Nightblade tanks need some love

Lynx7386

I almost exclusively play tanks in this game. I've tanked on every class, and currently have 4 classes as tanks (and a templar healer). I used to tank primarily on my nightblade back pre-morrowind when sap tanks were still an option. The massive and, in my opinion, unwarranted change to siphoning strikes has nearly crippled nightblade tanks in all aspects of the game.

Every other class has some means by which to recover stamina outside of the usual constitution/recovery benefits.
Warden: Bull Netch / Nature's gift
Dragonknight: Helping hands / Battleroar
Sorceror: Dark Deal
Templar: Repentance

Nightblades had siphoning strikes, which at one point cost magicka and would return magicka and stamina 10% of the time you used other abilities. The new version of strikes only restores stamina (or magicka, based on morph) on light and heavy attacks, and for tanks costs more than it restores in most situations. You need a net total of 9 hits to restore just the casting cost of the ability - tanks simply do not throw light and heavy attacks out that often, even if they arent permablocking.

Something needs to be done about this to make nightblades a viable tanking option again. If it's true that ZOS wants every class to be capable of filling every role, and wants each class to have a skill tree more or less dedicated to a specific role as they've done with wardens and are slowly doing to the other classes, nightblade resource management needs to change.

Obviously the best option would be a change directly to siphoning strikes, but I doubt ZOS will go back on what they've already screwed up and make additional adjustments. Ideally, siphoning strikes and its morphs should have no resource cost, or should be toggled abilities once more, in order to make their stamina or magicka return viable for characters that arent sitting there spamming nothing but light and heavy attacks. Alternatively, instead of being based on light and heavy attacks change siphoning strikes to return resources on any damage or healing done by the nightblade or his abilities (inc. dark shades). That would allow a tank to cast it and reap the resource return from his shades and damage over time effects rather than having to constantly light or heavy attack..

Other options include some kind of stamina return on a shadow ability (which they seem to want to be the tank focused tree) - possibly dark shades (returns stamina whenever hitting an enemy, magicka for the bow version) or an alteration to aspect of terror/mass hysteria/manifestation of terror, as none of the fear abilities are currently conducive to tanking (or anything outside of pvp, lets be honest here). Another option could be adjustments to one of the shadow cloak morphs - again a useless ability for tanking as it drops aggro (though it wasnt always so) to instead give resistances and stamina return rather than invisibility (but obviously leave one morph for invisibility for those who use it). Maybe change dark cloak to something like "Chameleon: grants minor evasion and minor protection for 10 seconds, but no longer grants invisibility. Dodging, blocking, or being hit by an attack while active restores x% of your max stamina."

I'm open to other ideas, but I'm at a loss as to how to keep my nightblade tank even viable at the moment.

phermitgb

just a note - doesn't siphoning strikes also deliver a large stamina "heal" (i.e. restores a large chunk of stamina) when the effect ends? I'm pretty sure it does, as that's part of my build...

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

It does give a chunk of stam or Magicka (depending on the morph) when the effect ends. You can also cast it early to give an amount (like rally in a way).

I genuinely have few resourace issues with my NB tank and I think that you can build to compensate for this. NB tanks are still strong. Always have been and hopefully always will be. ☺

Valykc

phermitgb wrote: »

just a note - doesn't siphoning strikes also deliver a large stamina "heal" (i.e. restores a large chunk of stamina) when the effect ends? I'm pretty sure it does, as that's part of my build...

Yeah, it does.

I think you are grasping OP, if you are a real tank then you can sustain with heavy attacks between block, pair it with an infused weapon with Stam return glyph and you’ll be ok. Still struggling, be an Argonian with the potion passive you’ll be even better. Still struggling? Put potion cool down glyphs on your jewelry. This would help your sustain and help with ultimate generation.

If you still struggle than you should switch to your other classes and let Your Nightblade tank collect cobwebs lol

ccfeeling

After siphoning strikes huge nerfed, i also created temp, sorc, dk tanks
Dk is ez mode, can play with 1 bar, no swap is required even dlc hm, more set selection, guess its Zos intention
Sorc tank is 2nd best and funny
NB and temp are both weak as tank.
I could say temp tank is even worse in end game content. They have no corpse to sustain lol

Anyway, Zos never listen and continue to nerf everything by pvp perspective.

One day, u GUYS lose everything.

Anastian

I used to love my Saptank pre morrowind but it's just not viable any longer

Kolzki

I’m thinking of testing sentinel of rkugamz for stam regen. I figure it should proc on cool down with the amount of healing a NB tank can throw out. That would give an extra 4K stam every 15 seconds on top of the siphoning strikes burst.

Engine guardian can be good too but the random selection of health/mag/stam regen can rng you to death if you rely on it too much. Obviously you can’t run swarm mother or blood spawn then.

There are a few 5 piece sets that help stam regen but you lose a lot of group support.

I think sometimes there’s just no substitute for a good healer throwning shards or orbs your way.

Lynx7386

Kolzki wrote: »

I’m thinking of testing sentinel of rkugamz for stam regen. I figure it should proc on cool down with the amount of healing a NB tank can throw out. That would give an extra 4K stam every 15 seconds on top of the siphoning strikes burst.

Engine guardian can be good too but the random selection of health/mag/stam regen can rng you to death if you rely on it too much. Obviously you can’t run swarm mother or blood spawn then.

There are a few 5 piece sets that help stam regen but you lose a lot of group support.

I think sometimes there’s just no substitute for a good healer throwning shards or orbs your way.

That's actually something I didn't consider, maybe ill try sentinel and see how it does.

ccfeeling

Kolzki wrote: »

I’m thinking of testing sentinel of rkugamz for stam regen. I figure it should proc on cool down with the amount of healing a NB tank can throw out. That would give an extra 4K stam every 15 seconds on top of the siphoning strikes burst.

Engine guardian can be good too but the random selection of health/mag/stam regen can rng you to death if you rely on it too much. Obviously you can’t run swarm mother or blood spawn then.

There are a few 5 piece sets that help stam regen but you lose a lot of group support.

I think sometimes there’s just no substitute for a good healer throwning shards or orbs your way.

Good to try but Rku pro rate is pretty low indeed from my past experience and it pops on static area . No good for some fights and situation.You move out you lose the regen and 7 second cool down.
Aspect of Mazzatun + Hunt leader , the best stam sustain setup , 1pc + 1pc or 2pc resistance monster .
Selfish tank , yes ... ability limitation tho...not NB fault lol

RavenSworn

I'm liking the ideas! How about a passive rework in the shadow tree, preferably dark vigor, to return stamina or magicka whichever is higher whenever you dodge an attack? This works in favour with mirage and tava, and also boosts nb tanks, be it magicka or stamina.

The key issue here would be how it ties in with pvp though.

efster

NB tanks don't have any class-based ways to:

- convert mag to stam (as OP has already detailed);
- burst self-heal (HoTs are not going to save you on execute phase for 4th boss of vHoF, backroom tanking Mantikora in the last vSO fight, against vAA axes, or the Olms fight in vAS, especially with any pluses)
- shield (Blur doesn't count; it absorbs 0 damage)

We have in fact never had class shields or burst heals, but we did have SA, which was arguably the cornerstone of NB tanking, which was what enabled those of us who ventured there to succeed in vet trials.

Life hacks like using Absorb Magicka for shields (gone now unless you're an SPC "tank" running ice/lightning), running Rkugamz, using Bone Shield, Vigor, etc are not class abilities and so don't belong in a discussion that compares NBs as a class to the other classes in a particular role.

Yes, NB tanks are in a bad place. If you think otherwise and believe your NB tank is doing just fine, you've never tanked anything that requires you to survive without a healer babysitting you. That is not to say NB tanking is "dead" or "impossible" -- of course not. You can tank on a NB now and in the coming update, obviously, a lot -- nearly everything -- in this game is accessible to a group with an experienced NB tank (unless going for leaderboard scores), but there's no good reason besides friendship to bring a NB tank to anything when DKs and wardens are in abundance.

NB tanks are not "strong". We were strong when Siphoning Attacks returned both stam and mag and procced off every tick of Caltrops. We're barely adequate. So yeah, NB tanks do in fact need help, not that I'm holding my breath for the devs to do anything about it. That would require imagination.

Silver_Strider

If ZOS is going to make every class have a DPS/Tank/Heal skill line, I kindly ask that Veiled Strike and Blur be swapped from their respective skill lines. It always bugged me that Blur was an Assassin Skill when Veiled Strike just seems more thematically sound to be in that skill line.

I can see at least 1 morph of Fear being altered to be something akin to a Charm effect, that causes enemies to come towards the NB. Not exactly a Taunt, just something to make enemies move towards the NB.

Dark Shades to provide Minor Stamina Steal might make it more appealing an option for NB Tanks and Healers. I am going to miss that teleport though

Aisle9

phermitgb wrote: »

just a note - doesn't siphoning strikes also deliver a large stamina "heal" (i.e. restores a large chunk of stamina) when the effect ends? I'm pretty sure it does, as that's part of my build...

Siphoning attacks deliver a large magicka "heal"

What you're referring to is Leeching strikes, the other morph.

That's also what you use if you're NB tanking, unless it's a magicka DD moonlighting as tank.

SantieClaws

Khajiit thinks there is a nice tavern in Ebonheart where you may be able to buy this love you require yes.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I will leave this here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4831500/#Comment_4831500

All I got to say is that if you think that leeching strikes is worse then repentance, just ask yourself have you ever been kicked for using leeching strikes.

aeowulf

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

I genuinely have few resourace issues with my NB tank and I think that you can build to compensate for this. NB tanks are still strong. Always have been and hopefully always will be. ☺

In what way are NB tanks Strong? They provide no crowd control or group utility, and their resource menangement is limited to two skills, one takes 9 seconds to break even, the other is bugged/broken and does not proc if you kill something with an assasination ability.

I have not seen a single NB tank in vet finder in at least 6 months and outside friendship they are unwelcome in tanking normal trials, and I have done a TON of those trying to get a VO dagger. There's about 2% of players.

Look at this poll: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389725/class-role-poll-1-of-5-what-role-is-your-nightblade 3% of NB's are tanks and two of those six are in this thread saying the opposite to you.

If they were strong, they would exist. They were strong pre morrowind, and that's when they were last played. Personally i'd like to see executioner proc on dodge, either from blur or rolls, with an adjustment to return obviously. That would give NB tanks an uncontrollable way of getting resource back, but a way none the less. It would encourage battlefield mobility for NB DSP/healers too, taking the edge off dodge rolls for stam DPS and magicka folks get to swap a bit of spare stam to magicka occasionally, albeit at a bad ratio. Would also like to see NB roll dodge changed to a 'flash through the shadows' effect too, where they go dark as they roll. Purely cosmetic

I was actually shocked how few NB class skills I slot as DPS NB too... 4/12...

Zer0oo

Once upon a time nb snap tanks where one of the best and most fun builds for dungeons but then came the dark age of "balance" patches and they lost everything that made them unique.

aeowulf

Valykc wrote: »

I think you are grasping OP, if you are a real tank then you can sustain with heavy attacks between block, pair it with an infused weapon with Stam return glyph and you’ll be ok. Still struggling, be an Argonian with the potion passive you’ll be even better. Still struggling? Put potion cool down glyphs on your jewelry. This would help your sustain and help with ultimate generation.

If you still struggle than you should switch to your other classes and let Your Nightblade tank collect cobwebs lol

Your definition or 'real tank' please very curious. I'd say a 'real tank' uses crusher/weakening glyphs. Changing race is not a class thing, that's a race thing. If race makes that much difference you can probably expect some balancing at some point. (and in the case of argonian, it probably does post Morrowind)

Zer0oo wrote: »

Once upon a time nb snap tanks where one of the best and most fun builds for dungeons but then came the dark age of "balance" patches and they lost everything that made them unique.

They were fun days indeed. Not saying the whole game was better the further back you go, but NB tanks were certainly.

ccfeeling

ZOS did buffed NB tanks last patch
They have specially mentioned for NB tanks,thank you.

NB tanks, remenber to slot one Assassination offensive skill to get the Executioner passive.

(When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher)

Killer blade basic cost 1606 stam
Ambush basic cost 3442 stam

Time it and cast it before 2 sec the mob die in the crowd.

You know what? You will have net 27000 stam return after u landed 100 times Killer blade at perfect time.

It's pretty OP
Thanks Gina and your creative combat team, best tank passive ever in the game.

aeowulf

ccfeeling wrote: »

ZOS did buffed NB tanks last patch
They have specially mentioned for NB tanks,thank you.

NB tanks, remenber to slot one Assassination offensive skill to get the Executioner passive.

(When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher)

Killer blade basic cost 1606 stam
Ambush basic cost 3442 stam

Time it and cast it before 2 sec the mob die in the crowd.

You know what? You will have net 27000 stam return after u landed 100 times Killer blade at perfect time.

It's pretty OP
Thanks Gina and your creative combat team, best tank passive ever in the game.

Also remember this passive does not proc if you use an assasination ability as the killing blow.

The worst bit is, it's not even confirmed as a bug so might be 'working as intended'

Lynx7386

Also restoring max resource is terrible considering a lot of tanks (not just nb) run higher magicka for other abilities

Kolzki

aeowulf wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

ZOS did buffed NB tanks last patch
They have specially mentioned for NB tanks,thank you.

NB tanks, remenber to slot one Assassination offensive skill to get the Executioner passive.

(When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher)

Killer blade basic cost 1606 stam
Ambush basic cost 3442 stam

Time it and cast it before 2 sec the mob die in the crowd.

You know what? You will have net 27000 stam return after u landed 100 times Killer blade at perfect time.

It's pretty OP
Thanks Gina and your creative combat team, best tank passive ever in the game.

Also remember this passive does not proc if you use an assasination ability as the killing blow.

The worst bit is, it's not even confirmed as a bug so might be 'working as intended'

I’m also pretty sure that it is returning either mag or stamina based on current rather than max resources. At least that’s what my tests using combat metrics suggested.

Asardes

ccfeeling wrote: »

ZOS did buffed NB tanks last patch
They have specially mentioned for NB tanks,thank you.

NB tanks, remenber to slot one Assassination offensive skill to get the Executioner passive.

(When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher)

Killer blade basic cost 1606 stam
Ambush basic cost 3442 stam

Time it and cast it before 2 sec the mob die in the crowd.

You know what? You will have net 27000 stam return after u landed 100 times Killer blade at perfect time.

It's pretty OP
Thanks Gina and your creative combat team, best tank passive ever in the game.

Same problem as Repentance on Templar: something needs to die for you to restore a bit of resources, and nobody will measure tanking trash fights, but hard hitting bosses, that need to be kept tanked for long periods. For example in vAA tanking the axes you will receive 1876 stamina every time a mini-mage you just range tagged with Reaping Mark dies, and you will be healed for 60% of your maximum health (if you actually get that low for that to be useful you'll be rekt anyway), but by that time the axes would have hit you 20x, draining 3.2x as much stamina, assuming you have minimized your block costs to around ~360 and auto-dodged 3 out of those attacks due to Mirage being active. So you'll be jumping trough an extraordinary number of hoops to take advantage of something that DK gets in 2 Ingenous Shield casts on self.

aeowulf

I did put a post up a while back asking for both skills to be reviewed as I don't consider 'on death' to be a useful trigger, but it got into a series of TL;DR except for the two concerned^^ Seems repentance is 'valuable' to stamplars in it's current form because it's cool. Yes I agree it is, but it doesn't mean it's a good way to proc it. Wider issue re two stamplars when there are two in a group still - Execute used to be literally vs 11 of 'any class' for the return.

That combined with the 'waiting 9 seconds for SA to break even' is a bit of a joke - some boss fights in normal dungeons prob won't last that long now there are 70k+ DPS parses cropping up, let alone 20s for the full tick which is the only way to get efficiency from it.

I think the lack of NB tanks, or tanks in general really, speaks out more to the devs than anything we post

TheDarkShadow

They need to buff the return stam/mag of siphoning strike when effect end.
Maybe also make siphoning strikes a group buff. Return heal and stam/mag, whichever pool is bigger, for all allies around the NB. DK tanks have chain and group shield, warden tanks have great heal. NB tank used to offer off heal and some dps too, but since siphon nerf, they don't give group any extra utility any more, while struggle to sustain. A group sustain buff might fix that.

Marginis

I think the biggest problem with NB tanking is that NBs can really just barely reach the stats needed as a tank, and don't have access to all the other abilities that make them harder to kill, as well as beneficial tanking things like aoe cc. They do have other benefits, which I try to take advantage of, but as far as straight up tanking, NBs just don't really have a benefit over other classes it seems. This can work out pleasantly in some situations, but in PVP or any other place where min/maxing or overstacking makes a difference, NBs are usually at a disadvantage.

Honestly though the most annoying part is how sometimes people refuse to even let you try to tank in their group if you're a NB. If we can even just change that misconception I would be pleased.

Lynx7386

Luckily I've never been dropped for being a nb tank (or any other class tank) at least from dungeons, and my guilds know I can at least handle offtanking for trials, but dk/warden are really the only acceptable main tanks for trials.

I do like the idea of dark shades applying stamina steal to enemies they hit, that would be an awesome change and really help with things.

The assassination passive doesn't work for me because I have a higher magicka pool than stamina. My nb focuses on magicka and mag recovery to keep the support and healing abilities going, stamina is only used for blocking, dodging, bashing, and taunting.

aeowulf

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

They need to buff the return stam/mag of siphoning strike when effect end.
Maybe also make siphoning strikes a group buff. Return heal and stam/mag, whichever pool is bigger, for all allies around the NB. DK tanks have chain and group shield, warden tanks have great heal. NB tank used to offer off heal and some dps too, but since siphon nerf, they don't give group any extra utility any more, while struggle to sustain. A group sustain buff might fix that.

Buffing the amount at the end would not help - no one really has a clue what's going to have happened in 20 seconds time.

The initial cost should not be the resource it's meant to help with, I have found myself spamming it occasionally when a bar swap didn't happen making life worse for me Would rather cost was removed and the final amount reduced the same.

Other classes already have good or great sustain, NB DPS/healer is actually OK. Any changes should be carefully done, and buffing other classes with our own sustain is not the way to do it, unless all classes were changed only granted resources to others. Right now, Templar are the only class to do that with minor magicka steal, although this can be used from destro staff too.

the topic has been done to death, even before morrowind. ZoS didn't 'fix' it even with the amount of feedback, and the cost was NB tanks literally disappearing from Tamriel. Vision? Planned? accident? did they know that would happen? really no clue, unfortunately.

exeeter702

Silver_Strider wrote: »

If ZOS is going to make every class have a DPS/Tank/Heal skill line, I kindly ask that Veiled Strike and Blur be swapped from their respective skill lines. It always bugged me that Blur was an Assassin Skill when Veiled Strike just seems more thematically sound to be in that skill line.

I can see at least 1 morph of Fear being altered to be something akin to a Charm effect, that causes enemies to come towards the NB. Not exactly a Taunt, just something to make enemies move towards the NB.

Dark Shades to provide Minor Stamina Steal might make it more appealing an option for NB Tanks and Healers. I am going to miss that teleport though

Dark shades with your suggested stamina steal changes and hunt leader would be the sex.

As a matter of fact that would also give NB healers another resource utility.

Masel

In dungeons I can only recommend vicious ophidian on a tank.

Despite the tooltip saying that it restores stamina when you kill something, it also restores it when a group member kills something, making it give basically infinite stamina as long as something dies every once in a while...

Arobain

nightblade tanks are completely fine, it just seems you arent too creative, thats ok though, not everyone is