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how much more must the core game suffer because of CP?
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
CP is the worst enemy of the hybrid builds. If the damage increase nodes werent separated in Physical/Magickal....
Because I can!2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
here is how it worked back then I played WOW, you quest and do some dungeons to level up, at max level you do normal dungeons to get better gear, this let you do elite ( veteran ) dungeons, you now farmed this set, however this was easy as most did not need the gear, they did the random veteran dungeons for token they could buy raiding level gear.I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
this and grinding reputation think undaunted or mage guild level to buy other good gear.
Add some weekend raiding and you have wow endgame for average players.
I say ESO system is far more open
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
drkfrontiers✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'mma newbee noob, but heres how I would get rid of the CP if it is not working well.
So you have xNUM CP after level 50 right.
Why not introduce new levels after level 50 like Hero levels, which new abilities and skills etc, and level this new skill tree as normal using the acquired CP as the pool
Perhaps unlock new hybrid sub-classes etc too.
But if... stupid, which I suspect it probably is - remember I told you first!!Edited by drkfrontiers on October 24, 2017 1:27PM"One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
CP is the worst enemy of the hybrid builds. If the damage increase nodes werent separated in Physical/Magickal....
The offensive and defensive boosts in the CP system are not tied to specific resource pools. They’re separated by damage types. That means a person building a hybrid character is able to put points into the specific damage types they want to boost without having to take their primary resource pool into account.
The main problem for hybrid builds has always been because magicka and stamina abilities are tied directly to weapon and spell damage, and weapon and spell damage are linked to staves or non-staves. It’s not caused by the CP system though.1 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You do know this will not be done by them right. MW was the big lesson there, we were all happy. Well, most of us, then heavy attack mode and everything became soooo slow.
Natch Potes are scary now. More gets taken away while the servers still suck. Imo I think the servers are ruining the game more then anything else.
3 -
Chrysa1is✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS. Please just listen to the players for once. Pause your crown crate ideas, pause anything that involves milking the cash from our wallets and just listen to what we, the players are saying. CP is problem, we all know it, you know it, so please swallow your pride and just admit it isn't working. The very fact that your nerf skills then raise the CP is proof in itself that you literally are ruining the ''diversity'' that you want, because it forces players to compensate by going for the thing that somewhat replaces what was lost. Everyone will always go for what makes their build strong for whatever they do, be it PvE or PvP.
New players pretty much enter a game that is not as good as it was before, during the Veteran Rank days (Which was beautiful), and they will never know how good it was. So why would it matter if you removed CP? We had to adapt when you introduced it, so they can adapt if you remove it. Why give them the empty shell of the game when you can make it how it used to be some years ago? I've been playing since day one on XB1, and the game is now merely a shadow of it's former self (BEEN DYING TO USE THAT LINE MY WHOLE LIFE LOL). Bring back the glory days, and stop milking the cash from our wallets. We want fresh and fun gameplay.Edited by Chrysa1is on October 24, 2017 2:15PM0 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭they should've just gone with v18, v20, etc. look at how c/p has 'evolved' since it's original inception; imo, it's really not been for the better.
I miss VR ranks for the most part. Made grinding alts tougher, but everything seems off with CP. Especially in PVP. CP augmenting for maximum cheese.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭repost from pts:
the core gameplay, classes, armor, weapons, etc. are all so much weaker then they were years ago, and hybrids are still non existent despite having access to better sets then ever before
skills are far less fun, classes far less unique, lines of skills and passives, racials, ults, everything has been nerfed patch after patch.
why?
because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS has to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.
ZOS
CP is NOT FUN, it is boring numbers on a page, there are no skills in it, no flashy graphics or gameplay changing mechanics, just boring, flat, power, nothing else.
and yet skills that were interesting or could be fun, that do have cool animations or gameplay changing mechanics have continually been beat into the ground patch after patch.
CP are by far NOT the root of all those evils.
Also, while you may think numbers are boring (i agree BTW) the history works against your claims.
look at what happened with morrowind when the CP sustain was cut out along with other changes!? That was what cut down so much more on class skill and skill use in general. The "get a % or two more DPS by heavy/light meta came into effect and all those folks ran for the numbers - not the CP numbers - but the heavy/light numbers and fewer skills get re-used etc.
Given the choice, the player base at large or at least in the realm of "results matter" went to the numbers over the cool skills and their fun animations in a hot second.
Many of the changes that have been made - up or down - in skills and sets have been to address specific issues and imbalances. PROC sets lost crits then some got turned into lower burst - those are targetted changes not whole sale reductions in gear set capabilities. matter of fact, quite a few got raised recently - across the board upt-cisk on sets values for several key elements.
Maybe it seems to you that everything gets nerfed cuz stuff you were using got nerfed but it has not been an overall wholesale pattern to reduce gear/class/skill capabilities to offset gradual increase in Cp values.
matter of fact, at this point with the major diminishing returns the gains from each new ~10CP per month is quite trivial for anyone at the cap.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."2 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »
I don't think your everyday casual gamer understands how much damage the CP system is doing to this game. Damage to class uniqueness, to build uniqueness, to the very way your character feels powerful charging into battle. The champion system has been slowly ruining all those things.
Class uniqueness - i find being able to tailor my class more to my liking thru CP to be a plus, not a minus.
Build uniqueness - Cp add the ability to shift the focus of your build significantly - used to be even more before Morrowind - and so any given build can be as unique as you want.
Remove Cp and you have fewer options, not more.
CAVEAT: Obviously for any given role-goal-combo etc if you set your overall goal to one aspect - say sustain DPS vs bosses - then you will limit greatly your "available options" for best results. But removing choices you can make does not change that one bit.
But honestly - since it seems like "class uniqueness" is an opposition to "build uniqueness" (fewer ways to change your class means fewer builds to optimize and so more copycat bandwagonning) I think you may have just complained that Cp both reduces and increases diversity at the same time.
Hard to say.
To me, more decisions about character performance and focus made by the player rather than by ZOS at "packaging" is a good thing for my variety of play.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
The game is dumbed down because of CP -- there's no gameplay to be found in a menu that's only a glorified stat spreadsheet.
1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
CP is the worst enemy of the hybrid builds. If the damage increase nodes werent separated in Physical/Magickal....
That is straight forward incorrect. If CP's are the worst enemie of hybrid builds why then hybrid builds in non CP campaigns are not existing ? Actually diminishing returns present in CP's system is something that should help hybrid idea.
The real enemies of hybrid builds and the reasons why we dont have hybrids are the way how damage , shields and heals are scaling and lack of soft caps on statistics values. That makes pointless to split between magicka and stamina connected statistics over investing into one group.2 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
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Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake3 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Thanks for re-posting this in the main discussion section. This needs more visibility.
I don't think your everyday casual gamer understands how much damage the CP system is doing to this game. Damage to class uniqueness, to build uniqueness, to the very way your character feels powerful charging into battle. The champion system has been slowly ruining all those things.
The controls have to go somewhere. If you have unlimited resources, no cooldowns, and raw damage multipliers, you have to nerf the skills themselves. As @Wing pointed out. Skills are fun. Numbers are boring. Why are we sacrificing skills, abilities, and sets that make our characters feel awesome in battle for a boring vertical progression treadmill?
@DeanTheCat pointed this out back in September 2015 I've had his post linked in my signature since then for all the good that has done.
The champion system must be destroyed for the good of this game. It is killing the fun of getting new gear. Killing theorycrafting, killing class identity, and choking the very life out of this game.
It is time for a group of heroes to come together and make a blood oath vowing to destroy the champion system, or get banned in the process.
For years we have sat by and watched as the champion system has ravages our gear, our class skills, our very identity. It is time to make a stand.
Bet you any ammount of money that if CP is removed, classes just wont be buffed.4 -
huschdeguddzje✭✭✭✭The worst thing to come from cp is that stam dk was turned from a mighty fire breathing beast to a poisonous frog.3
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
CP is the worst enemy of the hybrid builds. If the damage increase nodes werent separated in Physical/Magickal....
That is straight forward incorrect. If CP's are the worst enemie of hybrid builds why then hybrid builds in non CP campaigns are not existing ? Actually diminishing returns present in CP's system is something that should help hybrid idea.
The real enemies of hybrid builds and the reasons why we dont have hybrids are the way how damage , shields and heals are scaling and lack of soft caps on statistics values. That makes pointless to split between magicka and stamina connected statistics over investing into one group.
Everyone has an opinion. But in non CP I can use whatever ultimate I want and my damage will not be reduced because i didnt put points in specific CP nodes.Because I can!1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.
I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.
I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.
I agree with this. When I make a new build, I spend just as much time theory-crafting the CP as I do the gear. It's fun!
OP is just the latest in a long line of hysterical complainers who irrationally hate the Champion System. They say CP is ruining the game without offering any evidence that the game is "ruined" in the eyes of any significant number of players. The fact is that CP is simply a system of grinding XP to level up stats. ALL MMOs have systems like this, and it's really no big deal.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE4 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭I disagree. CP has diminishing returns. The more CP the lesser it really mean. You said we don't have hybrid because of CP system, but because of diminishing returns, it will come to a point when putting more CP into a star would gain so little, better put it in something else which help hybrid build. The MAIN problem hybrid build cannot work is not because of CP points, but because of the way damage and heal scale of magic/stam pool, spell/weapon damage and crit.1 -
Lynnessa✭✭✭✭TheDarkShadow wrote: »I disagree. CP has diminishing returns. The more CP the lesser it really mean. You said we don't have hybrid because of CP system, but because of diminishing returns, it will come to a point when putting more CP into a star would gain so little, better put it in something else which help hybrid build. The MAIN problem hybrid build cannot work is not because of CP points, but because of the way damage and heal scale of magic/stam pool, spell/weapon damage and crit.
Disagree, hybrid builds work in no-CP instances but nowhere else. And by "work", I mean allow for enough damage to actually do things. Hybrids used to work back when stats were softcapped, but that was replaced by CP.
I don't feel very strongly about CP one way or the other, but if the diminishing returns mean that everything will eventually be, *ahem*, softcapped, why is it something we are supposed to spend time on?
Edited by Lynnessa on February 3, 2018 2:23PM0 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheDarkShadow wrote: »I disagree. CP has diminishing returns. The more CP the lesser it really mean. You said we don't have hybrid because of CP system, but because of diminishing returns, it will come to a point when putting more CP into a star would gain so little, better put it in something else which help hybrid build. The MAIN problem hybrid build cannot work is not because of CP points, but because of the way damage and heal scale of magic/stam pool, spell/weapon damage and crit.
Disagree, hybrid builds work in no-CP instances but nowhere else. And by "work", I mean allow for enough damage to actually do things. Hybrids used to work back when stats were softcapped, but that was replaced by CP.
I don't feel very strongly about CP one way or the other, but if the diminishing returns mean that everything will eventually be, *ahem*, softcapped, why is it something we are supposed to spend time on?
Because we don't have enough CP points build hybrid yet. But it will get there.0 -
Gothlander✭✭✭✭I agree. The champion point system is boring. Need to be more creative than that.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
TESO needs a wardrobe system badly. Something similar to WoW's tmog system would make this game one of the best mmorpg out there!1 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CP > Gear treadmill, sorry. If there’s no proper sense of progression people leave or are generally encouraged to be terrible (see the cluster%}k that are GW2’s raids lol—it’s like watching hampsters play ping pong).
I think itemization needs an overhaul before a CP rework is ever considered. 99% of the sets in the game are unattractive to useless. That’s ESOs biggest “progression” problem atm.Edited by Peekachu99 on February 3, 2018 2:32PM3 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭repost from pts:
the core gameplay, classes, armor, weapons, etc. are all so much weaker then they were years ago, and hybrids are still non existent despite having access to better sets then ever before
skills are far less fun, classes far less unique, lines of skills and passives, racials, ults, everything has been nerfed patch after patch.
why?
because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS has to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.
ZOS
CP is NOT FUN, it is boring numbers on a page, there are no skills in it, no flashy graphics or gameplay changing mechanics, just boring, flat, power, nothing else.
and yet skills that were interesting or could be fun, that do have cool animations or gameplay changing mechanics have continually been beat into the ground patch after patch.
if you removed the CP system characters would be in a substantially weaker state then they were a year ago let alone years ago because so much of the uniqueness and strength of characters has been nerfed and moved into a soulless, uninteresting, boring, power creep of a system known as the champion system.
and until CP is changed or removed, it wont stop, CP caps will increase, and classes, races, weapon lines, armor lines, passives, etc. will continue to be nerfed as a result.
its really quite sad, I rue the day this system was ever implemented T_T
holy crap ive been saying its a horrible half baked AA system from the start. EQ2 a game 13 years old does it better then this. i think the primary issue is Frior wants a online RPG not a MMO. it was a lazy attempt at extending the life of a end game that was already way to thin0 -
klowdy1✭✭✭✭✭I think the one tamriel update was worse for the game. How is it i gained a level, but got weaker due to gear stats dropping. Level means very little at this point.
CP doesn't bother me so much. I don't see the difference if two years ago an ability crit for 10k, and now at CP cap it hits for 10k. I would like to see something like champion levels being much harder to get, but giving 10 points instead. I think people would feel the upgrade a bit more that way.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The Core game is dead.
It has been replaced with the Champion system.
If you simply remove the Champion system, we'll just be left with a dead Core game.
Champion system needs to be replaced with something. Just getting rid of it would mean we are all stuck playing overnerfed and neutered classes with in-game mechanics designed fro a system that no longer existed.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Motherball✭✭✭✭I would like to see something like champion levels being much harder to get, but giving 10 points instead. I think people would feel the upgrade a bit more that way.
This is a good idea. I’m not a big progression type player, but gaining 1 cp every 20 min and having 1 cp do almost nothing by itself seemed rather silly to me, to the point I would bank 10 cp before comitting just to see any significant difference, even if just the number got bigger with miniscule in-game difference. Maybe some players just enjoy hearing that DING more often.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »How much more must the core game suffer because of PVP?
FTFY
signedEdited by Facefister on February 3, 2018 4:31PM0 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭remove cp cap
NO! @Lynnessa asked why we have to wait for too long to have enough CP for hybrid build? Well, because if ZOS remove CP cap, within 1 month there will be 1-2% players get max 3600 CP. 6 months later, 5%-10% of player base will probably reach it. The rest of casual players, the 90% will take years. If kicking low CP players already is a problem now, it will only get worst if CP cap was removed. Many newbie come to the game later will just give up. On the other hand, the 10% will complain "there is nothing else to play".
It would be extremly hard to make contents for a game with such wide range of power. If it's easy enough for the 90%, the 10% will just breeze thru it, get even stronger with items and perhasp richer selling stuffs. Balance in PvP would even harder.
Would you like to PvP with people have x10 more CP than you? Clearly not. Not only they can build hybrid, their stats pools also bigger. ZOS will have to make separate campaigns for different CP range. But if there are only 100 players sign in that campaign, a few dozens online in prime time at most, it not only cost ZOS more money to upkeep the servers, it also harder to find proper action.
Sum up: CP cap is a catch up mechanic so that casual and new players can "get there" before the next cap rise. It make balance and design contents easier and make the game last longer. The system is not perfect. Nothing is. But without it, things could be even worse.Edited by TheDarkShadow on February 3, 2018 4:48PM1
