how much more must the core game suffer because of CP?

Juhasow · February 2018

Bashev wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.

I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.

I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.

CP is the worst enemy of the hybrid builds. If the damage increase nodes werent separated in Physical/Magickal....

That is straight forward incorrect. If CP's are the worst enemie of hybrid builds why then hybrid builds in non CP campaigns are not existing ? Actually diminishing returns present in CP's system is something that should help hybrid idea.

The real enemies of hybrid builds and the reasons why we dont have hybrids are the way how damage , shields and heals are scaling and lack of soft caps on statistics values. That makes pointless to split between magicka and stamina connected statistics over investing into one group.

Everyone has an opinion. But in non CP I can use whatever ultimate I want and my damage will not be reduced because i didnt put points in specific CP nodes.

Another incorrect info. You can run with DBoS in CP campaigns on magicka builds and still deal sometimes more dmg then with magic dmg type based ultimates. I remember a time when mag nb with 2h ultimate was very strong ganker in CP PvP to the point zenimax needed to nerf that playstyle. I remember stamina builds running with destro ult. Diminishing returns in CP allows to distrubution of them between different buffs without hurting main dmg tyoe much. The 8-10% You usually put into mighty or elemental expert in reality increase dmg by 6-8% so it's barely noticable change and strong ultimate remains strong.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2018

I'm glad someone has resurected this discussion. CP is still killing the game. Nerfs to block when the points into Shadow Ward still remain. Nerfs to gap closers when damage boosts from CP still remain.

davey1107 · February 2018

@wing

I entirely disagree with your premise, which relies on you taking your personal opinions and stating them as absolutes we all have to accept. Because you don’t like CP play doesn’t mean it’s “proven” it’s bad for the game. My counter-arguments would be:

- non-cp has been an abysmal PvP failure on most every server. Non-cp campaigns are empty, and cp campaigns are full. That is all the player feedback they need, really. On my server, when they flipped the cp and non-cp campaigns...which was a stupid stunt...the entire player base moved campaigns, and within 48 hrs everyone was in the new cp campaign. Whether cp is fun or not is moot...there’s no point playing in empty campaigns.

- I originally thought battlegrounds flopped because of non-cp. However, I revise that to say they are so flawed that they stink either way. We won’t know which players prefer until Zos fixes other flaws, like the rng queue, etc.

- you’re not wrong to consider the power creep and how the game has changed. And CPs are partially responsible, for sure. But they aren’t the only element in the equation. Sets and abilities have slowly evolved along with the CP system in order to take into consideration those buffs. When you yank CPs away but leave sets and abilities as-is, all you’re doing is upending the current balance. Some classes benefit hugely, while others suffer. A lot of the fandom behind non-cp are players who know (or suspect) they benefit when it is removed. For example, in non-cp resource management is more crucial, so classes with strong resource return abilities benefit disproportionately to those without. Resistance and tackiness goes down, so builds with strong dps sets benefit disproportionately. Etc.

I’m not opposed to major changes in the game. We eliminated vet ranks, and that was an improvement. We could get along without CPs. But we couldn’t do so without rebalancing every set and ability along with it. And we would need to find something else for lower level players to work toward - the CP system offers a way to get stronger as an end game character. Players probably want something like this so they feel there’s a point to playing.

I don’t personally see Zos wanting to rebalance the game to the extent that removing CPs would require. And it’d be disappointing to me, not because I care that much about CPs, but because it would represent thousands of development hours spent on something that won’t have much of an impact, where they could be spent creating new content.

Girl_Number8 · February 2018

How much must this game suf....f....er from lag?

Wing · February 2018

updated the OP with community contributions ^_^

pandoraderomanus · February 2018

As I have already said in some another thread, CP system gives fake feeling of progression, dmg basically stays the same and gets nerfed every time because ZOS makes content around some amount of dmg so that you don't oneshot let's say Valkyn Skoria. So I'd vote for CP removal and rebalancing the game around some flat level (50/100/160 if you like, whatever). It will be a lot of work and will not be done today or tomorrow or next week, but they will have to do it eventually (at 1000 cp cap I suppose). ZOS worries about newbie players more and make the game easier for them every patch. But almost every new player who will find out that there are 1000 levels more after 50 will leave the game immediately. How much time does it take to get 690 without tryharding? 6 months?12? I know that it takes a lot of time. How much time will it take to level 1000? 'Aint nobody have time for that'
As for progression, I'd rather farm new gear every 6 months than get stuck in the same old gear with the same dmg output for years.

Wing · February 2018

@pandoraderomanus

see I don't really think ESO is the progression style of game (gear or CP that is)

I mean other then hitting 160 so you can get the best stuff nobody *really* cares.

how many people have you heard say "well I hate ESO but they just increased the CP cap by 30 so I should go grind that out"

nobody

its all about the content and the gameplay, not the grind.

pandoraderomanus · February 2018

Wing wrote: »

@pandoraderomanus

see I don't really think ESO is the progression style of game (gear or CP that is)

I mean other then hitting 160 so you can get the best stuff nobody *really* cares.

how many people have you heard say "well I hate ESO but they just increased the CP cap by 30 so I should go grind that out"

nobody

its all about the content and the gameplay, not the grind.

I referred to people who wanted progression and whined that without CP there's no progression anymore. I personally don't care about that. But IF I had to choose which progression I want I'd prefer real gear progression and not fake CP progression.

I was thinking about making such thread for months and was even thinking what to type here but when the thread actually appeared I can't make clear and easily understandable statements. Sorry for that, even after years of learning language it's still sometimes hard to speak and write clearly.

Regarding the topic, I'm with you guys even if my account gets banned for heresy. CP should be removed!

Aliyavana · February 2018

Cps should be capped and balanced around the 300s and every 50 cps after should reward players with mystery boxes, a crown crate, and transmutation stones so that the player can still have incentive to level

Sauce_Revolution · February 2018

I was against CP from the start, I think a better system would be to introduce new ways to gain skill points and regularly add new skill trees with interesting passives AND active abilities. That way your horizontal progression is the increase in variety you could use for your actives while also getting some niche passives.

Passives could be things like a hunting tree where you gain effects like "Trapper: Deal 10% more damage to enemies that are snared", it's niche and you wouldn't come across it often but if there was a passive like that for 100 different situations, you can cherry pick the ones most relevant to you and eventually start collecting most of them as you gain skill points (which could be rewarded through a veteran level style progression system just without the attribute bonuses after level 50).

I also think that themed damage should be untied from magic and physical, which is exasperated by CP, I miss having the option to use flaming arrows on a bow.

This also stops alts from being able to roflstomp things right from level 1 because their main has 600CP, maybe that way new players will be able to learn how to do dungeons properly instead of getting partied with someone on an alt that's able to smash their way through on their own, taking the challenge so far away from newbies that they never improve until the shock of vet dungeons after they hit cap.

Aliyavana · February 2018

I'm against cps In PvP because it gives players an advantage in PvP in that not everyone has capped cp and thus capped players are able to farm lower cp players with less effort because they spent more time playing. Which is why I like no cp because only gear and skill separate players. If zos gave everyone the same amount of cps to use in PvP then I'd like cp pvp.

Then there is pve elitism, many trial guilds won't even look at you if you are below cp 500s... some even kick in vet dungeons for being below 300s...

Cps should be capped and balanced around the 300s and every 50 cps after should reward players with mystery boxes, a crown crate, and transmutation stones so that the player can still have incentive to level

dsalter · February 2018

my thing would just be halve almost all the CP stars, tho keep really awful ones at full power and swap out anything that boosts damage or defences of any kind with utility.

Inarre · February 2018

I think zos is realizing this and trying to Band-Aid it as we progress. First Band-Aid was the hard cap implementation back in i think wrothgar. Next major Band-Aid was the diminishing returns implemented in morrowind. I imagine as the cap is bumped up there will be other changes that in the end make the power creep less potent.
But you are right. It's still there and it still is damaging.

That said i prefer this compared to other games endgame progression systems which can be far more damaging to balance and alienate new players for more harshly.

LeagueTroll · February 2018

Nice logic, ‘hybrid is core game’. What about no thx, hybrid being meta is too complicated for most players. At least current meta, ppl can hit around 70% of what top players do by just blindly follow meta. No thx, I don’t like bigger skill gap.

LeagueTroll · February 2018

aliyavana wrote: »

I'm against cps In PvP because it gives players an advantage in PvP in that not everyone has capped cp and thus capped players are able to farm lower cp players with less effort because they spent more time playing. Which is why I like no cp because only gear and skill separate players. If zos gave everyone the same amount of cps to use in PvP then I'd like cp pvp.

Then there is pve elitism, many trial guilds won't even look at you if you are below cp 500s... some even kick in vet dungeons for being below 300s...

Cps should be capped and balanced around the 300s and every 50 cps after should reward players with mystery boxes, a crown crate, and transmutation stones so that the player can still have incentive to level

Play no cp pvp? I like sotha sil, but it is often too empty and one sided.

BohnT · February 2018

aliyavana wrote: »

I'm against cps In PvP because it gives players an advantage in PvP in that not everyone has capped cp and thus capped players are able to farm lower cp players with less effort because they spent more time playing. Which is why I like no cp because only gear and skill separate players. If zos gave everyone the same amount of cps to use in PvP then I'd like cp pvp.

Then there is pve elitism, many trial guilds won't even look at you if you are below cp 500s... some even kick in vet dungeons for being below 300s...

Cps should be capped and balanced around the 300s and every 50 cps after should reward players with mystery boxes, a crown crate, and transmutation stones so that the player can still have incentive to level

Coming from someone who wants priority que for Eso+, supports slavery in the game and has to say in every post that Elves are the master race.

Sergykid · February 2018

i don't really feel CP being a problem. It needs to be heavy balanced, not removed.

and y`all wanna say that non-CP campaigns are more balanced and better?

flguy147ub17_ESO · February 2018

pandoraderomanus wrote: »

As I have already said in some another thread, CP system gives fake feeling of progression, dmg basically stays the same and gets nerfed every time because ZOS makes content around some amount of dmg so that you don't oneshot let's say Valkyn Skoria. So I'd vote for CP removal and rebalancing the game around some flat level (50/100/160 if you like, whatever). It will be a lot of work and will not be done today or tomorrow or next week, but they will have to do it eventually (at 1000 cp cap I suppose). ZOS worries about newbie players more and make the game easier for them every patch. But almost every new player who will find out that there are 1000 levels more after 50 will leave the game immediately. How much time does it take to get 690 without tryharding? 6 months?12? I know that it takes a lot of time. How much time will it take to level 1000? 'Aint nobody have time for that'
As for progression, I'd rather farm new gear every 6 months than get stuck in the same old gear with the same dmg output for years.

Said this for a while. The more CP increases the less new player friendly the game becomes. You HAVE to have new players to can a MMO with a healthy population. Starting from scratch now is an absolute nightmare for a new player. 720 CP after level 50 lol. Might as well give your life away. Also new players normally play the through the zones, explore, crafting, etc that a veteran player rolling an alt wont do. A new player doesnt go straight to Skyreach with XP pots with a partner and grind those same mobs over and over again. They will play through the content the majority of time and getting to 720 CP that way is horrific and they will continue to increase CP before they even get to the current cap.

idk · February 2018

Other than overly generalizing OP hasn't said anything. Certainly nothing of substance.

I find it humorous he lumps gear and skills into the same pile when gear does what CP does, essentially. Though there are some things we can get from gear but now tnfrom CP but it works the same way in opposite.

Maybe OP can edit his OP to explain instead of fake generalizing.

ol_BANK_lo · February 2018

davey1107 wrote: »

@wing

I entirely disagree with your premise, which relies on you taking your personal opinions and stating them as absolutes we all have to accept. Because you don’t like CP play doesn’t mean it’s “proven” it’s bad for the game. My counter-arguments would be:

- non-cp has been an abysmal PvP failure on most every server. Non-cp campaigns are empty, and cp campaigns are full. That is all the player feedback they need, really. On my server, when they flipped the cp and non-cp campaigns...which was a stupid stunt...the entire player base moved campaigns, and within 48 hrs everyone was in the new cp campaign. Whether cp is fun or not is moot...there’s no point playing in empty campaigns.

- I originally thought battlegrounds flopped because of non-cp. However, I revise that to say they are so flawed that they stink either way. We won’t know which players prefer until Zos fixes other flaws, like the rng queue, etc.

- you’re not wrong to consider the power creep and how the game has changed. And CPs are partially responsible, for sure. But they aren’t the only element in the equation. Sets and abilities have slowly evolved along with the CP system in order to take into consideration those buffs. When you yank CPs away but leave sets and abilities as-is, all you’re doing is upending the current balance. Some classes benefit hugely, while others suffer. A lot of the fandom behind non-cp are players who know (or suspect) they benefit when it is removed. For example, in non-cp resource management is more crucial, so classes with strong resource return abilities benefit disproportionately to those without. Resistance and tackiness goes down, so builds with strong dps sets benefit disproportionately. Etc.

I’m not opposed to major changes in the game. We eliminated vet ranks, and that was an improvement. We could get along without CPs. But we couldn’t do so without rebalancing every set and ability along with it. And we would need to find something else for lower level players to work toward - the CP system offers a way to get stronger as an end game character. Players probably want something like this so they feel there’s a point to playing.

I don’t personally see Zos wanting to rebalance the game to the extent that removing CPs would require. And it’d be disappointing to me, not because I care that much about CPs, but because it would represent thousands of development hours spent on something that won’t have much of an impact, where they could be spent creating new content.

This ^

Anotherone773 · February 2018

*Morrowind had a good leveling system.
* Leveling got more bland with Oblivion.
* Leveling got even more bland with Skyrim.
* Leveling became purified water in ESO.

Ive gained 90 CP and feel like my character is no better off now than he was at level 49. The only thing im looking forward to is hitting the gear cap at 160. I figure if i hit gear cap then at least i can feel like im progressing by getting better gear than i have now.

I like the idea of One Tamriel. I like being able to move around zones and do things in this zone and this zone without enemies being to strong or to week. But that system has severe drawbacks. One of those drawbacks is you dont level much at all. You could fit all 50 levels plus 690 cp into 50 levels of your standard MMO and it would barely feel like decent character progression.

Progression is important in a game. Lack of progression makes a game stale. The extent of progression in ESO is: new dyes, achievements, and other trinkets. No gear progression when new gear comes out. How can there be? Its been capped at 160 forever. Its a stale system.

But the good news is its not hard to fix, as i said before.

* Convert all CP into 50 new levels.
* New content will have new zones with mobs that have levels, level progression, gear that has progression, and most important a sense that my character is getting somewhere in life.
* All current content stays as One Tamriel.
* When a player above 100 does One Tamriel content they are leveled down to level 100.For all zones above 100 they stay at their level and retain all benefits of that level.
*Remove account wide leveling. Each character has to level up on their own. If you are to lazy to level a character, then to bad?
#MLGA

agegarton · February 2018

I don’t want to see CP abolished and I suspect that those who have been vocal on this thread do NOT speak for the majority of the ESO community. I run four accounts, am in and run several guilds, and I’m pretty social online - I don’t know a single person who wants CPs gone from the game.

The only change I would make is to allow CPs to accrue from Level 1 in parallel with Skill Points and Attribute Points. That would help new players to get into the game and “catch up” to veteran players, and it would address some of the issues associated with rolling a new alt (spending a lot of time in the levelling process that does not contribute to your CP total).

Milvan · February 2018

Wing wrote: »

repost from pts:

the core gameplay, classes, armor, weapons, etc. are all so much weaker then they were years ago, and hybrids are still non existent despite having access to better sets then ever before

skills are far less fun, classes far less unique, lines of skills and passives, racials, ults, everything has been nerfed patch after patch.

why?

because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS has to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.

ZOS

CP is NOT FUN, it is boring numbers on a page, its a spreadsheet, nothing else.

and yet skills that were interesting or could be fun, that do have cool animations or gameplay changing mechanics have continually been beat into the ground patch after patch.

if you removed the CP system characters would be in a substantially weaker state then they were a year ago let alone years ago because so much of the uniqueness and strength of characters has been nerfed and moved into a soulless, uninteresting, boring, power creep of a system known as the champion system.

and until CP is changed or removed, it wont stop, CP caps will increase, and classes, races, weapon lines, armor lines, passives, etc. will continue to be nerfed as a result.

its really quite sad, I rue the day this system was ever implemented T_T

quotes from the thread:

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I don't think your everyday casual gamer understands how much damage the CP system is doing to this game. Damage to class uniqueness, to build uniqueness, to the very way your character feels powerful charging into battle. The champion system has been slowly ruining all those things.

nolangrady wrote: »

Yet another post ZOS will not read or consider as feedback.

Chrysa1is wrote: »

ZOS. Please just listen to the players for once. Pause your crown crate ideas, pause anything that involves milking the cash from our wallets and just listen to what we, the players are saying. CP is problem, we all know it, you know it, so please swallow your pride and just admit it isn't working. The very fact that your nerf skills then raise the CP is proof in itself that you literally are ruining the ''diversity'' that you want, because it forces players to compensate by going for the thing that somewhat replaces what was lost.

misfitmanic · February 2018

Just want to cast my opinion here. Been playing for a couple years now and love the CP system. Instead of hitting "max level" and becoming a god in this game, nearly every time I play there is opportunity to earn EXP and CP, further progressing my character. The day my character can no longer progress/grow is the day I stop playing. Looking forward to dropping another 30 CP into my build with the next patch =]

Alaztor91 · February 2018

Take CP away from PvP, balance the game 100% around PvP, and then use CP to cover weaknesses/enhance strengths/add unique effects/etc for PvE.

PvP players end up with a more ''balanced'' game and PvE players keep their ''progression''.

KanedaSyndrome · February 2018

I kinda have to agree. The core gameplay is suffering in ESO. For me the saving grace is the cosmetics and roleplaying.

The combat system and itemization itself lacks a lot wanting tbh.

Wildcopper · February 2018

CP are what is called horizontal progression, it's MUCH better than adding more levels all the time. Specially in a game with PvP. So I completely disagree with the OP.

Juhasow · February 2018

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Take CP away from PvP, balance the game 100% around PvP, and then use CP to cover weaknesses/enhance strengths/add unique effects/etc for PvE.

PvP players end up with a more ''balanced'' game and PvE players keep their ''progression''.

Worst idea I have ever seen about ballancing the game.

Juju_beans · February 2018

I prefer CP over gear chasing especially since I'm not big with dungeons/trials.
Came from wow where everyone is funneled into dungeons/raids to "progress".

I much prefer the CP system and the passive system. Sure better gear comes from dungeons/trial but crafted/overland gear is pretty close for those of us that don't want to be chasing gear all the time.

As far as pvp though I go into the non CP campaign.

xaraan · February 2018

Well, guess I'll throw my opinion in here as well as someone that has played since before beta, because a lot of folks are laying it on a little thick.

1. There should always be some sort of progression in the game and gear isn't progression. (It's too easy to get, even easier to get in right setups now with in dungeon trading having been added long ago and now transmuting). If you think you should be able to spend a couple weeks and be just as strong as someone that has spent years in the game, then you need to get past the "wanting something for nothing" feeling because it will help you in real life as well.

2. CP isn't killing the game. Bad design/decisions are. There are several very obvious things that can be done to close gaps, help balance, etc. Some of them are happening, as they often do with a patch, but then other changes just cancel those out and will call for more next patch. The game doesn't really move forward in this regard, it just does the whole "the more it changes, the more it stays the same" since launch.

That being said - the original idea for CP would have been great if it had been rolled out. Where you add points in and get a small bonus and the bonuses were separated out more. You could dump a bunch of points into something and end up just having a 5% bonus to fire damage (but not all ele damage) - THAT would have been cool and allowed for more build diversity if you can imagine all the different types of damage and defenses you could work to provide a buff too. And keeping them small bonuses wouldn't make them a necessity, just a little edge.

But the way it was watered down for launch, and then further watered down with MW patch, it doesn't offer any diversity anymore, even in a small way. Every build will have close to the same setup, maybe someone puts a little more here or there, but at this point, they could just apply the "general" buffs everyone takes to the game system and remove it entirely. If they did this, then adding more non-combat "flavor" type perks into a CP like system would be a good way to go. Let us take stuff like the 2% faster horse speed, or harvesting faster, or even very specific combat perks like Opportunist or Unchained. They could add a lot of little interesting perks like this that won't really swing combat, but still offer something for players that keep playing after they are maxed out.

As for the Hybrid build BS. That's never been a thing really. I can think of a couple builds that were kind of hyrbrid-y that performed well, but the BiS builds were still focused on one or the other. About the worst they've done to hurt this is that you used to be able to take advantage of some abilities costing magicka, but still helping you as a stam build because it didn't have a damage component that needed stam/weapon damage, so you didn't have to spend stam on using them. Be nice to see some changes like that, but seeing these complaints since launch - true end game hyrbrid was never an end-game BiS. Players have been complaining about it since the start because they want it to be skyrim and have their character be god at everything like they can in single player games, when truthfully, with a multiplayer game "jack of all trades, master of none" should be how it is. In the end, if hybrid builds were the way to go, then that's what everyone would be doing and you'd have even less diversity than we do now.