with its utility.

3) add an extra mechanic to the dark shades ability, much like its shadow image counterpart. 'Once activated, press dark shades again to have the shades deal a spinning attack, dealing damage to all enemies around them and dealing minor maim'. This will allow nightblades to choose whether a) to have an escape mechanic b) to have an aoe minor maim (much like how beetles or talons work, albeit differently)

4) Path of Darkness to gain a synergy. The synergy will be about dealing magic damage for twisting path and healing x damage for refreshing path.

I have thought about the shades getting the stamina return each time they attack, but I think it's much more useful for a night blade to provide that extra minor maim utility.

What are your thoughts on this?

NyassaV · February 2018

phermitgb wrote: »

just a note - doesn't siphoning strikes also deliver a large stamina "heal" (i.e. restores a large chunk of stamina) when the effect ends? I'm pretty sure it does, as that's part of my build...

No that would be really. I have suggested such things in the past though

NyassaV · February 2018

I want them to revert siphioning attack just with different return values

Silver_Strider · February 2018

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'm guessing we need another slight rework of the passives, especially in the shadow tree as you had pointed out @Lynx7386.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure it has to be tied to dodge. The night blade, by design is based on quick hits ( merciless resolve), resource return (original siphoning strikes), dodging (mirage) and harassment (shades, path, crippling grasp, etc).

We already have stamina recovery under relentless focus and the new siphoning strikes give resource returns based on its stamina / magicka morph. Now the other class that has an internal dodging mechanic is the warden (deceptive predator) but the warden also has a very good resource return (Netch).

I propose 4 changes:

1) to swap the cost of leeching strikes and siphoning attacks ie leeching strikes now cost magicka, and siphoning to cost stamina.

2) to add a "each time you successfully dodge an attack, gain x stamina or magicka, whichever is higher" to the Dark vigor passive. Swap its position with Dark Veil passive, so it's a 'high end' passive in conjunction with its utility.

3) add an extra mechanic to the dark shades ability, much like its shadow image counterpart. 'Once activated, press dark shades again to have the shades deal a spinning attack, dealing damage to all enemies around them and dealing minor maim'. This will allow nightblades to choose whether a) to have an escape mechanic b) to have an aoe minor maim (much like how beetles or talons work, albeit differently)

4) Path of Darkness to gain a synergy. The synergy will be about dealing magic damage for twisting path and healing x damage for refreshing path.

I have thought about the shades getting the stamina return each time they attack, but I think it's much more useful for a night blade to provide that extra minor maim utility.

What are your thoughts on this?

1) Would be useful
2) Would be useful
3) Prefer the Stamina Steal effect personally. An AoE Minor Maim, while useful for trash pulls or add phases in boss fights, isn't why NB tanks are currently struggling. It's a lack of sustain in long boss fights, in which case, Heroic Slash covers Minor Maim in those instances well enough as is.
4) Not against it. It isn't the worst suggestion obviously but I worry how this will effect the current rendition of these skills. Would the skills be nerfed to compensate for the synergy? Are there better alternative buffs to these skills that can be added in their place? I'd personally would prefer Minor Breech or a Snare be added to Twisting Path while Refreshing gets a cheap health regen effect thrown on top of the heal but again, your suggestions are viable as well

Overall, not bad suggestions. 8/10.

RavenSworn · February 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'm guessing we need another slight rework of the passives, especially in the shadow tree as you had pointed out @Lynx7386.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure it has to be tied to dodge. The night blade, by design is based on quick hits ( merciless resolve), resource return (original siphoning strikes), dodging (mirage) and harassment (shades, path, crippling grasp, etc).

We already have stamina recovery under relentless focus and the new siphoning strikes give resource returns based on its stamina / magicka morph. Now the other class that has an internal dodging mechanic is the warden (deceptive predator) but the warden also has a very good resource return (Netch).

I propose 4 changes:

1) to swap the cost of leeching strikes and siphoning attacks ie leeching strikes now cost magicka, and siphoning to cost stamina.

2) to add a "each time you successfully dodge an attack, gain x stamina or magicka, whichever is higher" to the Dark vigor passive. Swap its position with Dark Veil passive, so it's a 'high end' passive in conjunction with its utility.

3) add an extra mechanic to the dark shades ability, much like its shadow image counterpart. 'Once activated, press dark shades again to have the shades deal a spinning attack, dealing damage to all enemies around them and dealing minor maim'. This will allow nightblades to choose whether a) to have an escape mechanic b) to have an aoe minor maim (much like how beetles or talons work, albeit differently)

4) Path of Darkness to gain a synergy. The synergy will be about dealing magic damage for twisting path and healing x damage for refreshing path.

I have thought about the shades getting the stamina return each time they attack, but I think it's much more useful for a night blade to provide that extra minor maim utility.

What are your thoughts on this?

1) Would be useful
2) Would be useful
3) Prefer the Stamina Steal effect personally. An AoE Minor Maim, while useful for trash pulls or add phases in boss fights, isn't why NB tanks are currently struggling. It's a lack of sustain in long boss fights, in which case, Heroic Slash covers Minor Maim in those instances well enough as is.
4) Not against it. It isn't the worst suggestion obviously but I worry how this will effect the current rendition of these skills. Would the skills be nerfed to compensate for the synergy? Are there better alternative buffs to these skills that can be added in their place? I'd personally would prefer Minor Breech or a Snare be added to Twisting Path while Refreshing gets a cheap health regen effect thrown on top of the heal but again, your suggestions are viable as well

Overall, not bad suggestions. 8/10.

Thank you, appreciate it. I knew that nbs problem are stamina sustain, especially for fights such as the axes. I thought about how it might work together with (2). Also, for tanks that uses hist bark or tava, this would be powerful and for shades to have stamina steal... I worry about the implications it would have in pvp, even if it wasn't implied in the topic.

I had to include shades as an alternative to some of the tools given to us, as such an aoe minor maim seems good. Wardens get it via a delayed mechanic, dks get it via a synergistic ability, we get it via our own flavour skill (namely shadow image).

With (4) as nb we have less than stellar synergy choices. Adding a straight up damage to twisting path, without any frills seems the best option for me, given how its similar to liquid lightning. Snares would just not be feasible, it would add too much balancing in pvp.

Silver_Strider · February 2018

RavenSworn wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'm guessing we need another slight rework of the passives, especially in the shadow tree as you had pointed out @Lynx7386.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure it has to be tied to dodge. The night blade, by design is based on quick hits ( merciless resolve), resource return (original siphoning strikes), dodging (mirage) and harassment (shades, path, crippling grasp, etc).

We already have stamina recovery under relentless focus and the new siphoning strikes give resource returns based on its stamina / magicka morph. Now the other class that has an internal dodging mechanic is the warden (deceptive predator) but the warden also has a very good resource return (Netch).

I propose 4 changes:

1) to swap the cost of leeching strikes and siphoning attacks ie leeching strikes now cost magicka, and siphoning to cost stamina.

2) to add a "each time you successfully dodge an attack, gain x stamina or magicka, whichever is higher" to the Dark vigor passive. Swap its position with Dark Veil passive, so it's a 'high end' passive in conjunction with its utility.

3) add an extra mechanic to the dark shades ability, much like its shadow image counterpart. 'Once activated, press dark shades again to have the shades deal a spinning attack, dealing damage to all enemies around them and dealing minor maim'. This will allow nightblades to choose whether a) to have an escape mechanic b) to have an aoe minor maim (much like how beetles or talons work, albeit differently)

4) Path of Darkness to gain a synergy. The synergy will be about dealing magic damage for twisting path and healing x damage for refreshing path.

I have thought about the shades getting the stamina return each time they attack, but I think it's much more useful for a night blade to provide that extra minor maim utility.

What are your thoughts on this?

1) Would be useful
2) Would be useful
3) Prefer the Stamina Steal effect personally. An AoE Minor Maim, while useful for trash pulls or add phases in boss fights, isn't why NB tanks are currently struggling. It's a lack of sustain in long boss fights, in which case, Heroic Slash covers Minor Maim in those instances well enough as is.
4) Not against it. It isn't the worst suggestion obviously but I worry how this will effect the current rendition of these skills. Would the skills be nerfed to compensate for the synergy? Are there better alternative buffs to these skills that can be added in their place? I'd personally would prefer Minor Breech or a Snare be added to Twisting Path while Refreshing gets a cheap health regen effect thrown on top of the heal but again, your suggestions are viable as well

Overall, not bad suggestions. 8/10.

Thank you, appreciate it. I knew that nbs problem are stamina sustain, especially for fights such as the axes. I thought about how it might work together with (2). Also, for tanks that uses hist bark or tava, this would be powerful and for shades to have stamina steal... I worry about the implications it would have in pvp, even if it wasn't implied in the topic.

I had to include shades as an alternative to some of the tools given to us, as such an aoe minor maim seems good. Wardens get it via a delayed mechanic, dks get it via a synergistic ability, we get it via our own flavour skill (namely shadow image).

With (4) as nb we have less than stellar synergy choices. Adding a straight up damage to twisting path, without any frills seems the best option for me, given how its similar to liquid lightning. Snares would just not be feasible, it would add too much balancing in pvp.

Thing about Shades is that, it would mean you either choose the Teleport Morph or the Stamina Steal Morph and I can't imagine a single NB in PvP would be willing a free teleport for some stamina steal effect, even if Shades is of limited use in general, not to mention that Dark Shades are fairly easy to kite, whereas Shadow Image is pretty much constantly able to attack.

As for a snare on Twisiting Path, PvP is already riddled with Snares that I doubt 1 more would really disturb any balance PvP has, especially since Twisting is sort of meh there outside of some niche purposes here and there.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Yea I dont see a snare on twisting path being necessary or balanced, really.

I'm still thinking stamina steal on dark shades is the best idea so far. It's an ability that isnt widely used (why use shades when you can use heroic slash instead, yea?), the shades cant aid in tanking really other than spreading the maim debuff a little quicker, they have limited duration, and do crap for damage. They need something to make them worth casting other than helping keep up the major ward/resolve buff from shadow passives (which you already have up 90% of the time from refreshing path anyways).

minor staminasteal on the dark shades morph gives group support that doesnt currently exist. It helps nightblade tanks sustain while blocking, nightblade healers can use it in conjunction with siphon spirit from resto staff to help restore both stamina and magicka to their groups, and stamblade dps could even fit it on a back bar to help with sustain so they dont have to use quite as many heavy attacks.

I will note that templars are also in a similar situation right now in regards to stamina sustain being terrible. They cant use their own synergy from luminous/blazing shard to restore resources, and repentance is only good when corpses are around. I think stamina steal could be in their tool kit as well, by changing repentance entirely.
Currently restoring aura applies magicka steal to all enemies in 12 meters (25 meters with the radiant aura morph). Repentance, the other morph, no longer applies magicka steal but instead consumes corpses to restore health and stamina. Now, in theory this is a good free heal and stamina restore to the team - but corpses are limited, and often not present during boss fights where the sustain is actually needed.
My suggestion for templars is to change repentance like so:
Repentance: No longer applies magicka steal. Instead, apply minor lifesteal and minor staminasteal to all enemies within 12 meters.

That allows it to still serve as a heal as well as a stamina restore, but it's something that can work even on boss fights, and it'd help both templar tanks as well as healers and stamina dps.